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Arguments from Incredulity

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We often hear that ID is an argument from incredulity. At this point I would tend to agree. That said, arguments from incredulity aren’t necessarily wrong but in fact are rather reliable and employed constantly and consistently by everyone every day.

Let’s take the example that Granville Sewell offered in his most recent post here. He described Schrodinger’s equation and showed us that it’s theoretically possible for a pitched baseball to stop and hover in mid-air. A commenter who appeared to have a reasonable understanding of Schrodinger’s equation at first protested then ended up agreeing that it’s possible but the odds against it are long and for all practical purposes incalculable. They went on to agree that the quantum uncertainty is tractible in the analysis of a single electron orbiting a single proton (a hydrogen atom) but that the math is intractible for a pitched baseball because such a large number of particles are involved.

So how do we “know” that a pitched baseball won’t stop and hover in mid-air? Incredulity is how. We can’t precisely calculate the odds against it due to the system being so complex but we know it is (literally) incredibly improbable. It’s the same thing with ID. Although we can’t calculate the odds precisely we do know enough to see that self-organization of atoms into structures as complex as the machinery found in living cells is incredibly improbable. We couple this with the sure knowledge that intelligent agency routinely produces organizations of matter that, absent the intelligent agent’s intervention, are incredibly unlikely.

Here’s a good example. In principle it is possible for two cows to mate and give birth to a chimpanzee. The reason we don’t ever expect to see such a thing is we know (now) that the genetic differences between a cow and a chimp are so complex and specified that the odds against it actually happening in a single generation are nearly impossible. We can’t calculate the odds precisely but we know it is incredibly improbable. The argument that two cows won’t mate and produce a chimpanzee is an argument from incredulity.

Likewise, is it possible that a bacteria can, through RM+NS, change into a baboon over a billion years and trillions of generations? Sure it’s possible but when you actually get down to assessing the sequence of changes that must have occurred, analyzing the probability in a finite number of years and a finite number of generations, using everything we know about the mutation and selection mechanism, it quickly becomes an incredible proposition. It grows more incredible every day as new knowledge of the underlying physical mechanics is discovered.

So the next time someone tells you that ID is an argument from incredulity you can simply respond by saying “Yeah, so what? Arguments from incredulity are common and quite reliable in all aspects of life from the physics of baseball to the physics of biology.”

Comments
Dave Scot, It looks as if you moderated-out my earlier, incorrect e-mail (the original (51) - thanks for doing so.Clarence
January 17, 2008
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DaveScot, Thanks for the reply. Actually, the example I gave IS one where the complexity is specified - i.e. the chances of dealing the specific card 6 of diamonds first is 1 in 52; and the chance of dealing the specific sequence 6 of diamonds... 10 of spades is 1 chance in 10 to the power of 68 (actually, 8x10^67). The non-specific complexity is 1 chance in 1 (i.e. if you deal one card you are bound to get one card; and if you deal 52 cards you are bound to get a sequence of 52 cards); it's just that you can't say what the first card acually will be (i.e. it's not specified) or what the actual sequence will be (that isn't specified either). The analogy with biology is this (I think): given that life originates, and is capable of replication based on a replicating molecule such as DNA, then provided it doesn't become extinct you are bound to have a variable genome after a certain period of time, simply because replication of such molecules is imperfect. So after, say, 4 billion years the probability of there being a variety of organisms with different genomes is essentially 1 (i.e. 1 chance in 1) - simply because life survived through all that time - just like if you deal a deck of cards then you are certain to get a sequence of cards. But the chances of deciding AT THE OUTSET what those organisms will be is virtually impossible to predict, just as it would have been virtually impossible to predict that I dealt the specific sequence 6 of diamonds...10 of spades earlier. In other words, provided life survived this long then it is not at all unusual for us to have the biological plethora we do have - it is just one of a huge number of possible biological plethora (plethoras?), it just happens to be this one.Clarence
January 16, 2008
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Clarence Good example of complexity with the deck of cards. But what we're really looking for is specified complexity. Your example is not specified so now lets add specification and see what happens. We'll use the order you gave as the specification. Try getting the cards to come out in that same order again without cheating or planning of any kind.DaveScot
January 16, 2008
