The notion that animals have minds is not one that I’d dispute, in fact I think it’s pretty clear if you look at the literature in Cogntive Ethology you’ll be bombarded with intriguing info.

However,I think we can be rather sure that the domain of language-use is occupied by human beings and only human beings. Though some particularly intelligent chimpanzees have, after exhaustive training, learned to communicate with sign language, plastic words and similar nonverbal methods, they are still unable to approach the intricacy of human language. David Premack, who has dedicated years to the study of language use in primates, has suggested (in the book “Gavagai!”) that although chimpanzees are able to represent many different courses of action, and likely have the ability to understand the semantic content of a few signs, they seem to lack entirely any kind of device with which to understand the syntax and structure of language as we know it. Premack writes that “there is a growing consensus among psycholinguists that syntax cannot be derived from semantics…no metamorphosis has been demonstrated for turning semantic caterpillars into syntactic butterflies.”
Even though some animals seem to be able to internalize the semantic content of certain symbols, it doesn’t seem likely that they will ever be able to create a language from whatever meaningful symbols they comprehend. Though Premack’s chimpanzee test subject Sarah was able to use plastic words to create meaningful “sentences” which might seem to state that an apple is red or that chocolate is brown, he writes that “ ‘subject of the sentence’ is not a distinction available to Sarah or to any other creature who has language formulated in semantic categories.”

If we think that a primary difference between language-using creatures and other “smart” but language-less creatures is that the language using creatures have second order thoughts, and we assume there is something about the mind of language using creatures that differs in kind from that of flexible creatures, it seems to follow that there must be some kind of mental hardware unavailable to the flexible creatures due to this difference in mind. Since it is obvious that one primary difference between the two kinds of minds is the ability to constructively use language, one might also wonder what role language plays in the difference between the two. I’m not totally ready to say man has a different kind of mind altogether, but I think many of the signs point that way. Especially when you consider the doors opened up by second order thought.

Honey bees use a symbolic language to communicate navigation information to coworkers about the location of food sources outside the hive. Cats scratch trees and dogs mark them in other ways to communicate to others their size and the territory they consider to be theirs. Technically speaking that’s writing in a symbolic language. Human language (verbal and written) is unique in degree but not in kind. Likewise tool use. What may be unique in humans is imagining supernatural beings for which no evidence exists and worshipping them in order to influence the outcome of events in the natural world. I’m not sure I’d brag about that though. -ds

I made an answer on the question of theodicy, it was a bit long – and it has not appeared although when I pressed the submit button everything behaved correctly. I am afraid it would be annoying to resubmit it. Is there a delay if posts are too long? I’ve got it saved.

It must have had a blacklisted spam word in it. In that case you have to wait until I get around to looking through the spam to see if there are any ponies in the pile of manure before it’s flushed forever. -ds

I do think most suffering is caused by people. There is no reason that this bounteous earth, a paradise-in-disguise, could not provide every family with a nice home, owned free and without debt, wonderful food, and a modest and enjoyable work schedule. It is only our mixed up priorities that prevent it.

I was able to google Dembski and Theodicy, but before I delve into his long essay, I found someone who made a quick refutation of it, and funnily enough, he brought up hideous birth defects to refute premise #3.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Says him:
The problem of evil is easily stated:

1. An omnipotent, omnibenevolent God would not permit evil and suffering to exist unless that evil and suffering were logically necessary to bring about some greater good.
2. Evil and suffering exist.
3. At least some of that evil and suffering is not logically necessary for bringing about some greater good.
4. Therefore, there is no omnipotent, omnibenevolent God.
Now, this argument is logically valid. If you accept the three premises you must, as a matter of logic, accept the conclusion as well.
So the task of theodicy can be viewed in part as the task of showing that at least one of these premises is false.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don’t find this argument valid or even particularly interesting! However, many people do. Premise # 1 is false for reasons I already stated. God is the absolute, the all in all, and is not separate from suffering. The entire cosmos, God and all beings are in this together. There are two spiritual paradoxes that come to mind. One is about individuality-unity, and the other is about grace versus personal spiritual striving. They can’t be solved in an either-or manner. I’m not saying God suffers, but neither is he separate from suffering.

