Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Honest Presentation of the Evidence in our Public Schools

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Let’s face it, the reason Darwinian evolution is so controversial, especially in the public schools, is that it has profound implications concerning who we are, where we came from, and whether or not our lives have ultimate meaning and purpose. This is not the case in chemistry, physics or mathematics. Schoolchildren are not as unperceptive as some people would like to believe, and they pick up on these implications immediately, as my daughter did in the seventh grade.

Darwinian theory has been singled out for special scrutiny in public education not only for this reason, which should be enough, but because the evidence is not nearly as solid as it is in the hard sciences such as those mentioned above.

In a previous thread (https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1514) I commented about the suppression of evidence and discussion concerning Darwinian theory in the public schools. I don’t advocate for the teaching of ID in the public schools, and I do agree that evolution has occurred. Things are not now as they once were, so “evolution” has taken place by definition — living things have changed over time. There is no substantive controversy here.

What I object to is an incomplete at best, and dishonest at worst, presentation of the evidence for Darwinian theory in public education. Here are some proposals for how the evidence could be more appropriately presented without “subverting science.” Perhaps commenters could add to the list, and I’d be curious as to why anyone would object to such an approach.

***

Present the evidence of changing finch beaks with changing weather conditions, and talk about how some scientists propose that these changes can be extrapolated over long periods of time to explain the origin of completely new and different life forms. But also mention that these changes have been observed to be cyclic, and that some question the validity of extrapolating these minor changes to explain major biological innovation. Ditto for peppered moths.

Point out that bacteria develop antibiotic resistance through the evolutionary process of natural selection, but add that experiments with thousands of generations of bacteria subjected to harsh selection pressures have yet to produce a fundamentally new variety of bacteria.

Observe that scientists propose that the development of embryos suggests the recapitulation of evolutionary history, but point out that the similarities assumed in the past are not what they were once thought to be, and that the earliest stages of development are not the most similar.

Mention all the classic examples of transitional forms in the fossil record, but also mention that some prominent paleontologists (e.g., Gould and Eldredge) have questioned whether or not the overall fossil evidence supports the traditional view of Darwinian gradualism. Offer the incompleteness of the fossil record as a possible explanation, but observe that the seamless gradation of living forms predicted by Darwinian theory has yet to be conclusively established.

Discuss the Cambrian explosion. Offer the standard explanations for this remarkable phenomenon (incompleteness of the fossil record and the likelihood that soft-bodied predecessors would not fossilize), but also mention that some argue that the Cambrian explosion presents a problem for standard evolutionary theory because so many new body plans appear in such a short period of time, and this would seem to contradict the proposal that new body plans should originate in the leaves of the tree of life and not the trunk.

Mention the Miller-Urey experiment and the formation of amino acids by a natural process (after all, it is a classic event in the history of origin-of-life studies), but mention that scientists now believe that conditions on the early earth were not those used in the experiment, and that no concrete explanation has been offered for how those amino acids could have formed biologically meaningful proteins by undirected chemical means.

Talk about various origin-of-life theories and the fact that many scientists are confident that an explanation will eventually be found, but mention that the current state of affairs in origin-of-life studies is many mutually contradictory hypotheses, and that the origin of information in DNA is a particularly difficult problem.

***

I don’t see why such an approach would be unreasonable at all, why students could not understand such a presentation of the evidence, why they would be confused by it, or why it would subvert science. Students could evaluate for themselves whether or not they find the evidence convincing, which should be their prerogative. After all, where they came from and why they are here is a very important matter.