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Whoops, submitted too early! Continuing from (51): GilDodgen (7), you wrote: “I like Phillip Johnson’s comment about the claim that large improbabilities can be overcome by breaking them down into many smaller, manageable improbabilities (the central claim in support of the Darwinian macroevolutionary mechanism). Johnson observes that this claim amounts to suggesting that although it might be highly improbable that you will win the million-dollar lottery, this can be overcome by winning the thousand-dollar lottery a thousand times.” I’m not sure what Johnson is saying here, but I think the apparent sceptical tone about overcoming large improbablilities by breaking them down into smaller ones is grossly wrong. Today I dealt a pack of cards as follows (S=spades, C=clubs, H=hearts, D=diamonds): 6D, 8H, JC, 8S, 5H, KD, 3D, 5S, 3S, 6S, JD, 7D, 10H, 9C, 7S, 9D, 1S, 2C, QD, 4C, 2D, 7C, 5D, 3H, JS, 10D, 2S, 1D, 7H, 2H, 8C, 4S, 9H, 8D, QC, 1H, 5C, QS, QH, 1C, 6C, KS, KC, 6H, 1S, 4H, JH, 10C, KH, 3C, 9S, 10S. The chances of my dealing the 6 of diamonds first was 1 in 52. Having done that, the chances of dealing 8 of hearts next was 1 in 51. Having done that, the chances of dealing the Jack of clubs next was 1 in 50. Relatively small odd (although I wouldn't bet on a horse with those odds!). Yet the chances of drawing that precise sequence of 52 cards (or indeed ANY precise sequence of 52 cards) is of the order of 10 to the power of 68! Which is absolutely HUGE. Perhaps Philip Johnson would like to think again...Clarence
January 16, 2008
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bfast: "Alas, it opens up huge vistas of valid ID research." Thanks, bFast! I feel understood :-)Q
January 11, 2008
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Q, it sounds to me like you would like a lot of research to go into the question of where the edge of evolution is. I would agree that, though Behe brings up the topic, he far from exhausts the question. Alas, it opens up huge vistas of valid ID research. I too would love to see a "this is natural" v. "this is designed" map of the genome.bFast
January 11, 2008
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bfast, in 47, points out "However, as RM+NS presents an absolute solution, a solution to “all” cases, then any case that is outside of its reach falsifies such universality, therefore it is fully valid to look at the extremes." Similarly, RM+NS may be the better explanation in specific situations, if the likelyhood is high enough. One example is possibly the cave fish from another thread - the probability of the necessary mutations hasn't yet been shown. As I'm suggesting, some situations may have probabilities on the likely side of the threshold probability, while other situations may be on the unlikely side. Assertions can't sufficiently discriminate. Likewise, examining the extremes sheds insufficient light on the variety of possibilities. A simple refuation of the extreme cases is not a universal refutation, since there is a specific threshold condition against which each of the comparisons are to be made. (I'll agree, however, that specific exceptions will refute the univisersality of a claim, but that is different than my point.)Q
January 11, 2008
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Q, I think that the middle ground has been covered quite nicely in Behe's "Edge of Evolution". Behe contends that even very "middle-ground" events are outside the reach of RM+NS. When an experiment that involves more replications than there have ever been mammals on the face of the planet, we can be pretty sure that the edge of chance has been determined -- and chance has proven to be inept. We can look at the extreme of probability -- 10^120+, or we can observe much less proable events. However, as RM+NS presents an absolute solution, a solution to "all" cases, then any case that is outside of its reach falsifies such universality, therefore it is fully valid to look at the extremes. That said, my favorite little mutation is the HAR1F gene. It is rock-consistant for all mammals (at least) except humans, where 18 mutations have produced a modified three-dimentional form. The modified form seems to require all 18 mutations to have occurred simultaneously, and seem to be involved in the advance in intelligence of the human. This is surely a "middle ground" mutational challenge. Yet this challenge is clearly beyond the edge of evolution if the malaria experiment is valid.bFast
January 11, 2008
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DaveScot, in 39, asks "If you’ve read those what deficiencies do you find that inspires you to say in effect that not enough work is being done in statistical analysis?" Thanks for the opportunity to answer that question. I'll try to avoid preparing a dissertation :-) One concern I have is that the debates about ID often look at only extreme cases. That is, they seem to be of the form "this can't have happened without involvement of intelligence" or simply "that is so unlikely that it can't happen". That I argue, is too simple of an analysis, because it avoids basic tenets of ID. Dr. Dembski, if I read his work correctly, built an explanatory filter with probabilities forming the backbone. As I understand his position, he attaches an estimate of a probability: 10 ^ 120 for specified complexity. My concern is that discussions about ID seem to ignore that it is built around probabilities and not simple absolutes. The dispute is not about things that are wildly improbable, which the tornado in a junkyard arguments bring up. Those are simple combinatorial arguments, with factorials of huge numbers, so it is easy to see that they are outside of the probability of specified complexity. Likewise, other highly probable events are so far to the side of being explained as regular, like BarryA's example of a falling hammer, that they are also not in dispute. The less-understood middle ground is different, however. What I am suggesting is that unlikely events don't automatically have the best explanation of "Design". I've seen several arguments which are built like that. The argument would only apply if the probability is sufficiently low, like 1 in 10 ^ 140. But, some events, like the probability of a beneficial mutation in specific environments, may have a probability on the other side of the design limit, like having a probability of 1 in 10 ^ 20 (making up numbers). Bantering about the unlikelyhood, or inferring from other studies with different controls, is insufficient, I've been holding. At the minimum, arguments about the evidence must be qualified based upon the uncertainty of the probabilities implied by evidence. Which leads to the next point. I agree with your major points about incredulity - when compared to the probabilitistic thresholds of ID those arguments are only about the left and right ends of a probability curve. But, I'm suggestng they don't address the middle ground of ignorance. Some events may, or may not, fall on the random side of the explanatory filter, and not be best explained as requiring intelligent agency. In fact, as more studies are peformed, and the understanding of events changes, people who use ID must be willing to accept that the best explanation for some arguments will change over time. Dogmatism is not needed, because ID, as it is being developed, should be quantifiable and measurable in terms of probabilities.Q
January 11, 2008
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Jerry, let me put this finding into the context -- as I understand it. The RNA world hypothesis is seen as the great OOL savior. The presumption is that life started as simple RNA replicating molecules. Some success has actually been made in producing replicating RNA, albiet the amount of success seems to be significantly exaggerated by the scientific community and the press. In any case, if replicating RNA once existed, we still need a path to the present day where RNA primarily plays an intermediate role, where DNA stores the data for the long term, and proteins primarily do the work. Somehow two transitions must have been made, a transition from RNA to RNA + Protein and a transition from RNA to DNA + RNA. This particular finding, a real-world example of some RNA "doing the work", and a protein assisting. As such it is seen as an intermediate form between the RNA world and the RNA + protein world. However, it still leaves wide open the chicken and egg question -- if RNA world, then some mechanism (RNA or protein) must take the pattern held in RNA and convert it to protein. I do not believe that an RNA molecule that actually "does the work" would directly translate to protein. So in addition to some mechanism being needed to make the protein, some reasonable pattern must be used to make that protein. So which came first, a mechanism to create protein or a valid pattern to make protein from? OOL remains to be a grand mystery to science.bFast
January 11, 2008
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This is off topic but has some relevance since scientists claim some incredulity has been breached. There is an article at Science Daily which claims that a missing link for the RNA world to protein construction has been found. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080102142555.htm I have no idea of what significance this is but maybe those with better biochemistry skills may have an opinion. It does not explain where the RNA came from. Here is the opening quote "By studying the three-dimensional version of the fungus protein bound to an RNA molecule, scientists from Purdue University and the University of Texas at Austin have been able to visualize how life progressed from an early self-replicating molecule that also performed chemical reactions to one in which proteins assumed some of the work."jerry
January 11, 2008
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Dave: Spot on in the OP! I got an energy policy to begin to seriously write and I got my own blog to mind . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 11, 2008
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Darwinists aren’t convinced by this because the real step you have to take in order to accept ID is the one that allows for NON-MATERIAL forces to be a factor i.e. a designer. However unlikely something may be, a Darwinist will always conclude that a designer is more unlikely. When the issue is ‘possibility’, not ‘probability’ you’re always giving a Darwinist a get-out clause if your position is oxymoronic i.e. ‘x is possible (see DaveScot’s original post, penultimate paragraph), but it’s so unlikely that we’re now going to contradict ourselves and conclude that actually it’s not possible’. ID needs to show that a designer designing is more than a conceptualisation.duncan
January 11, 2008
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Donald Behe explains he believes in common descent in large part because of retrovirus markers that are shared between species. These aren't really common traits as they're mere remnants of retrovirus infections in some remote ancestor - non-functional in any way and in various states of decay from getting peppered with random mutations. I agree with Behe. There's no reasonable explanation for this except for common ancestry. If common design is the explanation then the designer evidently lifted the genetic template for new species directly from an existing species including all the dents and dings the template genome suffered during its existence. There's no practical or discernable difference at all between common descent and common design.DaveScot
January 11, 2008
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Berceuse re; evolution of the gaps I call it "Darwin of the Gaps" since I believe in evolution defined as descent with modification from common ancestors. The mechanism that caused the modification is where I part from the neo-Darwinian bandwagon.DaveScot
January 11, 2008
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Q You seem to be complaining that not enough focus on statistical probability is being done by ID pundits. The recent works I mentioned by Behe and Sanford are overflowing with statistical analysis of data drawn from their fields of expertise which are biochemistry and genetics respectively. If you've read those what deficiencies do you find that inspires you to say in effect that not enough work is being done in statistical analysis? If I'm mistakenly inferring things you didn't mean to imply in this regard I offer my apology. There are an overabundance of ID critics who don't bother to read the relevant literature before criticizing it so I'm a bit quick on the trigger when I think one is spouting off here.DaveScot
January 11, 2008
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Patrick re; my definition of argument from incredulity not the same as Darwinist's That's probably true. An argument from incredulity is not usually included in definitive lists of logical fallacies. If the chance worshippers are conflating it with argument from ignorance or appeal to ignorance then it's certainly not the same. I'm using the definition of "incredible" which is, from Meriam Webster,
too extraordinary and improbable to be believed
The operative word is "improbable" and I think I made that clear in the posting that was the basis of our position. There might be some pedantic arguments to made that incredulity and incredible are not closely related. Meriam has this to say:
Main Entry: in·cred·u·lous Function: adjective 1 : unwilling to admit or accept what is offered as true : not credulous : skeptical 2 : incredible 3 : expressing incredulity usage Sense 2 was revived in the 20th century after a couple of centuries of disuse. Although it is a sense with good literary precedent—among others Shakespeare used it—many people think it is a result of confusion with incredible, which is still the usual word in this sense.
Englishplus.com has this to say:
Incredible or Incredulous? Incredible means "hard to believe," literally "not able to be believed." Incredulous means "skeptical" or "unbelieving." It refers to a person's response. The noun form of incredulous is incredulity. The opposite is credulous, or "gullible, believes anything." Examples: Kim's story was incredible. Arthur was incredulous as he listened to the story.
' The RM+NS story is incredible and I am indeed incredulous as I listen to it.DaveScot
January 11, 2008
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Berceuse (#27) wrote: But there’s another issue I have with the “God of the Gaps” battlecry. The defense stems from the belief that we should presuppose naturalism unless evidence says otherwise. But isn’t that choice entirely arbitrary? Is it not equally valid for me to presuppose ID and say “evolution of the gaps” in the face of counter-evidence? I would think Dawkins, et al would say that the physical evidence supports their view and that the assumption of an intelligent designer implies a great many other assumptions for which there is no supporting physical evidence. But I think you already knew that!ellazimm
January 10, 2008
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Bob Marcus:
Drs. Dembski, Behe, and other ID spokespersons do seem to be appealing to the gullibility of their audience of Believers.
As per toc #32, just give us the facts, show us with good Aristotelean logic where Dembski, Behe etc, are full of it, and we'll happily jump ship. Just demonstrate to a simple country programmer how on earth a little random mutzin' with the code, and a little keepin' the good and throwin' out the bad can produce a software application that's half the size of Microsoft Windows, and capable of producing Unix from scratch.bFast
January 10, 2008
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toc, "Not everyone is a biologist ( I am a database developer/systems analyst)" You are in good company on this site. I think half of us are, by trade, software developers of some sort. "good old-fashioned Aristotelean logic stands the test of time." I think that's how we all feel. "From what I have read from the pens of Drs. Dembski, Behe, Granville (on this blog), Denton, and several others, their coherent and logical arguments formidably support their positions." You took the words right out of my mouth. I think we should start a "computer scientists who reject Darwin" list.bFast
January 10, 2008
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[...] doing any actual science. But if DaveScot’s blathering on his own blog wasn’t enough, now he’s gift-wrapped a gift to us Evilutionists: We often hear that ID is an argument from incredulity. At this point I would tend to agree. That [...] Perfect. The respondent offers a rebuttal based on his own argument from incredulity - he finds the existence of a designing intelligence incredible. My irony meter just exploded. The difference of course is that we know intelligent agents exist in reality - we are the known instance - therefore we know intelligent agency is not just theoretically possible but it actually happened at least once. What we don't know for sure is whether the mythical ability of chance and necessity to create novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans ever happened in even one instance. -ds DaveScot: aren’t the ID folks ashamed of him yet? « Notes from Evil Bender
January 10, 2008
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“P2 - No designer would have included trait T in 2 separate organisms” Theology in a cheap tuxedo.
