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Bacteria thrive on land 100 million years earlier than thought? Oxydizing minerals, just like today?

Modern mine waste water supports bacteria like those from 2.48 billion years ago/University of Alberta

From “New Evidence for the Oldest Oxygen-Breathing Life On Land”
(ScienceDaily, Oct. 19, 2011), we learn:

New University of Alberta research shows the first evidence that the first oxygen-breathing bacteria occupied and thrived on land 100 million years earlier than previously thought. The researchers show that the most primitive form of aerobic-respiring life on land came into existence 2.48 billion years ago.

“We suggest that the jump in chromium levels was triggered by the oxidation of the mineral pyrite (fool’s gold) on land,” said Konhauser.

The researchers say the modern analogue for that first primitive oxygen-dependent life form on Earth is still with us.

“The same bacterial life forms are alive and well today, living off pyrite and settling in the highly acidic waste waters of mining sites the world over,” said Konhauser.

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49 Responses to Bacteria thrive on land 100 million years earlier than thought? Oxydizing minerals, just like today?

  1. As to:

    “The same bacterial life forms are alive and well today, living off pyrite and settling in the highly acidic waste waters of mining sites the world over,” said Konhauser.

    notes:

    AMBER: THE LOOKING GLASS INTO THE PAST:
    Excerpt: These (fossilized bacteria) cells are actually very similar to present day cyanobacteria. This is not only true for an isolated case but many living genera of cyanobacteria can be linked to fossil cyanobacteria. The detail noted in the fossils of this group gives indication of extreme conservation of morphology, more extreme than in other organisms.
    http://bcb705.blogspot.com/200.....st_23.html

    Static evolution: is pond scum the same now as billions of years ago?
    Excerpt: But what intrigues (paleo-biologist) J. William Schopf most is lack of change. Schopf was struck 30 years ago by the apparent similarities between some 1-billion-year-old fossils of blue-green bacteria and their modern microbial microbial. “They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species,” Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. “This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times,” says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found;
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/.....a014909330

    Odd Geometry of Bacteria May Provide New Way to Study Earth’s Oldest Fossils – May 2010
    Excerpt: Known as stromatolites, the layered rock formations are considered to be the oldest fossils on Earth.,,,That the spacing pattern corresponds to the mats’ metabolic period — and is also seen in ancient rocks — shows that the same basic physical processes of diffusion and competition seen today were happening billions of years ago,,,
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....152520.htm

    Bacterial Heavy Metal Detoxification and Resistance Systems:
    Excerpt: Bacterial plasmids contain genetic determinants for resistance systems for Hg2+ (and organomercurials), Cd2+, AsO2, AsO43-, CrO4 2-, TeO3 2-, Cu2+, Ag+, Co2+, Pb2+, and other metals of environmental concern.,, Recombinant DNA analysis has been applied to mercury, cadmium, zinc, cobalt, arsenic, chromate, tellurium and copper resistance systems.
    http://www.springerlink.com/co.....04577v8t3/

    The role of bacteria in hydrogeochemistry, metal cycling and ore deposit formation:
    Textures of sulfide minerals formed by SRB (sulfate-reducing bacteria) during bioremediation (most notably pyrite and sphalerite) have textures reminiscent of those in certain sediment-hosted ores, supporting the concept that SRB may have been directly involved in forming ore minerals.
    http://www.goldschmidt2009.org...../A1161.pdf

    Planet’s Nitrogen Cycle Overturned – Oct. 2009
    Excerpt: “Ammonia is a waste product that can be toxic to animals.,,, archaea can scavenge nitrogen-containing ammonia in the most barren environments of the deep sea, solving a long-running mystery of how the microorganisms can survive in that environment. Archaea therefore not only play a role, but are central to the planetary nitrogen cycles on which all life depends.,,,the organism can survive on a mere whiff of ammonia – 10 nanomolar concentration, equivalent to a teaspoon of ammonia salt in 10 million gallons of water.”
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....132656.htm

    As well, in conjunction with bacteria, geological processes helped detoxify the earth of dangerous levels of metal:

    The Concentration of Metals for Humanity’s Benefit:
    Excerpt: They demonstrated that hydrothermal fluid flow could enrich the concentration of metals like zinc, lead, and copper by at least a factor of a thousand. They also showed that ore deposits formed by hydrothermal fluid flows at or above these concentration levels exist throughout Earth’s crust. The necessary just-right precipitation conditions needed to yield such high concentrations demand extraordinary fine-tuning. That such ore deposits are common in Earth’s crust strongly suggests supernatural design.
    http://www.reasons.org/TheConc.....tysBenefit

    The Creation of Minerals:
    Excerpt: Thanks to the way life was introduced on Earth, the early 250 mineral species have exploded to the present 4,300 known mineral species. And because of this abundance, humans possessed all the necessary mineral resources to easily launch and sustain global, high-technology civilization.
    http://www.reasons.org/The-Creation-of-Minerals

    “Today there are about 4,400 known minerals – more than two-thirds of which came into being only because of the way life changed the planet. Some of them were created exclusively by living organisms” – Bob Hazen – Smithsonian Magazine – Oct. 2010, pg. 54

    Coincidence, I think NOT! Or as Frank Turek would say, ‘I ain’t got enough faith to be an atheist!’

    verse and music:

    Isaiah 45:18
    For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

    Walk By Faith – Jeremy Camp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgWOcYpHm0o

  2. further notes:

    The Microbial Engines That Drive Earth’s Biogeochemical Cycles
    Excerpt: Microbial life can easily live without us; we, however, cannot survive without the global catalysis and environmental transformations it provides.- Paul G. Falkowski – Professor Geological Sciences – Rutgers
    http://www.genetics.iastate.edu/delong1.pdf

    Biologically mediated cycles for hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, sulfur, and iron – graph image of interdependent ‘biogeochemical’ web
    http://www.sciencemag.org/cont......large.jpg

    Moreover stunningly, as if that was not surprising enough, a complex ‘biogeochemical balance’ is also found to extend all the into how the metabolism of higher lifeforms operate:

    Michael Denton – We Are Stardust – Uncanny Balance Of The Elements – Fred Hoyle Atheist to Deist/Theist – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003877

    Further note:

    On the third page of this following site there is a bit easier to understand illustration that shows some of the interdependent, ‘life-enabling’, biogeochemical complexity of different types of bacterial life on Earth.,,,

    Microbial Mat Ecology – Image on page 92 (third page down)
    http://www.dsls.usra.edu/biolo.....nit2.2.pdf

    ,,,Please note, that if even one type of bacteria group did not exist in this complex cycle of biogeochemical interdependence, that was illustrated on the preceding sites, then all of the different bacteria would soon die out. This essential biogeochemical interdependence, of the most primitive different types of bacteria that we have evidence of on ancient earth, makes the origin of life ‘problem’ for neo-Darwinists that much worse. For now not only do neo-Darwinists have to explain how the ‘miracle of life’ happened once with the origin of photosynthetic bacteria, but they must now also explain how all these different types bacteria, that photosynthetic bacteria are dependent on, in this complex biogeochemical web, miraculously arose just in time to supply the necessary nutrients, in their biogeochemical link in the chain, for photosynthetic bacteria to continue to survive. As well, though not clearly illustrated in the illustration on the preceding site, please note that a long term tectonic cycle, of the turnover the Earth’s crustal rocks, must also be fine-tuned to a certain degree with the bacteria and thus plays a important ‘foundational’ role in the overall ecology of the biogeochemical system that must be accounted for as well.

  3. This essential biogeochemical interdependence, of the most primitive different types of bacteria that we have evidence of on ancient earth, makes the origin of life ‘problem’ for neo-Darwinists that much worse.

    Someone must have pointed out at some time in the past that “neo-Darwinism” has absolutely nothing to say on the origin of life? No? Allow me to be the first. neo-Darwinism (an increasingly archaic term) is the study of interacting replicators, however caused, and their broader consequences. There must be more than one, and they must be replicators, before any kind of evolutionary (or ecological) process can commence.

    For now not only do neo-Darwinists have to explain how the ‘miracle of life’ happened once with the origin of photosynthetic bacteria

    No. If it happened deep in the oceans – or even if it didn’t – photosynthesis had absolutely nothing to do with it. The likeliest precedent state is chemotrophy – harvesting the redox potential in inorganic molecules.

    but they must now also explain how all these different types bacteria, that photosynthetic bacteria are dependent on, in this complex biogeochemical web, miraculously arose just in time to supply the necessary nutrients, in their biogeochemical link in the chain, for photosynthetic bacteria to continue to survive.

    Is it miraculous that the internet arose just in time to allow Google to have something to run on? Do roofs exist in order that pigeons may roost upon them? Pre-existing states create opportunities, and interdependence can be tuned to the point where the modern system cannot be disentangled. You seem to be suggesting that “neo-Darwinists” have trouble explaining how ecosystems can arise. That would be news to the neo-Darwinist. Or maybe you think that the age of these fossils telescopes the time-frame to an impossibly short one? We may have over a billion years to play with, between OOL and 2.48bya.

  4. Actually I just look at Darwinian presuppositions and find them ludicrous as to what the actual evidence says. If you find comfort in the many extremely forced ‘just so’ stories (excuses), so be it. But a spade is a spade and these findings are contrary to materialistic expectations, to put it mildly.

  5. Actually I just look at Darwinian presuppositions and find them ludicrous as to what the actual evidence says. If you find comfort in the many extremely forced ‘just so’ stories (excuses), so be it.

    This is a specific matter, not the panoply of “Darwinian” presuppositions. If you think that you can look at a community and simply reject all materialistic notions as to how that community may have arisen, and its modern interdependencies become more tightly coupled … well, I am somewhat flabbergasted. I hesitated before posting in reply to you, and perhaps I should have stuck with my first instinct.

    But a spade is a spade and these findings are contrary to materialistic expectations, to put it mildly.

    They are entirely in accord with materialistic expectations. You appear to reject material causes, or circumscribe by nothing more than guesswork the realm of their applicability, but they certainly are in accord with them.

  6. Chas find comfort in whatever excuse you may make up. I personally don’t care what you believe. The point is that the evidence certainly does not fit materialistically expectations for life accidentally evolving from a ‘warm little pond’: In fact everything we know gives clear indication that a materialistic origin of life is impossible;

    Refutation Of Hyperthermophile Origin Of Life scenario
    Excerpt: While life, if appropriately designed, can survive under extreme physical and chemical conditions, it cannot originate under those conditions. High temperatures are especially catastrophic for evolutionary models. The higher the temperature climbs, the shorter the half-life for all the crucial building block molecules,
    http://www.reasons.org/LateHea.....iginofLife

    The origin of life–did it occur at high temperatures?
    Excerpt: Prebiotic chemistry points to a low-temperature origin because most biochemicals decompose rather rapidly at temperatures of 100 degrees C (e.g., half-lives are 73 min for ribose, 21 days for cytosine, and 204 days for adenine).
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11539558

    Chemist explores the membranous origins of the first living cell:
    Excerpt: Conditions in geothermal springs and similar extreme environments just do not favor membrane formation, which is inhibited or disrupted by acidity, dissolved salts, high temperatures, and calcium, iron, and magnesium ions. Furthermore, mineral surfaces in these clay-lined pools tend to remove phosphates and organic chemicals from the solution. “We have to face up to the biophysical facts of life,” Deamer said. “Hot, acidic hydrothermal systems are not conducive to self-assembly processes.”
    http://currents.ucsc.edu/05-06/04-03/deamer.asp

    Nick Lane Takes on the Origin of Life and DNA – Jonathan McLatchie – July 2010
    Excerpt: numerous problems abound for the hydrothermal vent hypothesis for the origin of life,,,, For example, as Stanley Miller has pointed out, the polymers are “too unstable to exist in a hot prebiotic environment.” Miller has also noted that the RNA bases are destroyed very quickly in water when the water boils. Intense heating also has the tendency to degrade amino acids such as serine and threonine. A more damning problem lies in the fact that the homochirality of the amino acids is destroyed by heating.
    Of course, accounting for the required building blocks is an interesting problem, but from the vantage of ID proponents, it is only one of many problems facing materialistic accounts of the origin of life. After all, it is the sequential arrangement of the chemical constituents — whether that happens to be amino acids in proteins, or nucleotides in DNA or RNA — to form complex specified information (a process which requires the production of specified irregularity), which compellingly points toward the activity of rational deliberation (Intelligence).
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....36101.html

    Besides hydrothermal vents, it is also commonly, and erroneously, presumed in many grade school textbooks that life slowly arose in a primordial ocean of pre-biotic soup. Yet there are no chemical signatures in the geologic record indicating that a ocean of this pre-biotic soup ever existed. In fact, as stated earlier, the evidence indicates that complex photosynthetic life appeared on earth as soon as water appeared on earth with no chemical signature whatsoever of prebiotic activity.

    The Primordial Soup Myth:
    Excerpt: “Accordingly, Abelson(1966), Hull(1960), Sillen(1965), and many others have criticized the hypothesis that the primitive ocean, unlike the contemporary ocean, was a “thick soup” containing all of the micromolecules required for the next stage of molecular evolution. The concept of a primitive “thick soup” or “primordial broth” is one of the most persistent ideas at the same time that is most strongly contraindicated by thermodynamic reasoning and by lack of experimental support.” – Sidney Fox, Klaus Dose on page 37 in Molecular Evolution and the Origin of Life. http://theory-of-evolution.net.....p-myth.php

    New Research Rejects 80-Year Theory of ‘Primordial Soup’ as the Origin of Life – Feb. 2010
    “Despite bioenergetic and thermodynamic failings the 80-year-old concept of primordial soup remains central to mainstream thinking on the origin of life, But soup has no capacity for producing the energy vital for life.”
    William Martin – an evolutionary biologist
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....101245.htm

    Moreover, water is considered a ‘universal solvent’ which is a very thermodynamic obeying and thus origin of life defying fact.

    Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis – Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D.
    Excerpt: The synthesis of proteins and nucleic acids from small molecule precursors represents one of the most difficult challenges to the model of prebiological evolution. There are many different problems confronted by any proposal. Polymerization is a reaction in which water is a product. Thus it will only be favored in the absence of water. The presence of precursors in an ocean of water favors depolymerization of any molecules that might be formed. Careful experiments done in an aqueous solution with very high concentrations of amino acids demonstrate the impossibility of significant polymerization in this environment. A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10^-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^85 liters. At 10^-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds. So we must look elsewhere for a mechanism to produce polymers. It will not happen in the ocean.
    http://origins.swau.edu/papers.....fault.html

    Professor Arthur E. Wilder-Smith “Any amounts of polypeptide which might be formed will be broken down into their initial components (amino acids) by the excess of water. The ocean is thus practically the last place on this or any other planet where the proteins of life could be formed spontaneously from amino acids. Yet nearly all text-books of biology teach this nonsense to support evolutionary theory and spontaneous biogenesis … Has materialistic Neo-Darwinian philosophy overwhelmed us to such an extent that we forget or overlook the well-known facts of science and of chemistry in order to support this philosophy? … Without exception all Miller’s amino acids are completely unsuitable for any type of spontaneous biogenesis. And the same applies to all and any randomly formed substances and amino acids which form racemates. This statement is categorical and absolute and cannot be affected by special conditions.”
    http://theevolutioncrisis.org.uk/testimony3.php

    A Substantial Conundrum Confronting The Chemical Origin Of Life – August 2011
    Excerpt: 1. Peptide bond formation is an endothermic reaction. This means that the reaction requires the absorption of energy: It does not take place spontaneously.
    2. Peptide bond formation is a condensation reaction. It hence involves the net removal of a water molecule. So not only can this reaction not happen spontaneously in an aqueous medium, but, in fact, the presence of water inhibits the reaction.
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....n-of-life/

    Sea Salt only adds to this thermodynamic problem:

    …even at concentrations seven times weaker than in today’s oceans. The ingredients of sea salt are very effective at dismembering membranes and preventing RNA units (monomers) from forming polymers any longer than two links (dimers). Creation Evolution News – Sept. 2002

    etc.. etc.. etc..

  7. Perhaps you would care to demonstrate that a protein can spontaneously arise??? at least you would be in a land reality instead of a land of pure fantasy!!!

    Evolution vs. Functional Proteins – Doug Axe – Video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4018222

    The Theist holds the Intellectual High-Ground – March 2011
    Excerpt: To get a range on the enormous challenges involved in bridging the gaping chasm between non-life and life, consider the following: “The difference between a mixture of simple chemicals and a bacterium, is much more profound than the gulf between a bacterium and an elephant.” (Dr. Robert Shapiro, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, NYU)
    http://www.faithfulnews.com/co.....ing-gospel

    Scientists Prove Again that Life is the Result of Intelligent Design – Rabbi Moshe Averick – August 2011
    Excerpt: “To go from bacterium to people is less of a step than to go from a mixture of amino acids to a bacterium.” – Dr. Lynn Margulis
    http://www.algemeiner.com/2011.....nt-design/

    Dr. Don Johnson lays out some of the probabilities for life in this following video:

    Probabilities Of Life – Don Johnson PhD. – 38 minute mark of video
    a typical functional protein – 1 part in 10^175
    the required enzymes for life – 1 part in 10^40,000
    a living self replicating cell – 1 part in 10^340,000,000
    http://www.vimeo.com/11706014

    Programming of Life – Probability of a Cell Evolving – video
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Pr.....yTUSe99z6o

    Dr. Morowitz did another probability calculation working from the thermodynamic perspective with a already existing cell and came up with this number:

    DID LIFE START BY CHANCE?
    Excerpt: Molecular biophysicist, Horold Morowitz (Yale University), calculated the odds of life beginning under natural conditions (spontaneous generation). He calculated, if one were to take the simplest living cell and break every chemical bond within it, the odds that the cell would reassemble under ideal natural conditions (the best possible chemical environment) would be one chance in 10^100,000,000,000. You will have probably have trouble imagining a number so large, so Hugh Ross provides us with the following example. If all the matter in the Universe was converted into building blocks of life, and if assembly of these building blocks were attempted once a microsecond for the entire age of the universe. Then instead of the odds being 1 in 10^100,000,000,000, they would be 1 in 10^99,999,999,916 (also of note: 1 with 100 billion zeros following would fill approx. 20,000 encyclopedias)
    http://members.tripod.com/~Black_J/chance.html

    Further note:

    Materialistic argument

    Premise One: No materialistic cause of specified complex information is known.
    Conclusion: Therefore, it must arise from some unknown materialistic cause

    On the other hand, Stephen Meyer describes the intelligent design argument as follows:

    “Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no material causes have been discovered that demonstrate the power to produce large amounts of specified information.
    “Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information.
    “Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the information in the cell.”

    There remains one and only one type of cause that has shown itself able to create functional information like we find in cells, books and software programs — intelligent design. We know this from our uniform experience and from the design filter — a mathematically rigorous method of detecting design. Both yield the same answer. (William Dembski and Jonathan Witt, Intelligent Design Uncensored: An Easy-to-Understand Guide to the Controversy, p. 90 (InterVarsity Press, 2010).)

    Stephen C. Meyer – The Scientific Basis For the Intelligent Design Inference – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4104651

  8. bornagain77, you seem determined to leap between the origin of life and the origin of ecosystems. I am not, as you say, compelled to join you in your gymnastics. If you find comfort in your intellectual approach to science, good luck.

  9. Whatever!

  10. Whatever!

    From which we can conclude that you are – what – 14, 15? At least it is succinct, which is more than I can say for its predecessors.

    Consider:
    1) Abiogenesis vs intelligent-first-cell-ism
    2) Natural vs directed evolution of individual lineages
    3) Natural vs directed construction/maintenance of ecological communities

    These are legitimate distinctions, because there are different processes, different levels of interaction, and different opportunities for natural or guided processes to operate.

    You don’t think it important to look at one thing at a time? Just … all of it? It’s all tosh?

  11. Whatever Chas!!! Chas, let’s make this a lot more clear for you so as to eliminate half of your conjectures above! Please show just one example of neo-Darwinian processes generating even 1 functional protein; Venema, who is a lot more knowledgeable on the subject than you are, was challenged on this specific point, and here was what his ‘prize’ literature citation had to say about the subject:

    Excerpt: However, these experiments do not really model the evolution that occurs through gradual, step-by-step changes, with all intermediates being fully foldable proteins (Blanco et al., 1999). To create such an evolutionarily relevant path from all-a to all-b domains would be the next challenge for protein designers.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....52061.html

    Now Chas, honestly, do you think anyone has any scientific right whatsoever to presuppose that neo-Darwinian evolution can happen when NO ONE has even established that it can be done for a single ‘simple protein’??? Even a 14 or 15 year old can see that neo-Darwinists are stark raving mad for presupposing that all life arose by accidental processes with no foundation, at all, for such conjecture.

  12. Whatever, bornag!!! Show me just one example of intelligence creating a replicating chemical system from inorganic components. NO ONE has established that this is feasible. I’m sure that challenge does nothing to defuse your viewpoint, so I’m not sure why you think its equivalent (admittedly in the rather different milieu of evolution) might slay the material-causes one.

  13. Chas ,,, you state a very bold statement here, ‘NO ONE has established that this is feasible.

    Really Chas, Not even feasible for intelligence????

    Self-replicating Robots
    http://video.google.com/videop.....8169667271

  14. As well Chas, As to man trying to intelligently design a single functional protein we learn something very interesting:

    Creating Life in the Lab: How New Discoveries in Synthetic Biology Make a Case for the Creator – Fazale Rana
    Excerpt of Review: ‘Another interesting section of Creating Life in the Lab is one on artificial enzymes. Biological enzymes catalyze chemical reactions, often increasing the spontaneous reaction rate by a billion times or more. Scientists have set out to produce artificial enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions not used in biological organisms. Comparing the structure of biological enzymes, scientists used super-computers to calculate the sequences of amino acids in their enzymes that might catalyze the reaction they were interested in. After testing dozens of candidates,, the best ones were chosen and subjected to “in vitro evolution,” which increased the reaction rate up to 200-fold. Despite all this “intelligent design,” the artificial enzymes were 10,000 to 1,000,000,000 times less efficient than their biological counterparts. Dr. Rana asks the question, “is it reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes routinely accomplished this task?”
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801072093

  15. ChasD:

    “Show me just one example of intelligence creating a replicating chemical system from inorganic components.”
    =====

    Gerald Joyce’s multiple Intelligent Designing experiments are prime examples what just how it takes an intelligent mind/s to accomplish anything. He apparently knows better than to offer some failed dirt watching experiment and get himself laughed at by the scientific world. Besides, hijacking I.D. concepts and attaching evolutionary lables to them and finally loading up a fable with massive amounts of personification fallacies into a mythical fantasy world will bring in more future research money than being honest and coming clean with what he actually proved.

  16. BA77:

    “As well Chas, As to man trying to intelligently design a single functional protein we learn something very interesting:”
    ====

    For that matter, you may add any Evolutionist working on any type of OOL/RNA-World fable from Miller/Urey onwards. When asked what the intelligent fingerprints of the scientists conducting these experiments represent, (1) blind undirected forces without purpose, goals or intent, or (2) Intelligent Design ??? These people incredibly will deny their own intelligences every single time. They’re clearly incapable of denying their own faith even when presented with the fraud it truly is.

  17. Chas ,,, you state a very bold statement here, ‘NO ONE has established that this is feasible.‘

    Really Chas, Not even feasible for intelligence????

    Self-replicating Robots

    You will note that I said CHEMICAL. A self-replicating CHEMICAL system. There are issues with molecules that are not issues for materials. Try again.

  18. ChasD:

    “You seem to be suggesting that “neo-Darwinists” have trouble explaining how ecosystems can arise.”
    ====

    They can’t even explain or show us just how to save the ones presently going extinct as a result of their own misuse and abuse of science. How do you expect Neo-Dariwnism to explain their arise in the first place ???

  19. Eocene, this reminds me of Axe’s April 1st retort to Lincoln and Joyce;

    Biologic Institute Announces First Self-Replicating Motor Vehicle — April 1st, 2009 by Douglas Axe
    Excerpt: Researchers at Biologic Institute have stunned the scientific community with the announcement today of a fully functioning automobile capable of replicating itself. Although simple autocatalytic versions of self-replication have previously been demonstrated, the complexity of the system described today—complete with GPS navigation, DVD player, and onboard WiFi—has taken everyone by surprise. In the minds of many, this discovery has forever altered the once fundamental distinction between life and non-life.

    Reactions from the automotive industry have, understandably, been less philosophical. One executive, who wished to remain unnamed, characterized the development as “altogether unhelpful.” An assembly plant worker was less restrained: “This is unreal… I just hope they quarantine the [expletive] things before this gets out of hand.”

    According to lead scientist Otto Cloner, “In the right kind of environment the process of self-replication just takes off. I still get goose bumps watching it.” The prototype self-replicator is a slightly modified version of the popular Jeep Wrangler—unmanned. When just one of these self-propelled prototypes is placed in an appropriate environment (one lacking any other self-propelled vehicles) magic happens. Or so it seems. Dr. Cloner himself takes the more modest view that “the replicative mechanism is really quite simple when properly understood”.

    Describing the process as being “sensitive to environmental conditions”, Cloner explained that the most critical requirement seems to be a generous supply of the right kind of precursors. “We’ve done a lot of fiddling with the conditions, and one very consistent pattern is that the precursors need to be pretty much fully loaded Wranglers perched on narrow wooden blocks, with engines running in low gear. We looked at more stripped-down precursors, but the DVD and GPS were lost very early in the replication process under those conditions. [We are] still trying to pinpoint exactly what’s going on there.”,,,
    http://biologicinstitute.org/2.....r-vehicle/

  20. look above you chas (in more ways than one! :) )

  21. ChasD:

    “Show me just one example of intelligence creating a replicating chemical system from inorganic components.”
    =====

    Gerald Joyce’s multiple Intelligent Designing experiments are prime examples what just how it takes an intelligent mind/s to accomplish anything.

    I think you miss the point of the quoted text. Joyce uses evolutionary principles in molecular design. That is not “creating a replicating chemical system from inorganic components”, but using a kind of directed evolution to devise molecules, which are created in a completely non-complex state wrt each other. I certainly don’t deny that intelligence can do what evolution is purported to be capable of. It would be surprising if intelligence could not marshal material causes such as selection on gross objects, and of course it can. We can talk about evolution, or we can talk about abiogenesis, but they are two very different mechanistic systems, which is the point I was really trying to get across.

  22. ChasD:

    “You seem to be suggesting that “neo-Darwinists” have trouble explaining how ecosystems can arise.”
    ====

    They can’t even explain or show us just how to save the ones presently going extinct as a result of their own misuse and abuse of science. How do you expect Neo-Dariwnism to explain their arise in the first place ???

    I think you are laying a little too much at the door of this particular group of scientists, however much you may despise them. I don’t think neo-Darwinists are responsible for the loss of biodiversity! :0)

    Arguably, however, those scientists who have helped work out how to increase crop yields, counteract infertility, or stave off death and disease … they are arguably creating a circumstance that, in the long run, will probably have some disastrous consequences for other species and for ourselves. Does this mean that the scientific endeavour were best never started? Dunno. But understanding the limits to growth is very much a “Darwinian” thing to do. And hoping that ‘intelligence’ will save us? … doesn’t look like it’s going to be ours.

  23. and we have from Joyce’s work on self replication,,,

    So, advertising this as “self-replication” is a bit like advertising something as “free” when the actual deal is 1 free for every 1,600 purchased. It’s even worse, though, because you need lots of the pre-made precursors in cozy proximity to a finished RNA in order to kick the process off. That makes the real deal more like n free for every 1,600 n purchased, with the caveats that n must be a very large number and that full payment must be made in advance.

    so remove the 1,600n purchased by intelligence and you have nothing free for evolutionary processes to claim,,, But alas such tripe is what neo-Darwinists constantly sell

  24. BA77

    “Eocene, this reminds me of Axe’s April 1st retort to Lincoln and Joyce;”

    “Biologic Institute Announces First Self-Replicating Motor Vehicle — April 1st, 2009 by Douglas Axe
    Excerpt: Researchers at Biologic Institute have stunned the scientific community with the announcement today of a fully functioning automobile capable of replicating itself.”
    =====

    Always illustrate Absurdity with more absurdity. And the hilarious thing here is that this perfectly illustrates how you create a fable/myth and hope guillible fools out there are ignorant enough to swallow it whole.

    Another thing that stinks is when they try and excuse their usage of intelligent design like what was mentioned a few days ago here in the Explosion thread by use of word games. They have a canned answer for everything.
    ******

    Petrushka:

    “Darwin spent the first section of “Origin” discussing artificial selection. What makes you think directed evolution isn’t “Darwinian”?
    *******

    Directed Evolution ???

    This is one of their favourite misnomers or more appropriately Oxymorons. How often do we have to remind these people of their very own core beliefs and articles of faith ??? Evolution is directionLESS!!!

    Joyce and others call this “directed evolution” and “selection,” yet it is clear that every step of the way Gerald Joyce and the other Lab Coats were doing the directing and selecting with the help of a computer they designed. The funny thing is as was pointed out in the bottom of your quote, once the catalyst runs out the chemcial reaction stops. This is the same thing anyone with half a brain can observe at your local Auto Body Shop when the mechanic mixes in the hardening catatlyst in with the Bondo. Or how about E-POX-E Resin which also needs a catalyst in order to react and accomplish a purpose for which it was created.

