Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Cenes and Cnome

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Eric Werner of the University of Oxford published a blog piece in PLOS which I have liberally edited below. I think it is an important development in thinking about design in biology.

“The chimp really started people wondering if genes can account for the difference between humans and animals. Since the genes of chimps and humans are 98.8% identical, the differences between chimps and humans cannot be the result of the information in those few different genes.

Humans, chimps and mice are very different even if made of the many of the same parts. The information for construction and structure lies not in the information that describes the parts, rather in an architectural plan that is used by agents to construct the organism.

The information resides in the genome, but not in the genes. It is in the network architecture that consists of coding and non coding areas that determine the timing and spatial patterning of cells that ultimately results in the development of the organism.

Many traits are the result of the mutation of genes. However most genes are instructions for building parts so a mutation in a gene results in a change of a part not the overall architecture. The information for the form is not in the parts-genes. It is in the control architecture, the regulatory networks of control units, most likely contained in the vast non parts coding regions of the genome.

Let’s call these control networks cenes for control genes. Cenes can be very basic units of control, such as protein activators, or cell directives. They can combine to form networks of cooperative, conditional control. These can be linked to form yet larger cenes. The overall control network that guides the development of an organism will be called its cenome.

Many biologists have consistently confused the genes used to build the parts with the map used to build the organism. This mistake is behind the confusion about what makes us different from mice, chimps, flies or worms when our genes are similar and the gene number is very close.

The number of genes has little to do with the complexity of the organism or the constitutive information required to form the organism. The true measure of complexity of an organism is the length of the minimal genome that is necessary to construct the organism.

The genome contains the program of development, the cenome, as well as the instructions for making the parts used to build the organism.

There are genes for parts and there are genes (or cenes) that function as commands. They regulate the use of the parts-genes and they meta-regulate other command genes.

Genetic changes are not the cause of our humanity. Genes are parts and regulators they contain no information that is relevant to our humanity.

Genetics is to a large extent irrelevant to questions of our nature and of our evolution. Genes are as essential as bricks to a building yet neither genes nor bricks have any information that would help in developing an organism or building a house.

This will not be the century of the gene. It will be the century of the genome and its regulatory architecture, the cenome.”

