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An honest critique of intelligent design theory?

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Philosopher Nicholas Everitt of the University of East Anglia offers one, a friend says. He is hostile, but does not misrepresent it in “Review of Mary Midgley: Intelligent Design Theory and Other Ideological Problems.” He is as good as Bradley Monton at U Colorado, for representing it accurately without agreeing with it. (Most critics are principally interested in recasting it to be something it isn’t, that is easier to critique.) For example, he says,

Under the general label ‘creationism’, Midgley groups together two camps which need to be sharply distinguished. There are first the so-called young-earth creationists, who believe what they take to be a literal account in the Bible of the origin of the universe and of mankind. They believe that the universe is about 6000 years old, and that the species were separately created by God, as described in the book of Genesis. The second group are the proponents of so-called Intelligent Design, whose position carries no Biblical commitments at all, who are not committed to any particular age for the universe, nor to the separate creation of the species. Supporters of Intelligent Design in turn divide into two groups: those such as Michael Behe (1996) who believe that certain facts in biology support intelligent design specifically in biology, and those such as Stannard (1999) and Dembski (1998) who believe that the so-called ‘fine tuning’ argument in cosmology points to an intelligent designer.

Everitt must feel intellectually secure about what he himself thinks if he can afford to make correct distinctions.

Readers?

Note: One minor vice is the drip-drip-dripping use of “so-called,” as in “so-called young-earth creationists,” “so-called Intelligent Design,” and “so-called ‘fine tuning’” – that last item is even fenced in with scare quotes.

What, exactly, is so-called Nicholas Everitt’s point in doing this? The terminology he uses is conventional and widely accepted.

If he is afraid of Darwin’s followers, he ain’t alone. But finally, one must stop sacrificing so much clarity to appeasing them. – So-called ‘O’Leary for News’

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Comments
Joe: "BTW your position can’t even explain DNA" Joe, your position assumes that I have to explain DNA. I don't pretend to know how life originated. I think that it was without Devine interference but that is just a gut feeling, nothing based on science. Much like your belief in ID. The only thing that I have a good understanding of, based on good science, observation, prediction and experimentation, is that once life originated, it evolved without an outside guiding intelligence. I know that your faith directs you to think otherwise, but that doesn't make it true.Acartia_bogart
June 20, 2014
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Honesty is irrelevant. Our critics understand this, why don't we?Mung
June 20, 2014
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Acartia_bogart- Just because you don't understand what ID says doesn't mean I am equivocating. If ID says that multi-protein complexes are beyond the reach of materialistic processes then that is what must be demonstrated. The designer doesn't need to maintain anything. The design is such that it has the capability to respond to environmental cues. BTW your position can't even explain DNAJoe
June 19, 2014
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Joe, I am afraid that you are just equivocating. We are talking about an arrangement of DNA that codes for an enzyme that has absolutely no purpose in nature. Why would a designer maintain this capability when there is no foreseeable need for it? How does ID explain this?Acartia_bogart
June 19, 2014
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Acartia_bogart- It has to be a protein complex that utilizes many different proteins- the more the better for unguided evolution. As for nylonase- it is a stretch to think blind and undirected processes produced it. And the designer didn't have to know about nylon. The bacteria don't care what it is called. The basic elements and their bonds are well known to bacteria. All that was required was an enzyme to break the bonds so the bacteria can use the elements, like carbon.Joe
June 19, 2014
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Joe: "And if someone went into a lab and demonstrated that accumulations of genetic accidents could produce a bacterial flagellum in a population that didn’t have one, that too would be powerful evidence against ID." Does it have to be a flagellum? what about the production of a new enzyme that is not found in nature? would that suffice? There have been two incidences of bacterial strains developing an enzyme that can break down nylon. Unlike antibiotic resistance, there would be no natural reason for any bacteria to produce this enzyme as nylon is a completely man-made compound and not found anywhere naturally. Unless, of course, the designer foresaw the discovery of nylon by man and provided the genetic code to these bacteria in light of future needs. I think even you would consider this a stretch.Acartia_bogart
June 19, 2014
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REC: You really should be asking, what fact would cause any Popperian falsificationist to give up their falsificationism? But then you'd probably have to supply a fact that would cause you to give up your materialism, in all fairness. I guess it is up to you, but as some guy once said, you live by the sword, you die by the sword ...ScuzzaMan
June 18, 2014
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Stephen Meyer - The Biggest Failure of Critics (In Addressing 'Darwin's Doubt') - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljy1yfGdC5Ybornagain77
June 18, 2014
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REC on Darwinian evolution:
The evidence has been presented many times, and is publicly available.
Actually no such evidence exists. If it did you would just present it and be done.Joe
June 18, 2014
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REC:
What conceivable event would make you abandon the ID hypothesis?
Demonstrating that purely materialistic processes can produce a living organism from non-living matter. And if someone went into a lab and demonstrated that accumulations of genetic accidents could produce a bacterial flagellum in a population that didn't have one, that too would be powerful evidence against ID.Joe
June 18, 2014
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Some Concluding Food for Thought In my research on the demarcation problem, I have noticed philosophers of science attempting to balance (usually unconsciously) a consistent demarcation criteria against the the disruptive effects that it's application might have with regard to the academic status quo (and evolution in particular)… Few philosophers of science will even touch such matters, but (perhaps unintentionally) Imre Lakatos does offer us a peek at how one might go about balancing these schizophrenic demands (in Motterlini1999: 24) "Let us call the first school militant positivism; you will understand why later on. The problem of this school was to find certain demarcation criteria similar to those I have outlined, but these also had to satisfy certain boundary conditions, as a mathematician would say. I am referring to a definite set of people to which most scientists as well as Popper and Carnap would belong. These people think that there are goodies and baddies among scientific theories, and once you have defined a demarcation criterion. you should divide all your theories between the two groups. You would end up. for example, with a goodies list including Copernicus's (Theory1), Galileo's (T2), Kepler's (T3), Newton's (T4) ... and Einstein's (T5), along with but this is just my supposition Darwin's (T6). Let me just anticipate that nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific, but this is exactly what we are looking for." So basically, the demarcation problem is a fun game philosophers enjoy playing, but when they realize the implications regarding the theory of evolution, they quickly back off... http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/cosmos/philo/hardcore_pg.htm I stick by the quote RECbornagain77
June 18, 2014
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REC, it is amazing how disingenuous you are to the evidence. In this thread I have shown that Darwinism is hopelessly and severely bankrupt: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/an-honest-critique-of-intelligent-design-theory/#comment-504023 And yet you think that if you can just tie up matters on what Lakatos said and what he didn't say then that will somehow absolve you of your empirical responsibility to verify you claims for Darwinian evolution? Are you daft? This is not politics REC! This is science! either you have evidence that Darwinian processes can produce molecular machines, i.e. the bacterial flagellum, or you don't. And since you don't, despite Matzke's infamous literature bluff to the contrary, why do you pretend as if you are being reasonable in all this? Do you think that people cannot see through your shallow rhetoric? What is your payoff? ,,, Personally, I could care less what you believe, it is you that will have to account to God for your actions, but I'm just curious as to what motivates such intellectual dishonesty on your part.bornagain77