As for #3, who is he to say that some suffering is gratuitous? Does he see the grand scheme? Does he see at all? He does not. He does not even see beyond death. The thing I notice is that everyone believes in death, and the Christian only a tiny bit less than the nonreligious or atheist person. There is indeed a reason for suffering and it isn’t hard to see. I find the book of Genesis endlessly fascinating. Take the fall. I am NOT in favor of looking at scripture simplistically, so as to never offend the average IQ. Eve wanted to become like God, and so we are now on the path of the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis hints that there could have been another path, or that we entered it prematurely somehow, but I think it’s wrong to consider the thing an unmitigated disaster. Of course, if people go to hell forever, even one person, that is an unmitigated disaster.

But was physical death the real death or was it belief in death, that is, a closing of the spiritual vision so that we live in such fear of it? There are so many hundreds of near-death experiences and they indicate our consciousness never stops for a moment. Death isn’t real. Life is all there is. One guy said, “It isn’t ‘life after death’, it’s life after life.”
Knowledge of good and evil means intimate knowledge. We are experiencing good and evil and the end result? We will understand what is good and what is evil and we will learn to choose the good. By choosing the good we literally BECOME good, that is, we transform our own, personal, inner nature to one of perfect goodness. Jesus, our brother, was the example who lit the way. It is accomplished by grace and it is accomplished by willingness.
So while the suffering can seem intense at times and our learning involves becoming exquisitely sensitive and compassionate, nonetheless the game plan is not the harsh one you envision with your limited perspective. Rather, God has set us down in a playpen of a universe, at no time in any danger at all, but like the little boy in Bruce Springsteen’s incredible song, “My Father’s House” we get spooked by the dark. We’re like babies who get hurt and cry, then so quickly distracted by some bauble that we begin to smile and laugh with tears still undried on our cheeks.

Those obsessed with pacifying a reluctant God also get their priorities wrong. They are so fearful that they overemphasize propitiating God by ‘accepting’ him, that they ignore the repeated teachings of Jesus himself that it is compassion toward others that he is looking for. (Includes animals!) So you have put God on the shelf while emphasizing compassion, and in my opinion that means your priorities are straight. Pretending that you have limited time and must choose under duress is fear-talk, and fear does not come from God.

But the situation we are in here is not great, and a main, or perhaps the main, component is limited understanding. I’m not sure you noticed that you were recently consigned to the vestibule of hell for your agnosticism, but I think it is a great description of our actual situation. We aren’t in hell, but we are in the vestibule. It all starts in the mind, not in the physical surroundings.

Look, I agree with your comments about salvation through grace, and it is IMO the one and only actual ‘reformative’ doctrine of the Reformation, but still there is the tendency to interpret the teachings of Jesus in a materialistic and legalistic way. They want to make a quick, legalistic agreement so that God will ‘decide’ to ‘allow’ them into heaven while being ‘offended’ by unbelievers. It isn’t all that much different than covering your sins with ablutions. And for heaven’s sake, how do Christians claim to have done away with the need for sacrifice by offering the most hideous sacrifice ever? That means those who put him to death did right! Even in the Old Testament, (filled with rot in my opinion) God sneaks in the occasional good word. “I will have mercy and not sacrifice.” I am full (sick of) your burnt offerings and your fatted calves.”
****

Says Terry-
“Supposing that maybe God should have allowed some thing or other to happen in a different way than it really happened is tantamount to telling Him how to do his job. I have it on good authority that that sort of thing tends to cheese Him off, so don’t do it.”

Such anthropomorphism! It makes of God a personality somewhere in the mid-range of regular human beings so far as patience and magnanimity. C’mon Christians! Either come up with a God that is so fantastic as to boggle the mind, or quit claiming you’ve got the best religion.

