Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An open letter to BSU President Jo Ann Gora

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Dear President Gora,

As an intelligent design advocate (Web page here) who contributes regularly to the ID Website Uncommon Descent, I would like to thank you for your recent statement to the faculty and staff of Ball State University, which clarifies your university’s official position regarding the teaching of intelligent design theory.

I hope you will not object if I ask you a few questions which your own faculty staff might want to pose to you, in future meetings.

Question 1

You referred to “intelligent design” in your email to Ball State University faculty and staff, without saying what you meant by the term. So I’d like to ask: exactly how do you define “intelligent design”? Specifically: does it include the cosmological fine-tuning argument, which purports to show that the the laws and constants of Nature were designed by some intelligent being? Does it include the scientific theory proposed by physicist Silas Beane (see here and here) that the universe we live in is a giant computer simulation? (The same idea was proposed back in 2003 in an influential paper by the Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom.) Does it include the theory that life on Earth was seeded by aliens, at some point in the past (never mind where they came from)? Does it include the evolutionary theory championed by Alfred Russel Wallace, who fully accepted evolution by natural selection as a fact which explained the diversity of living things, but who also believed on empirical grounds that unguided natural processes were, by themselves, unable to account for: (a) the origin of life; (b) the appearance of sentience in animals; and (c) the emergence of human intelligence?

Would a science lecturer at your university get into trouble for discussing these theories in a science classroom? Where do you draw the line, President Gora? What’s “in” and what’s “out,” at your university?

The reason why I ask is that the official definition of intelligent design at the Intelligent Design Website Uncommon Descent, on a Webpage entitled ID Defined, is quite broad:

The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.

In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose.

If you construe “intelligent design” more narrowly, could you please tell us what you mean by the term?

Question 2

Would you agree that the discussion of a bad scientific theory – even one whose claims has been soundly refuted by scientific testing, such as aether theories in physics, the phlogiston theory in chemistry, and vitalism in biology – can be productive and genuinely illuminating, in a university science classroom? The history of science, after all, is littered with dead ends and blind alleys, and scientists have learned a lot about the world – and about how to do science properly – from their past mistakes. Would you therefore agree, then, that even if the theory of intelligent design were found to be riddled with factual or theoretical flaws on a scientific level, that would not be a sufficient reason by itself to keep discussion of intelligent design out of the science classroom?

Question 3

If you answered “Yes” to question 2, as I expect you did, then I shall assume that for you, the decisive reason for keeping intelligent design out of the science classroom is that it is essentially religious in nature. As you wrote in your email: “Teaching religious ideas in a science course is clearly not appropriate.”

I would now invite you to consider the following two quotes by the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, an outspoken opponent of religion and a life-long atheist, as Jane Gregory notes in her biography, Fred Hoyle’s Universe (Oxford University Press, 2005, ISBN 0 780198 507918, p. 143), and to indicate: (i) whether you think they are religious claims, and (ii) whether you think a discussion of their scientific merits belongs in a science classroom at your university.

A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.
(The Universe: Past and Present Reflections, Engineering and Science, November 1981, p. 12.)

If one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.
(Hoyle, Fred, Evolution from Space, Omni Lecture, Royal Institution, London, 12 January 1982; Evolution from Space (1982) pp. 27–28 ISBN 0-89490-083-8; Evolution from Space: A Theory of Cosmic Creationism (1984) ISBN 0-671-49263-2)

I am of course well aware of the scientific literature relating to “Hoyle’s fallacy”, which Professor Richard Dawkins has taken great pains to refute. (Biologist Stephen Jones’ article, Fred Hoyle about the 747, the tornado and the junkyard, contains a very fair-minded discussion of the relevant issues, for those who are interested.) The point I’m making here is that if Hoyle’s claims are scientifically refutable, as neo-Darwinian biologists assert, then surely a discussion of the flaws in those claims belongs in a university science classroom. But since Hoyle referred to his own theory as “intelligent design,” it follows that a discussion of the flaws in intelligent design belongs in a university science classroom.

Now I hope you can see where I’m heading with this line of inquiry. If the discussion of the flaws in intelligent design theory belongs in a university science classroom, it logically follows that discussion of the theory itself belongs in a university science classroom. But that contradicts your email, which states that “[d]iscussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses,” clearly implying that a discussion of intelligent design has no place in a science classroom. Elsewhere in your email, you state that “intelligent design is not appropriate content for science courses,” which once again implies that any discussion of intelligent design is off-bounds at a Ball State University science course.

Indeed, a consistent application of your injunction to faculty staff to keep intelligent design out of the science classroom would mean that any science professor who gave a lecture exposing the errors in intelligent design theory would be in violation of your university’s official policy. Is that correct, President Gora?

Question 4

In your email, you state that “Intelligent design is overwhelmingly deemed by the scientific community as a religious belief and not a scientific theory.” I’m sure you can cite court decisions to back up that assertion of yours – notably the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court case of 2005.

I wonder if you have heard of the late Professor Richard Smalley (1943-2005), winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. In a letter sent to the Hope College Alumni Banquet where he was awarded a Distinguished Alumni Award in May 2005, Dr. Richard Smalley wrote:

Recently I have gone back to church regularly with a new focus to understand as best I can what it is that makes Christianity so vital and powerful in the lives of billions of people today, even though almost 2000 years have passed since the death and resurrection of Christ.

Although I suspect I will never fully understand, I now think the answer is very simple: it’s true. God did create the universe about 13.7 billion years ago, and of necessity has involved Himself with His creation ever since. The purpose of this universe is something that only God knows for sure, but it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life. We are somehow critically involved in His purpose. Our job is to sense that purpose as best we can, love one another, and help Him get that job done. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Towards the end of his life, Dr. Richard Smalley became an Old Earth creationist, after reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist). Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

I’m quite sure you will tell me that most biologists and chemists disagree with the late Nobel Prize Laureate, Dr. Richard Smalley, on whether the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution can account for the origin and diversity of life. Be that as it may, what interests me is that Dr. Smalley evidently felt that the question of whether life and the universe were intelligently designed was scientifically tractable. What’s more, he felt that science had already found the answer: “it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life.” That’s intelligent design.

So my question to you is: if a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry thought that intelligent design belongs in the category of “science”, what makes you so sure that it belongs in the category of religion? For that matter, was the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, being religious when he argued on scientific grounds that “superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology”? Is that what you are saying?

Finally, I note that you remark in your email that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory” (italics mine – VJT). However, the scientific community’s very rejection intelligent design as a scientific theory logically implies that it is a scientific theory – even if a bad one. Are you prepared to grant this point?

Question 5

In your email, you state:

Discussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses. However, even in such contexts, faculty must avoid endorsing one point of view over others.

I’d now like you to consider the hypothetical case of a humanities or social science lecturer at your university who is asked a very direct, personal question by a student: “Do you believe in intelligent design?” Let’s suppose that the lecturer answers like this:

Personally, I do. I should point out in all fairness that the vast majority of scientists currently reject intelligent design, and if you want to know why, then I’d invite you to have a look at the official statements on the Websites of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Astronomical Society, and the American Physical Society. I’ve spent some time sifting the arguments on both sides. I’m not a trained scientist; but I do have some (philosophical) training in spotting a bad argument. In my humble opinion, the scientific arguments against intelligent design are not very convincing; at most, they merely refute some of the more naive versions of intelligent design. Regarding the arguments in favor of intelligent design, I do think they raise some very real questions which science has not yet answered. Now you might say that some day it will answer those questions. And maybe you’re right. My own opinion – and I’d invite you to read the best books on both sides in order to arrive at yours – is that we already have enough information at our fingertips to conclude that most likely, the Universe itself – and life – was a put-up job. Who or what the “Putter-Upper” is, I leave for you to speculate, if you agree with my line of thinking.

In answering in this way, has the lecturer said anything that is “out of line” with your university’s policy on the separation of church and state? It should be noted that up to this point, the lecturer has not even expressed a belief in theism, let alone the tenets of any particular religion. Saying that the universe was designed (passive voice) says nothing, by itself, about the identity of the Designer.

Now suppose that the inquisitive student presses further: “Do you believe the Designer of life and the universe to be God?” and the lecturer answers, “Yes, that is my personal belief.” Does that answer qualify as “endorsing one point of view over others” – something which your email expressly prohibits? If not, why not?

What if, instead, the lecturer had answered the student’s question as follows: “I’m an atheist, and I think intelligent design is a load of pseudo-scientific religious claptrap.” Would such an answer constitute “endorsing one point of view over others”? If not, why not?

Well, I think five questions are quite enough for one day. Over to you, President Gora. Thank you taking the time and trouble to read this letter.

Yours sincerely,

Vincent Torley

Comments
Jul3s, Unguided evolution doesn't predict an objective nested hierarchy. Transitional forms prevent it.Joe
March 22, 2014
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Claiming that intelligence is too vague to be ruled out completely misses the point and is also a double-standard. Firstly, although ID cannot be falsified as such, it can be rendered unnecessary. For example, if it is demonstrated that processes that are unintelligent (as far as we know) can produce information and invent new structures, then ID isn't needed. Also, if the tree of life is a purely nested hierarchy etc., then ID is probably useless and therefore to be rejected. Secondly, every time some new finding is unexpected, the powers attributed to evolution are expanded to fit the new finding. Orphan genes, non-nested hierarchies, horizontal transfer, different genes (from the same species) telling different evolutionary stories etc. were not supposed to be possible. The advantage of the theory of evolution is supposed to be the fact that it has limits on what it can achieve. Until of course, those limits are found to be broken in nature and now suddenly, evolution can do all those things after all. Somehow.Jul3s
March 22, 2014
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CLAVDIVS, this fails to make a distinction between identifying something that is the result of intelligence and having to identify the Intelligence.Breckmin
August 31, 2013
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CLAVDIVS you claim that,,
Unless the ID claim of “intelligence” is narrowed down to exclude such scientifically untestable intelligences, then the ID claim of “intelligence cause” will remain untestable and unscientific.
Why? Just because I cannot rule out an entire population from potentially having committed a murder does not invalidate an inference that a murder has been committed! Moreover, the 'scientific' inference to intelligence is the very same method of inference that Darwin used to undergird his theory. Thus if ID is unscientific then so, by default, is Darwinism.
Stephen Meyer - The Scientific Basis Of Intelligent Design https://vimeo.com/32148403
Moreover, I hold that Darwinism is unscientific and ID is scientific for the former has no discernible demarcation criteria so as to delineate it as scientific whereas the later, ID, does,,, Moreover all the foundational presuppositions undergirding neo-Darwinism are found to be false. Reductive materialism is falsified by advances quantum mechanics. 'Randomness' (entropic processes of the universe) consistently destroy functional information instead of build it. Natural selection is 'empty' of true explanatory power and to the extent that it does do anything, it is found that Natural Selection reduces genetic information instead of creates it. see also Denis Nobel's lecture on the modern synthesis being false.bornagain77
August 31, 2013
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breckmin @ 147
remember CLAVDIVS that “intelligence” in biological systems is not claimed to be equal with theism. Theism is a later conclusion after intelligence is identified first.
Think about this for a second. You've just acknowledged that the umbrella term "intelligence" is so broad that it includes and is open to intelligences with god-like powers. But science cannot test the actions of god-like beings. No matter how "random" or "natural" something appears to us, it may be the planned action of a god-like superintelligence operating undetectably at the level of quantum physics, or by front-loading physical parameters at the beginning of time, or by the miraculous manipulation of matter. This is just not something that can ever be ruled out, therefore it is outside the scope of science. This is precisely why the ID claim of "intelligent cause" is too vague and unqualified to be tested scientifically - it is so broad that it can include poltergeists, scientology thetans, or demonic and angelic powers, to name a few. Unless the ID claim of "intelligence" is narrowed down to exclude such scientifically untestable intelligences, then the ID claim of "intelligence cause" will remain untestable and unscientific.CLAVDIVS
August 31, 2013
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remember CLAVDIVS that "intelligence" in biological systems is not claimed to be equal with theism. Theism is a later conclusion after intelligence is identified first.Breckmin
August 30, 2013
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CLAVDIVS @ 96 CLAVDIVS wrote:
Your claim appears to be that, since many instances of a particular type of information (useful, schematic, algorithmic etc.) have been observed to derive from an intelligent cause, then we are justified in inferring that all instances of such information, including from biology, have an intelligent cause. There are several problems with this. Firstly, you claim the argument “all As are B” can be scientifically tested because it can be falsified by finding an instance of A that is not B. Sorry, no, not if B is so vague and unlimited that it is impossible in principle to find an instance of A that is not B. And that’s the case here: it is impossible in principle to find any observation that is inconsistent with an unlimited “intelligent cause”. Therefore, the claim “all As are due to an intelligent cause” is impossible in principle to falsify, and thus the claim not scientifically testable.
How is "intelligence" or "the result of intelligence" so vague that we can't test "non-intelligence" natural processes or random ability to generate such order or arrangement. A strand of useful RNA - or RNA that displayed information that was meaningful - would be enough. And you don't need to identify the "intelligence," all you need to do is identify what is the result of intelligence. It's not vague.
Secondly, the argument “every instance of A we have observed has been B, therefore all As are B” is simply a fallacy. Every swan ever observed was white, up until the discovery of Australian black swans.
If we knew every swan's location in the world, however, and there were no black swans, then we could make the assertion (unless we knew that there could be a mutation process that could produce a future black swan). But this is apples and oranges and quite different with information. We are looking a a whole identity NOT a part of it. I would be like saying a swan is or isn't a bird rather than a characteristic such as a color. Just as we would know all swans are birds, we could no all programs/codes/coding comes from programmers/authors/code makers.
And thirdly, you claim “ALL current finds demonstrate that sequences of arranged useful information always come from intelligence.” Actually, no; we do not know whether the arranged useful information in biological life came from an intelligent cause, which is of course the very question we are supposed to be answering, so this is begging the question.
We can test "if any" information can come from random processes...we can also see with RNA could ever be observed to form naturally at the level that would be required for prokaryotes.Breckmin
August 30, 2013
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Querius @ 92 The distinction of ID in biological systems can still be first made as a distinction between what intelligence is responsible. The theistic implication is later... Information in biological systems that is identified as the product of Intelligence comes first...then your argument against panspermia can be made when you bring in FTH (fine tuning)also and demonstrate agnostic theism as a scientific conclusion (first you have to argue also that scientific investigation can conclude/include theistic implication). Religious implication comes much later.Breckmin
August 30, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
No, Joe, it is a problem for the unqualified ID claim of “intelligent cause”, because it means it can’t be tested.
No, CLAVDIVS, it is a problem for the unqualified materialism claim of nature didit, because it means it can’t be tested.
But the theory of ID, according to this website, makes no claim about murders or artifacts, does it?
Murders and artifacts = "intelligent causes", duh.
And the claim “all deaths have an intelligent cause” cannot be disproved, can it?
We seem to be doing a good job of doing exactly that.
The design inference, however, at the level of “this was designed by an intelligence” is not scientific.
Of course it is.
The science part is what follows from the speculation, where explanations that are testable by the methods of science are put forward and checked out against the evidence.
By your "logic" nothing is testable and science is nonsense.Joe
August 10, 2013
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Axel @ 142
Leaving aside the fashioning of tools by animals, there is only Nature and man’s intelligent designs. It is no more than rational to extrapolate a creative intelligence behind the design in nature.
Absolutely. It is perfectly rational to extrapolate a creative intelligence behind the design in nature. However, such an extrapolation is not science unless it is put into the form of a testable explanation. So long as the extrapolation remains in a form that can't be tested then - however rational and reasonable and generally agreed-upon it may be - it is a metaphysical or philosophical speculation, and not a scientifically testable explanation. Which is what I've been saying all along.CLAVDIVS
August 9, 2013
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Axel @ 140
And the science part of ID is being increasingly carried out with enormous success, although ‘small beer’, compared to Nature, itself. It is called, I believe, the ‘reverse engineering biomimetics’.
You're going to have to tell me what explanations are being tested in the field of biomimetics that you are calling ID science. Because if the explanation is just "it had an intelligent cause", then it's not scientific because it can't be tested or falsified, as I have shown many times on this thread. But if the explanation is e.g. that beavers build their dams intelligently to hide from predators, then you're talking about the already established scientific area of ethology, which is part of biology, and is not something that has ever been claimed to be part of ID as far as I am aware. So, please explain what explanations are being offered and tested in the area of biomimetics that you're referring to here.CLAVDIVS
August 9, 2013
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Give an example, CLAVDIVS, of an object which appears to be an artifact, in the sense of its having been designed, fashioned even, and not simply natural, but which was not designed by a human intelligence - or an ape's, if it's fashioned. Leaving aside the fashioning of tools by animals, there is only Nature and man's intelligent designs. It is no more than rational to extrapolate a creative intelligence behind the design in nature. All the evolutionary conjecture is flim-flam, generated by an overweening pride, hubris and an unsurprising desire to force the facts to fit the evolutionists' fancies. Their nemesis must have been in the pipeline a long time, now, but it can't be much longer before it manifests.Axel
August 9, 2013
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'The science part is what follows from the speculation, where explanations that are testable by the methods of science are put forward and checked out against the evidence.' Absolutely. And the science part of ID is being increasingly carried out with enormous success, although 'small beer', compared to Nature, itself. It is called, I believe, the 'reverse engineering biomimetics'.Axel
August 9, 2013
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Joe @ 137
First they determined [Stonehenge] was designed. And THEN they set out studying it and all relevent evidence. And no one knows who built it, how they built it nor why it was built. And Stonehenge is super simple compared to a living organism.
I think you're right Joe. First the inference of design, then detailed study of evidence. The design inference, however, at the level of "this was designed by an intelligence" is not scientific. Rather it is a metaphysical speculation - a speculation I agree is rational, reasonable and indeed true, but unscientific nonetheless. The science part is what follows from the speculation, where explanations that are testable by the methods of science are put forward and checked out against the evidence.CLAVDIVS
August 9, 2013
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Joe @ 136
CLAVDIVS: But we cannot demonstrate nature operating free from intelligent cause, can we? Joe: That’s your problem, not mine.
No, Joe, it is a problem for the unqualified ID claim of "intelligent cause", because it means it can't be tested. It is precisely my point that, if "nature operating free from intelligent cause" cannot possibly be demonstrated - as you tacitly agree right here - then the ID claim of "intelligent cause" cannot possibly be falsified, and thus is unscientific. Demonstrating nature doing something free from intelligence is the test you propose for your explanation of "intelligent cause". I'm only pointing out that your proposed test cannot in principle be carried out, and so it follows as night follows day that your explanation of "intelligent cause" is untestable, unfalsifiable and unscientific. Please don't try to blame me for the own goal.
Do you think that all deaths are murders and all rocks are artifacts?
But the theory of ID, according to this website, makes no claim about murders or artifacts, does it? Its claim is restricted to the explanation "intelligent cause", without qualification. And the claim "all deaths have an intelligent cause" cannot be disproved, can it? This is because the claim does not define or limit the nature of the "intelligence" in any way. Maybe a superintellect with perfect foresight designed the laws of physics at the beginning of time so ultimately biological lifeforms emerge, all of which die in accordance with an intelligent plan. Or maybe all deaths are intelligently caused by scientology thetans who mentally control all aspects of physical reality. These sorts of claims, whether true or false, are simply not testable. And since the unqualified claim "intelligent cause" includes such claims under its umbrella (as it must because no boundaries or limits are placed on the nature of the claimed intelligence) then it follows that the unqualified claim of "intelligent cause" is not testable and not scientific.CLAVDIVS
August 9, 2013
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ID doesn’t prevent anyone from asking nor trying to answer those questions [i.e., questions about how specified designs were built and implemented in nature].
Fair enough, but then ID is not a theory.
Cuz you baldly assert that it isn't? LoL!
You essentially have an ID principle that says, ‘if X has some quantity of functional information, then an intelligent being probably designed some or all of it at some previous point in time.’
Just like archaeology and forensic science. Perhaps those aren't theories either. ID just makes them separate- just as evolutionism tries to make the ooL a separate question.
There are a few problems with this analogy, but the one that I think stands out is that the term “intelligent” in the name of your theory obligates you to deal origin of design-type questions such as how specified designs were built and implemented in nature.
Nope, you just made that up.
By determining that an intelligence acted on or influenced X, you are committing to a position that says X may yield clues to the intentions and foresight of that actor/influencer. To study design is to build a hypothesis about those intentions and foresight.
That could be PART of it but it ain't required. And it ain't required to determine design is present and then study it.
If you don’t want to deal with intentions and foresight, then you need to change the theory’s focus to something other than ‘intelligent design.’ Maybe you mean biological design or physical design.
Intelligent Design works fine for those who know what they are talking about.
I agree with your first statement, which is why it’s puzzling that a theory of intelligent design, but your account, would avoid inquiring into the intelligent part of it.
It's a SEPARATE question Larry. Meaning "how" is separate from the fact it was designed.
Stonehenge is a perfect illustration of my case.
No, Stonehenge is a perfect illustration of MY case.
The reason archaeology is useful is that from the physical traces of past civilizations it seeks to reconstruct immediate intentions and foresight, and to reconstruct the communities and cultural emphases/values of the people who left these traces.
How do they do that Larry? I bet it is exactly how I said. Firsdt they determined it was designed. And THEN they set out studying it and all relevent evidence. And no one knows who built it, how they built it nor why it was built. And Stonehenge is super simple compared to a living organism. Just how can we figure out the how wrt something that is way over our heads- designing living organisms?Joe
August 9, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
But we cannot demonstrate nature operating free from intelligent cause, can we?
That's your problem, not mine. Do you think that all deaths are murders and all rocks are artifacts?
The ID claim of “intelligent cause” doesn’t rule such things out, and therefore it is unfalsifiable.
Actually it does- all deaths are not murders and all rocks are NOT artifacts!Joe
August 9, 2013
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Joe @ 132:
ID doesn’t prevent anyone from asking nor trying to answer those questions [i.e., questions about how specified designs were built and implemented in nature].
Fair enough, but then ID is not a theory. You essentially have an ID principle that says, 'if X has some quantity of functional information, then an intelligent being probably designed some or all of it at some previous point in time.'
ID just makes them separate- just as evolutionism tries to make the ooL a separate question.
There are a few problems with this analogy, but the one that I think stands out is that the term "intelligent" in the name of your theory obligates you to deal origin of design-type questions such as how specified designs were built and implemented in nature. By determining that an intelligence acted on or influenced X, you are committing to a position that says X may yield clues to the intentions and foresight of that actor/influencer. To study design is to build a hypothesis about those intentions and foresight. If you don't want to deal with intentions and foresight, then you need to change the theory's focus to something other than 'intelligent design.' Maybe you mean biological design or physical design.
We study things so that we can understand them. Heck look at Stonehenge- we don’t know how, by who nor why it was built and it is just stones! So by your “logic” archaeology is useless.
I agree with your first statement, which is why it's puzzling that a theory of intelligent design, but your account, would avoid inquiring into the intelligent part of it. Stonehenge is a perfect illustration of my case. The reason archaeology is useful is that from the physical traces of past civilizations it seeks to reconstruct immediate intentions and foresight, and to reconstruct the communities and cultural emphases/values of the people who left these traces. Stonehenge is interesting for itself, but even more so for the window it potentially opens on its makers.LarTanner
August 8, 2013
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Joe @ 115
CLAVDIVS: However, the bare inference of “intelligent cause” has no such limits or qualifications, and can therefore be said to explain absolutely any state of affairs, without the possibility of being proved false. Joe: Yes it can- merely by demonstrating that nature, operating freely, can produce it.
But we cannot demonstrate nature operating free from intelligent cause, can we? How do we exclude scientology thetans, for example, from influencing the demonstration? The ID claim of "intelligent cause" doesn't rule such things out, and therefore it is unfalsifiable. That is why I say the ID claim of "intelligent cause" is too vague and unqualified - it needs to be more limited in order to be falsifiable, like the claim "the computer was made by humans in 1984". This involves intelligent agents - humans - yet it can be falsified e.g. by showing the computer has an Intel Core i7 chip.CLAVDIVS
August 8, 2013
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vjtorley @ 105 ... continued
2. If claim X is not scientifically testable, then by the same token, the claim “not-X” is’t scientifically testable either. So if you reject the claim that life (or for that matter, the diversity of life-forms we see on earth today) was produced by some intelligent agent as unscientific, then you must also reject the claim that life (or the diversity of life-forms existing currently) is the product of some undirected process as equally unscientific.
Of course I agree. "Life is not the product of some intelligent agent" is equally vague and untestable as "Life is the product of some intelligent agent".
Letter from 38 Nobel Laureates against ID, 2005: Logically derived from confirmable evidence, evolution is understood to be the result of an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection. (Emphasis mine – VJT) vjtorley: Do you agree that by the Nobel Laureates’ own definition of “evolution”, evolution is not a scientific theory?
I certainly agree that the philosophical view that evolution is unguided is not scientifically testable. This letter is very stupidly written for it jumbles up the science of evolution, which is testable, with a philosophical view of evolution which is not testable. It is also completely unrepresentative of the philosophical views of the scientific community: 40% of scientists and 47% of high school biology teachers accept evolution is guided.
3. Do you regard the first and second laws of thermodynamics as scientific statements? The first law says that energy can never be created or destroyed; the second says that the entropy of any isolated system will never decrease.
Yes, they are scientific statements.
If you accept these statements as scientific, then it is hard to see why you would reject as unscientific the claim that every independently specifiable pattern observed in Nature whose probability of arising from stochastic and/or law-governed processes is less than 10^-150 is not the result of chance or necessity, but of an intelligent agent. One could certainly think of observations that would falsify the claim.
I don't think it's hard to see at all. The problem with the claim "certain patterns have an intelligent cause" is exactly the same as the problem with the Nobel Laureates' claim "evolution is unguided" - neither can be falsified. It's actually not possible to think of an observation that cannot be explained by saying it had an intelligent cause. To illustrate, let's assume arguendo ;-) that scientology is true, and the entire physical universe is an outgrowth of, and under the control of, the minds of superintelligent spiritual beings called thetans. Under this assumption, absolutely any pattern or observation can be said to be caused by an intelligent agent - namely, the thetans - and thus this claim cannot be falsified, because no conceivable state of affairs is inconsistent with the concept of intelligent thetans causing everything. Now the bare claim "intelligent cause", because it is unqualified, does not rule out the unfalsifiable concept of thetans. Therefore, the claim "intelligent cause" is unfalsifiable too, because no matter what pattern or measurement is observed, one can always claim it was casued by the intelligent action of thetans, which are not ruled out by unqualified the claim of "intelligent cause". In contrast, the claim "energy cannot be created or destroyed" can be falsified by demonstrating the creation or destruction of energy. And the claim "the computer was made by humans in 1984" can be falsified by showing it has an Intel Core i7 chip, which did not exist in 1984.
4. You write that in order to be truly scientific, a claim about intelligent agency must stipulate that an entity “was made at a particular time, from particular materials, with particular tools or methods.” Fair enough. So even if you consider ID as a whole to be metaphysical rather than scientific, you would be prepared to grant that sub-hypotheses consistent with ID methodology are scientific – e.g. the hypothesis that life was made 3.9 billion years ago (i.e. as soon as the crust was cool enough to support life over the long-term), from DNA (because it’s the best molecule for the job) and by a process of assembling the components of the first cell in order XYZ? Am I reading you aright?
If there's an observation we could make that would falsify an idea, then it's scientifically testable - whether or not it's consistent with ID methodology. I'm not aware of any ID proponent claiming DNA was made 3.9 billion years ago by artifical assembly of atoms and molecules in a particular order. Raelians make a claim like this. How would you propose to test this idea?CLAVDIVS
August 8, 2013
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LarTanner:
So, in 102 ID does have something to say about the origin of coding nucleotides, but in 123 ID is unconcerned with their origin.
No, I never said ID is unconcerned with their origin. That is all in your head.
In 123, the concern is only with being able to make an assertion that coding nucleotides were designed. But then I don’t see how we have a theory if it doesn’t go beyond asserting design.
Larry are you having problems reading what I post? ID is about the detection AND STUDY of design in nature.
But once you determine design, all these questions become mandatory at least to ask — a theory of intelligent design cannot avoid asking them. Agree?
The theory doesn't care- WE DO. And we will ask those questions and seek answers to them. However that is outside of ID.
My point is that an intelligent design theory should include both parts that you yourself have identified, the design assertion and speculation on how design was implemented.
I disagree. ID doesn't prevent anyone from asking nor trying to answer those questions. ID just makes them separate- just as evolutionism tries to make the ooL a separate question.
Isn’t such speculation on how design was implemented exactly what is meant by the “study of design in nature”?
We study things so that we can understand them. Heck look at Stonehenge- we don't know how, by who nor why it was built and it is just stones! So by your "logic" archaeology is useless. Just how can we figure out the how wrt something that is way over our heads- designing living organisms?Joe
August 8, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 95,
I don’t understand why you would be leery since it illustrates the problem that Darwinism is facing quite well.
Oversimplifying to make my point, I'm specifically referring to things like calculating the combinations of atoms that might be randomly assembled to create a protein . . . but out of the full Periodic Table rather than only H, C, N, O, and a few others. It's too easy to criticize based on the fact that these elements combine in limited configurations, most certainly following a non-random assembly process. Besides, the problem of assembling and maintaining a large number of complex chemical processes within the cell should be insurmountable enough. ;-)Querius
August 7, 2013
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So LarTanner, you state: "I did not question the notion of intentionality." Thus do you admit that you have intention and free will? i.e. Ignoring the personal attack, which is usual from atheists instead of ever honestly addressing the issue especially when they might have to admit to the reality of God, does this now mean you concede that you have a mind? And if not are you an automaton who has no choice but to post the insane nonsense that you do? Please try to focus and answer the question honestly instead of attacking me personally will you!bornagain77
August 7, 2013
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BA @ 125. I did not question the notion of intentionality. If you were paying attention instead of searching for a new, creepy "jeebus touches me privately" video, you would have discerned that I was asking about Joe's concept of intention in #114 -- Joe's concept. Direct your inane creationist questions to him. In fact, I really wish you would talk to Joe. I like a good online kook fight. Now go away.LarTanner
August 7, 2013
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corrected link: Does Science Show That Miracles Can’t Happen? (Alvin Plantinga) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXK5ELicqxobornagain77
August 7, 2013
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correction: assuming that you are honest enough TO ADMIT the necessity and thus reality of your own mind,bornagain77
August 7, 2013
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LT, as to the second part of your question, assuming that you are honest enough the necessity and thus reality of your own mind, then these following videos are along the lines of addressing how God may act within this universe: Alvin Plantinga: Divine Action - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5DPneR-Rtc Does Science Show That Miracles Can't Happen? (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcvSSQGYIu8 John Lennox - Science And Miracles - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB71Vzw71eo of note: Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. What blows most people away, when they first encounter quantum mechanics, is the quantum foundation of our material reality blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. Most people consider defying time and space to be a 'miraculous & supernatural' event. I know I certainly do! Moreover, there is certainly nothing within quantum mechanics that precludes miracles from being possible: How can an Immaterial God Interact with the Physical Universe? (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfzD3ofUb4bornagain77
August 7, 2013
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LT, after you questioned intentionality,,, "As far as the concept of intention goes, how does one discern intention?" ,,,I pointed out that either you intended your post or you are an automaton who has no choice but to post insane nonsense that you do. You then indignantly state,,, "BA, Your attempt to sidetrack the discussion is noted, laughed at, and forgotten." But LT you were the one who questioned how to discern intentionality. I was merely trying to help you! Please do try to stay up with what you yourself are talking about will you! You really are making atheists look worse than usual when you don't even try to hide how biased you are. Thus once again I ask you, did you intend to write your post or was it just the result of some random motion of molecules in your brain? And if intentionality and free will does not exist in your worldview does that make you an automaton who as no choice but to post insane nonsense?? Please try to answer honestly for once will you!bornagain77
August 7, 2013
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Joe @ 123: I don't think you are entirely consistent. In comment 102 you say this:
LT: Now, would a specific ID claim concern what the origin is of “the coding nucleotides of the genes involved”?
Joe: Yes, it would.
Now, in comment 123, you say this:
LT: Shouldn’t the theory of intelligent design say something more about how the coding nucleotide was designed and manufactured?
Joe: Nope, those are separate questions.
So, in 102 ID does have something to say about the origin of coding nucleotides, but in 123 ID is unconcerned with their origin. In 123, the concern is only with being able to make an assertion that coding nucleotides were designed. But then I don't see how we have a theory if it doesn't go beyond asserting design. Look, you called me anti-ID and I am not. I am happy to listen to you assert that coding nucleotides were designed, but if you have nothing else to tell me beyond the assertion then how seriously should I take it? I actually agree that you do not need to know "the who, how, why, when" to determine design. But once you determine design, all these questions become mandatory at least to ask -- a theory of intelligent design cannot avoid asking them. Agree? You also say:
reality dictates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence.
This makes my point above. You study coding nucleotides and all the evidence -- and from all this you determine that coding nucleotides were designed. As you say above, you also look at coding nucleotides and try to hypothesize what specific processes were used. My point is that an intelligent design theory should include both parts that you yourself have identified, the design assertion and speculation on how design was implemented. Isn't such speculation on how design was implemented exactly what is meant by the "study of design in nature"? Or, what does it mean to study design if not to examine how it might have come to be? Admire its artfulness?LarTanner
August 7, 2013
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LarTanner:
Joe @ 110: This is a disappointing answer if this is all you intend to provide.
That is your opinion. However anyone who has ever conducted an investigation knows saying that says quite a bit.
Shouldn’t the theory of intelligent design say something more about how the coding nucleotide was designed and manufactured?
Nope, those are separate questions. IOW once again an anti-IDist proves that ID, ie the design inference, is not a scientific dead-end as it opens up new questions that we will seek answers for.
Was the entire thing designed at one time or in stages? Was everything designed or only some key components? Were any technologies involved in the design? Were there “earlier versions” or “false starts”?
Look, reality dictates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. So first one has to determine design and that doesn't require knowing anything about the who, how, why, when.
As far as the concept of intention goes, how does one discern intention?
Exactly how Behe said in "Darwin's Black Box: "the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.”
Can a biological system work yet not be what was intended originally? Can it ‘succeed’ yet fail to meet the intention or fail to meet it fully? Can intention change?
Yes the design can change, by design. Dr Spetner calls it "built-in responses to environmental cues".
You must agree that a theory of intelligent design should be able to address such questions.
ID is the detection and study of design in nature.Joe
August 7, 2013
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