Love it!!DonaldM
January 10, 2008
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"P2 - No designer would have included trait T in 2 separate organisms" Theology in a cheap tuxedo. :)mike1962
January 10, 2008
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JP
Donald wrote: P1 - Organisms O-1 and O-2 share trait T P2 - No designer would have included trait T in 2 separate organisms Conclusion: Organisms O-1 and O-2 share a common ancestor. A pretty incredible argument don’t you think?
Not only incredible, but hypocritical as well, since P2 invites philosophical scrutiny, something that IDers are always accused of only doing. Exactly. What's a theological premise doing in what is supposed to be a purely scientific argument. But that is precisely what every version of "God wouldn't have done it that way" is. It is a total argument from incredulity. Incidentally, this line of argument doesn't get any better, even if re-formulated to avoid the theological premise as a valid deductive argument. P1 - Organisms that share trait T could only do so if they share a common ancestor P2- O1 and O2 share trait T Therefore, O1 and O2 share a common ancestor. The argument is deductively valid given that if both premises are true, then the conclusion follows. The problem is how to demonstrate the validity of P1 without getting right back into the theological premise. Its a sticky wicket for Darwinists to try and use this line of reasoning.DonaldM
January 10, 2008
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Bob Maurus "Drs. Dembski, Behe, and other ID spokespersons do seem to be appealing to the gullibility of their audience of Believers". Now that is a presumptuous assertion. Do you have evidence of this or are you simply relying on a prejudicial habit? Not everyone is a biologist ( I am a database developer/systems analyst), but good old-fashioned Aristotelean logic stands the test of time. From what I have read from the pens of Drs. Dembski, Behe, Granville (on this blog), Denton, and several others, their coherent and logical arguments formidably support their positions. Respectfully, it would be helpful to those of us who frequently read this blog to know why you have come to the conclusion that those of us who find ID an attractive theory of origins gullible. Personally, I have never recognized myself to be what Eric Hoffer pejoratively described as one of the "True Believers." You could prove me wrong. I, and most likely others who read this blog, would be willing to consider your arguments carefully.toc
January 10, 2008
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Berceuse: your questions is actually dealing with a well developed philosophical position called "reformed epistemology". Check the book "5 views on apologetics" or Alvin Plantinga or a recent www.apologetics.com podcast where they compare and contrast the various apologetics methodologies.CN
January 10, 2008
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I have read in several places that the late great computer pioneer and mathematician John Von Neuman thought that Darwinian evolution (as opposed to designed evolution) lacked credibility. Is that true? Does anybody have a reference to this?Mapou
January 10, 2008
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Donald wrote: P1 - Organisms O-1 and O-2 share trait T P2 - No designer would have included trait T in 2 separate organisms Conclusion: Organisms O-1 and O-2 share a common ancestor. A pretty incredible argument don’t you think? Not only incredible, but hypocritical as well, since P2 invites philosophical scrutiny, something that IDers are always accused of only doing.JPCollado
January 10, 2008
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Bob Maurus wrote: "Drs. Dembski, Behe, and other ID spokespersons do seem to be appealing to the gullibility of their audience of Believers." Mr. Maurus, It is all just a matter of terminology and perspective. What about those who are skeptical of darwinian claims? Would you be willing to equate skepticism with gullibility in this instance? On the same token, using your euphemism, one could also say that Dawkins and other darwinian spokespersons seem to be appealing to the gullibility of their audience of "Believers." Nothing much is really being said.JPCollado
January 10, 2008
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Like many others here, I have often seen evolutionists resort to the "argument from incredulity" defense, or in other words, "God of the Gaps," and I'm glad it's been addressed so well in this post. But there's another issue I have with the "God of the Gaps" battlecry. The defense stems from the belief that we should presuppose naturalism unless evidence says otherwise. But isn't that choice entirely arbitrary? Is it not equally valid for me to presuppose ID and say "evolution of the gaps" in the face of counter-evidence? Playing the argument from incredulity card suggests bias (which is no surprise). What people need to do is look at the evidence objectively, and then ask themselves "which is more likely?" I'm sorry if this has been brought up already; I didn't read all the posts.Berceuse
January 10, 2008
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