The weak point is #3 and the quick argument against it is that unless you can see to the end of time as God presumably can then you can’t know what suffering is gratuitous and what isn’t. This is why I said I’ll give God a chance to explain to me why things have to be the way they are. I think you overestimate the fear of death. I don’t fear death. I fear eternal life because I don’t know how I’m going to entertain myself for that long without going nuts. If there is a God undoubtedly He has a similar problem. Taking very long naps would help. -ds

The debate is about unitelligent, blind/ undirected (non-goal oriented) processes (the anti-ID position) vs. intelligent, directed (goal oriented) processes (the ID position).

In that light if anyone accepts that life was the product of some divine Creation and we (humans) were the intent- that is ID.

And as I stated before there would be no reason to infer the anti-ID position for the diversity of life if life’s origins requires ID or Creation.

DC stated:
And the general methodology is to assume that processes that work on a small scale must also work on a large scale until very good evidence to the contrary shows up.

There is very sound logic and reasoning to doubt that:

Extrapolating From Small Changes

“If one desires to extrapolate small changes into large changes by simply adding time, one requires independent evidence to justify this move. The problem is that we really don’t know how evolution occurs. And when talking about the evolution of the mammalian middle ear bones, we should not forget that we are still basically in the dark in trying to explain how both a mammalian and reptilian zygote actually develops the middle ear and jaw bones, respectively. Without this knowledge, attempts to explain such a transition as a function of a series of small, incremental changes stretched across time are rooted in ignorance. That is, we don’t truly understand neither the process of development nor the process of evolution and without such knowledge, there is no reason to think we are on safe ground when employing (1).”

From what you say, I don’t think you’d be much impressed by molusc or trilobite transitions. If you figure ‘Darwin’s finches’ can be chalked up to micro-evolution, I’m pretty sure you’d say the same thing about the few marine invertibrate transitions that are well documented — since the changes are less exciting looking and took place over a longer period of time.

Probably the best shot at the kind of macro-evolution you’re looking for is the transition between amphibians and reptiles, and to an extent the split between mammals and reptiles. But I certainly wouldn’t claim that any of these are documented so well as to satisfy you. Though one of the things I thing supports evolutionary theory is the near impossiblity of placing some of the odd creatures that were running around 350-200 million years ago in any one of those catagories. While one can make anything fit (these are, after all, human defined catagories to an extent) the fact that there are these oddball creatures suggests to me progress through forms rather than the wholesale creation of new ones.

I wrote a bit about the difficulty of defining a transition here and here, should you be interested.

Of course, I understand that ID can be taken to mean that the ‘designed’ changes are very small, just a little statistics-defying nudge in the right direction. Indeed, I suppose by one account we could say that ID might even serve to encompass a completely unbroken evolutionary record — if one believed that the likelihood of it following that particular path of development was so vanishingly small as to suggest design. In this sense, I would agree with ID as a proof for God in the same sense that I agree with Aquinas’ proofs for the existence for God. However, since that still wouldn’t allow us to say anything about how God did it or when he would do such things again, I wouldn’t consider ID to be a scientific theory, just a very strong metaphysical indicator of God’s existence.

Which brings me to your point about atheism. I know it’s become common in some circles to lay atheism at Darwin’s door, but I honestly have to wonder if it’s not a bit of the other way around. I’d see modern atheism’s popularity as originating in the ‘enlightenment’ and French revolution — sixty years before Darwin. Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto nearly a decade before the publication of the Origin of Species. Churches and monestaries had already be repossessed, vandalized, and torn down for scrap well before Darwin wrote. And if I understand some of the comments on this very thread correctly, even belief in ID in no way prevents one from rejecting the Christianity.

Certainly, many atheists have latched onto Darwinism to ‘prove’ their point. But from the ones I know personally, I don’t think they would have done any differently without it.

On the question of extrapolating a small scale process to a large scale, I think your example actually supports my point. One can easily test the limits of building a rock pile, so it would be silly to think one could build one a mile high, much less a lightyear high. On the other hand, we have never found an ‘edge’ to the distance of which light will continue to travel at a constant speed or over which gravity will continue to act according to the same equations. So we assume that gravity and the speed of light work consistently throughout the universe. This may seem like a no-brainer, but it actually didn’t use to be the case. The Aristotelian model which was used to one extent or another until the 1600s assumed that the forces and substances we find on earth were wholly different from those found among the stars.

As far as ID advocates distorting evolution (probably not a point worth spending much time on — and it’s certainly true that the Dawkins and PZ Myers of the world do the same thing to ID) to really get into it I’d need one of Johnson’s books in front of me, since he strikes me as one of the prime offenders in that category. But to cite a single example I seem to recall Dembski saying he took responsibility for any errors on evolution in Coulter’s latest work (Look, you don’t get much more conservative than me, but please, Bill, Ann gets no respect, she’s just a loud voice. Don’t go there.) in which she stated that scientists teach whales descend from bears that fell in the water. That would be much more an example of Lemarkian evolution than the Darwinistic variety — and if it’s not a totally untrue summary of current theory, it’s so far off to be functionally equivalent to falsehood.

I think your example actually supports my point

Hardly. The rock pile won’t go very high before it goes no higher. We’ve tried and failed to go beyond a certain height. Mutation and selection won’t go very far before it goes no further. We’ve tried that too. The best example of the limit is the variety in dogs. For 20,000 years man has been breeding and artificially selecting dogs for any and all unusual traits. They’re all still dogs but there is quite a bit of variety in cosmetics and scale. -ds

Dave, thanks for your post.

My initial response morphed into a long running dialogue. I’ll narrow it down to a few specifics before posting in short form. I enjoyed the back and forth sparring with you and Scott and points made on each side.

off-topic, sorta, in the future… squared.
There’s cool new research technology for nano circuits – invisible, with expected application in Car Windows, etc., and another research project focused on the ability to warp light around objects to appear as if not there. Where the images are projected around bending the reflection of the light. The commercial appliations are years off, but look promising in research. I’m sure Defense will want to gawk this before the public.

So, invisible circuits with light bending around physical objects to appear invisible…. hmmm… by looking ahead, anyone with such advanced technology can maneuver without being detected to a large degree when perfected. This is sci-fi stuff, but experiments are being done which show promise.

I wonder what a Designer that creates worlds can do…

I wonder what *we* will be able to do 100 years, 1000 years, and 1 million years from now? For an inkling, just given current understanding of the laws that govern the universe, of what’s physically possible I highly recommend the following book: Engines of Creation by K.Eric Drexler. -ds

Jerry- An even better question would be “how about a tensed, syntactic language?”

Other creatures have things sort of like thumbs, and most of them seem to be conscious (where consciousness is understood as simple awareness) but no other creature has anything like human language. As far as I can tell, anyone who says otherwise is bluffing.

Our language is almost certainly the most complex but I think it’s unique in degree, not in kind. And our non-verbal language is primitive compared to many other animals. Before you say we have some kind of elevated consciousness however you should read this article: http://www.uncommondescent.com.....chives/715 -ds

It’s not who you know it’s who you are. What you do IS who you are.

-I went through and read everything, and I pulled out quotes from you and from Scott. I refute many of Scott’s comments, but only to weave them in as an answer to you. My comments start with a – mark. Where’s the edit features? I’m still trying to get the Dembski link to work.

How convenient. In the meantime tiny children that haven’t lived long enough to be greedy, selfish, or insensitive suffer. If you decide to talk about it start out by telling me what they did wrong. –ds

-I also have come to believe in reincarnation because there isn’t a better supposition and it does create a great avenue for improvement in justice, and a far better game plan. I do not think it must be nonChristian to accept reincarnation, but that would take too much ‘splainin for now. The children did nothing wrong, although of course they may indeed have negative karma. This is a very tricky part, because it can lead to complacency about suffering – ‘that kid must have been a murderer in a past life.’ There’s a lot more that could be said on that topic.
However, I find in myself and I think in others that belief in karma is sort of intuitively fundamental and is a far better check on bad behavior than the Christian one. That is because it is so easily understood, so accessible to daily reality, and so obviously just. Christianity holds a very big ax over everyone’s head – the punishment is either an incredible one of eternal suffering, or one gets off Scott free in the end no matter what you do. It’s just too much. Deep down, I think a lot of people don’t buy it. Thus it lacks power to change people. Karma, though, really only makes sense in terms of reincarnation, although much of it occurs in the very same life.

-But I never said that our evil actions don’t cause innocents to suffer. I said that it is up to us to stop it. Most of their suffering is caused by the fact we’re not running our world as we should. The thing you have to understand is that we are all in this together.
You can’t just ask God to stop us from doing wrong. That makes us either robots, or God the eternal policeman. Eternal because we would remain forever selfish people held in check by God. It also thinks too little of what a human being is. We have a great potential and destiny, but we won’t get there by being spoon fed.

I’m pretty sure I don’t want anything to do with a God that condemns a child for the sins of its parents.ds

-A wretched doctrine. If it makes you feel any better, it is one that the Eastern Orthodox Church does not hold. They believe all humans since Adam and Eve inherit the propensity to sin, but no one is born guilty. In fact, they also consider the doctrine that God required the death of his son as a propitiatory sacrifice a monstrous one, which turns people’s hearts away from God and defames his character. And what the heck is the Orthodox Church, anyway? Well, there are about 13 countries which have been Orthodox since their conversion – but you haven’t heard of them, and maybe it’s because they almost never go to war. At the time of the ecumenical councils there were 5 major bishoprics. Of those 5, 4 are still Orthodox. The 5th is Rome. I don’t say this to promote, but to let you know that the oldest and most venerable church of them all does not hold these modern doctrines.

As of now it’s my opinion that I’m not the one who needs to be forgiven. ds

-Good for you. Let me tell you why I admire Anthony Flew. In the interview I read, he quoted Thomas Aquinas as saying that the saved will perfectly see the sufferings of the damned, and it will be an increase of joy to them. He saw the ethical flaws in the doctrine he was taught, but he had the strength of FAITH to stand alone and wait for something better, (which meant becoming an atheist). He trusted his own inner voice. And then, even while that remained unresolved, he had the openness of mind to see that ID is the better argument and became an agnostic. That is a spiritual warrior, not the one who stays with the herd. I admire your agnosticism as well. God is big enough to take it, I’m sure.

I’m down here in the trenches trying to alleviate pain and suffering with my tiny ability while He’s sitting his omnipotent posterior on a throne in heaven apparently doing jack diddly squat in that regard. –ds
And if there is a Biblical judgment day… I’m afraid you’ll do no such thing, Dave. Rather, you’ll be flat on your face “as though dead” in the presence of a perfectly holy and perfectly just God who will ask you one simple question: What did you do with the provision of my son? Scott

-Jesus said almost nothing about getting into heaven, but Matthew 25. And so it really stands out. Kindness and compassion were big themes with him. That, and getting to know the Father inwardly, through the Holy Spirit. The only provisions Jesus talked about was the parable of the talents, and that refers to nurturing one’s spiritual gifts, which of course come from the Holy Spirit.

According to the Bible account, being born with a sin nature that separates us from our Creator does not mean that God sends babies to hell. The Bible indicates an age of accountability when each person becomes old enough to understand the message of Christ. Scott

-Where in scripture does it speak of an age of accountability? Because Christians were told for centuries that unbaptised babies go to hell. And what about all the majority of humanity who never heard of Christ? (And if babies go to heaven, then dying and suffering as an infant is a great gift, so great that it isn’t even fair.)

And as for doing “jack diddly squat”, I would suggest that He did everything needed to redeem a fallen creation, thru the sacrifice of his Son… where redemption is given as a free gift that cannot be earned. Scott

This is just too silly. You say we have to be perfect. I agree, but it is an inner spiritual journey, and a long and marvelous one. How are you going to be perfect if your saved self gets squashed by a truck tomorrow? Is God going to ‘make’ you be perfect? What happens to your free will then? What kind of cheap crown is that?

Grace is indeed a free gift which cannot be earned and has no price. Redemption is receiving grace, not fulfilling a danged legal contract! Receiving grace redeems because it quickens the spiritual faculty, which before was dormant. This brings life, joy, and inner guidance direct from God to the soul – not the cheap bill of goods being sold by the churches! Free means free – not “you do this and I’ll give you that.” That’s works!

“No Free Lunch” is more than just a book by Bill Dembski.ds

-Boy, do I agree with you.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast.”scott

- Read James. It isn’t the works that save, but the saved person is a transformed person and this will show up in their works. Faith and works can’t be separated and it’s time to stop trying. It’s not the works that save but the saved worketh no ill…It isn’t “believing in doctrines” (faith) that saves because God demands it. Faith means a bond with God. A bond with God means you are spiritually alive. Being spiritually alive IS salvation. I’m not going to be saved when I die, I’m saved now because I have understood who God is and love God without reservation. I have no fear of God. I don’t need the church. The world is my cathedral.

Otherwise you have to explain how the incredibly godly prophet Isaiah could say that his most righteous deeds are a filthy rag in the eyes of the Lord. It’s not about how good or bad you are, it’s about who ya know.

-Deeds, in and of themselves, are nothing. He was trying to describe the difference between spirit and matterialism.

If it were a plan penned by the hands of mere men, it would resemble the religions of the world: trying to appease a reluctant god by doing enough good and hoping it outweighs the bad when all is said and done. See, human nature wants to have something to do with it. Pride. The performance mentality gives us something we can touch and feel,.. Scott

-I’m tired of Christians dissing the religions of the world. Hinduism teaches that everyone will one day be enlightened and sin comes from ignorance. Buddhism teaches that everyone has the same pure, inner nature, and that all will one day be enlightened. And they praise the Boddhisattva, who is enlightened but elects to stay behind and help more people advance spiritually. Yet Christianity teaches that God couldn’t forgive us unless he was propitiated by the death of his son. Billy Graham said it: “God demanded a death.” Christianity does NOT make a good showing against the best religions of the world – but it could. My annoyance is not at the Christians like DarwinCatholic or Scott – it is at the miserable doctrines that they’ve been fed. Most Christians are people who want to lead a spiritual life and get to know God – but the doctrines make them take too much poison with the sugar and use fear to make them accept it.
And this relates to ID because these doctrines make a lot of people gag.

Thanks avocationist. We have much common ground. Reincarnation is something I don’t put much stock in though it is a consistent way to explain the injustice we see. You still seem to be blaming people for evil in the world and while that’s true for some of the bad I don’t see how a newborn with, for example, some hideous genetic abnormality is any person’s fault. The great flaw with Christianity that I see, and thanks for pointing out it isn’t universal in Chrisitan churches, is redemption by grace alone. This makes it too easy to do bad things and get away with it. Paradoxically I also see this as Christianity’s greatest practical virtue. When redemption can be obtained by grace alone through a personal relationship with Christ, off go the yokes of ritual and sacrifice that drag down civilizations with counterproductive behaviors that do nothing but try to appease a God who doesn’t appear to respond in any measureable way to the appeasement. Free of this constant need to expend energy to appease God and support a freeloading clergy class the people are able to devote more time to constructive activities like finding cures for disease and growing food and building hospitals (instead of churches) etcetera. This I believe is why the nations swept by the Protestant reformation 500 years ago have the highest living standards in the world today. -ds