Comments
Very well said TM, and as for your comments above at point 2. LOLOLOL! What excellent and sarcastically humorous illustrations. tragicmishap: "If body plans are at least in part determined by physical accidents during development instead of genetic accidents, then all it would take to cause a heritable change in body plan is a bad fall during pregnancy. In fact, evolutionists could use this argument to completely circumvent the need for the correct mutations." Quite true... I had not thought of that. So now what do I do??? I suppose I must leave this issue open to research, and I must go back to my conclusion @33: "I would venture to say that the body plan information is present somewhere in the genome but on another level that may incorporate gene coding regions or parts of them as well. Go find it!"Lock
August 22, 2010
August
08
Aug
22
22
2010
11:37 AM
11
11
37
AM
PDT
Lock , here is my blog where you can leave a note to contact me: Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis - paper http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.htmlbornagain77
August 22, 2010
August
08
Aug
22
22
2010
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PDT
Thanks for that reference, Lock. I went back and reread it. 1. This argument would only really be needed by ID if its primary argument that Darwinian evolution cannot produce the required mutations within "realistic probability limits" fails. I don't see ID ever having to retreat from that argument. 2. Every time this subject comes up it seems to me such an obvious truth as to be totally uninteresting. It just seems to me a bit like saying my butt is flat instead of rounded because it's receiving higher order information from the seat of my chair. Or Luke Skywalker's right hand is missing because his body plan received higher order information from a lightsaber. 3. I don't think that this is some kind of silver bullet argument against Darwinian evolution anyway. All they will say is that well the giraffe's neck is longer because it got stretched out in the birth canal causing a heritable change. Obviously that particular example is a bad one, but you get my drift. If body plans are at least in part determined by physical accidents during development instead of genetic accidents, then all it would take to cause a heritable change in body plan is a bad fall during pregnancy. In fact, evolutionists could use this argument to completely circumvent the need for the correct mutations. At least ID's probability arguments can be quantified. I think it far better we engage them on the bed they've already made, because it's increasingly uncomfortable to sleep in.tragic mishap
August 22, 2010
August
08
Aug
22
22
2010
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT
Thanks... Another great video! You are really plugged in; ripe with resources! I flrted with new age myself at one time. And it is a good reminder that really, the only philosphers that maintains this outdated notion of reductionism are the materialists. Its interesting that on that count, if concensus is truely hallowed as they often claim, then they are in a real pickle. Concensus is powerful, and sometimes rightly so. More will convert, and by way of evidence and reason (science). It's only a matter of time before their game collapses, but this video is a reminder to those of us who are Christians, that the new spirituality (which will concede many truths) will not be one we advocate fully. The more truth a lie has, the more powerful it is. And mankind's resistance to Christ will remain. As with the information in biology, a few right, true, and powerful chapters put in the wrong book can be devestating. As we see with the dogmatic obstinance of materialism, let us remember that there is only one God whom mankind refuses to follow consistently. Just about any other philosphy will be sought first. Christ is most often our last resort. And he was my last resort. But I am grateful He found me. Luke 19:12,14 "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 14 "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' Recognizing what these guys talk about in your video is only a start. I have little doubt ID will overcome, but its not the end game. In science, I think it is reasonable to fear the future spritual pantheistic foundation more than the current materialistic one. Secular humanism and pantheism are already the same thing in many ways. The main difference, is this reductionism. So, sometimes I question the value of these debates, because as George Macdonald warned, "To try to explain truth to him who loves it not, is but to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation." ( The Curate's Awakening ) (ps. ba77 is there a way to contact you? FB perhaps?)Lock
August 22, 2010
August
08
Aug
22
22
2010
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
Lock, though this is a bit 'new age' in its outlook, I did find this video interesting: The Case Against Molecular Reductionism - Sheldrake & Lipton - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4899469 The entire video may be viewed here: Rupert Sheldrake and Bruce Lipton - A Quest Beyond the Limits of the Ordinary (Part 1 of 10) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yurzNF_Z3ecbornagain77
August 22, 2010
August
08
Aug
22
22
2010
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
I had to get out my copy of Signature in the Cell and refresh my aching memory. After re-reading the relevant pages concerning what I have said here, I would modify my posiiton, or at least take a less zealous stance on body plan info being present and undiscovered in the DNA. I had forgotten that there is extragenomic information in the 3 dimensional structure of pre-existing generations that affects (or directs) body plan developement. It takes some pages to put into perspective, so... Rather than opine about matters I am still grappling with myself, I will just refer everyone to the Epilogue / pages 467-477, starting at 2. Hierarchical Arrangement, Optimized for Access and RetrievalLock