June 17, 2014
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The Scientific Method - Richard Feynman - video Quote: 'If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL6-x0modwY and in that beautifully simple and concise statement of what the 'key to science' is all about, Darwinian evolution is shown, by experiment, to be wrong: Here is the empirical falsification of neo-Darwinism: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/heres-that-algae-study-that-decouples-phylogeny-and-competition/#comment-504003bornagain77
June 17, 2014
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3) Do you realize your (pro-falsification, anti-evolution) error in quote-mining him? **What conceivable event would make you abandon the ID hypothesis?***REC
June 17, 2014
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REC, I stick by the Lakatos quotes, disagree with him on falsification, and agree with him on degenerating programs, his personal opinion on Darwinism could matter less since, as you point out, we know a lot more now. you then claim,,, "The evidence (substantiating Darwinism) has been presented many times, and is publicly available." Well then I'm sure you won't have any trouble whatsoever showing us the evidence since it is so readily available. Let's start with the Bacterial Flagellum: Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997 Calling Nick Matzke's literature bluff on molecular machines - DonaldM UD blogger - April 2013 Excerpt: So now, 10 years later in 2006 Matzke and Pallen come along with this review article. The interesting thing about this article is that, despite all the hand waving claims about all these dozens if not hundreds of peer reviewed research studies showing how evolution built a flagellum, Matzke and Pallen didn’t have a single such reference in their bibliography. Nor did they reference any such study in the article. Rather, the article went into great lengths to explain how a researcher might go about conducting a study to show how evolution could have produced the system. Well, if all those articles and studies were already there, why not just point them all out? In shorty, the entire article was a tacit admission that Behe had been right all along. Fast forward to now and Andre’s question directed to Matzke. We’re now some 17 years after Behe’s book came out where he made that famous claim. And, no surprise, there still is not a single peer reviewed research study that provides the Darwinian explanation for a bacterial flagellum (or any of the other irreducibly complex biological systems Behe mentioned in the book). We’re almost 7 years after the Matzke & Pallen article. So where are all these research studies? There’s been ample time for someone to do something in this regard. Matzke will not answer the question because there is no answer he can give…no peer reviewed research study he can reference, other than the usual literature bluffing he’s done in the past. https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/andre-asks-an-excellent-question-regarding-dna-as-a-part-of-an-in-cell-irreducibly-complex-communication-system/#comment-453291 More Irreducible Complexity Is Found in Flagellar Assembly - September 24, 2013 Concluding Statement: Eleven years is a lot of time to refute the claims about flagellar assembly made in Unlocking the Mystery of Life, if they were vulnerable to falsification. Instead, higher resolution studies confirm them. Not only that, research into the precision assembly of flagella is provoking more investigation of the assembly of other molecular machines. It's a measure of the robustness of a scientific theory when increasing data strengthen its tenets over time and motivate further research. Irreducible complexity lives! - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/more_irreducibl077051.htmlbornagain77
June 17, 2014
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Let's not stray off topic yet. A couple of reading comprehension questions: 1)What is Imre Lakatos opinion of falsificationism? 2) What is Imre Lakatos opinion on Darwin? 3) Do you realize your (pro-falsification, anti-evolution) error in quote-mining him. **What conceivable event would make you abandon the ID hypothesis?*** "you have no empirical evidence that Darwinian processes " The evidence has been presented many times, and is publicly available. You'll ignore it, like the (now conflicting mutually-exclusive) philosophies you cite approvingly and simultaneously. "Not to mention, to stake you eternal soul on it!" So only anti-evolutionists go to heaven?REC
June 17, 2014
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Here is the empirical falsification of neo-Darwinism: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/heres-that-algae-study-that-decouples-phylogeny-and-competition/#comment-504003bornagain77
June 17, 2014
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REC, in spite of your trying to play games,,, “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” (Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003)bornagain77
June 17, 2014
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So REC, since you have no empirical evidence that Darwinian processes can produce even one bacterial flagellum, (or any other comparable molecular machine) why do you personally want Darwinism to be true so badly? You simply don't have the evidence to make the grand claims you do. Not to mention, to stake you eternal soul on it!bornagain77
June 17, 2014
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Wow. You really can have it both ways. You cite an author against falsificationism 5 sentences prior to attacking me with falsificationism. So if you're now pro-falsification? as per your source: "It is always interesting to ask a Marxist, what conceivable event would make him abandon his Marxism." What conceivable event would make you abandon the ID hypothesis?REC
June 17, 2014
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“In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts” describes the present state of Darwinism to a T "When their expectations turn out to be false, evolutionists respond by adding more epicycles to their theory that the species arose spontaneously from chance events. But that doesn’t mean the science has confirmed evolution as Velasco suggests. True, evolutionists have remained steadfast in their certainty, but that says more about evolutionists than about the empirical science." ~ Cornelius Hunter That Darwinism is not scientific because it is not falsifiable would only be debated by a Darwinists who is bent on being dishonest towards the evidence! Who would have thought that it would be biologists that came up with the first Theory of Everything? Biological divergence? Evolution. Biological convergence? Evolution. Gradual variation? Evolution. Sudden variation? Evolution. Stasis? Evolution. Junk DNA? Evolution. No Junk DNA? Evolution. Tree of life? Evolution. No tree of life? Evolution. Common genes? Evolution. Orfan genes? evolution. Cell with little more than a jelly-like protoplasm? Evolution. Cell filled with countless, highly-specified nano-machines directed by a software code? Evolution. More hardy, more procreative organisms? Evolution. Less hardy, less procreative organisms? Evolution. - Evolution explains everything. - William J Murraybornagain77
June 17, 2014
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BA77: "Whereas there is no empirical finding that would provide a rigid falsification for Darwinism, ID does not suffer such an embarrassment of having such a lack." The author, Lakatos, you've been citing with approval throughout this thread rejects rigid falsificationism as a demarcation criteria! See what compelled me to jump in to try to correct this! From your source: "Is, then, Popper's falsifiability criterion the solution to the problem of demarcating science from pseudoscience? No." "Marxism, for a Popperian, is scientific if the Marxists are prepared to specify facts which , if observed, make them give up Marxism. If they refuse to do so, Marxism becomes a pseudoscience. It is always interesting to ask a Marxist, what conceivable event would make him abandon his Marxism. If he is committed to Marxism, he is bound to find it immoral to specify a state of affairs which can falsify it.] Thus a proposition may petrify into pseudo-scientific dogma or become genuine knowledge, depending on whether we are prepared to state observable conditions which would refute it." Do you ever read the sources you post?REC
June 17, 2014
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Whereas there is no empirical finding that would provide a rigid falsification for Darwinism, ID does not suffer such an embarrassment of having such a lack. Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997 The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 Excerpt of conclusion pg. 42: "To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662469/ Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www-qa.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel - August 2011 Summary: “The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness” states that inanimate physicodynamics is completely inadequate to generate, or even explain, the mathematical nature of physical interactions (the purely formal laws of physics and chemistry). The Law further states that physicodynamic factors cannot cause formal processes and procedures leading to sophisticated function. Chance and necessity alone cannot steer, program or optimize algorithmic/computational success to provide desired non-trivial utility. http://www.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness.htmlbornagain77
June 17, 2014
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"In his 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture 1[12] he also claimed that"... Yes, that is where we started. Do you read what you write? "In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts” Again, as he mentions Darwin in the same breath as Einstein and Copernicus, do you really think he thinks it is a degenerating research project? In this transcript, Darwin, evolution, biology are mentioned not once. "Thus, in a progressive research programme, theory leads to the discovery of hitherto unknown novel facts. In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts. Has, for instance, Marxism ever predicted a stunning novel fact successfully? Never! It has some famous unsuccessful predictions." So, I suppose we should evaluate which researchers are discovering new facts, and who comes up with post-hoc rationalizations for those facts.REC
June 17, 2014
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In his 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture 1[12] he also claimed that "nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific". Almost 20 years after Lakatos's 1973 challenge to the scientificity of Darwin, in her 1991 The Ant and the Peacock, LSE lecturer and ex-colleague of Lakatos, Helena Cronin, attempted to establish that Darwinian theory was empirically scientific in respect of at least being supported by evidence of likeness in the diversity of life forms in the world, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos#Darwin.27s_theorybornagain77
June 17, 2014
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Really? All designs follow this pattern?
All intelligent designs over time, yes. And the more complex the designs, the more they have to follow this pattern. The reason is that, within a category, we observe that new designs are always modifications of or additions to existing designs. This is what makes this hypothesis plausible. Having said, your question is irrelevant because it is not necessary for all designs to follow this pattern in order for the design hypothesis to be a testable and thus a scientific hypothesis. I could just as easily ask, do all kinds of natural evolution follow this pattern? The hypothesis is not that aren't other types of evolution or design but that we can choose and pick a hypothesis to test. It's a subtle nuance but an important one.Mapou
June 17, 2014
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REC, so you are not interested in providing evidence that Darwinism is true, and are only interested in playing stupid shell games? Where is your direct empirical evidence man? NOTHING ELSE MATTERS! Perhaps this quote from Lakatos is more to your liking: Science and Pseudoscience (transcript) - "In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts" - Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, , quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture http://www2.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/about/lakatos/scienceandpseudosciencetranscript.aspx Here's the audio: Science and Pseudoscience – Lakatos – audio lecture http://richmedia.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/2002_LakatosScienceAndPseudoscience128.mp3 I stick by the quote!bornagain77
June 17, 2014
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"Mapou June 17, 2014 at 8:09 pm Both genomics and the fossil record support a mostly nested hierarchy of living organisms with lots of horizontal gene transfers sprinkled in. This is exactly what one would expect from intelligent design over a long period of time." Really? All designs follow this pattern?REC
June 17, 2014
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"REC, I did not attribute any quote to Coyne." "Even Jerry Coyne himself, the self-appointed Grand Inquisitor of Darwinian evolution, admits that Darwinian evolution lacks the rigor of a proper physical science:" BA77's words, not the author's follow. "Theobald’s paper is a piece of unsubstantiated propaganda." Listen, BA77. I came in to ask what the heck you were doing quoting Lakatos in the manner you had. To anyone who has actually read him, it is a clear misuse, as I demonstrated. Then I find, in the next statement, "says Jerry Conye: but BA77 writes" kinda misattribution. And without analysis, you refer to as pretty common statistical techniques as "unsubstantiated propaganda." Sooo--I'm out. What's the point?REC
June 17, 2014
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Joe:
That genomes exist is evidence for ID.
I like that.Mapou
June 17, 2014
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