Comments
It would be interesting to see the students' reaction to the following quote from "The Privileged Planet" after being told the Earth-Moon system formed by "sheer-dumb-luck" (the materialistic anti-ID position):
“There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.”
Then have them do the math to figure out how old this system is given the recession rates and the shortest possible starting distance (The shortest distance the proto-moon would have to be in order to form as opposed to raining back on the proto-earth).Joseph
September 5, 2006
September
09
Sep
5
05
2006
03:59 PM
3
03
59
PM
PDT
Carlos: The discovery of an artiodactyl-like structure in the Pakicetus ankle bone therefore counts as converging with the biochemical story. I thought it was the ankle-like structure said to belong to the BasilosaurusJoseph
September 4, 2006
September
09
Sep
4
04
2006
03:36 PM
3
03
36
PM
PDT
Charlie, The mesonychid-whale connection was based on (a) similarities between tooth structure and (b) not really knowing where else to put cetaceans. That connection was posited before Pakicetus was discovered. The DNA evidence put cetaceans in with the artiodactyls, and in particular, close to hippos. This has been corroborated by protein comparisons and by gross morphology. However, the two groups seem to have developed aquatic adaptations independently. The discovery of an artiodactyl-like structure in the Pakicetus ankle bone therefore counts as converging with the biochemical story. I remember reading, as a child, about Ramapithecus, which was regarded by many paleontologists as ancestral to hominids. But Ramapithecus lived about fifteen million years ago. When new biochemical evidence put the hominid-pongid split at 5-7 million years ago, a lot of paleontologists thought that the biochemists had to be wrong -- it was too late to accomodate Ramapithecus, after all. But subsequent fossil discoveries showed that (a) Ramapithecus is closely related to Sivapithecus, an extinct relative of the orangutang, and (b) very early hominids, dated to around 4-5 million years, have many features in common with chimps. I would predict that when we look at hominioid remains older than five million years, we won't be able to tell the human ancestors apart from the chimp ancestors -- which is consistent with what biochemical evidence we have. The trick to seeing the power of evolutionary thinking is that it allows us to integrate into a systematic explanation the results of many different lines of evidence -- paleontological, behavioral, biogeographical, anatomical, developmental, genetic, etc. Without the evolutionary explanation, all one has is a whole lot of weird coincidences, or a very devious designer.Carlos
September 2, 2006
September
09
Sep
2
02
2006
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PDT
Ofro, Unfortunately I must expose my ignorance here and ask some real questions which are not nevessarily going to pan out to be challenges. Not so long ago it was as good as confirmed that whales evolved from hooved carnivores called mesonychids. Pakicetus was one of those, was it not? Gingerich was quite sure. But molecular researchers said that no, the studies showed that artiodactyls are most closely allied with whales. Gingerich said "you're wrong". Then he found a part of an ankle bone (he called it a whale's ankle bone, did he not?) and then decided that the molecular researchers were right, and that whales did descend from artiodactyls. My questions, if my chronology and facts above are accurate, are these: Is pakicetus now an artiodact? How come? The ankle-bone was not that of pakicetus, was it? If it is not now an artiodactyl, is it still considered an ancestor to the whale? If it is now an artiodactyl, how does the DNA evidence "converge" with the fossil evidence when the fossil claims can be dictated by the DNA claims? The fossils obviously have no DNA, and their relatedness to living species is also a matter of interpretation. How does interpreting the two lines of data as convergent stand as evidence of convergence?Charlie
September 2, 2006
September
09
Sep
2
02
2006
09:04 AM
9
09
04
AM
PDT
Ofro: You are critical of the proposed evolutionary sequence leading from the artiodactyls to the cetaceans. Any objective person would be. That is given what we have and what we know. Ofro: As you probably know, there are several independent lines of evidence in support of this process. Very subjective lines. One or a few fossils compared to what there should be-> 50,000+. Ofro: The original suggestion, which was made on anatomical grounds, is verified by DNA evidence by three different independent lines or comparisons: the amino acid sequence of proteins, mitochondrial DNA and short and long interspersed elements in the genomes. So this is strong inferential evidence in favor of a common ancestry of the two groups. Or a common design of living organisms. One other alternative is that the organisms on Earth were placed here via direct colonization efforts. What we need to substantiate ANY mechanism is a way to objectively test it. And right now we cannot objectively test the premise that cetaceans "evolved" from land animals. Sure there are plenty of subjective tests but those assume the very premise which we are trying to explore! Perhaps if the CDists could tell us what mutations afforded what changes. Or even better a way to test the premise that genomic changes can afford such changes- we don't even know that. All we do have is a speculation based on an assumption. Evolutionism (CD) needs to explain the differences NOT the similarities. Note: I do not reject the premise of UCD. I am questioning its scientifc validity in the light that it cannot be objectively tested. However if it is assumed then it is easy to find what we could consider supporting evidence. But that could be done with just about anything.Joseph
September 2, 2006
September
09
Sep
2
02
2006
07:27 AM
7
07
27
AM
PDT
Ofro, I think the question is quite on-topic. I too am uncertain as to just what excatly is considered in doubt, and in particular whether common descent is considered in doubt. It seems to more "reasonable", from some point of view, to hypothesize that God guides genetic changes in order to produce changes in species through the process of reproduction and parent-child birth relationships that it does to hypothesize that species are instantaneously materialized into existence. I think this question is pertinent because, going back to the opening post, I would think that a curious student would want to ask the question, "If evolution didn't happen, what did?" It would seem like ID advocates should be working on offering hypotheses about this issue, and ways to test those hypotheses.Jack Krebs
September 1, 2006
September
09
Sep
1
01
2006
08:35 PM
8
08
35
PM
PDT
Joseph: You are critical of the proposed evolutionary sequence leading from the artiodactyls to the cetaceans. As you probably know, there are several independent lines of evidence in support of this process. The original suggestion, which was made on anatomical grounds, is verified by DNA evidence by three different independent lines or comparisons: the amino acid sequence of proteins, mitochondrial DNA and short and long interspersed elements in the genomes. So this is strong inferential evidence in favor of a common ancestry of the two groups. I am trying to figure out the different mechanisms that are compete on this site with the evolutionary model. One mechanism, I gather, involves “front-loading” the genome of an ancestral organism, which enables an evolving organism to adapt to different ecological niches. I am not sure if you subscribe to this notion since you are also questioning the possibility of morphological changes during evolutionary progression. The only other mechanism I can think of is some form of special creation that occurred at various times, giving rise to new phyla, orders, etc. I would appreciate it if you – or anybody else – could point out other possible explanatory mechanism so I can compare them all. I realize that this may be going somewhat off-topic.ofro
September 1, 2006
September
09
Sep
1
01
2006
06:35 PM
6
06
35
PM
PDT
Carlos: We do have a reasonably decent fossil sequence from fully terrestrial mammals to fully aquatic mammals (i.e. ancient and modern whales). Along the way we find some truly spectacular intermediate species, such as Pakicetus and Ambulocetus. Out of the 50,000+ transitions that should be IF such a transition took place only Am natans qualifies. Paki is no more than a dog-like animal with an "ear" similar to cetaceans. No one even knows whether or not nostrils can move from the tip of the snout to the top of the head. Also fossils cannot tell us anything about a mechanism. Nor can it distinguish between phenotypic plasicity and changes due to genetic mutations.Joseph
September 1, 2006
September
09
Sep
1
01
2006
02:19 PM
2
02
19
PM
PDT
Zachriel:Tiktaalik once waddled in tropical streams. The evidence exists. It doesn’t go away because it doesn’t fit your preconceptions. Tiktaalik has intermediate features between fish and tetrapods. First, you don't know that it 'waddled'. It's just as likely that it used its forelimbs to catch prey. And we know nothing at all about its hind limbs. Waddling is pure supposition; nothing more. Second, when you say that "Tiktaalik has intermediate features between fish and tetrapods", this is no more than you 'fitting things into your own preconceived ideas.' For it to be 'intermediate' means that it IS the forebear of all tetrapods. How in the world do we know that? It's, again, pure supposition. Third, in your original post, you satirically suggested that it was just 'luck' that the authors found this fossil in just the right strata--transitional between the Silurian and the Devonian. So your protestations that this in no way implies a kind of 'perfection' of the fossil record simply ring hollow. Again, if this is a transitional form, and 'intermediate', then where are the OTHER transitional forms? I can just hear the Darwinsit reply: "Oh, we just can't find them---but they really did exist! Honest! You just have to believe me." Sorry, I don'tPaV
September 1, 2006
September
09
Sep
1
01
2006
12:05 PM
12
12
05
PM
PDT
Evolutionism doesn’t have any empirical observations. And it certainly can’t be validated. How can one validate the premise that, for example, cetaceans “evolved” from land animals via some blind watchmaker-type process? It can’t be done. We do have a reasonably decent fossil sequence from fully terrestrial mammals to fully aquatic mammals (i.e. ancient and modern whales). Along the way we find some truly spectacular intermediate species, such as Pakicetus and Ambulocetus. Now, does this demonstrate that whales evolved? How one answers this question depends on what one thinks a good demonstration is. Astronomers think that they have a reasonably good picture of the inside of the sun and other stars, despite never having left the earth. Physicists think they have a reasonably good picture of the quantum world, despite never having seen a quark or muon with the naked eye. In both cases there is an "inference to the unobserved," as Hume put it. Hume himself, the good empiricist that he was, was skeptical about such inferences. There have been some fascinating attempts to get around this problem (Carnap, Popper). But these attempts do not work, as pointed out by Quine's criticisms of Carnap and Putnam's criticisms of Popper. One of the consequences of their work has been a revival of scientific realism: the view that science tells how the world is, and not merely how the world appears to us. But we accept realism about stars and quarks, why not accept realism about natural selection? In all cases, there is an "inference to the unobserved" which provides the most parsimonious explanation of the available evidence. The broader lesson here, and one that has big implications for the evolution/ID metacontroversy, is that there's no simple, unproblematic way of drawing the line between science and metaphysics. The Humean vision of drawing such a line, which thrived in the English-speaking world well into the twentieth-century, still finds its adherents, but they are getting fewer and farther between.Carlos
September 1, 2006
September
09
Sep
1
01
2006
08:53 AM
8
08
53
AM
PDT
Joseph: “Seeing that ALL computer simulations are intelligently designed I take the people who use them to determine biological reality would have no problem with living organisms also being intelligently designed.” Zachriel: There are regularities in nature, such as the inverse square law guiding gravitational attraction. These regularities can be modeled by computer without the assumption that the regularities are due to intelligent design. Inverse square- didn't Newton, a Creationist, give us that? Yes he did. But I digress what does your response have to do with my post? Joseph: “This may a bit much for you to understand but in order to model anything you first have to understand what it is you are modeling. And seeing at this point in time we do NOT even know what makes an organism what it is we canNOT model biological reality.” Zachriel We do not know *everything* about “what makes an organism what it is.” That is not to say that we do not know *anything* about “what makes an organism what it is.” OK Zachriel I am all ears. What do you think we know? Zachriel: Computer modeling can make predictions that can be successfully validated by empirical observation. That is the problkem then isn't it? Evolutionism doesn't have any empirical observations. And it certainly can't be validated. How can one validate the premise that, for example, cetaceans "evolved" from land animals via some blind watchmaker-type process? It can't be done. Zachriel: There are a variety of such models, and most of modern genetics requires the use of computers and statistics to crunch the data. Those models are so good humans are afraid of mosquitos and birds...Joseph
September 1, 2006
September
09
Sep
1
01
2006
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
Dave, The problem with Biblical miracles is that they are hearsay. No one sees them personally. And anyway, my point is about the universe as we find it and can study it. If God reveals himself in miracles, this does not address the problem of whether the existence of intelligence as a necessity can be inferred by the nonmiraculous, every-day, mundane world. Trll, Trill said: Isn’t this a self-contradiction? If the universe cannot exist without God, the obviously it does not look and act just like it might if there were no God. Indeed - that is exactly my point. I find theistic evolutionists are indulging in this self-contradiction. Trll said: Or to put it another way, do you believe that God is incapable of creating a universe that behaves according to His wishes without His direct interference at points subsequent to its inception? Shortly, yes. The very question is typical, but odd. I don't conceive of a separate God who is unconnected to this universe, although that is the common (mis)conception that gives rise to funny ideas like deism. The universe arises directly out of God, is part of God. People think the universe is like a house, and God can get in his car and drive away, maybe never come back. Again, I don't think in terms of a God who interferes "at points" in an otherwise independent little clockwork universe. But even if God could create a universe that behaves according to his wishes without interference, the whole entire shebang, from its very existence at all, would be entirely the result of this very intelligent Mind which caused it all and nothing, not the existence of matter in the first place nor the basic laws of nature should give us the impression that it is causeless and chaotic. I said: But why insist that the universe is cleverly constructed to forever hide from human intelligence that a Mind was required? Trill answered: Isn’t that similar to asking why God doesn’t make regular public appearances to clarify all of these questions regarding His existence and his role in the creation and maintenance of the universe? No. Completely different idea! Just back to what I said before - theistic evolutionists and materialists are comforted by the idea that if there is a God it is in some realm called "supernatural" and can be known only through a baseless faith and need not bother anyone with being a real part of our world. The idea of God making appearances is an anthropomorphism in my opinion. To expect that is to be barking up the entirely wrong tree.avocationist
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
07:35 PM
7
07
35
PM
PDT
Tom English: “I do see in your post not an attempt to ‘tell the truth,’ but instead an attempt to engender doubt disproportionate to the actual weakness of neo-Darwinian theory.” As Eric Anderson pointed out in comment #31, if anything, my suggestions understate the weaknesses and presumptions: “...your presentation of the evidence still seems watered down and way too accommodating of traditional orthodoxy and old ideas.” It should be questioned whether or not extrapolation based on changes in finch beaks is valid at all, much less valid as an explanation for the entire history of life. I conceded RM+NS as an explanation for antibiotic resistance in bacteria, but, as Eric points out, no one really knows if the mutations are indeed totally random and un-engineered. It is assumed that they are, but not demonstrated. Tom English: “Many judges would see this as a veiled attempt to pursue the agenda of ID.” It’s a not-at-all-veiled attempt to introduce some semblance of balance to a controversial subject that has profound implications for the worldviews of other people’s children, who are under the forced stewardship of the state (at least for those who cannot afford private school). Darwinian evolution as currently taught is a not-at-all-veiled attempt to avoid or obfuscate the growing difficulties with the theory. I don’t care what judges might think; I care about what is right and reasonable. My suggestions involve not primarily pointing out gaps, but making reasonable challenges to conclusions (many just speculations) drawn from the evidence. Your point #2 is made up out of whole cloth, based on my suggestions. You never did answer the three questions I posed.GilDodgen
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
12:36 PM
12
12
36
PM
PDT
1. Find a gap (argue that something is unlikely to have arisen through natural causes) Unguided, unplanned causes- Nature could not have arisen via natural causes as natural causes only exist in nature. Got it? 2. Find a pattern (and infer intelligent cause to fill the gap), When X is observed and the cause is known that cause is always an intelligent agency. So when we observe X and the cause is unknown we can safely, at this point in time, infer an intelligent cause. Seems reasonable.Joseph
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
11:46 AM
11
11
46
AM
PDT
Gil, We should reasonably expect all sciences to identify for the general public their most important controversies. High school students should learn something about the controversies in physics, chemistry, and biology. You think the Cambrian explosion is a big deal? Physicists can't explain why things fall. There are various fringe groups with barely-hidden agendas that would like to impugn science by trumping up controveries. The courts will never look just at the logic of what those groups are saying, but their histories as well. Something IDists fail to see, over and over, is that legal judgment is not, and never was, logic. I do see in your post not an attempt to "tell the truth," but instead an attempt to engender doubt disproportionate to the actual weakness of neo-Darwinian theory. If your proposal were evaluated in light of the history of the ID movement (and it would be in court), it would be easy to relate it to design inference. That is, the design inference procedure is 1. Find a gap (argue that something is unlikely to have arisen through natural causes) 2. Find a pattern (and infer intelligent cause to fill the gap), and your mission is to show schoolchildren the gaps. Many judges would see this as a veiled attempt to pursue the agenda of ID.Tom English
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
11:14 AM
11
11
14
AM
PDT
Tom English: ID asserts that intelligence is natural, and thus miracles can arise naturally. I would like to see the reference in which ID asserts that. However intelligence is natural in that it exists in nature, but that does NOT mean it was produced by nature. Tom English: Many believers have problems with such a statement. Ironically, by trying to steer clear of problems with supernaturalism in the courts, ID has run afoul of various theologies. ID steers clear of "supernaturalism" because it is irrelevant. It is irrelevant because all scenarios "turtle down" to something outside of nature for a first cause. It can't be avoided. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos: (1) the emergence of antibiotic resistance in bacteria is evidence of evolution, in part because bacteria don’t have well-defined species boundaries (whereas sexual organisms do). You may want to read the following: Is Bacterial Resistance to Antibiotics an Appropriate Example of Evolutionary Change? As for your abiogenesis scenarios they are only "plausible" to the ardent anti-IDist. There isn't any scientific findings that would render any of them "plausible" in the real world. What we do know is that only life begets life.Joseph
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
11:00 AM
11
11
00
AM
PDT
Re: 88. Please see my response at (6) above for my take on your challenges. Or, to re-present: (1) the emergence of antibiotic resistance in bacteria is evidence of evolution, in part because bacteria don't have well-defined species boundaries (whereas sexual organisms do). (2) punctuated equilibrium takes issue with the tempo and pace of gradualism, but it does not provide any reason to doubt that the mechanism of phyletic change is mutation and selection. (In any event, this is a red herring, since evolutionary theory has changed massively since Darwin's day.) (3) the Cambrian "explosion" is a puzzle, but not a mystery. For one thing, there are older animals than the Burgess Shale fauna. For another, we know that the genes which control development are older -- by about 50 million years -- than the Burgess Shale fauna itself. So it didn't come out of nowhere. Besides which, without the puzzles and unexplained phenomena, science wouldn't be any fun! (4) I wouldn't present embryological similarities as 'recapitulation' -- though later structures in ontogeny tend to be correlated with the emergence of later structures in phylogeny. (This includes cognitive structures -- human children under one year perform at about the same level as chimp infants of the same age.) Also, the diversity of reproductive physiology may explain why the earliest stages of development exhibit a great deal of diversity. So that's something of a red herring. (5) I'd responded to the point about abiogenesis here and elsewhere. Again, my take on it is that if you consider the various scenarios -- the RNA world, the metabolism-first model, the replication-first model -- and my personal favorite, clay crystals as living organisms (the Cairns-Smith proposal) -- all of them have some degree of plausibility, as well as weaknesses -- and that it may be a long time, if ever, before we can determine which of these just-so stories describes what actually happened.Carlos