August 22, 2010
August
08
Aug
22
22
2010
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
I couldn't agree more, I was only pointing out that either answer is beneficial and interesting. And I was being sarcastic because no amount of evidence, inference or explanatory power seems to satisfy some on the Evo side of the issues. One nice thing about where we stand... we want to know the truth.Lock
August 21, 2010
August
08
Aug
21
21
2010
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PDT
In at least one way, a no answer is far more interesting to an ID advocate like myself. But a yes answer leads to great predictive power and the hallowed ‘usefulness’ that so many ‘scientists’ worship.
ID "advocates" are scientists. If we lay claim to be the heirs of the scientific revolution, to men like Newton, then we have to start acting like it. We have to take responsibility for the future of science and stop acting like whiny subversive losers acting out our own insecure faith.tragic mishap
August 21, 2010
August
08
Aug
21
21
2010
10:46 AM
10
10
46
AM
PDT
InVivoVeritas @9... THAT's what I'm talkin about! maybe I should have just read the whole thread :)Lock
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
09:22 PM
9
09
22
PM
PDT
@gpuccio #49 First of all, thanks for taking the time to review the paper. I found another paper paper published in Cell on February 5, 2010 related to prions and long term memory. This time, they studied, slugs (of all things) and how they "twist" the protein to lock in a memory. I don't know how one can study slugs and make a jump to human's, but the paper suggests that this mechanism could possibly be used by humans as well. Presumably, since this particular protein (CPEB - cytoplasmic polyadenylation element binding protein) behaves similar to a prion but aren't "infectious" with their folding. Perhaps these folds are replicated to other prion like structures elsewhere to form a sort of redundant storage of memories. It's a thought, but not too fanciful I should think; considering what we do know about prions and prion-like behavior and how injuries to the brain don't necessarily delete memories. Another source, a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Blog (I know...not scholarly, but informative none-the-less) ruminates as I have on the involvement of prions in forming long term memories. Just for grins and entertainment, let's assume protein folding was responsible for long-term memory storage. Wouldn't it be reasonable to estimate the storage capacity of the brain based upon the number of proteins available for folding?ciphertext
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
09:18 PM
9
09
18
PM
PDT
What does everyone think about "mental effort?" I mean, think about when you are trying to remember something. It feels like you are lifting mental weights, especially when you are going on too-little sleep, to recall something. Does the brain actually start working harder to locate the memory? Or do you just get frustrated and interpret that as effort?Collin
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
06:14 PM
6
06
14
PM
PDT
kairosfocus @37 F/N: Lock, 500 4-state elements and 1,000 2-state ones have the same configuration space size, 1.07 *10^301. G I think I understand that well enough and perhaps I am out of my depth here, but I am looking at the possibilities in terms of hierarchical complexity. I believe Meyer touched on it in 'Signature in the Cell'. He spoke of the hierarchical complexity of the English langauge. The digits can make words, and the words sentances, and the sentances paragraphs, and the paragraphs chapters, and the chapters a book. I took this to be at least part of the point of the OP article though in the smaller context of differences in species. And that certainly is an excellent application of the concept. Certainly I am not the only one who thought of it or is making this point. The point being that just because we see no sign of bodyplan in the genome (or cnome etc), we may find and should look for an even deeper layer of complexity that stores it. Perhaps it is merely there intrinsically with each genome. That would leave the question of the initial origin and design at least in my mind being far more reasonable a scientific conclusion. I am not making the case that a quaternary code is more efficient than binary even in terms of space or volume, but rather that it allows for deeper hierarchcical complexity than binary. But I am not by any means an expert on information, so perhaps this is a counterintuitive mistake on my part? Its just a thought. And it seems to me an obvious one. Whether there is body plan information in the genome somewhere I do not know. But as Gonsalez said regarding the question of life elswhere in the galaxy, the answer, whether yes or no, is interesting. In at least one way, a no answer is far more interesting to an ID advocate like myself. But a yes answer leads to great predictive power and the hallowed 'usefulness' that so many 'scientists' worship. And the more levels of complexity the better for a design inference (as if there are not enough already). Has the question of whether body plan information exists in the genome really been determined sufficiently?Lock
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
06:13 PM
6
06
13
PM
PDT
The ability to prevent or simply influence memory recall has no bearing on the actual storage of memories. The memories can be there, but somehow it becomes impossible or difficult to retrieve certain memories. Does anyone know what the experimental approach would be to conclude successful prevention of information storage? Why I ask this is because it is clear that claiming that a specific memory has been prevented from being stored, are always subject to the possibility that what actually happened was a prevention of recall and not storage per se.mullerpr
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
03:46 PM
3
03
46
PM
PDT
P.S. I consider indeterministic quantum phenomenon as "not-so-physical" by nature.mullerpr
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
gpuccio, I think that an accurate study into the information storage requirement to account for human long term memory (conscious and unconscious) will be very enlightening. Regardless of the physical nature or not-so-physical nature of such a storage mechanism, my intuition tells me that it could contribute greatly to science. Wasting time on non-starter hypotheses about human long term memory should be avoided, by embracing the fact that there IS something beyond the daftly confounded dogma of materialism.mullerpr
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
03:28 PM
3
03
28
PM
PDT
ciphertext: I have looked at the abstract of that paper. First of all we have to be cautious with that kind of information, but let's assume that what the paper says is correct and significant. Anyway, it just means that that protein is implied in the formation or in the working of those parts of the brain which are necessary for long term memory. That does not mean that the protein stores memory data. When I say that we don't know how the brain stores data, I don't mean that we don't know anything about the areas in the brain which are necessary for memory to work correctly. I just mean that we don't know how the data themselves are stored, and where. So, it is perfectly possible that a localized ledion will cause the loss of a function, such as short or long term memory. But what we do not observe is that a localized damage cuases the loss of some specific data, and not of others, as though those data were phisically stored in those neurons. That's why I say that we don't see a true mass memory, but rather a dynamic, olistic memory. As for proteins to be memory storage, it's not impossible, but it does not seem as an easy solution. Personally, I don't think that both DNA and proteins can store memory in their gross primary structure (the sequence of nucleotides or aminoacids). But they could do that at other levels (quantum levele remaining an extreme possibility).gpuccio
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
mullerpr: You are very right. And that makes me consider that probably the amount of long term memory stored in our subconscious mind (whatever it is) is much greater than what we usually are able to retrieve. Many experiences, like for instance the state of hypnosis, demonstrate that in particular conditions we can access memories which seem usually lost, but that must be there, somewhere, somehow.gpuccio
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
Since the genes of chimps and humans are 98.8% identical, the differences between chimps and humans cannot be the result of the information in those few different genes.
Some similar genes may be 98.5% identical, but no one knows the over-all similarities between the two genomes.Joseph
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
02:46 PM
2
02
46
PM
PDT
Also, his phrase "no reason" is obviously based on a theological not scientific argument.Collin
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
02:43 PM
2
02
43
PM
PDT
Bornagain, Thanks for those references. My friend a biology student and atheist was telling me that there's "no reason" for whales to have lungs. They are obviously just mammals who have evolved. A designer would have just taken a design for gills (which he says are more efficient) and plugged them into whales. But we don't see that, we see a nested hierarchy. I thought about that and came up with 2 objections. The first is that one that you said John Sanford came up with, polyconstrained complexity (?) or whatever. Gills cannot just easily be shoved into an animal built around lungs. And 2, lungs may be less efficient but maybe they still draw more oxygen at one time, which would support the whales large brain.Collin
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
Collin:
One of the most convincing arguments of evolutionists, in my mind, is the nested hierarchy argument.
Evolution does not predict a nested hierarchy. Eric Knox "The use of hierarchies as organizational models in systematics", Biological Journal of the Linnean Society (1998), 63: 1–49.
Regardless of what is eventually learned about the evolution of Clarkia/Heterogaura, the complex nature of evolutionary processes yields patterns that are more complex than can be represented by the simple hierarchical models of either monophyletic systematization or Linnaean classification.
Nested hierarchies are completely an artificial construct- OUR way of catergorizing things.Joseph
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
02:41 PM
2
02
41
PM
PDT
So, the brain would seem like a PC with RAM only, and no mass memory. TRhat’s why the concept of lomg term memory becomes specially difficult to explain. -- gpuccio
I wonder if the storage medium is folded proteins? I'm not a biologist, and google can be a dangerous thing, I found a paper from the journal Human Molecular Genetics indicating a prion gene was associated with human long-term memory. I've always understood prions to be "bad" things in that they are vectors for invariably fatal neuro-degenerative disorders. Prions would be an example of data corruption, I should think. But, assuming the paper points in the correct direction, perhaps protein folding is the implementor of memory functions such as "read" and "write"?ciphertext
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
We have to consider the success of information theory when we consider any information storage. It will be naive to claim that we do not know how much information can be stored in a physical storage system like the DNA. The amount of pattern forming possibilities in the DNA can be inferred, which means we can calculate how much memory can possibly be stored in the DNA. When we look for long term memory in the brain it becomes clear that the pattern forming capabilities of synapses are highly unstable leaving us with a great problem. No wonder that some honest scientists would like to consider the far more stable DNA structures to possibly account for long term memory. However this "DNA long term memory" proposal cause a lot of problems. Just try to think of a possible mechanism to store and retrieve long term memory from a DNA storage system... I am not saying long term memory is not physical, what I am saying is that the brain does not look like the type of mechanism that store "mass memory", like gpuccio rightly points out. If we consider an analysis of how our long term memory present itself in our conscious acts then it is clear that we do have some kind of "mass storage" capability ...at least to account for the uniform nature of our consciousness. A personal experience of long term memory came into play when we (my family) recently were robbed of all our digital family photos and videos. It is a great loss and I was very upset since our daughter is only 15 moths old and we lost all the pictures of her birth. In this upset state I started to push my memory of the events to the extent that I can almost start drawing pictures of how she looked when she was born, when she first opened her eyes, when her mom held her for the first time... The clarity of these memory were almost scary, but it just underpin the awesome reality of human long term memory.mullerpr
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT
ciphertext: As far as I know, nobody has really any idea of how memory is encoded. That's exactly the problem. What we know would suggest that there is no traditional "mass memory" in the brain: that is, we cannot identify any specific part of the brain, or any specific neurons, which carry the memory of some specific data. That's why all the models for memory (and believe me, they are really vague) tend to refere to some dynamic system. So, the brain would seem like a PC with RAM only, and no mass memory. TRhat's why the concept of lomg term memory becomes specially difficult to explain.gpuccio
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
You can't of course believe that long term memory requires a spirit. Otherwise I should probably be sharing the gospel with my desktop right now.tragic mishap
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
Interesting question cipher.
Has this “little problem” with materialistic long term memory disappeared? If it did what is the solution?
I have no idea. However since computers have "long-term memory" it seems quite safe to suggest that brains could have that capability as well, both being intelligently designed, physical machines.tragic mishap
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
08:19 AM
8
08
19
AM
PDT
Has anybody determined if human memory storage is standardized between instances of human beings? In other words, if I were to take a CD ROM for example, I could duplicate the CD-ROM contents quite easily (leaving aside the various copy protection schemes employed by the creator of the data) to another CD-ROM or other storage medium.This is due in large part because the technology was designed so that the data could be easily transferred and consumed by the masses of electronic components that need access to the data. Things such as storage geometry on the storage medium (number of sectors, pits, lands, etc...), data storage format (DVD+, DVD-, Blue Ray, Red Book (audio), etc...), etc... were all standardized.While I see that the technology such as the reading and writing components are standardized (yet you cannot easily replace them due to tissue rejection), I don't know that the same can be said for the geometry of the memories. Certainly the memory storage has been determined to be an etched pathway in our brain material (similar to how optical media is etched by a laser), but do we know if the etching is transferable? Assuming the etching is transferable, do we know that the encodings are the same between humans or are the encodings as unique to each set of brains as each human is unique to their environment?ciphertext
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
F/N: Lock, 500 4-state elements and 1,000 2-state ones have the same configuration space size, 1.07 *10^301. Gkairosfocus
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
08:04 AM
8
08
04
AM
PDT
Another quote from the New Scientist article I discussed above: You must remember this
But a handful of researchers has recently suggested a new and radical idea. Perhaps long-lasting memories are inscribed not into synapse patterns but into our brain's DNA. Perhaps, say the researchers, we create gene-like codes in which we permanently record the blueprints of our memories. It's not that hard to hang onto a memory for a short time—where you last saw your keys, say, or where you parked your car. To strengthen the network temporarily, all you apparently need is a more plentiful supply of messenger chemicals poised at key synapses, ready to transmit the prepared signal. Trouble is, this effect doesn't last long. For a more permanent memory, your brain needs something substantially more stable.
Has this "little problem" with materialistic long term memory disappeared? If it did what is the solution?mullerpr
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
07:09 AM
7
07
09
AM
PDT
Thank you for talking sense Lock. I am a Christian and I believe that human beings have spirits. The one thing that a physical system cannot ever explain is free will. That is the one thing that must be spiritual. And when you think about it, the ability to make a choice is the one thing that matters eternally. Choosing between following God or not is the one thing that matters if you are a Christian. There is no need to believe that memory, short or longterm, must be a spiritual phenomena. In fact I think it highly probable it's a physical thing.tragic mishap
August 20, 2010
August
08
Aug
20
20
2010
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply