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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Ayala&#8217;s Potemkin Village&#8221; &#8212; review of Francisco Ayala&#8217;s DARWIN&#8217;S GIFT</title>
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		<title>By: rockyr</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-2/#comment-139721</link>
		<dc:creator>rockyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139721</guid>
		<description>Prof. Sachs, the problem of evil has been muddled by all sorts of second and third rate thinkers and philosophers you quote. (I guess this muddle keeps modern philosophers and professors of philosophy employed.) The most authoritative and logical explanation of the problem of good and evil was presented by Thomas Aquinas. For a simple no-nonsense explanation see for example here

http://www.aquinasonline.com/Questions/goodevil.html

or see more detailed explanation here

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm


Just to give a quick example, considering that &quot;an evil thing is first a thing. Consequently it has some existence, and so has some good, of which God is the cause.&quot;

An earthquake wiping out a city may seem to be evil, but it is not absolutely evil in all aspects, it may have have some good points or &quot;higher&quot; good, (which we may not be able to understand with our &quot;Impure Reason&quot; as you should know from your blog). It may lead to some good in future, such as new soil or a good habitat for some future generations of life in the area. (Theologically, an earthquake may also be a part of divine judgement on such a city, such as Sodom, so there may be more good hidden in wiping out depravity and evil.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Sachs, the problem of evil has been muddled by all sorts of second and third rate thinkers and philosophers you quote. (I guess this muddle keeps modern philosophers and professors of philosophy employed.) The most authoritative and logical explanation of the problem of good and evil was presented by Thomas Aquinas. For a simple no-nonsense explanation see for example here</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aquinasonline.com/Questions/goodevil.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.aquinasonline.com/Q.....devil.html</a></p>
<p>or see more detailed explanation here</p>
<p><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm</a></p>
<p>Just to give a quick example, considering that &#8220;an evil thing is first a thing. Consequently it has some existence, and so has some good, of which God is the cause.&#8221;</p>
<p>An earthquake wiping out a city may seem to be evil, but it is not absolutely evil in all aspects, it may have have some good points or &#8220;higher&#8221; good, (which we may not be able to understand with our &#8220;Impure Reason&#8221; as you should know from your blog). It may lead to some good in future, such as new soil or a good habitat for some future generations of life in the area. (Theologically, an earthquake may also be a part of divine judgement on such a city, such as Sodom, so there may be more good hidden in wiping out depravity and evil.)</p>
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		<title>By: larrycranston</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-2/#comment-139551</link>
		<dc:creator>larrycranston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139551</guid>
		<description>bornagain77,

I think you are being a bit overly sensitive. Read my post again, I am not disagreeing with you.

My point was that the attribution of the question to Einstein is incorrect. If you knew that when you posted it, then you could be seen as lying, and that weakens your argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bornagain77,</p>
<p>I think you are being a bit overly sensitive. Read my post again, I am not disagreeing with you.</p>
<p>My point was that the attribution of the question to Einstein is incorrect. If you knew that when you posted it, then you could be seen as lying, and that weakens your argument.</p>
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		<title>By: bornagain77</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-2/#comment-139544</link>
		<dc:creator>bornagain77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139544</guid>
		<description>Larry Cranston:
This has a thought provoking message no matter how you believe or even if the story is a urban legend.
 Or to put it more directly to you Larry ,,,prove to me that evil exists without ever alluding to a loss of good!!!!
 If you can do this, then the logic of the argument will be proven false,,%2    il then I think it warrants considerable merit as a strong possible overall truth of reality...In other words ....Ev;il in its truest definition is equal to non-existance, such as dark and cold are equal to non-existance of light and heat. Thus to choose to &quot;do ev;il&quot; is to choose to become more non-existant i.e. . To choose to do good is to choose to become more existant i.e. alive. 

That probably sounds impersonal to you, but it is pure and true in its logic since you cannot ever refer to ev^il without also referring to the loss of good. As such absolute good (God) must exist for their ever to even be a consideration of the loss of Good i.e. ev^il</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry Cranston:<br />
This has a thought provoking message no matter how you believe or even if the story is a urban legend.<br />
 Or to put it more directly to you Larry ,,,prove to me that evil exists without ever alluding to a loss of good!!!!<br />
 If you can do this, then the logic of the argument will be proven false,,%2    il then I think it warrants considerable merit as a strong possible overall truth of reality&#8230;In other words &#8230;.Ev;il in its truest definition is equal to non-existance, such as dark and cold are equal to non-existance of light and heat. Thus to choose to &#8220;do ev;il&#8221; is to choose to become more non-existant i.e. . To choose to do good is to choose to become more existant i.e. alive. </p>
<p>That probably sounds impersonal to you, but it is pure and true in its logic since you cannot ever refer to ev^il without also referring to the loss of good. As such absolute good (God) must exist for their ever to even be a consideration of the loss of Good i.e. ev^il</p>
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		<title>By: Nochange</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-2/#comment-139542</link>
		<dc:creator>Nochange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139542</guid>
		<description>bornagain77,

That&#039;s an urban myth.  As much as I support the message, the story itself isn&#039;t true:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bornagain77,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s an urban myth.  As much as I support the message, the story itself isn&#8217;t true:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: larrycranston</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-2/#comment-139536</link>
		<dc:creator>larrycranston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139536</guid>
		<description>Excuse me, bornagain77, but I don&#039;t think that quoting an urban legend about Albert Einstein does much to bolster your argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me, bornagain77, but I don&#8217;t think that quoting an urban legend about Albert Einstein does much to bolster your argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Sachs</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-139533</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Sachs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139533</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m shocked to hear that the professor was so easily tricked.  The doctrine that evil is nothing in itself, but only the absence of divine presence, can be found as early as Augustine&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Confessions&lt;/i&gt; -- and the doctrine played an important role in the early debates over Gnosticism.  It boggles the mind to think that a professor (of what?) could be so deficient in the basics of the history of Western thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m shocked to hear that the professor was so easily tricked.  The doctrine that evil is nothing in itself, but only the absence of divine presence, can be found as early as Augustine&#8217;s <i>Confessions</i> &#8212; and the doctrine played an important role in the early debates over Gnosticism.  It boggles the mind to think that a professor (of what?) could be so deficient in the basics of the history of Western thought.</p>
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		<title>By: bornagain77</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-139519</link>
		<dc:creator>bornagain77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139519</guid>
		<description>Jerry:
 This has a thought provoking message no matter how you believe. 

Does evil exist?

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?
A student bravely replied yes, he did!&quot;
&quot;God created everything?&quot; The professor asked.
&quot;Yes, sir,&quot; the student replied.

The professor answered, &quot;If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil.&quot;
The student became quiet before such an answer.

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, &quot;Can I ask you a question professor?&quot; &quot;Of course&quot;, replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, &quot;Professor, does cold exist?&quot;

&quot;What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?&quot; The students snickered at the young man&#039;s question.

The young man replied, &quot;In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.

The student continued. &quot;Professor, does darkness exist?&quot;

The professor responded, &quot;Of course it does&quot;.

The student replied, &quot;Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton&#039;s prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn&#039;t this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present.&quot;

Finally the young man asked the professor. &quot;Sir, does evil exist?&quot;

Now uncertain, the professor responded, &quot;Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man&#039;s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and          everywhere in the world. &quot;These manifestations are nothing else but evil.&quot;

To this the student replied, &quot;Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God&#039;s love present in his heart. It&#039;s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.&quot;

The professor sat down.

The young mans name --- Albert Einstein</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry:<br />
 This has a thought provoking message no matter how you believe. </p>
<p>Does evil exist?</p>
<p>The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?<br />
A student bravely replied yes, he did!&#8221;<br />
&#8220;God created everything?&#8221; The professor asked.<br />
&#8220;Yes, sir,&#8221; the student replied.</p>
<p>The professor answered, &#8220;If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil.&#8221;<br />
The student became quiet before such an answer.</p>
<p>The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.</p>
<p>Another student raised his hand and said, &#8220;Can I ask you a question professor?&#8221; &#8220;Of course&#8221;, replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, &#8220;Professor, does cold exist?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?&#8221; The students snickered at the young man&#8217;s question.</p>
<p>The young man replied, &#8220;In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.</p>
<p>The student continued. &#8220;Professor, does darkness exist?&#8221;</p>
<p>The professor responded, &#8220;Of course it does&#8221;.</p>
<p>The student replied, &#8220;Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton&#8217;s prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn&#8217;t this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present.&#8221;</p>
<p>Finally the young man asked the professor. &#8220;Sir, does evil exist?&#8221;</p>
<p>Now uncertain, the professor responded, &#8220;Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man&#8217;s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and          everywhere in the world. &#8220;These manifestations are nothing else but evil.&#8221;</p>
<p>To this the student replied, &#8220;Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God&#8217;s love present in his heart. It&#8217;s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.&#8221;</p>
<p>The professor sat down.</p>
<p>The young mans name &#8212; Albert Einstein</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Sachs</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-139509</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Sachs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139509</guid>
		<description>Jerry -- philosophers and theologians sometimes distinguish between &quot;natural evil&quot; (e.g. diseases, earthquakes) and &quot;moral evil&quot; (murder, torture).  Maybe if you tried a Google search on those two phrases you could find something useful.  Hope this helps!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry &#8212; philosophers and theologians sometimes distinguish between &#8220;natural evil&#8221; (e.g. diseases, earthquakes) and &#8220;moral evil&#8221; (murder, torture).  Maybe if you tried a Google search on those two phrases you could find something useful.  Hope this helps!</p>
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		<title>By: jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-139507</link>
		<dc:creator>jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139507</guid>
		<description>I have a question that was prompted by tribune7&#039;s comment above about the nature of evil.  

What is evil?  We normally associate it with physical or mental pain/hardship caused by the randomness of the world or by the intentions of humans.  We never say that one animal&#039;s treatment of another is evil (unless the recipient animal is human) while we quite readily use this to describe human behavior.

Is evil really more than that?  Does the concept of evil require that there be purpose?   And is evil also the frustration of that purpose?

Are there any accessible discussions of evil.  I am sure there are lots of obtuse philosophical treatises but was looking for something simple.  And also I hope this doesn&#039;t start a discussion of this here since I was just curious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question that was prompted by tribune7&#8242;s comment above about the nature of evil.  </p>
<p>What is evil?  We normally associate it with physical or mental pain/hardship caused by the randomness of the world or by the intentions of humans.  We never say that one animal&#8217;s treatment of another is evil (unless the recipient animal is human) while we quite readily use this to describe human behavior.</p>
<p>Is evil really more than that?  Does the concept of evil require that there be purpose?   And is evil also the frustration of that purpose?</p>
<p>Are there any accessible discussions of evil.  I am sure there are lots of obtuse philosophical treatises but was looking for something simple.  And also I hope this doesn&#8217;t start a discussion of this here since I was just curious.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/comment-page-1/#comment-139135</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ayalas-potemkin-village-review-of-francisco-ayalas-darwins-gift/#comment-139135</guid>
		<description>&quot;Needless to say, the fact that one can map the degree of relatedness of all living things through the comparison of DNA (something else unknown in Darwin’s time) also is something that his theory would lead one to predict, and has subsequently been confirmed.&quot;

Of course you can map it.  It is possible to take any two or more things and map out a hypothetical relationship.  The question is not whether it can be mapped, but whether the map reflects reality, which is very much an open question.

In addition, you are incorrect that Darwin&#039;s theory would predict that &quot;the degree of relatedness&quot; can be mapped.  Darwin&#039;s theory knows no such constraints.  Everything is possible and anything goes.  Based on Darwin&#039;s musings, we might as well have a hundred different genetic codes.  Or one.  DNA might be quickly modified.  Or slowly.  Genes might be conserved from generation to generation.  Or not.

Common descent may in fact be true, but you don&#039;t get there with Darwin&#039;s completely vague, outdated and simplistic view of biology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Needless to say, the fact that one can map the degree of relatedness of all living things through the comparison of DNA (something else unknown in Darwin’s time) also is something that his theory would lead one to predict, and has subsequently been confirmed.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course you can map it.  It is possible to take any two or more things and map out a hypothetical relationship.  The question is not whether it can be mapped, but whether the map reflects reality, which is very much an open question.</p>
<p>In addition, you are incorrect that Darwin&#8217;s theory would predict that &#8220;the degree of relatedness&#8221; can be mapped.  Darwin&#8217;s theory knows no such constraints.  Everything is possible and anything goes.  Based on Darwin&#8217;s musings, we might as well have a hundred different genetic codes.  Or one.  DNA might be quickly modified.  Or slowly.  Genes might be conserved from generation to generation.  Or not.</p>
<p>Common descent may in fact be true, but you don&#8217;t get there with Darwin&#8217;s completely vague, outdated and simplistic view of biology.</p>
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