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
10:15 AM
10
10
15
AM
PDT
DaveScot: "A witnessed miracle IS God revealing himself. Presumably science can investigate these miracles and make a determination of whether there is a natural cause or not." Dave's comment brings us to a reason for Jews, Muslims, and Christians to object to teaching of ID in the schools. Bill Dembski has defined intelligence as those causal factors that change one probability distribution into another. In the extreme, what this means is that intelligence can change the likelihood of an event from zero to one, making the impossible certain to happen. So what's wrong with saying that intelligence can work miracles? ID asserts that intelligence is natural, and thus miracles can arise naturally. Many believers have problems with such a statement. Ironically, by trying to steer clear of problems with supernaturalism in the courts, ID has run afoul of various theologies.Tom English
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
We don’t know what makes species what it is therefore we can’t possibly know what makes the differences. We do know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do NOT determine it. trrll: So if they influence every aspect of development, what part do you think that they do NOT determine? The type of organism, for starters. Also by influencing development we know that "malfunctioning"genes can cause a loss or displacement of body parts. However they do not determine the body part itself, eg. a mouse eye or a fly eye. trrll: How would you test that hypothesis experimentally? Take a gene (or genes) from a mouse and place it in a fly and observe that a fly-part(s) develops.
Only a very small fraction of all known genes, such as the developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation.- Michael John Denton in "Uncommon Descent chapter 9 pg 172
Just like workers on an assembly line- they surely can influence the product but they do not determine it. Got it?Joseph
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
09:34 AM
9
09
34
AM
PDT
Our universe looks and acts just like it might if there were no God. Yet such a no-God universe, if your belief is correct, has no possibility to even exist.
Isn't this a self-contradiction? If the universe cannot exist without God, the obviously it does not look and act just like it might if there were no God. Or to put it another way, do you believe that God is incapable of creating a universe that behaves according to His wishes without His direct interference at points subsequent to its inception?
But why insist that the universe is cleverly constructed to forever hide from human intelligence that a Mind was required?
Isn't that similar to asking why God doesn't make regular public appearances to clarify all of these questions regarding His existence and his role in the creation and maintenance of the universe?trrll
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
09:12 AM
9
09
12
AM
PDT
GilDodgen: "But also mention that these changes have been observed to be cyclic, and that some question the validity of extrapolating these minor changes to explain major biological innovation." I doubt if finches are a typical topic for children's biology courses, but the "some question" is quite problematic considering the broad scientific consensus on evolution. NATIONAL ACADEMY of SCIENCES: "The theory of evolution has become the central unifying concept of biology and is a critical component of many related scientific disciplines." http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/ GilDodgen: "Point out that bacteria develop antibiotic resistance through the evolutionary process of natural selection, but add that experiments with thousands of generations of bacteria subjected to harsh selection pressures have yet to produce a fundamentally new variety of bacteria." As the Theory of Evolution posits that "fundamental" changes can take millions of years, this would be confirmation of theory. In addition, highly adapted organisms rarely depart from niches where they are successful. In any case, children will soon find out from real life that microorganisms are more than capable of evolving and developing dangerous adaptations. GilDodgen: "[re; Gould and Eldredge] Offer the incompleteness of the fossil record as a possible explanation, but observe that the seamless gradation of living forms predicted by Darwinian theory has yet to be conclusively established." This seems to be a bit of a misinterpretation of punctuated equilibrium and modern scientific understanding of evolution. Punctuated equilibrium attempts to explain apparent discontinuities at the finest level of resolution in the fossil record and in no way disagrees with the basic idea of common descent through natural mechanisms. In addition, modern evolutionary theory posits that evolution is much more varied and episodic than previously believed. GilDodgen: "[re; The Cambrian Explosion] would seem to contradict the proposal that new body plans should originate in the leaves of the tree of life and not the trunk." Modern evolutionary theory posits that rapid radiation and adaptation is expected when filling new niches. Though there are many questions about that epoch, it is known that many of the phyla were already established before the Cambrian Explosion and that millions of years is still a lot of time. GilDodgen: "[re; Miller-Urey] mention that scientists now believe that conditions on the early earth were not those used in the experiment, and that no concrete explanation has been offered for how those amino acids could have formed biologically meaningful proteins by undirected chemical means." Miller-Urey have historical value in being the first experiment to show that complex organic compounds could spontaneously assemble. Certainly, your points are valid concerning an experiment that is decades old. No complete theory of abiogenesis has been demonstrated. GilDodgen: "Talk about various origin-of-life theories and the fact that many scientists are confident that an explanation will eventually be found, but mention that the current state of affairs in origin-of-life studies is many mutually contradictory hypotheses, and that the origin of information in DNA is a particularly difficult problem." Certainly, if abiogenesis is a topic of study, then this should be mentioned.Zachriel
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
09:05 AM
9
09
05
AM
PDT
We don’t know what makes species what it is therefore we can’t possibly know what makes the differences. We do know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do NOT determine it.
So if they influence every aspect of development, what part do you think that they do NOT determine? How would you test that hypothesis experimentally?trrll
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
09:02 AM
9
09
02
AM
PDT
Gil, The answer to your question is obvious. They don't have an honest answer to your reasonable suggestions. They know it is the kiss of death for neo Darwinism as the universal answer and their proselytizing machine. Since they never do and it is often a reason why threads often veer off the original objective. There should be a mechanism whereby extraneous comments like mine just above get published on a sub thread or maybe even banished. Keep pushing and you will continue to embarrass those who object.jerry
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT
Back to the topic of this thread before it dies. See my comment #61. I’d like answers to the questions I posed:
I would like to know why any of these challenges [the six proposals in my essay] would be inappropriate in the curriculum if included with the traditional presentation of evolutionary theory. Are any of the facts in my challenges wrong? Do they promote religion? Are they too esoteric for students to understand? If none of these, what is the real motivation for excluding them?
GilDodgen
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
08:24 AM
8
08
24
AM
PDT
Dave Scott, The Shroud of Turin is still a mystery as far as I understand. My wife and some friends were able to see it when it was on display in 1998 and I then read quite a bit about it. While the carbon dating said the shroud was made of material from the 1200's there is no explanation for the image. It is certainly not a painting and the process that produced an image of a crucified man remains to be explained. One of the problems is like in evolution that it is sometimes hard to sift out the good research from the wishful speculation. A lot of people want the Shroud to be the burial cloth of Christ so one has to be careful when looking at the findings. There is a very elaborate site run by one of the original researchers in the 1978 investigation of the Shroud from which the carbon dating came from. It is www.shroud.com. He is a Jew and the last time I read the site in detail he claims he is still a Jew in terms of religious belief but believe the shroud to be the burial cloth of Christ. He had said his original intention was to debunk the Shroud but obviously has changed his mind. Here is the opening paragraph from the website. "The Shroud of Turin is a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man. A man that millions believe to be Jesus of Nazareth. Is it really the cloth that wrapped his crucified body, or is it simply a medieval forgery, a hoax perpetrated by some clever artist? Modern science has completed hundreds of thousands of hours of detailed study and intense research on the Shroud. It is, in fact, the single most studied artifact in human history, and we know more about it today than we ever have before. And yet, the controversy still rages. This web site will keep you abreast of current research, provide you with accurate data from the previous research and let you interact with the researchers themselves. We believe that if you have access to the facts, you can make up your own mind about the Shroud." I certainly don't want to lead this thread to a discussion of the Shroud but those interested should go to the website or any others they find if they are interested. Like evolution is it interesting and an enigmajerry
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
08:11 AM
8
08
11
AM
PDT
Joseph: "Seeing that ALL computer simulations are intelligently designed I take the people who use them to determine biological reality would have no problem with living organisms also being intelligently designed." There are regularities in nature, such as the inverse square law guiding gravitational attraction. These regularities can be modeled by computer without the assumption that the regularities are due to intelligent design. Joseph: "This may a bit much for you to understand but in order to model anything you first have to understand what it is you are modeling. And seeing at this point in time we do NOT even know what makes an organism what it is we canNOT model biological reality." We do not know *everything* about "what makes an organism what it is." That is not to say that we do not know *anything* about "what makes an organism what it is." Computer modeling can make predictions that can be successfully validated by empirical observation. There are a variety of such models, and most of modern genetics requires the use of computers and statistics to crunch the data.Zachriel
