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Can a Darwinist consistently condemn a con man who couldn’t have done otherwise?

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Some readers will recall the case of the Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, former dean of the School of Social and Behavioral Sciences at Tilburg University, who was publicly exposed in 2011 for faking his data in several dozen published papers about human behavior that had made him famous – and who, after being caught, decided to publish a book about his con, detailing how and why he’d done it. Uncommon Descent ran a story about the case (see here), and another story about how it was exposed (see here), while James Barham discussed it at further length over on his blog, TheBestSchools.org, in an article entitled, More Scientists Behaving Badly. A story about the case appeared in The New York Times last week: The Mind of a Con Man, by Yudhijit Bhattacharjee.

The case has become something of an academic scandal, not merely because of the fraud perpetrated by Stapel, who doctored his data in at least 55 of his own papers, as well as 10 Ph.D. dissertations written by his students, but also because it cast the entire field of behavioral psychology into disrepute. In their final report on the case at the end of November 2011, the universities of Groningen and Tilburg found that “a general culture of careless, selective and uncritical handling of research and data” was what enabled Stapel’s fraud to go undetected for so long. While the report laid the blame for the fraud solely at Stapel’s feet and exonerated his students of any wrongdoing, it went on to blame Stapel’s peers, journal editors and reviewers of the field’s top journals for letting him get away with his fakery for a period of several years.

During his interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee for The New York Times, Stapel recalled his first fateful decision to doctor his research data, after a psychology experiment that went badly wrong:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

… It took a few hours of trial and error, spread out over a few days, to get the data just right.

He said he felt both terrible and relieved. The results were published in The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in 2004. “I realized — hey, we can do this,” he told me.

Stapel also professed contrition for his past misdeeds in the interview, as he attempted to explain his motivations for committing academic fraud:

Right away Stapel expressed what sounded like heartfelt remorse for what he did to his students. “I have fallen from my throne — I am on the floor,” he said, waving at the ground. “I am in therapy every week. I hate myself.”…

Stapel did not deny that his deceit was driven by ambition. But it was more complicated than that, he told me. He insisted that he loved social psychology but had been frustrated by the messiness of experimental data, which rarely led to clear conclusions. His lifelong obsession with elegance and order, he said, led him to concoct sexy results that journals found attractive. “It was a quest for aesthetics, for beauty — instead of the truth,” he said. He described his behavior as an addiction that drove him to carry out acts of increasingly daring fraud, like a junkie seeking a bigger and better high.

For my part, I hope that Stapel is as sorry as he declared himself to be, in his interview, and I have no wish to accuse him of insincerity. God alone knows the true state of his mind; God alone can judge him. It seems, however, that many people have questioned the sincerity of Stapel’s apology, following his recent decision to publish a book (called Derailed) describing how he pulled off his con. Among the cynics is Professor Jerry Coyne, who, in a recent post (April 27, 2013) over at Why Evolution is True, wrote:

He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught…

Stapel gives a lot of excuses but his apologies sound lame…

I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel here. I think his students are also at fault: how can you put your name on a Ph.D. dissertation if you didn’t collect the data yourself?

…Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.

Coyne on why hard determinism entails that we are not morally responsible for our actions

What I find curious about Professor Coyne’s comments is that he blames Stapel for his actions, despite the fact that he is a “hard” determinist who denies the very notion of moral responsibility. In an article for The Chronicle Review entitled, You Don’t Have Free Will (March 18, 2012), Coyne spelt out with admirable lucidity the consequences of his deterministic philosophy:

So what are the consequences of realizing that physical determinism negates our ability to choose freely? Well, nihilism is not an option: We humans are so constituted, through evolution or otherwise, to believe that we can choose. What is seriously affected is our idea of moral responsibility, which should be discarded along with the idea of free will. If whether we act well or badly is predetermined rather than a real choice, then there is no moral responsibility — only actions that hurt or help others. That realization shouldn’t seriously change the way we punish or reward people, because we still need to protect society from criminals, and observing punishment or reward can alter the brains of others, acting as a deterrent or stimulus. What we should discard is the idea of punishment as retribution, which rests on the false notion that people can choose to do wrong.

In an exchange last year with “soft” determinist philosopher Russell Blackford, who thinks determinism is compatible with moral responsibility, Coyne discussed Blackford’s hypothetical case of a child who drowns in a pond while he stands by and does nothing to help the child. Are the child’s parents entitled to blame him, even if he insists that he couldn’t have done otherwise? Blackford certainly thought so: he argued that if he had wanted to, he could have saved the child, and for this reason, the parents’ anger against him would have been entirely justifiable, in this hypothetical scenario. Coyne pointed out (with perfect consistency) that if Blackford’s wants were determined by his genes and his environment, then there was no meaningful sense in which he could have done otherwise, and that therefore he was not to blame for his failure to save the child:

Yes, of course if you change the “desire-set” construed in that way, then your actions would have been different. But, Russell, your desire-set is fixed by your molecules: by your genes, physiology, and the determined environmental factors that impinge on them…

What it appears to boil down to … is whether or not the parents of the drowned child have a right to reproach Blackford for his dilatory and selfish behavior…

But in what sense are they “quite right” to complain that Russell didn’t save their child? They certainly feel aggrieved about this, for such feelings are evolved and powerful, but in my view Russell had no “moral responsibility” to save the child: he could only do what he did.

Coyne went on to add that the parents could express disapprobation at Blackford for his negligence in failing to save the child:

Yes, the parents could complain about what he didn’t do, and that, indeed, may affect not only Russell’s future behavior, making him more altruistic, but influence others to act more altruistically in the future. (Nobody — even pure determinists — deny that social approbation or disapprobation can influence people’s future behavior.)

But as Coyne explained in a follow-up response to Blackford (April 9, 2012), what made no sense, in his view, was their expressing moral indignation:

But he [Blackford] later argues that one can rightly blame someone for failing to save a drowning child. Note the word “rightly,” which assumes not just responsibility (which is okay with me, as blame changes future behavior, both of the “blamee” and onlookers), but moral responsibility. Russell certainly favors the idea of moral responsibility. But if he sees difficulty in understanding how one can be responsible for one’s own character (and he’s right: how could we be?), then whence the concept of moral responsibility?

To recap: Professor Coyne believes that we are not morally responsible for our actions, and that righteous indignation at people who engage in anti-social behavior is a misplaced emotion, which makes no sense as each of us is a biological automaton. We can express disapproval, and even “blame” people for their actions, if our aim is merely to prevent future recurrences of this behavior on the part of the individual concerned – or other individuals who might be inclined to imitate him. But what we cannot do, if we are consistent determinists, is express moral outrage at the offending individual.

Coyne’s inconsistency

Coyne’s latest comments in his recent post (April 27, 2012) on the scandal involving Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel thus appear to be totally at odds with his declared views on determinism and free will, as he vents his spleen on a respected academic who faked his research data. There is an undeniable tone of indignation in Coyne’s remarks about Stapel: “He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught,” and he adds: “I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel… Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.”

Professor Coyne seems to be implying here that Stapel should have thought about how his acts of deceit would impinge on the lives of others, and that he deserves blame for not having done so. “Should have” implies “could have.” But if Stapel’s thoughts and desires are the product of his genes and his environment, then in what sense could he have done otherwise than what he did, and how can he be blamed (in any moral sense of the word) for failing to advert to the effects that his act would have on other people? On Coyne’s account, Stapel’s failure to think of the needs of others ultimately reflects either a failure in his upbringing or a flaw in his genome. He couldn’t help that, so why reproach him for it? I can see why Coyne would want to reprogram Stapel’s stunted psyche, but I cannot for the life of me understand how Coyne, as a hard determinist who denies moral responsibility, could complain about Stapel’s thoughtlessness in committing acts which “ruined the careers of many of his students.” If Stapel couldn’t have refrained from committing those acts, then it makes no sense to say that he shouldn’t have done them. All that Coyne can consistently say is that acts like Stapel’s shouldn’t happen, insofar as they harm the interests of others and of society as a whole. But that’s simply tantamount to saying that society should try to prevent such acts from occurring – which is quite different from saying that the perpetrators of such acts shouldn’t have done them.

Why Charles Darwin would not have blamed Stapel for his actions

Coyne’s inability to justify the feeling of moral indignation which we commonly experience reflects a failing, not only in his own deterministic philosophy, but of Darwinism in general. Few people are aware that Darwin was a thorough-going determinist who denied the notion of moral responsibility as far back as 1837, some 22 years before the publication of his Origin of Species.

In his Notebook C: Transmutation of species (2-7.1838), Darwin espoused a mechanistic account of the human mind. The mis-spellings and grammar and punctuation errors are Darwin’s:

Thought (or desires more properly) being heredetary.- it is difficult to imagine it anything but structure of brain heredetary,. – analogy points out to this.- love of the deity effect of organization. oh you Materialist!

Why is thought, being a secretion of brain, more wonderful than gravity a property of matter? – It is our arrogance, it our admiration of ourselves. (Paragraph 166)

In his Notebook M [Metaphysics on morals and speculations on expression (1838) CUL-DAR125], which was marked “Private”, Darwin recorded his decision not to go public with his materialism. He resolved:

To avoid stating how far, I believe, in Materialism, say only that emotions, instincts degrees of talent, which are heredetary are so because brain of child resembles parent stock. (Paragraph 57)

In addition to being a materialist, Darwin was also a consistent determinist. In his other metaphysical writings from that period (c. 1837), Darwin made it clear that he did not really regard human beings as morally responsible for their good or bad choices. He also held that criminals should be punished solely in order to deter others who might break the law:

(a) one well feels how many actions are not determined by what is called free will, but by strong invariable passions — when these passions weak, opposed & complicated one calls them free will — the chance of mechanical phenomena.— (mem: M. Le Comte one of philosophy, & savage calling laws of nature chance)…

The general delusion about free will obvious.— because man has power of action, & he can seldom analyse his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, & therefore now great effort of reason to discover them: this is important explanation) he thinks they have none.

Effects.— One must view a wrecked man like a sickly one — We cannot help loathing a diseased offensive object, so we view wickedness.— it would however be more proper to pity them [than] to hate & be disgusted with them. Yet it is right to punish criminals; but solely to deter others.— It is not more strange that there should be necessary wickedness than disease.

This view should teach one profound humility, one deserves no credit for anything. (yet one takes it for beauty & good temper), nor ought one to blame others.

(See Darwin’s Old and USELESS Notes about the moral sense & some metaphysical points written about the year 1837 & earlier, pp. 25-27. For original transcription, see Paul Barrett, et al., Charles Darwin’s Notebooks, 1836-1844, New York: Cornell University Press, 1987, p. 608.)

A true disciple of Darwin, then, would find it impossible to blame Diederik Stapel for his acts of academic fraud. On Darwin’s view, a man like Stapel is simply “a diseased offensive object,” whom we should pity rather than blame – even if we feel the need to punish him, in order to deter others from imitating his example.

While he may have concealed his philosophical views from the public at large, Darwin was scrupulously honest in his scientific research. He believed that science is a quest for Truth with a capital T, and he also believed in carefully setting forth the objections to a theory before proceeding to refute them. On this point, his views diverged sharply from the recently expressed views of Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, who revealed in his New York Times interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee that it was his purely pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled him to rationalize his deed:

Several times in our conversation, Stapel alluded to having a fuzzy, postmodernist relationship with the truth, which he agreed served as a convenient fog for his wrongdoings. “It’s hard to know the truth,” he said. “When somebody says, ‘I love you,’ how do I know what it really means?” At the time, the Netherlands would soon be celebrating the arrival of St. Nicholas, and the younger of his two daughters sat down by the fireplace to sing a traditional Dutch song welcoming St. Nick. Stapel remarked to me that children her age, which was 10, knew that St. Nick wasn’t really going to come down the chimney. “But they like to believe it anyway, because it assures them of presents,” he told me with a wink.

Apparently Stapel defines truth as “whatever works.” And it was this pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled Stapel to rationalize his original act of academic fraud, as he acknowledged in his interview:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

The Darwinist conception of truth

What Stapel did raises an important ethical question, however: is there a fundamental contradiction between Darwin’s conception of truth with a capital T and Stapel’s pragmatic notion of truth? In particular, can a Darwinist consistently condemn falsifying research data, or for that matter, concocting bogus arguments, in order to persuade people that Darwinian evolution is true? I am not asking here whether Charles Darwin would have approved of such acts of deceit; I think we can all agree that he would have condemned them unequivocally. The question I am asking is whether Darwin’s philosophical worldview could legitimize deceit (the telling of small untruths) in the service of a “higher truth.” And I think the answer is “yes.” My grounds for this conclusion have to do with the nature of truth itself, as Darwinism (and more generally, scientific naturalism) conceives it.

Darwinism is wedded to a notion of methodological naturalism, which Darwin originally espoused because he believed that the only good scientific explanation is one which explains everything in terms of physical laws, which enable scientists to predict effects from causes, in a deterministic fashion. Darwin set out the conditions that he believed a good scientific explanation must satisfy in a short essay which he jotted down while he was reading selected passages from Dr. John MacCullough’s book, Proofs and Illustrations of the Attributes of God (London, James Duncan, Paternoster Row, 1837). For those who are interested, here’s the reference: Darwin, C. R. ‘Macculloch. Attrib of Deity’ [Essay on Theology and Natural Selection] (1838). CUL-DAR71.53-59. Viewers can read it here at Darwin Online.) Darwin’s essay contains a telling passage in section 5, which succinctly summarizes why Darwin believed that appeals to “the will of God” explained nothing:

N.B. The explanation of types of structure in classes — as resulting from the will of the deity, to create animals on certain plans, — is no explanation — it has not the character of a physical law /& is therefore utterly useless.— it foretells nothing/ because we know nothing of the will of the Deity, how it acts & whether constant or inconstant like that of man.— the cause given we know not the effect.

Darwinism’s implications for ethical truth

What, the reader will ask, does this have to do with the moral legitimacy of lying in the cause of science? The implication follows once we realize that on a naturalistic worldview, there can be no autonomous domain of objective ethical truths. Ethical principles are simply rules which allow us all to get along. Few Darwinists have articulated this point more perceptively than Professor Jerry Coyne. As he put it in a post entitled, Uncle Eric on scientism (December 12, 2012) in response to fellow atheist Eric Macdonald, Coyne took issue with Macdonald’s expressed belief that there are some actions which are objectively wrong. Coyne answered that while he also condemned certain barbaric actions as wrong, he could do so only in a subjective sense:

Now I agree, of course, that throwing acid in the face of Afghan schoolgirls for trying to learn is wrong. But it is not an “objective” moral wrong — that is, you cannot deduce it from mere observation, not without adding some reasons why you think it’s wrong. And those reasons are based on opinions. In this case, the “opinion” is that it’s wrong to hurt anyone for trying to go to school. In other words, Eric claims that moral dicta are objective ones, on the par with the “knowledge” of science.

But such dicta are not “truths,” but “guides for living”. And some people, like the odious Taliban who perpetuate these crimes, do disagree. How do you prove, objectively, that they’re wrong? You need to bring in other subjective criteria.

The problem with “objective” moral truths is much clearer in less clear-cut cases. Is it objectively true that abortion is wrong, or that a moral society must give everyone health care? You can’t ascertain these “truths” by observation; you deduce them from some general principles of right and wrong that are, at bottom, opinion. (Of course, some opinions are more well-founded than others, and that’s what philosophy is good for.)

In other words, Eric is committing here the very sin he decried (as I recall) in Sam Harris’s book The Moral Landscape: he is saying that there are scientifically establishable truths about ethics. And if that’s true, then let Eric tell us what those truths are — without first defining, based on his taste, what is “moral” and “immoral.” Let him give us a list of all the behaviors he considers objectively immoral.

Now, I maintain that there is no objective morality: that morality is a guide for how people should get along in society, and that what is “moral” comports in general with the rules we need to live by in a harmonious society — one with greater “well being,” as Harris puts it. A society in which half the inhabitants are dispossessed because they lack a Y chromosome is not a society brimming with well being, and I wouldn’t want to live in it. And yes, what promotes “well being” can in principle be established empirically. But that still presumes that the best society is one that promotes the greatest “well being,” and that is an opinion, not a fact.

Could a consistent Darwinist morally condemn deceit in the cause of Darwinism?

Which brings us to the question: Is a society which indoctrinates children with deceptively simple or fallacious arguments for Darwinism (say, arguments of the kind described in Dr. Jonathan Wells’ Icons of Evolution) doing a bad thing? On Coyne’s logic, a Darwinist cannot consistently condemn such behavior. Here’s why.

If you are totally convinced that:

(i) truth is a scientific notion;
(ii) truth can only ascertained by either logic or observation;
(iii) Darwinism is objectively true in a scientific sense of the term; and
(iv) a society which recognizes the reality of Darwinian evolution, is “better” – or at least, works better – than one that doesn’t,

then it seems to me that the logic of engaging in deceptive persuasion, in the cause of Darwinism, is inescapable.

I am not referring here to a scientist publishing data which could impede future scientific research, or that would be liable to be exposed, bringing science itself into disrepute. Let’s suppose instead that the deception is more subtle: say, a published study that serves to “refute” a popular scientific objection to Darwinism (e.g. is there enough time available for evolution?), and make creationists or Intelligent Design proponents look silly; or for that matter, continuing to publish, in children’s science textbooks, an old argument for Darwinism that’s been trotted out for decades (e.g. Haeckel’s embryo drawings) but which scientists now know to be false. If you passionately believed in the truth of Darwinism, and if your notion of truth were a naturalistic one, then I do not see how you could morally condemn such actions.

And I haven’t even mentioned the propaganda for the materialistic view of mind that pervades high school and university science textbooks. When was the last time you saw one that gave a fair hearing to scientific arguments for dualism, or exposed the fallacies (which I have written about here) in “scientific” claims that free will is an illusion? And when was the last time that students were exposed to rebuttals of fallacious arguments for materialism – despite the fact that even materialist philosophers such as William Lycan have acknowledged that there are no good arguments for materialism? Once you accept materialism, of course, then Darwinism becomes a much easier pill to swallow.

But it is materialism itself – a fundamentally false notion that clouds one’s entire view of the world – which is the ultimate deception. The story of Santa Claus pales in comparison.

P.S. For those readers who may have been wondering what I’ve been doing for the past month or so, I should explain that I’ve been working on a reply to a recent online essay on humans and animals, that’s somehow turned into a 30-chapter book! My apologies for the long delay. My book should be ready in a week or two.

Comments
Hi Phinehas,
The question is: Why would the diagnosis make any difference? For me, it is patently obvious that the diagnosis makes a difference because it calls into question whether the person who hit you in the nose was fully responsible for his choice to do so. What other explanation can there be?
What is obvious is that the guy who hit me in the nose was the one responsible for hitting me in the nose. The reason the diagnosis would be important is because the more we understand about why he might have done that, the better we can figure out how we might keep him from doing that again. If he did it because he had a violent upbringing and his entire personality is aggressive and he has a long history of violent behavior, clearly he needs to be incarcerated. However, if a formerly well-adjusted and non-violent person had a brain lesion on a portion of the brain that normally inhibits aggression and medical experience confirmed that surgery would likely rectify his violent behavior, then we ought to do that and not put him in a jail cell.
I choose to believe... As to what essentially distinguishes these from the list you’ve provided: These represent areas in which I am sometimes tempted to believe otherwise. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that some element of doubt is a prerequisite for any choice to believe. Without doubt, there can be no belief. Without doubt, there is only certainty. Of course, at least in some cases, how much you doubt may also be subject to willful choices.
Ok, Phinehas, I think we've clarified a lot. In my experience, and the way I talk about it, if I believe something I do not feel as though I could choose not to believe it, and if I disbelieve something I do not feel like I could choose to believe it. If I am not sure about something, then I'm more likely to say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" rather than saying I believe one way or another about it. If I think about it, I realize that I probably do say "I don't know" more than other people. What I have called here "flipping a coin in one's head" to believe one thing or another feels to me like a disingenuous charade, but to others it feels like a changing one's belief on purpose. So I think I was wrong to generalize my experience to others: Just because I am not able to experience my conscious will determining what I believe, it seems other people experience exactly that. The lesson for me here is that perhaps I should make my point prescriptive rather than descriptive. Instead of saying people can't choose what they believe, I should say it is important to be aware of one's reasons for believing one thing over another, and those reasons ought to be other justifiable beliefs rather than simply one's desires. I don't think it is a good thing to pick or stick to some belief just because we want it to be true. I'm not saying I don't do this involuntarily - like I said we all suffer from all sorts of cognitive illusions. But I will say that it is better for people to try and distinguish these two things. If I choose to believe that Angelina Jolie loves me because I desire it to be true, my actions will not generally be rational and beneficial. Moreover, if we all believed whatever we wanted to believe, we would have no basis on which to come to agreements or compromises. One person says "I believe that God wants me to kill gay people!" and the other says "I believe that God wants me to kiss gay people!" If these beliefs are freely chosen rather than based on more fundamental shared beliefs, there is no starting point for coming together. This now reminds me of "The Secret" [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book) ]. Here's an interesting take on this whole idea that one can choose one's beliefs to good effect: http://www.johnstackhouse.com/2007/02/21/oprahs-secret-new-old-good-bad/ Again, it is certainly not my intent to tell you or anyone else that whatever is having a positive effect on your life is somehow wrong or illusory. In fact I'm saying nearly the opposite: You might believe that you are simply choosing your beliefs, but in fact they are being shaped not by conscious choice but instead by your experience that these beliefs guide you toward tangible and positive results. And I do certainly hope you continue on that path! Thanks again for the discussion, RDFishRDFish
May 9, 2013
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If somebody punched me in the nose, I would be really angry and want them to learn a lesson that they can’t get away with that. But if that person was then diagnosed with brain tumor that made them violent, I may (or may not) still feel angry with them, but I would say the appropriate response would be surgery and hospitalization rather than incarceration.
The question is: Why would the diagnosis make any difference? For me, it is patently obvious that the diagnosis makes a difference because it calls into question whether the person who hit you in the nose was fully responsible for his choice to do so. What other explanation can there be?
I don’t want to guess what sorts of propositions you would be able to indirectly choose to believe, so please give me a few examples, and then perhaps I will understand what essentially distinguishes them from those I’ve listed and how I could go about choosing to believe them or not, indirectly, of my own free will.
I choose to believe that my wife loves me. I choose to believe that she is well-intentioned even when I am hurt by a choice she has made. I choose to believe that I can be a good father despite selfish choices I've made in the past. I choose to believe that I can rise above the dysfunction in my family of origin. I choose to believe that God exists and that my life and choices matter to Him. I choose to believe that God has the power to help me, especially in the areas of my life where I feel powerless. As to what essentially distinguishes these from the list you've provided: These represent areas in which I am sometimes tempted to believe otherwise. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that some element of doubt is a prerequisite for any choice to believe. Without doubt, there can be no belief. Without doubt, there is only certainty. Of course, at least in some cases, how much you doubt may also be subject to willful choices.Phinehas
May 9, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
I was more interested in painting “no one can voluntarily choose what they see/believe” with the same brush as “evolution is a fact.” I am assuming you understand how the latter is ripe for equivocation. If not, I can explain what I mean.
That equivocation is patently obvious. Less obvious to you, perhaps, is the equivocation inherent in the term "intelligent cause", but please let's leave that for another discussion :-)
RDF: Next, I have been 100% clear and consistent about responsibility… PHINEHAS: I don’t know about 100% clear and consistent.
Really?? Here's what I've said in this thread:
RDF: Coyne’s denial of moral responsibility is completely wrongheaded – of course we are responsible for our actions! Of course people choose their actions, and – if they are not coerced by someone else – those choices are free. AND In my view, everybody is responsible for everything they do AND [W]hy would you say we have no moral responsibility? Of course we are responsible for our actions – who else is responsible for what I do?? AND And I believe the blame, praise, and responsibility for each person’s actions are due to that person. I think I’ve made that pretty clear! AND I feel each person is fully responsible for everything they do – even if they say they have a disease, addiction, had bad parenting, or whatever other excuse they may offer. Hopefully that is clear. AND Everyone is responsible for their own decisions. AND First, let me be clear that I believe that everybody is responsible for their own actions. AND MORE...
Really, now - could you tell me how exactly I could have been any more clear or consistent about this issue?
RDF: Now, it would be very aggravating to me to think that somebody is consciously adopting ridiculous views – I might want to knock them upside the head and yell “Hey! Cut it out!”. But knowing that they did not consciously choose these views, but rather have become convinced of them without any conscious, willful choice, I would respond instead with patient and courteous discussion, formulating a set of arguments that were as persuasive as I could muster, and hope for the best! PHINEHAS: Maybe I’m missing something, but this sure sounds to me like you would hold the first person responsible for their conscious, willful choice, but not the second. Else, how to explain the difference in your perspective and interaction?
Yes, what you are missing is that I hold everybody fully responsible for their own actions. Perhaps I haven't been sufficiently clear and consistent on this matter ;-) Of course we are each responsible for our own choices, but that doesn't mean that we will respond the same way to every instance of what we judge to be bad behavior. As I explained in my first post here (@2), we do need to consider circumstances and motivations in order to figure out how to deal with people who do bad things: If somebody punched me in the nose, I would be really angry and want them to learn a lesson that they can't get away with that. But if that person was then diagnosed with brain tumor that made them violent, I may (or may not) still feel angry with them, but I would say the appropriate response would be surgery and hospitalization rather than incarceration. Likewise, whether or not somebody consciously chose to believe in something stupid, they would in my view be fully responsible for their beliefs and the decisions and choices they made based on those beliefs. But depending on these other circumstances, I might do different things to try and change their mind.
Further, I’m not sure that the act of giving mental assent to a proposition about which you can think of no immediate objections isn’t awfully close to the same thing as choosing a belief directly.
I think it's utterly different: I asked to you confirm that what I wrote matched your current belief, not whether or not you would chose to believe what I wrote!
RDF: “We can indirectly choose our beliefs, but this only works for some beliefs that we already believe are believable.” Is that fair? PHINEHAS: I don’t think I would phrase it that way at all. I’m not at all certain that the majority of our beliefs are of the inflexible kind. In fact, as someone else pointed out, it seems to stretch the normal way we think of beliefs to include directly observed evidence that would basically require a psychotic break to be deniable. I’d be more inclined to say something like: We can indirectly choose many of our beliefs, but what we believe tends to grow increasingly inflexible as we approach the kind of certainty that typically results from direct observation or experience.
Ok, in that case, I'm glad I checked with you that I was stating your position correctly. So you think we (indirectly) choose many or most of our beliefs. Now, it seems to me that there is clearly an infinite number of propositions that you could never believe, no matter how indirectly and hard you work at it, including: - My basset hound teaches calculus at Harvard - Jimma Hoffa lives in a condominium at the center of the Earth - Everyone in China has your picture on their bathroom mirror Why is it that you could never choose these beliefs? Obviously because of your pre-existing beliefs about dogs, the habitability of the Earth's core, how many people in China know you, and so on. Obviously too some of these relevant beliefs are based on your direct experience and some not. And just as obviously (in my view), these beliefs were never consciously chosen by you. I don't want to guess what sorts of propositions you would be able to indirectly choose to believe, so please give me a few examples, and then perhaps I will understand what essentially distinguishes them from those I've listed and how I could go about choosing to believe them or not, indirectly, of my own free will. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 8, 2013
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First, it sounds like you want to paint me with the same brush as some others you apparently see around these parts.
Not at all. I was more interested in painting "no one can voluntarily choose what they see/believe" with the same brush as "evolution is a fact." I am assuming you understand how the latter is ripe for equivocation. If not, I can explain what I mean.
Next, I have been 100% clear and consistent about responsibility...
I don't know about 100% clear and consistent.
Now, it would be very aggravating to me to think that somebody is consciously adopting ridiculous views – I might want to knock them upside the head and yell “Hey! Cut it out!”. But knowing that they did not consciously choose these views, but rather have become convinced of them without any conscious, willful choice, I would respond instead with patient and courteous discussion, formulating a set of arguments that were as persuasive as I could muster, and hope for the best!
Maybe I'm missing something, but this sure sounds to me like you would hold the first person responsible for their conscious, willful choice, but not the second. Else, how to explain the difference in your perspective and interaction?
Now, the vision analogy doesn’t appear to have clarified anything, so I’ll drop that, and try to be as direct and clear as I can.
Don't drop it on my account! I actually found it very helpful.
We agree that nobody can, by act of will, directly choose their beliefs and desires. You are arguing that (1) we still can indirectly use our conscious will to choose our beliefs, and (2) the difference between directly and indirectly choosing our beliefs is relatively unimportant. Am I right so far?
At least unimportant enough to make, "nobody can choose their beliefs and desires," problematic as a true statement for all cases. Further, I'm not sure that the act of giving mental assent to a proposition about which you can think of no immediate objections isn't awfully close to the same thing as choosing a belief directly. But I can set that concern aside for the time being.
I believe we also agree (correct me if I’m wrong please) that even indirectly, we can’t consciously choose to believe anything, right?
In principle, yes. There may be some edge cases like the monks you mentioned.
“We can indirectly choose our beliefs, but this only works for some beliefs that we already believe are believable.” Is that fair?
I don't think I would phrase it that way at all. I'm not at all certain that the majority of our beliefs are of the inflexible kind. In fact, as someone else pointed out, it seems to stretch the normal way we think of beliefs to include directly observed evidence that would basically require a psychotic break to be deniable. I'd be more inclined to say something like: We can indirectly choose many of our beliefs, but what we believe tends to grow increasingly inflexible as we approach the kind of certainty that typically results from direct observation or experience.Phinehas
May 8, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
It is too easy to equivocate on, “nobody can voluntarily choose what they see.” (Believe it or not, this kind of equivocation is seen a lot around these parts.) Sure, the truth of this fact is supportable using examples like chair/elephant and 1-2-3/4-5-6. But it is just as readily deniable using examples like closing your eyes or turning away. The worry is that you are using the phrase to support the latter, not the former. No one is arguing against the former. The equivocation, the sleight-of-hand, the philosophical bait-and-switch lies in any assumption that, since you cannot be held responsible for the former, you also cannot be held responsible for the latter.
First, it sounds like you want to paint me with the same brush as some others you apparently see around these parts. I'm not trying to pull a bait-and-switch on anybody, and if I'm not being clear about some concept or distinction I assure you it is not because I'm trying to pull a fast one. Next, I have been 100% clear and consistent about responsibility: In my view, we are, each of us, 100% responsible for all of our own decisions and actions, and that holds true whether our decisions are conscious or not, or whether we are drunk or tired or hopped up on Twinkies or if we were mistreated as children or even suffering from a brain tumor. Only if we are directly coerced - forced - by somebody else would I ever consider that we could not be held responsible for some deed we performed. Now, the vision analogy doesn't appear to have clarified anything, so I'll drop that, and try to be as direct and clear as I can. We agree that nobody can, by act of will, directly choose their beliefs and desires. You are arguing that (1) we still can indirectly use our conscious will to choose our beliefs, and (2) the difference between directly and indirectly choosing our beliefs is relatively unimportant. Am I right so far? I believe we also agree (correct me if I'm wrong please) that even indirectly, we can't consciously choose to believe anything, right? No matter what willful acts you performed, you could not successfully choose to believe unicorns live in the clouds, or that it is wholesome and healthy to molest children. Assuming you agree, your claim becomes "We can indirectly choose our beliefs, but this only works for some beliefs that we already believe are believable." Is that fair? I'll stop there to see if I've mischaracterized you views thus far. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 7, 2013
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RDFish:
I’d say “Dude, what’s up with that? You planning on ripping me off or something?” But if you saw me enter 1-2-3 and chose to see 4-5-6 instead, and then actually saw that, I’d take you to the psych ward.
Right. And, to my knowledge, no one is really arguing otherwise. The issue I am having is that when you say something like:
We can voluntarily choose to close or eyes or keep them open, but nobody can (normally) voluntarily choose what they see.
It is too easy to equivocate on, "nobody can voluntarily choose what they see." (Believe it or not, this kind of equivocation is seen a lot around these parts.) Sure, the truth of this fact is supportable using examples like chair/elephant and 1-2-3/4-5-6. But it is just as readily deniable using examples like closing your eyes or turning away. The worry is that you are using the phrase to support the latter, not the former. No one is arguing against the former. The equivocation, the sleight-of-hand, the philosophical bait-and-switch lies in any assumption that, since you cannot be held responsible for the former, you also cannot be held responsible for the latter.Phinehas
May 7, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
That is a great analogy, and I think it nicely highlights the issue I am having with your claims. For me, if you can choose to close your eyes or keep them open, then you can voluntarily choose what you see.
If someone voluntarily opens their eyes and sees a chair, and then chooses to see an elephant instead, and then actually sees an elephant, we would say they are suffering from visual hallucinations. You can open yourself to new observations, influences, and beliefs, but you cannot voluntarily choose what it is you come to believe.
Suppose we are hanging out, and you’ve got to swing by an ATM to get some spending cash. Since you don’t really know me that well, you ask me to close my eyes while you enter your PIN. But then you notice in the reflection that I am peeking! Which reaction makes sense in this scenario? A. That’s OK, you say to yourself, After all, nobody can voluntarily choose what they see. B. I don’t really know this guy, you remind yourself, and his choice to peek while I was entering my PIN is awfully shady!
I'd say "Dude, what's up with that? You planning on ripping me off or something?" But if you saw me enter 1-2-3 and chose to see 4-5-6 instead, and then actually saw that, I'd take you to the psych ward.
Suppose that I left my eyes open, but turned to look the other way. Would you still be upset?
No, because then you couldn't see my pin - you'd be choosing not to (just like leaving your eyes closed). Honestly this analogy seems clear to me. You can choose not to listen to the news, and instead listen to rumors on Twitter, and that would shape your beliefs. After believing that Obama planted the Boston bomb because you read it on Twitter, you might change your mind and "open your eyes" and see on FOX news that it wasn't really Obama. But you couldn't choose to believe it was Nancy Pelosi, even if you really wanted to believe it. You simply couldn't. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 7, 2013
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RDFish:
We can voluntarily choose to close or eyes or keep them open, but nobody can (normally) voluntarily choose what they see.
That is a great analogy, and I think it nicely highlights the issue I am having with your claims. For me, if you can choose to close your eyes or keep them open, then you can voluntarily choose what you see. Again, the indirect nature of your control over what you see seems like a distinction without a meaningful difference to me. Further, I don't think this gets you where you want to go. Suppose we are hanging out, and you've got to swing by an ATM to get some spending cash. Since you don't really know me that well, you ask me to close my eyes while you enter your PIN. But then you notice in the reflection that I am peeking! Which reaction makes sense in this scenario? A. That's OK, you say to yourself, After all, nobody can voluntarily choose what they see. B. I don't really know this guy, you remind yourself, and his choice to peek while I was entering my PIN is awfully shady! Clearly, upon careful introspection, the second response is more appropriate to the reality of the situation. And just as clearly, the reason it is the more rational reaction is that I do have a choice about what I see. Perhaps you will split hairs and say that your reaction isn't based on my choice about what to see, but on my choice to leave my eyes open. But is this really true? Suppose that I left my eyes open, but turned to look the other way. Would you still be upset? Would your suspicion still be raised the same way? Isn't it clear that the crucial bit is what I chose to see and not what I chose to do, since any number of choices about what to do are either acceptable or inappropriate based on whether or not I see your PIN?Phinehas
May 7, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
Yes, but you keep wanting to jump to our choices being the result of beliefs and desires we did not choose. If this is true, then how is it exactly that we can effect positive change in our lives?
Again, we can arrange our life situation such that we are exposed to new ideas and influences. The best way to understand, I think, is this analogy I brought up: We can voluntarily choose to close or eyes or keep them open, but nobody can (normally) voluntarily choose what they see.
From what you’ve said about choosing actions that we hope will bring about the change we desire, the best that we could manage would be to effect some possibility of positive change. Life then becomes a crap shoot, but perhaps we’ll get lucky. That’s not how I’ve experienced things.
We don't always experience things the way they are. I don't experience the Earth moving, and I don't experience my mind playing tricks on me when I fall for optical illusions, and I don't experience my subconscious concocting rationalizations to account for my bevhavior.
RDF: And so, from outside yourself, I congratulate you on your good choices… PHINEHAS: Why?
Because you seem like a nice guy and I'm happy for others to do well!
They were merely the fallout of my beliefs and desires, which I cannot choose.
Merely??? They sound pretty significant to me!
So, in what way can we call my choices good?
I thought you had said your life took a turn for the better. I would say that was a good thing. Am I wrong?
I was merely fortunate to have the beliefs and desires I did, and fortunate that, when rolling the dice with my actions, my beliefs and choices were altered in positive ways.
Yes indeed! I'm glad for the good fortune of others - aren't you?
So are your congratulations the same thing as congratulating someone who’s just won the lottery?
Well, hearing my congratulations might encourage you to act in ways similar to those that had these good results, which would probably be a good thing. Congratulating you on winning the lottery wouldn't really have the same sort of positive effect, since chances are good that you wouldn't win it again.
I’m curious to know where you are going with all of this. What do you conclude base upon your introspection? Where is it that you end up philosophically.
Here is what I said about that:
RDF: I am interested in seeing if my arguments can have an influence on others’ beliefs. I think the point is important because it may change the way we think about others with views different from ours. ...Now, it would be very aggravating to me to think that somebody is consciously adopting ridiculous views – I might want to knock them upside the head and yell “Hey! Cut it out!”. But knowing that they did not consciously choose these views, but rather have become convinced of them without any conscious, willful choice, I would respond instead with patient and courteous discussion, formulating a set of arguments that were as persuasive as I could muster, and hope for the best!
PHINEHAS: I strongly suspect that it is your desires and the personal benefits of ending up wherever you end up that is driving your choices to believe the things that get you there.
I agree! I just happen to realize that those desires are not the result of my conscious choice. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 6, 2013
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RDFish:
My point has never been that we cannot effect positive change in our lives through our choices – only that it is not our conscious will that is capable of changing our beliefs and desires.
Yes, but you keep wanting to jump to our choices being the result of beliefs and desires we did not choose. If this is true, then how is it exactly that we can effect positive change in our lives? From what you've said about choosing actions that we hope will bring about the change we desire, the best that we could manage would be to effect some possibility of positive change. Life then becomes a crap shoot, but perhaps we'll get lucky. That's not how I've experienced things.
And so, from outside yourself, I congratulate you on your good choices...
Why? They were merely the fallout of my beliefs and desires, which I cannot choose. So, in what way can we call my choices good? I was merely fortunate to have the beliefs and desires I did, and fortunate that, when rolling the dice with my actions, my beliefs and choices were altered in positive ways. So are your congratulations the same thing as congratulating someone who's just won the lottery? I'm curious to know where you are going with all of this. What do you conclude base upon your introspection? Where is it that you end up philosophically. I strongly suspect that it is your desires and the personal benefits of ending up wherever you end up that is driving your choices to believe the things that get you there.Phinehas
May 6, 2013
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Right – but (I’m sure you see this coming): we do not choose our desires!
Some desires are outside the range of choice, others aren't. I can't change my natural appetites, to be sure, so I must manage them so that they do not manage me. Sometimes, that requires heavenly help. Other desires, among which are unnatural appetites acquired through bad habits (such as smoking cigarettes) or immoral desires related to selfishness (such as the desire to dominate or oppress), can be changed by choice, albeit with strenuous effort and persistence. With heavenly help, we can, by choice, replace the desire to do evil with the desire to do good, but it often involves the humiliation of falling down, getting back up, and falling down again. The victory, though it can be won, comes hard. Remember Augustine's famous prayer?--"Lord give me chastity, but not yet." “The kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force” Matthew 11:11-15:StephenB
May 6, 2013
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PeterJ: I think it was you who mentioned you'd written an autobiography. And I think I read a portion of it on the internet and found it absolutely fascinating. If so, can you point me to where I could find the rest of the book? It sounds a bit weird to say it, but your life is a real page-turner. :) Thanks!Phinehas
May 5, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
I hold that desiring a belief and then choosing to use a strategy that will bring it about is to change that belief through successive conscious acts of the will.
Well, at least one person here reports that they can choose their beliefs by a single act of will. I know I can't, and apparently you can't either. But if you say you can use a series of conscious willful acts to change your belief, I'll take your word for it.
Well, yes, of course. It wouldn’t make much sense to strive for a belief that we didn’t truly desire.
Right - but (I'm sure you see this coming): we do not choose our desires! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 5, 2013
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Hi RD You write,
I agree that these strategies and therapies sometimes work, but I think that the reason we need them is because… we are incapable of changing our beliefs and desires by acts of conscious will.
When I say that someone can choose to change his beliefs, I don't mean to say that he can summon that change immediately or by a single act of the will. That would be unrealistic. I mean that he can choose to change that belief through some kind of process, either through a behavioral change or through some kind of cognitive strategy. I hold that desiring a belief and then choosing to use a strategy that will bring it about is to change that belief through successive conscious acts of the will.
Anyway, as I think you know, these strategies only work when we already believe that we need to change, and truly desire to do so!"
Well, yes, of course. It wouldn't make much sense to strive for a belief that we didn't truly desire.StephenB
May 5, 2013
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Hi StephenB, I agree that these strategies and therapies sometimes work, but I think that the reason we need them is because... we are incapable of changing our beliefs and desires by acts of conscious will. Anyway, as I think you know, these strategies only work when we already believe that we need to change, and truly desire to do so! You did introduce a key concept into our discussion, that of rationalization. I agree that it is indeed by this involuntary, unconscious process that many of our beliefs are formed. I see you found your list of rationalizations on changingminds.org, where they admonish all of us to watch out for own rationalizations, because we all do it, and because we are not consciously aware of it. (I notice that among the items you left out of the list that you found there was this: A person explains their religious beliefs as 'God's will'. I'm not chiding you, honestly - just saying we all rationalize). I certainly did not intend to "dismiss the testimony" of people on this thread; they have in fact helped to shape my beliefs now. PeterJ here appears to actually have exactly the ability I was denying: He has chosen for no reason that is apparent even to himself to believe in God (and then to disbelieve, and then believe again), and to believe that his football team would triumph despite the facts, and he reports that he really, truly believes these things simply by choosing to. I'll end by admitting my own rationalizations here. I could never consciously will myself to believe something without what I thought was a good reason, and the thought that other people can simply choose to believe whatever they want without rational justification is frightening to me. This fear of mine unconsciously shaped my belief that nobody was capable of doing this. Looking at testimonies such as that from PeterJ has shown me I was probably wrong about that. Thanks for discussion, Stephen, RDFish P.S. PeterJ thank you for your comments, and best of luck on your next marriage!RDFish
May 5, 2013
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RD, as I said, I can, when called upon to do so, point to a number of psychological strategies and cognitive therapies through which the individual can, in many cases (not all), program himself to strengthen, weaken, add, or eliminate a belief-- on the condition that he will dispose himself to do so with his behavior. However, you have persuaded me that you would dismiss any and all such evidence, just as you dismissed the personal testimony of everyone on this tread. There is, therefore, no reason for me to include my own story. Ironically, you have, for some reason, chosen to believe that we cannot choose to believe anything. In any case, I will give you the last word, wishing you peace and blessings, coupled with my compliments for a gracious response to all my comments.StephenB
May 5, 2013
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I have found this quite an interesting discussion, although I must admit it is at times a little confusing. But I read on regardless, trying my bbest to follow it. On belief, I would just like to throw in a personal testimony. When I was very young, perhaps 6-7years, I remember being asked if I believed in God. My only real knowledge of God at that time was what I'd seen on TV at Christmas, and what my parents told me about the Salvation Army people at the bottom of our road. I quickly understood the concept of this 'invisible being' who was responsible for the universe, and later when asked the question i replied that 'I believed there was a God'. Now I didn't have any evidence that there was a God, or particularly believed everything that my parents told me (for good reason too), but for some reason chose to believe. I never really gave it much thought thereafter, however, as I got older, many years later, I distinctly remember being asked that question and for some reason i changed my mind and decided that I no longer believed. The thing is though, without having made a reasoned decision, on each occasion I somehow knew that the answer I gave was what I firmly believed. I find that same belief today still (almost 40 years later). No matter how rubbish my football team begin the season I choose to believe that they will win the league. When getting romantically involved with a woman, regardless of experience, I will choose to believe that 'she is the one' etc. Belief can be a matter of choice, as far as my experiences go, and having been married twice aready (almsost 3 times, on two occassions), it isn't always a good thing. However, there is one beliefe I chose, and that was at the age of 38 when I chose to believe in Christ. Well, I had a supernatural experience that changed my life completely, so thankfully some beliefs are benificial :) I know this won't help at all, but having followed the thread just wanted to add my little bit. Thanks guys for an interesting discussion.PeterJ
May 5, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
I agree that we cannot will ourselves to believe something different from what we believe through one act of the will at one moment in time.
Indeed! Moreover, we cannot will ourselves to believe something different from what we believe no matter how many times we try. We must be convinced to believe something else, or else our beliefs remain unchanged. That is why you thought my examples were so annoying: I chose things you did not actually believe (such as that you had won the lottery), and so it was clear that no matter how hard you tried, no matter much time you spent, and no matter how much you wished it was true, you could never succeed at willing yourself to believe it.
That would be a contradiction.
It's not a contradiction per se, it's just an empirical fact about how our minds work. And a good thing, too: You've pointed out some of the cognitive illusions that people suffer from, and there are plenty more. If people could actuallychange their beliefs just by consciously choosing to then we'd really have a mess on our hands!
The act of choosing and reconciling one’s beliefs to one’s behavior occurs at both the conscious and the unconscious level.
No, it's plain to see that it really is not a conscious process at all. In fact, people who rationalize like this will never report (even to themselves) that they consciously chose to change their beliefs! Instead, they will provide rationalizations for their beliefs, as though they arrived at them by evaluating evidence. And that is what it feels like to us when we do this (and all of us do it): It doesn't ever feel like we are just believing what we consciously chose to believe. Rather, it feels like we believe what we think is true. (The exception to this, I'll say, is when somebody is actually consciously lying about their reasons for something. The overweight guy who says he doesn't eat more than normal people might just be saying that so people don't make fun him, but inside his own mind he knows full well that eats way more than that. But this isn't an instance of belief change, because the guy's belief doesn't actually change.)
What matters is that the choice is coming from the person and not from an outside source.
I agree that we are all morally responsible for our own choices, even though we do not consciously choose our beliefs and desires, and even though we are all constantly influenced by outside sources.
Informally, people characterize is as “kidding ourselves".
Rationalization is also referred to as "self deception". Obviously the part of the self that is doing the deceiving is not conscious, and the part of us that gets deceived is our conscious self - otherwise it wouldn't work. Rationalization is an unconscious process.
For example, it could manifest itself in your belief that you are prevailing in this discussion.
Let's say I'd be happy to leave that for the fair reader to decide ;-) In any event, it's not my desire to "prevail", but I am interested in seeing if my arguments can have an influence on others' beliefs. I think the point is important because it may change the way we think about others with views different from ours. For example, here is something you said previously:
Sometimes, we form (and change) our beliefs simply because we want to. One such belief is manifest at this site quite often, namely the irrational notion that universes can just pop into existence without a cause. Clearly, this is an example of choosing a belief, because it militates against experience, reason, and reflection.
Hopefully you no longer believe that people can simply choose to believe like this, simply because they want to - right? Now, it would be very aggravating to me to think that somebody is consciously adopting ridiculous views - I might want to knock them upside the head and yell "Hey! Cut it out!". But knowing that they did not consciously choose these views, but rather have become convinced of them without any conscious, willful choice, I would respond instead with patient and courteous discussion, formulating a set of arguments that were as persuasive as I could muster, and hope for the best! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 4, 2013
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RD
And neither can we will ourselves to believe something different from what we actually believe.
I agree that we cannot will ourselves to believe something different from what we believe through one act of the will at one moment in time. That would be a contradiction. However, we can, through as series of willful acts, begin to pull away from a truth that we do not like, behave in a way that militates against it, and end by justifying our behavior with a new belief more in keeping with our actions.
Rationalizations occur in the subconscious, Stephen, not in the conscious mind. It is not a voluntary, willful act. So it has nothing to do with our discussion.
The act of choosing and reconciling one’s beliefs to one’s behavior occurs at both the conscious and the unconscious level. What matters is that the choice is coming from the person and not from an outside source. Informally, people characterize is as “kidding ourselves. It is not so much an attempt to instantaneously believe something that you don’t believe as it is in gradually seeking to believe something that isn’t true because you want it to be true. For example, it could manifest itself in your belief that you are prevailing in this discussion. Here are a few other examples: A man buys an expensive car and then tells people his old car was very unsafe. A person fails to get good enough results to get into a chosen university and then says that he didn't want to go there anyway. A parent punishes a child out of anger and says that it is for the child's 'own good'. A cashier gives you too much money by mistake, and you keep it on the grounds that they have cheated you in the past. Remember this one? A Catholic starts practicing artificial birth control and decides that he doesn’t really agree with the Church’s teaching on birth control on the grounds that it “doesn’t really hurt anybody.” Or try this: Politicians practice what George Orwell called, “reality control” as a means of shielding themselves from “Inconvenient facts.” Or, from a different perspective, here are some more everyday examples: “I don’t eat any more than the average person, but I am 100 pounds overweight.” “I am not really an alcoholic, I just drink for amusement.” Here is yet another facet of this phenomenon. Many of the worlds most influential people had serious moral flaws and literally corrupted their culture by persuading people to sink to their level. They hated reality the way it was, so they sought, and to a great degree succeeded in changing reality. Alfred Kinsey, for example, was a sexual pervert who countenanced child rape in order to make immoral sex acts seem normal. Karl Marx, a moocher who never worked a day in his life and was likely the worst family man in history, managed to develop an influential economic philosophy congenial with his bad habits. And so it goes.StephenB
May 4, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
No, we haven’t proven or disproven anything. We have proven only...
;-)
...that I cannot choose to believe anything at all, at a moment’s notice, with no motivation.
As for motivation, you ought to have had a strong motivation, since I asked you to pick something to believe that you really wanted to be true. If you didn't follow that part of the experiment, try it again, but this time pick something that you are highly motivated to believe, such as "I have won the state lottery and can provide financial security for my family in perpetuity" or whatever it is that would truly be meaningful to you. But beyond that, you complain that the experimental setup did not provide for sufficient time. But our experience of consciously willing other things is virtually immediate. Try, for example, willing your hand to wave - you'll see you can do it in less than a second. But I'm perfectly open to the idea that willfully changing a belief requires more time and effort than willfully waving a hand. Do you think if you a few hours you could will yourself to believe that you had won the state lottery? A week? Finally, you suggest that you can only will yourself to believe some things, but not anything at all. I submit this is really the crux of the issue. What is it that distinguishes the things that you can will yourself to believe from the things you could not possibly will yourself to believe?
I am surprised that you fall into such an egregious logical error.
I will endeavor to refrain from falling into egregious errors (logical or otherwise) and from surprising you in the future. ;-)
From a psychological study: “People who start to smoke again after quitting for a while perceive smoking to be less dangerous to their health, compared to their views when they decided to stop’ – thereby averting their ‘post-decisional regret through their new rationalization.” The message is clear. A person behaves a certain way and then chooses a belief that conforms to that behavior. Notice also, that the changed belief that was chosen does not occur instantaneously.
We seem to be cycling through the same pattern. I observe that nobody can consciously will themselves to change a belief, and you bring up some example where some people's beliefs change in some situation or other, and then I point out that the people in question did not actually consciously will themselves to change their belief and then we start over. Perhaps the problem is we don't mean the same thing by "consciously willing" something. What I mean by that is we are consciously aware of an explicit intention to do something or other. If I waved my hand by an act of conscious will, I would first think to myself "I'm going to wave my hand", and then I would proceed to wave my hand. If you mean something different by "consciouslly willing" something, then we've simply been talking past each other, and we can correct that if you describe what it is you mean by "consciously willing" something. But just like last time around, I again would say that these smokers never actually thought to themselves "I'm going to start believing that smoking is less dangerous to my health now" and then proceeded to change their beliefs. No, I'm sure they didn't do that. Rather, their beliefs changed without any conscious decision at all.
Same logical error as above. No rational, sane person could persuade himself to believe that that a mud-pie is a birthday cake, either instantaneously or over time. On the other hand, I just might delude myself someday into believing that young, hot chicks physically dig old men because the latter possess so much wisdom and experience. Indeed, I talked myself into it while I was writing. Do you grasp the difference?
You mean they don't????? Anyway, the point I was making with the analogy between seeing and belief was this: There are some things that are under voluntary control, and there are some things that are not. We can open and close our eyes by consciously willing it, or wave our hand or tell a story. We cannot generally(*) exert voluntary control over our pancreatic function or our hair growing. Likewise, we cannot will ourselves to see something different from what we actually see with our eyes. It would not be logically impossible for us to do this, it is just empirically false. And neither can we will ourselves to believe something different from what we actually believe. (*) I just thought of something interesting that might undermine my own position here in a way. Tibetan monks famously train themselves to achieve voluntary control over bodily functions that are (in Western medical thought) assumed not to be controllable by conscious will, such as heart rate and body temperature. Perhaps most people are unable to exert voluntary control over their beliefs, but with training and meditation, one could learn to believe whatever one wanted to believe. I'll have to think about this some, but at first blush it seems both plausible and depressing, since we really don't want people to believe things that aren't true.
What is obvious to me is that you are missing the point rather spectacularly with your impossible to believe examples.
So I guess you are saying that we can only will ourselves to believe things that we already believe are believable, right? Again, this is the crux of the issue, and I think you need to give this some thought.
One answer to the discomfort of the situation is that ‘their minds rationalize it by inventing a comfortable illusion’.
Rationalizations occur in the subconscious, Stephen, not in the conscious mind. It is not a voluntary, willful act. So it has nothing to do with our discussion. Cheers, RDFish P.S. I am enjoying our discussion and hope you are too. I will be away from my computer all day tomorrow but look forward to continuing if you are willing (pun intended).RDFish
May 3, 2013
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RDFish
Since we disagree, let’s settle our disagreement by appeal to a simple experiment. Ready?
OK
1) Think of something you do not currently believe to be true, but you wish (hope and desire) that it was true. I will do the same – for me, this will be “I desire that there be no more crime in New York City”.
OK
2) Now, take whatever it was that you desire to be true, and choose to actually believe it is true.
OK
3) Done? Ok, let’s take a look at the results. Do you actually believe that it is true now? I can tell you right now, for me the experiment failed. As much as I’d like it to be the case that there be no more crime in NYC, I still don’t believe that is the case.
My belief has not changed.
Did it work for you? If not, it seems that we have thus disproven the notion that we can simply and successfully choose to believe something we desire was true but do not already believe.
No, we haven’t proven or disproven anything. We have proven only that I cannot choose to believe anything at all, at a moment’s notice, with no motivation. No one gets up in the morning and says, “Well, I am bored. I think I will change a belief today.” They need time and some kind of justification or motive. I am surprised that you fall into such an egregious logical error. Now let me give you an everyday example of someone who chooses to believe something: From a psychological study: “People who start to smoke again after quitting for a while perceive smoking to be less dangerous to their health, compared to their views when they decided to stop' - thereby averting their 'post-decisional regret through their new rationalization.” The message is clear. A person behaves a certain way and then chooses a belief that conforms to that behavior. Notice also, that the changed belief that was chosen does not occur instantaneously.
I haven’t been very successful in communicating this idea to you, so I’m going to try a different tack. Here’s one analogy:
OK
I can consciously choose to open my eyes, or to close my eyes. This is analogous to consciously opening one’s mind to evidence, or refusing to look at evidence, which may affect one’s belief. However, once I choose to open my eyes, if I see a mudpie, I cannot consciously choose to see a birthday cake, no matter how much I desire that it was a cake instead of mud. This is analogous to the fact that we cannot consciously choose to believe something simply because we desire it to be true.
Same logical error as above. No rational, sane person could persuade himself to believe that that a mud-pie is a birthday cake, either instantaneously or over time. On the other hand, I just might delude myself someday into believing that young, hot chicks physically dig old men because the latter possess so much wisdom and experience. Indeed, I talked myself into it while I was writing. Do you grasp the difference?
The point seems utterly obvious to me. If I consciously chose to believe in a tooth fairy, I would know that this belief came about simply because I chose to believe it, and not because there is actually a tooth fairy. I would thus know that I had no reason to trust my belief, and I would not really believe it.
What is obvious to me is that you are missing the point rather spectacularly with your impossible to believe examples. [The way we behave can affect the way we think]
No need for surprise here, because I have acknowledged this over and over again. Here’s just a few of the times I’ve acknowledged (and addressed) this point upthread:
Let’s find out if you have, indeed, acknowledged the point—or if you even grasp it.
RDF: You can choose to reflect on your beliefs, or seek different perspectives from other people or books and so on, and these choices may lead you to believe new things of course.
That is not nearly the same as trying to reconcile your belief system with your behavior. Not even close. and
RDF: We make all sorts of choices that affect our lives, and these may affect our future beliefs.
Again, not even close. and
RDF: The point is, we can take actions that might influence our future thoughts in all sorts of ways, but that is completely different from choosing our beliefs.
Again, this has nothing to do with rationalization.
If you mean he had consciously decided to adopt his belief simply because he wanted it to be true, again I must insist that people really are not capable of doing that.
You can insist all day long, but you will be wrong. I can illustrate the point from a number of different perspectives. Let’s begin with this one: From Wikipedia on Rationalization: “A rather different, but perhaps complementary, approach to rationalization comes from cognitive dissonance. 'In 1957. Leon Festinger...argued that when people become aware that their attitudes, thoughts, and beliefs ("cognitions") are inconsistent with one another, this realization brings with it an uncomfortable state of tension called cognitive dissonance '.[19] One answer to the discomfort of the situation is that 'their minds rationalize it by inventing a comfortable illusion'.[20] Thus for example 'people who start to smoke again after quitting for a while perceive smoking to be less dangerous to their health, compared to their views when they decided to stop' - thereby averting their 'post-decisional regret'[21] through their new rationalization. In a similar way, acts of aggression will often be seen as 'reasonable, well justified, even necessary...rationalizing their self-interest in these ways'; so that, to cite 'Martin Luther King, Jr...."It seems to be a fact of life that human beings cannot continue to do wrong without eventually reaching out for some rationalization to clothe their act"'.[22] The same may be said of the collective scale. 'When groups commit aggression, they, too, rationalize their acts with high-sounding words...rationalizing their own self-interested desires',[22] so that, for example, 'The own God is the right God. The other God is the strange God....Our own soldiers take care of the poor families; the enemy rapes them'.[23] Such collective rationalizations come close perhaps to the communal illusions of which Freud wrote as 'derived from human wishes...Must not the assumptions that determine our political regulations be called illusions as well? and...may not other cultural assets of which we hold a high opinion and by which we let our lives be ruled be of a similar nature?'.[24]”StephenB
May 3, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
You seem to forget that many people do not base their beliefs on ideas, experiences, reflection, or even on rational evidence, but on the hope and desire that their belief might be true. This desire can cause them to choose a belief that is congenial with their inclinations, as opposed to a belief that if grounded in rationality.
I haven't forgotten; I just disagree. We can't actually believe something just because we desire it to be true. Since we disagree, let's settle our disagreement by appeal to a simple experiment. Ready? 1) Think of something you do not currently believe to be true, but you wish (hope and desire) that it was true. I will do the same - for me, this will be "I desire that there be no more crime in New York City". 2) Now, take whatever it was that you desire to be true, and choose to actually believe it is true. 3) Done? Ok, let's take a look at the results. Do you actually believe that it is true now? I can tell you right now, for me the experiment failed. As much as I'd like it to be the case that there be no more crime in NYC, I still don't believe that is the case. Did it work for you? If not, it seems that we have thus disproven the notion that we can simply and successfully choose to believe something we desire was true but do not already believe. I haven't been very successful in communicating this idea to you, so I'm going to try a different tack. Here's one analogy: I can consciously choose to open my eyes, or to close my eyes. This is analogous to consciously opening one's mind to evidence, or refusing to look at evidence, which may affect one's belief. However, once I choose to open my eyes, if I see a mudpie, I cannot consciously choose to see a birthday cake, no matter how much I desire that it was a cake instead of mud. This is analogous to the fact that we cannot consciously choose to believe something simply because we desire it to be true. The point seems utterly obvious to me. If I consciously chose to believe in a tooth fairy, I would know that this belief came about simply because I chose to believe it, and not because there is actually a tooth fairy. I would thus know that I had no reason to trust my belief, and I would not really believe it.
This gets back to my earlier point, which you have not yet addressed. It is just as true to say that our conduct influences the way we think as it is to say that the way we think influences our conduct. Psychologists refer to this phenomenon as “rationalization. It is very common part of the human condition, and it plays into the formation of many of our beliefs. I am very surprised that you do not acknowledge this point.
No need for surprise here, because I have acknowledged this over and over again. Here's just a few of the times I've acknowledged (and addressed) this point upthread:
RDF: You can choose to reflect on your beliefs, or seek different perspectives from other people or books and so on, and these choices may lead you to believe new things of course. and RDF: We make all sorts of choices that affect our lives, and these may affect our future beliefs. and RDF: The point is, we can take actions that might influence our future thoughts in all sorts of ways, but that is completely different from choosing our beliefs.
Sometimes, we form (and change) our beliefs simply because we want to.
Here's where we disagree still - please re-run the experiment I just outlined to convinced yourself that this really is impossible.
One such belief is manifest at this site quite often, namely the irrational notion that universes can just pop into existence without a cause. Clearly, this is an example of choosing a belief, because it militates against experience, reason, and reflection.
I certainly do not want to change the topic to speculations regarding the origin of the universe(s). But I'm afraid your point here is mistaken: Just because you find such a theory preposterous in no way implies that adherents to such theories chose to believe it by an act of conscious will. Likewise, I'm certain that whatever your particular beliefs are about the origin of universes would seem preposterous to other people, but they would not be justified in assuming that you simply chose your beliefs rather than feeling compelled by experience, reasons, and reflection.
Returning to my earlier example on birth control, I relate my recent experience with an ordained minister. In a very polite way, he said that he disagreed vehemently with the Catholic Church’s teaching on artificial contraception. So I responded with these exact words: “What do you understand that teaching to be?” He didn’t know the first thing about it. In fact, he had chosen to believe against something that he could not even explain, presumably because he wanted to.
If you mean he had consciously decided to adopt his belief simply because he wanted it to be true, again I must insist that people really are not capable of doing that. Please see for yourself by performing the experiment I've described.
So it was with those nominal Catholics that I alluded to earlier, whom I found to be equally uninformed on the subject. They had chosen to believe what they believed. Otherwise, they would have at least been aware of the countervailing arguments against their position–arguments that they simply didn’t want to know about.
Here is what I said to Chance upthread about this sort of situation:
RDF: [P]erhaps you mean you might, based on faulty or incomplete information, arrive at a false belief. Well sure, we do that all the time. But still, if you arrived at a belief for whatever reason, you would not be able to believe its contradiction simply because you decide to. It really seems to me that it’s just not possible – it’s not the way our minds work.
Do you make your choices without any reason?
Certainly I make choices for which I cannot coherently articulate a reason - we all do. We also confabulate reasons, of course (there are fascinating experiments with split-brain patients that illustrate this with painful clarity). What's your point here? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 3, 2013
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Phinehas, Maybe your experience is something like this hypothetical account:
I find my actions are not suited to my desires to be healthy and happy, but I am unable, by act of will, to change my behavior. My desire for change grows stronger, and even though I have no certain belief in a God (and cannot change this even though I try), I find that I am increasingly open to new things to satisfy these desires. And so, I choose to surrender to something outside of myself, to see if it will help. It helps tremendously, and my life turns around. This experience, in turn, convinces me that God exists, and now I believe it.
I see this sort of experience as being utterly consistent with - even supportive of - my views here. My point has never been that we cannot effect positive change in our lives through our choices - only that it is not our conscious will that is capable of changing our beliefs and desires. And so, from outside yourself, I congratulate you on your good choices, and I wish you continued strength, health and happiness. RDFishRDFish
May 3, 2013
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RDFish
What I mean when I say a choice is predicated on nothing is that there are no reasons that account for our choice. If someone making such a choice is asked why they made that particular choice, they could not articulate a relevant reason (again, aside from “Oh, I just did it” or “Why not?” or the reason my father would have given: “Shut up”, he’d explain).
Do you make your choices without any reason?StephenB
May 3, 2013
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RDFish
As I’ve said ad nauseum now, my point is that people cannot change their beliefs or their desires by means of willing them to be different. People’s beliefs do change, however, as a result of exposure to new ideas, new experiences, and even reflection and re-evaluation of the evidence. Review this long thread and you will see that I have said these same things over and over again.
You seem to forget that many people do not base their beliefs on ideas, experiences, reflection, or even on rational evidence, but on the hope and desire that their belief might be true. This desire can cause them to choose a belief that is congenial with their inclinations, as opposed to a belief that if grounded in rationality. This gets back to my earlier point, which you have not yet addressed. It is just as true to say that our conduct influences the way we think as it is to say that the way we think influences our conduct. Psychologists refer to this phenomenon as “rationalization. It is very common part of the human condition, and it plays into the formation of many of our beliefs. I am very surprised that you do not acknowledge this point. Sometimes, we form (and change) our beliefs simply because we want to. One such belief is manifest at this site quite often, namely the irrational notion that universes can just pop into existence without a cause. Clearly, this is an example of choosing a belief, because it militates against experience, reason, and reflection. Returning to my earlier example on birth control, I relate my recent experience with an ordained minister. In a very polite way, he said that he disagreed vehemently with the Catholic Church’s teaching on artificial contraception. So I responded with these exact words: “What do you understand that teaching to be?” He didn’t know the first thing about it. In fact, he had chosen to believe against something that he could not even explain, presumably because he wanted to. So it was with those nominal Catholics that I alluded to earlier, whom I found to be equally uninformed on the subject. They had chosen to believe what they believed. Otherwise, they would have at least been aware of the countervailing arguments against their position--arguments that they simply didn't want to know about.StephenB
May 3, 2013
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RDFish: The thing is, as a recovering addict, I have lived first hand through the process of slowly changing beliefs and desires over time by ongoing, daily acts of the will. Pointing out my desires to be free, healthy, a good father, a good husband, and a good person doesn't really undermine this truth for me. Those desires were with me all along, but they were never enough. I have experienced the power that surrendering to something outside of myself can bring to a man who was powerless to deny his own desires or to overcome his tendency to do the wrong thing. And I know this surrender inevitably leads me to a life that is more rational, not less.Phinehas
May 3, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
Since I am still curious about this, I’ll try to ask it another way. Do you believe it is possible to base/predicate our choices on absolutely nothing at all? If so, could you give an example?
What I mean when I say a choice is predicated on nothing is that there are no reasons that account for our choice. If someone making such a choice is asked why they made that particular choice, they could not articulate a relevant reason (again, aside from "Oh, I just did it" or "Why not?" or the reason my father would have given: "Shut up", he'd explain). An obvious example would be the sorts of choices made by subjects of the well-known experiments on free will conducted by Libet and others, where they were instructed to choose when to press a button, or decide which of two buttons to push, purely at their voluntary discretion. These decisions seems analagous to random mutations in a way. A random mutation caused by, say, a cosmic ray hitting a DNA molecule is random with regard to fitness, but it is not random with regard to the source of the cosmic ray, the physical chemistry of the collision, etc. Similarly, I am not saying these unpredicated choices are causeless; I'm saying their cause (whether they be physical or "immaterial") is not related to the choice that is made.
The reason I’m asking this is that I am trying to figure out whether “beliefs and desires” as you’ve defined them so cover the entire gamut of human experience that you’ve left no room for alternatives on which a choice might be predicated. It’s kind of like the old joke: I know every language but Greek. [Can you say something in Russian?] Russian is Greek to me!
That's a good one. I've tried to think of other sorts of reasons, but in my view they really do boil down to beliefs and desires. One may attribute choices to instinct or genetic predisposition, but obviously that doesn't suggest any sort of freedom at all. Or one might say that values could explain a choice, but it seems to me that we mean the same thing by "I value this good (or state of affairs)" as we do by saying "I desire this good (or state of affairs)".
I cannot easily confirm this simply by introspection. Introspection confirms for me that beliefs are not directly under my conscious control. And experience confirms for me that beliefs are indirectly under my conscious control.
Let's look at this. Imagine I decide to arrange things such that I will eventually believe in Scientology, even though I do not believe in it now, and I cannot simply will myself to believe in it. I voluntarily start attending Scientology meetings and reading Dianetics, in hopes that I will begin to believe that we are inhabited by souls of dead Thetans and so on. At some point, let's say (although this is not assured) I actually do find that I hold these beliefs. Is this an example of freely - albeit indirectly - changing my beliefs by conscious will? I still don't think so. Why, we can ask, did I make the decision to change my beliefs in the first place and start going to Scientology meetings? Well, here we go again: Either that decision was predicated upon unchosen beliefs and desires, or it was predicated on nothing at all.
I don’t believe that saying they did not choose a new belief in the way we choose to perform some action is the same thing as saying they did not choose a new belief. You seem to be making the jump from the former to the latter with ease, but it seems a substantial chasm to me.
Right - sorry but this is more of my sloppy language. I need to be careful to qualify that "choose" here means "choose by means of conscious will". Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 3, 2013
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Hey RDFish:
You see, they did not simply will themselves to believe something new. They did not choose a new belief in the way we choose to perform some action.
I don't believe that saying they did not choose a new belief in the way we choose to perform some action is the same thing as saying they did not choose a new belief. You seem to be making the jump from the former to the latter with ease, but it seems a substantial chasm to me.Phinehas
May 3, 2013
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RDFish:
I have enjoyed our discussion and hate to disappoint...
Me too, and no worries. I wore my big boy pants today. :)
Finally, I observe that either our choices are based on our beliefs and desires or they are not. Unless someone can propose what else we might base our choices on, I conclude that we either base our choices on factors we do not choose or we base our choices on nothing at all.
Since I am still curious about this, I'll try to ask it another way. Do you believe it is possible to base/predicate our choices on absolutely nothing at all? If so, could you give an example? The reason I'm asking this is that I am trying to figure out whether "beliefs and desires" as you've defined them so cover the entire gamut of human experience that you've left no room for alternatives on which a choice might be predicated. It's kind of like the old joke: I know every language but Greek. [Can you say something in Russian?] Russian is Greek to me!
I know that I cannot change my beliefs and desires by means of consciously deliberated decisions
Of your five points, this is really the only one with which I'd take issue.
Since I believe we can easily confirm that beliefs are not under our conscious control simply by introspection, it would appear that it is my viewpoint that has been confirmed.
I cannot easily confirm this simply by introspection. Introspection confirms for me that beliefs are not directly under my conscious control. And experience confirms for me that beliefs are indirectly under my conscious control. 5a) I know that I cannot change my beliefs and desires directly by means of consciously deliberated decisions Can you explain to me how (5a) is a poorer description of reality that your (5)? If you'd simply concluded that we base our choices on factors we do not choose directly, then I might be inclined to agree.Phinehas
May 3, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
How they changed their beliefs is a separate and irrelevant question, given the fact that they did, in fact, change their beliefs and that they chose to make that change. My claim is supported by the historical fact that they did, indeed, choose to change their belief, which is the very thing that you claim cannot happen.
As I've said ad nauseum now, my point is that people cannot change their beliefs or their desires by means of willing them to be different. People's beliefs do change, however, as a result of exposure to new ideas, new experiences, and even reflection and re-evaluation of the evidence. Review this long thread and you will see that I have said these same things over and over again. History certainly does not show that these people changed their beliefs simply by means of their conscious will, the way we can initiate actions with our conscious will. Here again is what I was saying about how we might assess whether these people's beliefs changed by means of sheer will or not: If we asked these people how they came to their new belief regarding birth control, and they replied “I decided to believe that artificial birth control was moral rather than immoral, and upon making that decision, my belief changed”, then you would be right: I would agree that these people did actually change their beliefs simply by willing it. But I do not think that these people would say that! On the contrary, they most likely would reply with something like "After talking with these secularists I've come to believe that birth control doesn't hurt anyone, and there is no actual prohibition about it in the Bible, and for these reasons I now believe it is moral." And so my position would be correct. You see, they did not simply will themselves to believe something new. They did not choose a new belief in the way we choose to perform some action. Rather, they reasoned from their other beliefs and desires and found that their belief about this had changed. I hope I have been sufficiently clear this time! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 3, 2013
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