    Yet, the religious followers of this FAITH will pick up all these lies and attach them as one of their own, practically defending it to the death and looking STUPID in the process.

  25. look above you chas (in more ways than one!)

    Stars, mate. Beautiful stars. Cradle of nucleosynthesis. Whether, hidden amongst them, is an entity that can suspend physics for long enough to get a bunch of these molecules into position to create a fully functioning replicating cell … it is an interesting proposition, but I’m after mechanism. How things work. If it is ineffable, unknowable, just ‘cos etc, it ain’t much to go on as an alternative to material cause. The same goes for the more prosaic “above”.

  26. And again: evolution. With ‘pre-owned’ organic ingredients. Not abiogenesis. From scratch. Two different things.

  27. Despite all this “intelligent design,” the artificial enzymes were 10,000 to 1,000,000,000 times less efficient than their biological counterparts. Dr. Rana asks the question, “is it reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes routinely accomplished this task?”

    Well, given that intelligence clearly fell so far short of the mark set by a few billion years of natural selection … yeah!

  28. well Chas, let’s look a little higher than the stars:

    ‘Pure transcendent information’ is now shown to be ‘conserved’. (i.e. it is shown that all transcendent quantum information which can possibly exist, for all possible physical/material events, past, present, and future, already must exist.) This is since transcendent information exercises direct dominion of the foundational ‘material’ entity of this universe, energy, which cannot be created or destroyed by any known ‘material’ means. i.e. First Law of Thermodynamics.

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. (This experiment provides experimental proof that the teleportation of quantum information in this universe must be complete and instantaneous.)
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....tally.html

    These following studies verified the ‘controlled’ violation of the first law of thermodynamics that I had suspected:

    How Teleportation Will Work -
    Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made.
    http://science.howstuffworks.c.....ation1.htm

    Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page
    Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,”
    http://www.research.ibm.com/qu.....portation/

    Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves – April 2011
    Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost.
    http://www.popsci.com/technolo.....-computing

    Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract
    Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,,
    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/.....2/5389/706

    It is also very interesting to note that the quantum state of a photon is actually defined as ‘infinite information’ in its uncollapsed quantum wave state:

    Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia
    Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,,
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entr.....tcomp/#2.1

    Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh
    Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) — Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport.
    http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/fa.....lPSA2K.pdf

    It should be noted in the preceding paper that Duwell, though he never challenges the mathematical definition of a photon qubit as infinite information, tries to refute Bennett’s interpretation of instantaneous infinite information transfer in teleportation because of what he believes are ‘time constraints’ which would prohibit teleporting ‘backwards in time’. Yet Duwell fails to realize that information is its own completely unique transcendent entity, completely separate from any energy-matter, space-time, constraints in the first place. Moreover This following recent experiment, on top of the previously listed ‘conservation of quantum information’ papers, pretty much blew a hole in Duwell’s objection to Bennett, of teleporting infinite information ‘backwards in time’, simply because he believed there was no such path, or mechanism, to do so:

    Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement – January 2011
    Excerpt: In “ordinary” quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it’s possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call “teleportation in time.” “To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology,” Olson told PhysOrg.com.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....ement.html

    It should also be noted that the preceding experiment pretty much dots all the i’s and crosses all the t’s as far as concretely establishing ‘transcendent information’ as its own unique entity. Its own unique entity that is completely separate from, and dominate of, space-time, matter and energy.

  29. Eocene

    Directed evolution

    This is one of their favourite misnomers or more appropriately Oxymorons. How often do we have to remind these people of their very own core beliefs and articles of faith ??? Evolution is directionLESS!!!

    Where on earth do you get that idea? Evolution contains two main components: drift (directionless) and selection (not directionless). Selection pushes a population in the direction of adaptation to the prevailing conditions. Drift just buffets it about.

    Neither is goal-oriented, which I guess is what you mean. Nonetheless, directed evolution is. That’s what the ‘directed’ modifier conveys: a version of the essentially non-goal-oriented process that is goal-oriented.

  30. More supporting evidence for the transcendent nature of information, and how it interacts with energy, is found in these following studies:

    Single photons to soak up data:
    Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information.
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201

    Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon
    Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.,,, Quantum mechanics dictates some strange things at that scale, so that bit of light could be thought of as both a particle and a wave. As a wave, it passed through all parts of the stencil at once, carrying the “shadow” of the UR with it.
    http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html

    This following experiment clearly shows information is not an ‘emergent property’ of any solid material basis as is dogmatically asserted by some materialists:

    Converting Quantum Bits: Physicists Transfer Information Between Matter and Light
    Excerpt: A team of physicists at the Georgia Institute of Technology has taken a significant step toward the development of quantum communications systems by successfully transferring quantum information from two different groups of atoms onto a single photon.
    http://gtresearchnews.gatech.e.....mtrans.htm

    The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to teleportation:

    Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups
    Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,,
    http://www.rsc.org/chemistrywo.....ammeup.asp

    Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009
    Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,,
    “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....1769/posts

    It is also interesting to note that a Compact Disc crammed with information on it weighs exactly the same as a CD with no information on it whatsoever.,, Here is a video reflecting on some of the characteristics of transcendent information:

    Information? What Is It Really? Professor Andy McIntosh – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/4739025

    But to reflect just a bit more on the teleportation experiment itself, is interesting to note that scientists can only ‘destroy’ a photon in these quantum teleportation experiments. No one has ‘created’ a photon as of yet. I firmly believe man shall never do as such, since I hold only God is infinite, and perfect, in information/knowledge.

    Job 38:19-20
    “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?”

    Further reflection on the quantum teleportation experiment:

    That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation (separation) of its ‘infinite’ information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (i.e. a photon ‘disappeared’ from the ‘material’ universe when the entire information content of a photon was ‘transcendently displaced’ from the material universe by the experiment, when photon “c” transcendently became transmitted photon “a”). Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. ‘transcendent’ information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where all the energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). To reiterate, since information exercises dominion of energy in quantum teleportation then all information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist.

    Reflections on the ‘infinite transcendent information’ framework, as well as on the ‘eternal’ and ‘temporal’ frameworks:

    The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. Yet, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light. Whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light, its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight.

    Special Relativity – Time Dilation and Length Contraction – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY

    Moreover time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.

    Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/

    ,,,Yet, even though light has this ‘eternal’ attribute in regards to our temporal framework of time, for us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, will still only get us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, is concerned.

    Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182

  31. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light will only get us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light.

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    Experimental confirmation of Time Dilation
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....nfirmation

    It is also very interesting to note that we have two very different qualities of ‘eternality of time’ revealed by our time dilation experiments;

    Time Dilation – General and Special Relativity – Chuck Missler – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/7013215/

    Time dilation
    Excerpt: Time dilation: special vs. general theories of relativity:
    In Albert Einstein’s theories of relativity, time dilation in these two circumstances can be summarized:
    1. –In special relativity (or, hypothetically far from all gravitational mass), clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer accelerating, hypothetically, to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop).
    2.–In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field—such as in closer proximity to a planet—are found to be running slower.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

    i.e. As with any observer accelerating to the speed of light, it is found that for any observer falling into the event horizon of a black hole, that time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop for them. — But of particular interest to the ‘eternal framework’ found for General Relativity at black holes;… It is interesting to note that entropic decay, which is the primary reason why things grow old and eventually die in this universe, is found to be greatest at black holes. Thus the ‘eternality of time’ at black holes can rightly be called ‘eternalities of decay and/or eternalities of destruction’.

    Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010
    Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated.
    http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe

    i.e. Black Holes are singularities of destruction and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order such as the extreme order we see at the creation event of the Big Bang.

    On the Mystery Of Time
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FFKL3FeyebpNNyal1DQ64y20zlplVrjkaLXrM0P5ES4/edit?hl=en_US

    It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, and general relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies:

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony

    ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’
    Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ – Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ – John Star – NDE Experiencer

    What Will Heaven be Like? by Rich Deem
    Excerpt: Since heaven is where God lives, it must contain more physical and temporal dimensions than those found in this physical universe that God created. We cannot imagine, nor can we experience in our current bodies, what these extra dimensions might be like.
    http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/heaven.html

    It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: (Of note: This following video which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)

    Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/

    Here is the interactive website, with link to the relativistic math at the bottom of the page, related to the preceding video;

    Seeing Relativity
    http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Searle/

  32. The collapsing and folding of space-time is also, mysteriously corroborated by NDE testimonies’

    The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions
    Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer)

    Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video
    http://www.vimeo.com/29021432

    Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/

    Speed Of Light – Near Death Experience Tunnel – Turin Shroud – video
    http://www.vimeo.com/18371644

    Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of; this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned).

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane – Child Prodigy

    Logic also dictates ‘a decision’ must have been made, by the ‘transcendent, eternal, infinite information’ from the primary timeless (eternal) reality ‘It’ inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse.

    The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being – William Lane Craig – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914

    As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler’s footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is ‘information’.

    “It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom – at a very deep bottom, in most instances – an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin.” John Archibald Wheeler

    Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe?
    Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.” Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation:

    “Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day.”
    Norbert Weiner – MIT Mathematician – Father of Cybernetics

    Verse and Music:

    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Casting Crowns – The Word Is Alive
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5197438/

  33. OT: Breathtaking Painting Performance – Travis Corey – Music Videos
    http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=F0C00JNU

  34. EXACTLY Charles, hijacking pre-existing living componants. Craig Venter, Gerald Joyce and others continually hijack already living systems and plagerize already existing information to pimp their wares. Yet even still, the best they can come up with is proving it takes an intelligent mind to manipulate material substrate to obtain any type of an outcome. Even a failed one.

  35. ChasD:

    “I think you are laying a little too much at the door of this particular group of scientists, however much you may despise them.”
    ====

    Oh I don’t depise them personally. I despise what is that they do when it comes to irresponsible custodialship of Earth which is motivated by greed and selfishness.
    —-

    ChasD

    “I don’t think neo-Darwinists are responsible for the loss of biodiversity!”
    ====

    If evolution is true, then we live in an amoral world and anything they pursue is neither good nor bad, right nor wrong. Just blind pointless pitiless indifference unconsciously motivated by those selfish degenerative memes. And our present natural world looks it too.

  36. ChasD

    “Neither is goal-oriented, which I guess is what you mean. Nonetheless, directed evolution is. That’s what the ‘directed’ modifier conveys: a version of the essentially non-goal-oriented process that is goal-oriented.”
    ====

    There is no directed evolution Chas. That’s the point of the Dogma’s invention in the first place. “No Intelligence Allowed”. They have never provided an acceptable mindless experiment without reading a bunch of tea leaves to concoct a phoney myth of an explanation.

    Natural Selection is blind and mindless. It’s incapable of doing any intelligent selecting which would clearly be necessary to accomplish some of the amazing things scientific research and observation has revealed to us. This is what every cheating evolutionary experiment has always born out. They know full well they are incapable of providing a true honest experiment using blind undirected processes because not only would they look like fools, but such documentaed failed mindless experiments would etch it in stone for all to see. So for all the making fun of I.D., they are the biggest closet IDiots the world has ever known.

    Natural Selection a euphemism terminology inserted into a discussion or paper when they have no explanation for a phenomena’s apparent unexplainable occurence. It therefore allows them to be excused(at least in their own minds) from providing any reasonable, logical, rational detailed explanation for the subject in question. Ask further questionings of Scientists or try to make them pin them down for clearer details(minus fables and myths) for a reasonable intelligent answer and you become demonized and vilified for questioning science and the phony Phds who pimped the dogma in the first place.

  37. bornagain77

    Boy, you people struggle to stay on topic! You don’t seriously expect me to read all that do you? And follow the links? And play the tune?

    Sometimes, less is more.

  38. Actually Chas, I expect you to know all or the preceding if you expect to speak coherently on the reality of what is truly ‘above you’.

  39. correction:

    all OF the preceding

  40. “I don’t think neo-Darwinists are responsible for the loss of biodiversity!”
    ====

    If evolution is true, then we live in an amoral world and anything they pursue is neither good nor bad, right nor wrong. Just blind pointless pitiless indifference unconsciously motivated by those selfish degenerative memes. And our present natural world looks it too.

    Tripe. You don’t have to believe in … ummm … an ‘intelligent designer’ to behave morally. Including proper respect for the natural world (not that ludicrous “dominion” nonsense some religions peddle. But of course ID isn’t a religious position … I don’t even know why I brought it up).

    EO Wilson is an evolutionary biologist and a prominent campaigner for awareness on biodiversity. How so? I could name many more. You think Darwin, having formulated his theory, turned his back on Nature and Man with a peremptory “screw ‘em!”? Honestly, I don’t know how a religious person reaches the apparent conclusion that those without religion spend their lives conniving, killing, fornicating, double-dealing and chopping down rain forests. Religion is no guarantee of good behaviour or stewardship, nor is its absence any pointer to bad character, or lack of concern for the natural world.

  41. Actually Chas, I expect you to know all or the preceding if you expect to speak coherently on the reality of what is truly ‘above you’.

    Maybe so. Not my specialist subject I’m afraid. Nonetheless, the topic is the genesis (small g) of free-oxygen generating bacteria, the interdependence of the ecosystems in which they take part, and the relevance of Origin-of-Life speculations to that derived ecology.

  42. 42

    Unless morality describes an objective good (which would require an objective purpose for humanity), then saying that one can behave morally is like saying one can cook good food; it’s a entirely subjective statement.

    Note how you say “including proper respect for the natural world” as if there is some objective standard of “what is good” that necessarily includes “respecting the natural world”.

    If I believe that “conniving, killing, fornicating, double-dealing and chopping down rain forests” is good, what standard do you argue I should acquiesce to otherwise?

    It isn’t that theists think materialist/atheists actually believe those things are moral, and behave that way; what theists point out is that atheism/materialism necessarily leads to the logical conclusion that there is nothing inherently “less moral” about those behaviors and motives than in any other behavior or motive.

  43. Chas you state:

    the topic is the genesis (small G) of free-oxygen generating bacteria, the interdependence of the ecosystems in which they take part, and the relevance of Origin-of-Life speculations to that derived ecology.

    OK let’s start by looking at the evidence for oxygenic photosynthesis:

    Non-Local Quantum Entanglement In Photosynthesis – video
    http://vimeo.com/30235178

    notes:

    The Sudden Appearance Of Photosynthetic Life On Earth – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4262918

    The oldest sedimentary rocks on earth, known to science, originated underwater (and thus in relatively cool environs) 3.86 billion years ago. Those sediments, which are exposed at Isua in southwestern Greenland, also contain the earliest chemical evidence (fingerprint) of ‘photosynthetic’ life [Nov. 7, 1996, Nature]. This evidence had been fought by materialists since it is totally contrary to their evolutionary theory. Yet, Danish scientists were able to bring forth another line of geological evidence to substantiate the primary line of geological evidence for photo-synthetic life in the earth’s earliest sedimentary rocks.

    U-rich Archaean sea-floor sediments from Greenland – indications of +3700 Ma oxygenic photosynthesis (2003)
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004E&PSL.217..237R

    When Did Life First Appear on Earth? – Fazale Rana – December 2010
    Excerpt: The primary evidence for 3.8 billion-year-old life consists of carbonaceous deposits, such as graphite, found in rock formations in western Greenland. These deposits display an enrichment of the carbon-12 isotope. Other chemical signatures from these formations that have been interpreted as biological remnants include uranium/thorium fractionation and banded iron formations. Recently, a team from Australia argued that the dolomite in these formations also reflects biological activity, specifically that of sulfate-reducing bacteria.
    http://www.reasons.org/when-di.....pear-earth

    Life – Its Sudden Origin and Extreme Complexity – Dr. Fazale Rana – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4287513

    But perhaps the most damaging thing to the materialistic/Darwinian belief that life simply ‘emerged’ from some prebiotic chemical broth,,, (a hypothetical ‘prebiotic broth’ for which they have no scientific evidence),,,

    The Primordial Soup Myth:
    Excerpt: “Accordingly, Abelson(1966), Hull(1960), Sillen(1965), and many others have criticized the hypothesis that the primitive ocean, unlike the contemporary ocean, was a “thick soup” containing all of the micromolecules required for the next stage of molecular evolution. The concept of a primitive “thick soup” or “primordial broth” is one of the most persistent ideas at the same time that is most strongly contraindicated by thermodynamic reasoning and by lack of experimental support.” – Sidney Fox, Klaus Dose on page 37 in Molecular Evolution and the Origin of Life.

    ,,,is this finding:,,,

    Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Gregory S. Engel, Nature (12 April 2007)
    Photosynthetic complexes are exquisitely tuned to capture solar light efficiently, and then transmit the excitation energy to reaction centres, where long term energy storage is initiated.,,,, This wavelike characteristic of the energy transfer within the photosynthetic complex can explain its extreme efficiency, in that it allows the complexes to sample vast areas of phase space to find the most efficient path. —- Conclusion? Obviously Photosynthesis is a brilliant piece of design by “Someone” who even knows how quantum mechanics works.

    Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years – Feb. 2010
    Excerpt: “We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once — a quantum superposition state, or coherence — and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.”,,, “It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics nearly two billion years before humans,” says Scholes.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....131356.htm

    Life Masters Physics – Feb. 2010
    Excerpt: Collini et al.2 report evidence suggesting that a process known as quantum coherence ‘wires’ together distant molecules in the light-harvesting apparatus of marine cryptophyte algae.,,,“Intriguingly, recent work has documented that light-absorbing molecules in some photosynthetic proteins capture and transfer energy according to quantum-mechanical probability laws instead of classical laws at temperatures up to 180 K,”. ,,, “This contrasts with the long-held view that long-range quantum coherence between molecules cannot be sustained in complex biological systems”
    http://www.creationsafaris.com.....#20100210a

    The reason that this ‘quantum photosynthesis’ finding is absolutely crushing to the atheists’s materialistic belief that life simply ‘emerged’ from some prebiotic chemical broth, is that this reductive materialism, which atheists hold is true for how life came to be on earth (neo-Darwinism), is falsified as to being the ’cause’ for quantum entanglement!:

    Quantum Entanglement – The Failure Of Local Realism/Reductive Materialism – Alain Aspect – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145

  44. continued: The falsification for local realism (reductive materialism) was recently greatly strengthened:

    Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism – November 2010
    Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....alism.html

    Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show – July 2009
    Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....142824.htm

    (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for ‘spooky’ forces, as Einstein termed them — forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.)

    Thus since quantum entanglement is found in photosynthesis, it now logically follows that a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause must be supplied to explain the origination of photosynthesis in the first life on earth as well as all subsequent photosynthetic life on earth! This is more than just a slight problem for materialistic atheists who believe in neo-Darwinism which is based on reductive materialism!!,,, The following video gives a hint of just how ‘spooky’, to use Einstein’s infamous word, it is to find ‘non-local’ quantum action to be necessary for photosynthetic life:

    Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182

    To solidify my basis for inferring the necessity of a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause to explain photosynthesis, I would like to refer to the quantum wave collapse of a photon;

    Double Slit Experiment – Explained By Prof Anton Zeilinger – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6101627/

    Wave function
    Excerpt “wave functions form an abstract vector space”,,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function.

    Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh
    Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1)
    http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/fa.....lPSA2K.pdf

    Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia
    Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,,
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entr.....tcomp/#2.1

    Single photons to soak up data:
    Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information.
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201

    It is important to note that the following experiment actually proved that information can be encoded into a photon while it is in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, that was/is held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into a entity that is not physically real but is merely abstract? It simply would not be possible!

    Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon
    Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.,,, Quantum mechanics dictates some strange things at that scale, so that bit of light could be thought of as both a particle and a wave. As a wave, it passed through all parts of the stencil at once, carrying the “shadow” of the UR with it.
    http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html

    Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! A photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its ‘infinite dimensional’ state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a ’1 or 0? state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, “Exactly what ’cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints, as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon???

    John 1:1-5
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

    Jeremy Camp – The Way (Official Music Video)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q6o4sbndVE

  45. further notes:

    Virtual Particles & Special Relativity of Photons – Michael Strauss PhD. Particle Physics – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4554674

    Fine Tuning Of Universal Constants, Particularly Light – Walter Bradley – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491552

    Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water – graphs
    https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ

    Further notes:

    Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – March 2011
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....tally.html

    Quantum no-deleting theorem
    Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist.

    4-Dimensional Quarter Power Scaling In Biology – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/5964041/

    The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems
    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y

    3D to 4D shift – Carl Sagan – video with notes
    Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VS1mwEV9wA

    The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss & Riemann – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/

    Here is a neat little video clip that I wish was a bit longer (they say a longer one is in the works):

    The Flow – Resonance Film – video
    Description: The Flow, from inside a cell, looks at the supervening layers of reality that we can observe, from quarks to nucleons to atoms and beyond. The deeper we go into the foundations of reality the more it loses its form, eventually becoming a pure mathematical conception.
    http://vimeo.com/groups/7286/videos/25430131

  46. further notes:

    Virtual Particles & Special Relativity of Photons – Michael Strauss PhD. Particle Physics – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4554674

    Fine Tuning Of Universal Constants, Particularly Light – Walter Bradley – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491552

    Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water – graphs
    https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ

    Further notes:

    Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – March 2011
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....tally.html

    Quantum no-deleting theorem – Wikipedia
    Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist.

    4-Dimensional Quarter Power Scaling In Biology – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/5964041/

    The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems
    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y

    3D to 4D shift – Carl Sagan – video with notes
    Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity.

    The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss & Riemann – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/

    Here is a neat little video clip that I wish was a bit longer (they say a longer one is in the works):

    The Flow – Resonance Film – video
    Description: The Flow, from inside a cell, looks at the supervening layers of reality that we can observe, from quarks to nucleons to atoms and beyond. The deeper we go into the foundations of reality the more it loses its form, eventually becoming a pure mathematical conception.
    http://vimeo.com/groups/7286/videos/25430131

  47. ChasD:

    “You think Darwin, having formulated his theory, turned his back on Nature and Man with a peremptory “screw ‘em!”?”
    ====

    No, what Darwin did was invent a belief system which soothed his personal hatred of God because he thought God took his daughter from him. He therefore arrived at a number of materialist conclusions that convinced him that he was correct in his feeling the way he did. For example his materialistic, yet metaphysical reasonings about those Savages encountered in Argentina. Darwin concluded that if there were a God he would not have created such ignorant darker skinned races of Savages and at the same time created superior white races such as himself who were conquering the New World. Therefore he set out to search for evidence that fit his preconceive metaphysical ideas.
    (And if you’ve thought I’m making this up, it came directly off the History Channel as a tribute to your Holyman’s birthday last year)

    If Darwin is correct and Evolution is true, there is no official authoritive standard for what is moral and what is immoral. Morality is whoever and whatever a person or group of persons in power at any one time wants it to be. Therefore to some, cutting down a rainforest is perfectly moral as it furthers their materialistic drive of satifying the lust of their uncontrollable self genes. It’s simply not their fault.
    —-

    ChasD:

    “Honestly, I don’t know how a religious person reaches the apparent conclusion that those without religion spend their lives conniving, killing, fornicating, double-dealing and chopping down rain forests.”
    ====

    If evolution is true, then none of those things that religious people do are are morally wrong either. When you look at the science behind many of the destructive technologies that science has given us, it is easy to see where evolutionary thinking and justification by it’s philosophers has infected other areas of science. The biggest example is the destructive irresponsible technologies of Genetically Modified Organisms. They have no business propagandizing such Franken-Organisms as the only source for saving the world. In actual fact they have already irrepairably spread genetic pollution into the wild.

    The religious philosophy pimped by the promoters of Theory of Evolution allows for cheating, lying, fudging and embellishing the truth, masking or indeed hiding less than flattering truths that dispel evolutionary storytelling, etc. Anyone against Evolution is labled as being against science and is actually called anti-science or hating ALL Science(This of course is a flat out lie, but it is a strategy in debate). These are some of the more common cowardly tactics used by Evolutionists in their fight for promoting their religious worldview. How does this compare with the Mega-Business Agri-Industries of GMO scientific research companies ???

    GMO companies have been habitual liars. The fudge the truth. They hide all damaging data and in fact have been caught and turned in by some of their own former scientists who have a conscience, of rigging experiments so that no negative data see the light of day. The ONLY way it has been revealed is when Lawsuits for such Criminal Organizations to reveal such damning material from their buried archives. When other independent scientists conduct experiments and find damaging effects of GMOs on the environment and physical effects of deteriation on animals who are feed this crap, the GMO companies employ an all too familiar tactic of character assasination and career ruin. They break into Labs, steal samples and burn paperwork. They have even gone as far as to recently have declared that anyone who is not for GMOs are anti-science. Does any of this sound familiar, Chazzzzz ???
    —-

    ChasD:

    “Religion is no guarantee of good behaviour or stewardship, nor is its absence any pointer to bad character, or lack of concern for the natural world.”
    ====

    Correct, religion has a miserable history when it comes to setting the example. And they are more reprehensible than than all the athiests/Agnostics put together. However, if there is no God and Evolution is true, then even their behavior apparently couldn’t be judged wrong since everything is all a matter of personal adaptational choice anyway. There is a reason such debased religious practices have been allowed and tollerated for a time. Take the unfaithful example of ancient Israel. Time and again they failed to live by the Mosaic Law and adulterated pure worship. The Bible records why their miserable history was recorded down in writing for our benefit and instruction.

    1 Corinthians 10:11

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    (11) “These things happened to make them an example for others. These things were written down as a warning for us who are living in the closing days of history.”
    *******

    If anything could be acknowledged it is that their historical record is equal to your side. Even the apostate Christian examples of the Dark Ages and Inquisitions along with the 20th Century bloodguilt history stands as testimony of what happens when you strike out on an independent course, even if you consider yourself religious in the conventional sense.

    Still, Evolutionary thinking’s influence on ALL science has been far more destructive recently to the environment since none of the consequences ultimately can be considered wrong if TOE is true.

  48. WJ Murray/Eocene

    We drift even further OT, but it’s something I feel rather strongly about: evolution is an explanatory framework for the patterns in the data. That is ALL it is. It is not a philosophy by which I live my life; it is not a supportive structure to underpin some desire to ‘turn away from God’, or express some bizarre hatred of someone I have never encountered. But you won’t believe me, of course. Like the doorstepping Baptist who decided that I thought the way I did because I was ‘blinded by Satan’, you know my own mind better than I do myself. Because I am a doomed atheist, and there’s only one way for you to rationalise such thought processes.

    Still…

    Any ‘objective standard’ underpinning morality may as likely come from a combination of genetic and cultural effects on my mental states as from a divine source. Evolution can be true, and morality real without any contradiction whatsoever. Though if, as Eocene suggests, I would be expected to cast away morality but don’t, and the reason (as WJM suggests) is God, then it doesn’t seem to matter (on that count) whether one is atheist or not – God still holds the reins, via this assumed ‘objective standard’.

    But completely regardless of all this, I cannot in all conscience look at the ‘big picture’ – mountains of data – and conclude that anything other than evolution explains it successfully. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong; I don’t have the same stake in eternity that provides an equivalent to ‘blinded by Satan’ in the mirror-world of religious explanation. I am simply being honest, and to paraphrase Mill: if the ‘real’ designer can sentence me to hell for an honest assessment of the data, then to hell I will go.

  49. ChasD:

    “evolution is an explanatory framework for the patterns in the data.”

    “I cannot in all conscience look at the ‘big picture’ – mountains of data – and conclude that anything other than evolution explains it successfully.”
    =====

    This is called FAITH Charles! Patterns in Data ??? This is like reading tea leaves, tarot cards, astrological patterns of planet alignments ability to fortell your future, etc, etc, etc.
    What is amazing is how you can accept the fictious storytelling which have ZERO honest truthful data to back it up and was only inserted there because there was a huge gap in the actual data. This is where we start getting fuzzy definition shell gaming of words/terms to force fit the dogma into the data or perhaps in this case vice versa.
    —-

    ChasD:

    “if the ‘real’ designer can sentence me to hell for an honest assessment of the data, then to hell I will go.”
    ====

    This is lame and tiring. Look up the original meanings of the Hebrew word ‘sheol’ and Greek word ‘hades’ which have been erroneously translated as eternal hellfire and damnation and get back to me. Or you can take it up with someone else here who actually believes in this originally pagan doctrine.
    —–

    ChasD:

    “Evolution can be true, and morality real without any contradiction whatsoever.”
    =====

    Wrong, if evolution is true, then there is no universal standard for what is and what is not morality. It’s whatever feel good animalistic passionate desire one chooses to follow. If Evolution is true, then individuals like Jeffrey Dalmer, Adolf Hitler, etc did nothing immoral. It was simply a personal survival strategy for Jeffrey Dalmer and an opposite survival strategy for those who stopped him. Remember, there is no good no bad no right no wrong, just blind pointless pitiless indifference without purpose or intent. If evolution is true, then morality is whatever anyone driven by their selfish genes/memes wants it to be. If Evolution is true, then there is no authoritive correct answer by which to give or make any judgement.

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