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT
Jack Krebs:: it would be highly inaccurate to tell the students that “the materialistic alternative to ID is basically ’sheer-dumb-luck’…” It would be highly accurate. If not by design it has to be "sheer-dumb-luck"- The laws that govern nature if not intelligently designed had to have originated via "sheer-dumb-luck". The position of our planet in the universe had to have arose via "sheer-dumb-luck". Our Moon- "sheer-dumb-luck". But I could be wrong Jack, So please if not "sheer-dumb-luck", what? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Alleged computer simulations of living organisms are really computer simulations of the programmer’s idea of living organisms. And the math demonstrates that Simpson was corect when he stated that even the most beneficial mutation had a better chance of being lost than it does at becoming fixed.” Tom English: This is ironic. You recently demonstrated how little you care about math And you have demonstrated how little you care about reality. Seeing that ALL computer simulations are intelligently designed I take the people who use them to determine biological reality would have no problem with living organisms also being intelligently designed. Tom English: The computer simulations implement dynamical MODELS of systems. This may a bit much for you to understand but in order to model anything you first have to understand what it is you are modeling. And seeing at this point in time we do NOT even know what makes an organism what it is we canNOT model biological reality.Joseph
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT
But the mutations that occur in spite of proof reading and EC don’t appear to be the type of mutations required to drive common descent. trrll: As it happens, they are. Wishful thinking. trrll: Genomic studies have shown that all of the differences between species are due to DNA sequence changes that are of the same type as those produced by the mutations that occur in spite of proof reading and error correction. We don't know what makes species what it is therefore we can't possibly know what makes the differences. We do know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do NOT determine it.Joseph
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
06:58 AM
6
06
58
AM
PDT
DaveScot: "No. I see human/chimp difference as a gray area." According to your own definition, humans and apes are separated only by microevolutionary steps. Even adaptations such as wings are just modifications of existing tetrapod structures which are themselves just modification of fins. DaveScot: "Novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans are large milestones that evolution somehow obtained. Why bother with lesser steps when the big steps are easily delineated and in need of explanation?" Why deny what can be determined? In other words, if mammals or vertebrates can be shown to be related by common descent, then that is valuable knowledge about the history of life. From these relatively easy cases, we can then discuss the mechanisms of divergence, and possibly extrapolate to even more primitive lineages, such as vertebrates or even eukaroytes. PaV: "You’re basically arguing that this specimen is right where the geological record should find it, which then becomes an argument for the ‘perfection’ of the fossil record." Spending years camping out in the Arctic wastelands digging in rocks is hardly an indication of the perfection of the fossil record. And due to the vagaries of fossil preservation and exposure to the surface, Tiktaalik might never have been found. But it was. Tiktaalik once waddled in tropical streams. The evidence exists. It doesn't go away because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. Tiktaalik has intermediate features between fish and tetrapods. Tiktaalik limbs are just an "expanded array of distal endochondral bones and synovial joints". Microevolution. Joseph: "Also given what we do know pertaining to even the most beneficial mutation will be lost in a population as opposed to becoming fixed evolutionism just does NOT jive with the data." Not only can mutations be seen to become fixated, but mathematical models can predict when such mutations are likely to become fixated and compared successfully to empirical observations. It is clearly related to how beneficial or detrimental a mutation is. And even neutral mutations can and do become fixated within a statistical measure.Zachriel
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
06:29 AM
6
06
29
AM
PDT
avocationist The argument that the God of Abraham is indetectable to science is a sham if the bible and history of Christianity is believed by the proponent. The bible and both the oral and written histories of Christianity are chock full of witnessed miracles. A witnessed miracle IS God revealing himself. Presumably science can investigate these miracles and make a determination of whether there is a natural cause or not. The scientific testing done on the Shroud of Turin comes to mind. I'm sure there are more examples. Regardless of whether there is an investigation, if a miracle happens and it's witnessed it becomes rather obvious that God isn't hiding. So the bottom line is that the proponent of God-in-hiding theory must deny that God performs miracles and thus repudiate all the miracles described in the bible and all the miracles in Christian history. They won't. It's like asking them to deny God.DaveScot
August 31, 2006
August
08
Aug
31
31
2006
01:18 AM
1
01
18
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply