Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Exchange With FG, Part 2

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I come back to FG, because I think he is seriously trying to engage with ID, and I am very pleased to report that he is making significant progress.

In my post “Who Designed the Designer Argument Demolished in Three Easy Steps”  I demonstrated that the infinite regress argument has no real force by giving what FG called a “concrete example” of how a design inference can be valid in the complete absence of any knowledge of who the designer was or where he/she came from.

FG writes. “When applied to a single concrete example like the one you gave, your inference could be valid . . .”

Wonderful!

FG then slips when he says: “The infinite regress problem is real and does defeat ID the moment your argument is invoked to explain first life.”

Not so. ID posits the following: CSI and IC have never been directly observed to have arisen though chance or mechanical necessity or a combination of the two. Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.”

How does this apply to first life? (By “first life” I presume FG means “first life on earth.”) Well, we cannot directly examine first life to determine whether it exhibited CSI and IC. We can only observe existing life, and when we do we find that even the most simple extant life forms are staggeringly complex. From this observation we infer that the first life on earth also exhibited CSI and IC. (To be sure, some would attempt to deny that first life is complex, but given the unanimous verdict to the contrary of all of our observations simple logic suggests that the burden is on those who make such a suggestion to demonstrate its plausibility.)

We cannot know for certain whether first life exhibited CSI and IC. ID merely says that if it did, the best explanation for the existence of the CSI and IC in first life is best explained by “act of intelligent agent.”

This is where FG goes off the rails. He/she asks “But who designed first life? By definition first life could not have been designed by a living being.” The answer is, as I have said many times before, ID does not examine the question “What is the source of all design?” ID examines the question “Is this particular thing designed?” And it says of the particular thing “first life on earth” that if it exhibited CSI and IC the best explanation for the existence of that CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.” A physicist (when he is doing physics) does not ask, “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Similarly, an ID proponent (when he is doing science) does not ask, “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?”

Why is this? Because questions like “Why is there something instead of nothing?” and “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” are simply not subject to scientific investigation. This does not mean that grand metaphysical or philosophical questions like these are uninteresting. They are very interesting (even vitally important). Nevertheless, the answer to these questions cannot be investigated by scientific means.

Wittgenstein famously wrote: “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” As a scientist a physicist cannot speak to the question “Why is there something instead of nothing?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question. As a scientist an ID proponent cannot speak to the question “What is the ultimate source of all CSI and IC?” Therefore, he must remain silent on that question.

Therefore, to FG I say, many ID proponents have a view of the source of all CSI and IC. But those views are of the “metaphysical, philosophical and religious” sort. They are not scientific views and for that reason are not subject to scientific investigation. However, with respect to any particular, as you say, “concrete example” of CSI and IC, ID proponents argue that the best explanation for its existence is “act of intelligent agent.”

Comments
fG "Personally I don’t like metaphsical discussions much so this is where I bow out." Of course you don't... how convenient... but this isn't primarily a metaphysical discussion although there are metaphysical overtones. It's an epistemological discussion and I'd think that qualifies for this kind of thread. Your arguments are bankrupt and I think you know it. Adios...tgpeeler
August 13, 2011
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F/N: FG's latest contention is taken up further here based on the above.kairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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FG: RE: In parallel conversations, Barry and I have discovered that we are in agreement that his particular ID argument should only be used on things we can directly observe. It should not be used to answer questions about first life, since we can’t directly observe and investigate this first life. You are here distorting what Barry has repeatedly said, probably inadvertently. (But also, you should have cited specifically where Barry said what you claim, and what was said. In addition, there is a significant issue that you have yet to address, dealing with a half-burned match and what it is telling you about the roots of reality as we experience it . . . it is significant that after a full week, you have still managed to avoid doing so simple an observational exercise, much less discussing it. ) From what we have followed, Barry has pointed out, again and again -- it is in the OP to this thread, that the focus of the design inference is on the causal process of the particular object of study, on signs it exhibits. Let's roll the tape from the OP:
ID posits the following: CSI and IC have never been directly observed to have arisen though chance or mechanical necessity or a combination of the two. Conversely, CSI and IC are routinely observed to have been produced by intelligent agents. Moreover, intelligent agents leave behind indicia of their acts that can be objectively discerned. Therefore, using abductive reasoning, the best explanation for CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.” How does this apply to first life? (By “first life” I presume FG means “first life on earth.”) Well, we cannot directly examine first life to determine whether it exhibited CSI and IC. We can only observe existing life, and when we do we find that even the most simple extant life forms are staggeringly complex. From this observation we infer that the first life on earth also exhibited CSI and IC. (To be sure, some would attempt to deny that first life is complex, but given the unanimous verdict to the contrary of all of our observations simple logic suggests that the burden is on those who make such a suggestion to demonstrate its plausibility.) We cannot know for certain whether first life exhibited CSI and IC. ID merely says that if it did, the best explanation for the existence of the CSI and IC in first life is best explained by “act of intelligent agent.” This is where FG goes off the rails. He/she asks “But who designed first life? By definition first life could not have been designed by a living being.” The answer is, as I have said many times before, ID does not examine the question “What is the source of all design?” ID examines the question “Is this particular thing designed?” And it says of the particular thing “first life on earth” that if it exhibited CSI and IC the best explanation for the existence of that CSI and IC is “act of intelligent agent.”
a: He is careful to note that we do not directly observe the first biological life on this planet. b: We reasonably infer it and its characteristics from its observed "simplest" unicellular descendants, and from traces that we can observe, commonly dated 3.5 - 3.8 BYA, or about 200 mn years after the end of the suggested late bombardment era. c: This is not unusual for origins science, to infer a deep past state of affairs on observations in the present. If you object to this, then you should be objecting to the whole body of scientific investigations of the deep and unobserved past, which plainly you do not. d: In short, your objection is selectively hyperskeptical. e: Going on, Barry has correctly highlighted that the design inference is on signs in a particular object [especially CSI, IC] and point to design of that object. In this case, to design of the model organisms of life, reflected in what has been reproduced over the years to bring descendants of the first living cell based organisms to today. f: Debate talking points on who designed the designer, or was the designer of the first cell based organism alive, etc are therefore tangential. g: In addition, claims of logical contradiction, fall to the ground as there is a logically possible state of affairs under which first cell based life on earth traces to a necessary, powerful, creative being who is architect of the cosmos. Such a being would reasonably be described as living, and would have no beginning, by the force of being a necessary being. h: At no point over the past week have you seriously engaged this issue, not even by doing so simple an exercise as to light and half-burn a match then tilt its head up so the flame goes out, then reflect on what that is telling us about contingent beings and the possibility of necessary beings. i: In that context, the following does not appear in a favourable light:
This thread has wandered pretty far into the metaphysical territory and I am just not interested in going there. My objection was not metaphysical, it was technical and it has been answered to my satisfaction. I don’t have much beef with ID as a metaphysical concept. Personally I don’t like metaphsical discussions much so this is where I bow out.
j: Origins science issues inherently are about the deep and unobserved, unrecorded past. therefore, issues of worldview assumptions and alternatives are inevitable. Indeed, that is precisely the concern that has led to the highlighting of Lewontin's notorious 1997 NYRB remarks:
. . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [Onlookers if you think the immediately following JUSTIFIES the just clipped, cf the notes here]
k: We see here where worldview level question begging is being injected into the very definition and process of science as a censoring a priori [and the context of the just linked shows that this is a major trend pushed by the likes of the US NAS and NSTA], robbing it of its capacity to freely seek the empirically warranted truth about the deep past of origins. l: In that context, a refusal to examine the relevant issues, is tantamount to saying that you want to allow that inserted question begging to stand, unchallenged. m: And whether or not we like worldview level discussions has nothing to do with their materiality to the issues at stake. If they are material, we had better know enough to draw our own reasonably informed conclusions. n: In addition, the real issues on the nature of cause are not particularly metaphysical, they are logical and epistemological. If we are concerned to think of causes and effects coherently, we need to be aware of the distinction between necessary and sufficient causal factors. o: Beyond that, this then leads to the logical distinction between contingent beings and necessary ones. A distinction that is as familiar as what happens when we tilt a half-burned match upright so the head is uppermost and the flame goes out. p: That is, we see how fuel is a necessary factor for a fire, and we see how this is linked to the fact that a fire begins and may go out under certain circumstances. From this, we see (and may inductively test) the general principle: that which begins and/or may cease from existing, has external, necessary causal factors. q: Such tests will abundantly vindicate its general correctness. r: In that context, we see that biological life has a beginning and an external cause -- both int eh individual case and in the first instance. s: Since it is reasonable that that first life had in it a metabolic system [complete with the ATP synthase mini factory that manufactures the key energy battery molecule of life], and a von Neumann digital code based self-replication facility, such is credibly replete with functionally specific, complex organisation and information. t: For which the only empirically credible cause is DESIGN AS PROCESS, TRACING TO INTELLIGENT AGENTS. (As BA pointed out in the OP.) u: Of course, from the days of TMLO, the first technical ID book in 1984, it has been highlighted that design inference is not capable of identifying the agent or agents involved, nor whether such would be within or beyond the observed cosmos. v: But there is another side to ID, the cosmological, whereby the fine tuning of the cosmos we observe that facilitates C-chemistry, intelligent life, highlights FSCO/I, setting the cosmos to a finely balanced local operating point. w: This is multiplied by the evidence that points to the cosmos as having a beginning at a finite distance in the past, usually estimated as 13.7 BYA. x: That is, the observed cosmos is contingent and dependent on an external cause. In turn, that raises the implication that the contingent cosmos -- even through a multiverse speculative model -- traces to an underlying necessary being. One that on the fine tuning is purposeful, powerful, knowledgeable, skilled, creative and intelligent. y: Such a being, on very reasonable and longstanding grounds, can be legitimately viewed as living. z: That is, biological life -- and FYI, FG, this was a metaphysically tinged claim or argument -- does not necessarily lead to the dilemma of infinite regress or else rooting biological lifer in non-living intelligence. Once we see the logic that points to a necessary, living and intelligent being behind the cosmos, we have very reasonable grounds tor terminating the infinite regress, and for inferring to a living necessary being as architect of the cosmos. _______ So, it is evident that there is a very reasonable and satisfactory answer to the attempted dilemma posed a week ago. Just, unfortunately, those who posed the objections -- on the record of the past week -- do not seem to want to seriously discuss it. So, on fair comment, with apologies to Kant: they seem content to rest in their a priori materialistic [or fellow traveller] metaphysical, epistemological and logical slumbers. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 13, 2011
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avocationist, tgpeeler e.a. I am going to draw a line under this partiucular discussion. In parallel conversations, Barry and I have discovered that we are in agreement that his particular ID argument should only be used on things we can directly observe. It should not be used to answer questions about first life, since we can't directly observe and investigate this first life. Limiting the use of his argument in this way takes away my specific objection that triggered this thread. Of course there are many who are still interested in pursuing the argument beyond the agreed limits. No problem, but let's be clear: as Barry points out in the Demands of Charity thread, and I agree with him: "Please understand the distinction between metaphysical arguments and scientific arguments on this blog. ID proponents make both kinds of arguments, but when they are making the former they are NOT making ID arguments. " This thread has wandered pretty far into the metaphysical territory and I am just not interested in going there. My objection was not metaphysical, it was technical and it has been answered to my satisfaction. I don't have much beef with ID as a metaphysical concept. Personally I don't like metaphsical discussions much so this is where I bow out. Have fun, fGfaded_Glory
August 13, 2011
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“The problem remains, though, that we need to offer a solution to the paradox that first life cannot be created by something that is itself alive." Let me correct that. First biological life cannot have been created by prior biological life."avocationist
August 12, 2011
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'First life' by implication, re 'Intelligent agent' who created/caused all things to come into 'being' cannot apply, as 'First' by definition means a beginning, and such absolute Omnipotence is necessarily sufficient from eternity to eternity, has NO* beginning, has NO* end, just IS* This fact, scientifically, is overwhelmingly confirmed by millions of fossils, who repeatedly speak, in their eloquent silence, loudly, that we were ALL* created, that's why we ALL* appear fully formed, no transitional fossils will ever be found, as we did not 'evolve' we were created.Zoe
August 12, 2011
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fG @ 98 "The problem remains, though, that we need to offer a solution to the paradox that first life cannot be created by something that is itself alive. That is not a matter for negotiation, it is a basic consequence of the law of non-contradiction." One of us has a serious, fatal, misunderstanding of the law of non-contradiction. I could not be more sure that it is not me. But, in the spirit of knowing I will be happy to read your explanation of the statement above that I quoted. If you've already made a post on that, please direct me to it. Thanks. "I am happy with that. How about you?" Not even close.tgpeeler
August 12, 2011
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PS: Those word games have long since been cogently answered, but ignored on a lame excuse. When I see the reaction to how some Scholastics refused to look through Galileo's telescope, I then reflect on how for a week, several objectors have refused to get a box of matches and dot he half-burned match exercise. At least the Scholastics had the excuse that the optics of those early telescopes were rather problematic. (That's why Newton gave up and invented the reflector.)kairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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Avo: It's not just a matter of English, there is an underlying serious issue. Here is Plato on the matter, in The Laws bk X: ____________ >> Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.] >> _____________ We are swimming in fairly deep waters here. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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FG- "If your postulated unembodied mind is living, the biological life it creates isn’t first life, is it now?" Yes, because when we say first life, we mean biological life which is the entire point of Darwinism and ID. " So the paradox then doesn’t kick in when we ask what created first biological life, but rather it kicks in when we ask what created the living unembodied mind, assuming that *that* is now first life." It is not first biological life and I am not going to entertain who created the Creator! "Which is why Barry and I now agree not to use it on first life. How about you?" I'll agree to no such thing. We can specify first biological life. "If you call it alive, how do you apply Barry’s argument to it without it blowing up?" The design inference? Barry never intended his argument to apply to a divine being. You are saying that a divine being cannot be uncaused and also alive. So we are back to definitions. "I guess you could postulate a non-living intelligent divine being as the cause of first life, and prevent the argument from blowing up that way, but if you do that I fail to see what the word ‘divine’ adds to the explanation." It is only for lack of a better term that we use the same word, 'living' to apply to both God and biological life. Perhaps other languages may be richer. But I will not agree that the divine mind is nonliving. It might be a nondivine mind that creates life, but it would need to be nonembodied, I would think. "All fun and games, but by far the easier solution is to not apply the argument to first life. Like qualifying the barber statement by making an explicit exception for the barber himself, and thereby avoiding the paradox. It does mean, though, that ID (in the form of Barry’s argument) is agnostic about the origins of first life (I just love to point that out every time lol)." And now I see what you are after! You want ID to concede that it cannot address the arrival of life on this planet. You will not accomplish anything of lasting value with word games, although it may be so that we don't have enough real world data to definitively state that first life was incapable of arising through your secret intelligent forces. But so far, things are pointing toward ID.avocationist
August 12, 2011
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PS: On observation, cell-based biological life, the kind we observe embeds a metabolic system and a complex, digital code based self replication facility. Yes, digital code. That strongly points to design. On the meaning of design, the first cell based life was a product of intent, knowledge and skill, i.e. intelligence. Now, design theory qua design theory can only infer to design as causal process on evidence -- as just outlined, as you have been told over and over. That tweredun is enough to drive a scientific revolution, now in progress. Whodunit, we do not know from the signs of design in the currently observed living cell and its reasonably inferred ancestors. Pointing beyond, these C-chemistry cell based life forms are dependent on a credibly fine tuned cosmos, which in turn points to a root cause in a necessary, intelligent and creative, purposeful being. Such a being does not require a creator, for reasons already explained over and over again. However, given the implications of purpose intelligence etc such a being would reasonably be called living. Nor is this a particularly novel inference, it was on record from the days of Plato in The Laws Bk X, as was also repeatedly pointed out to you over the past week but studiously ignored.kairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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FG: Pardon, but it is now clear that you are in an unnecessary web of self defeating word games:
If your postulated unembodied mind is living, the biological life it creates isn’t first life, is it now?
Really, now, the issue of what you mean by "first life" vs what BA has been discussing has been on the table for days. In addition, it is a week now since the answer to this one was given:
the paradox then doesn’t kick in when we ask what created first biological life, but rather it kicks in when we ask what created the living unembodied mind, assuming that *that* is now first life.
by refusing to address the issue of necessary vs sufficient cause, and that of contingent vs necessary being, you have made up a false conundrum. If you simply scroll up there you will find cogent responses, and there is a whole post that responds here. Here is a clue, to help avoid caricatures of the issue: it is that which begins to exist or may cease from existing that has a cause. (For such things have external necessary causal factors. Once something has no external necessary causal factor it will either be impossible and non-existent, or if it is possible it will exist now and will have always existed and will always exist.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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Avo: If there was a true nothing there would be nothing to be discussed and no-one to discuss it. Gkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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avocationist: "Well, let us say we are discussing a divine entity. Divine meaning uncaused and always existing. Would you call that nonliving? Because it does fail the critter test! Something that is unborn, cannot die, and yet is conscious – wouldn’t that be even MORE alive than biological life forms?" ------------- If you call it alive, how do you apply Barry's argument to it without it blowing up? The argument I mean, not the divine entity, lol. I guess you could postulate a non-living intelligent divine being as the cause of first life, and prevent the argument from blowing up that way, but if you do that I fail to see what the word 'divine' adds to the explanation. All fun and games, but by far the easier solution is to not apply the argument to first life. Like qualifying the barber statement by making an explicit exception for the barber himself, and thereby avoiding the paradox. It does mean, though, that ID (in the form of Barry's argument) is agnostic about the origins of first life (I just love to point that out every time lol). fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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avocationist: "I agreed that if first life is complex it cannot have been created by a similar biological life form. So the question is, do you refuse to consider a nonembodied mind, or do you consider such a mind to be nonliving, and when you say a nonliving intelligence, are we back to natural selection and the assertion that it can achieve CSI?" ------------------- If your postulated unembodied mind is living, the biological life it creates isn't first life, is it now? So the paradox then doesn't kick in when we ask what created first biological life, but rather it kicks in when we ask what created the living unembodied mind, assuming that *that* is now first life. The paradox doesn't go away and it still blows up Barry's argument. I am not asserting here that natural selection can create CSI, I am demonstrating that Barry's argument goes up in a logical puff of smoke when applied to first life, whichever way you want to slice and dice that. Purely by analysis of the logic. There just can't be life before first life, and unless you allow for non-living intelligence, the argument goes pop. Which is why Barry and I now agree not to use it on first life. How about you? fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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KF - Well, if you say necessary being, that that ends it. Necessary is necessary. I think I misunderstood you to say that something that can be, will be. As to 2 + 3 being five in all possible worlds, do you agree that it is not true if there were only nothingness, i.e., that even abstract, nonmaterial items in the realm of ideas depend upon matter for their existence?avocationist
August 12, 2011
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PPS: Now think about a serious candidate NB that tuns out to be impossible. It is not actual now, never was and never will be.kairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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PS: Just think: such a serious candidate being must now be actual, and it cannot have had a beginning by being switched on, nor can it be turned off to cease from being. So, it always was and always will be. [Think about the truth expressed in 2 + 3 = 5: now true, had no beginning, will have no end, cannot be turned on or off.] Does that help?kairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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Avo: A serious candidate necessary being -- no external necessary causal factors, recall [cannot be turned on or off] -- that is not IMPOSSIBLE will be actual. The reasons were explained in steps above. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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FG- Well, let us say we are discussing a divine entity. Divine meaning uncaused and always existing. Would you call that nonliving? Because it does fail the critter test! Something that is unborn, cannot die, and yet is conscious - wouldn't that be even MORE alive than biological life forms?avocationist
August 12, 2011
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KF- I do not need to do the match experiment as I did it mentally years ago. I agree it leads to a necessary being, but I did not see how you came to the conclusion that a being who is not logically impossible will be actual. Is that what you said?avocationist
August 12, 2011
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FG- Can you please remind me of which posts these are? Alas, no. I'm sure one at least was on an older thread. But one result was in asking you for a definition of life. Which I think you haven't given, because when you say: - an alternative solution is not to (silently) rule out the possibility of non-living intelligence. First life could theoretically be the product of non living processes that could be classified as intelligent on the strenth of what they manage to achieve. I realize that this opens the huge can of worms of what intelligence is, what its prerequisites are, and so on – but why would ID shy away from such discussions if Intelligence is such a central part of its tenet?" I would like to know what you might mean. I agreed that if first life is complex it cannot have been created by a similar biological life form. So the question is, do you refuse to consider a nonembodied mind, or do you consider such a mind to be nonliving, and when you say a nonliving intelligence, are we back to natural selection and the assertion that it can achieve CSI?avocationist
August 12, 2011
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RH7: I observe, again, that you refuse to do the match exercise. Kindly note, I distinguish, on excellent grounds [and in very good company), between a necessary causal factor and a sufficient cluster of causal factors. Let's keep the matter simple: unless the material causal factor of one or more Radium atoms is present, there will be no -- zip, zilch -- possibility of a Radium atom decaying. This is a trivial case. Similarly, unless there is a photon of sufficient energy there will be no photo emission. Indeed it is explaining this that largely won Einstein his Nobel Prize. What is happening is that cause is being confused with sufficient causal factors, which are unknown for most quantum phenomena. And, pardon the directness: I am precisely speaking of the logical OPPOSITE of determinism, classical or otherwise. For instance, certain influences must be there for a person to act in a certain way. But that precisely only says these are necessary causal factors, not sufficient ones. A person influenced by genetics, environment and so forth, may still have a real choice. Maybe, you will listen to Wiki as a 101, since you refuse to attempt even the basic exercise of the half-burned match:
Causes are often distinguished into two types: Necessary and sufficient.[7] A third type of causation, which requires neither necessity nor sufficiency in and of itself, but which contributes to the effect, is called a "contributory cause."[8] Necessary causes: If x is a necessary cause of y, then the presence of y necessarily implies the presence of x. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur. Sufficient causes: If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x. Contributory causes: A cause may be classified as a "contributory cause," if the presumed cause precedes the effect, and altering the cause alters the effect. It does not require that all those subjects which possess the contributory cause experience the effect. It does not require that all those subjects which are free of the contributory cause be free of the effect. In other words, a contributory cause may be neither necessary nor sufficient but it must be contributory . . .
Going back to quantum phenomena, we know of necessary constraints, that may block the occurrence of an event. We may know of circumstances that are sufficient for us to observe a population, statistical pattern of behaviour, e.g. RA decay where we know what the population will do but not the individual atom. But that is not determinism, not by a long shot. Please read me as I am not as the caricature you have imagined me to be. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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tgpeeler, Ok, so you don't think that this particular suggestion to resolve the barber's paradox in Barry's argument is valid. No problem, it was just a suggestion. I think there may be other people who do not share your particular concerns about the orign of life. And so the debate goes on. The problem remains, though, that we need to offer a solution to the paradox that first life cannot be created by something that is itself alive. That is not a matter for negotiation, it is a basic consequence of the law of non-contradiction. In the meantime Bary has put up a new post where he offers the solution that we should only use his argument on things we can actually investigate. I believe we agree that first life is not open to such investigation, and therefore we should stop short of using his argument on the question of the origin of first life. I am happy with that. How about you? fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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kairosfocus 90, Your understanding of causality (classical determinism) does not comport with Quantum theory and the experiments and observations to date. Please take this piece of advice as honest and sincere: you need to learn the difference between logical suppositions and logical proofs.rhampton7
August 12, 2011
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fG, I say again, you can't have life without information. How is this not clear? If you can't have life without information then you can't have a conversation about the origin of life without explaining the origin of information. Am I missing something? “To start with, a brief introduction to modern evolution theory is given (chapter 1). A central and fundamental concept of this theory is that of “biological information,” since the material order and the purposiveness characteristic of living systems are governed completely by information, which in turn has its foundations at the level of biological macromolecules (chapter 2). The question of the origin of life is thus equivalent to the question of the origin of biological information.” Information and the Origin of Life, from the introduction."tgpeeler
August 12, 2011
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Why are you talking about information, tgpeeler? How does that relate to my post? fGfaded_Glory
August 12, 2011
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fg @ 83 "Well, no. An alternative solution is that first life was caused by something that was not itself alive. All you have to allow for is the possibility that a non-living entity or process could be classified as intelligent. On what grounds do you rule that out?" I rule it out on these grounds. Information and life are inextricable. You can't have life without information (DNA/RNA) and you can't have information without life. Information requires, requires, the laws of rational thought (identity, non-contradiction, excluded middle, and causality), the symbols and rules of a "local" language (here English), free will, and purpose. Describe to me one non-living (i.e. governed by the laws of physics) entity or process that can reason, and freely and purposefully manipulate symbols in accordance with the rules of reason and the local language to generate information. Then we can talk. Until then, you are engaging in the idlest sort of speculation.tgpeeler
August 12, 2011
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F/N: And, FG, Barry's argument, on his limited focus, is perfectly valid. Whatever the state of the cause of this entity X with signs S of design, we are entitled to infer from signs to design as cause of X. We may then follow up the ladder to Y etc. And, in the end, we find ourselves looking at the issue of the contingent vs the necessary vs the impossible as beings. For which the half-burned match case study is a good gateway, one you seem astonishingly averse to going through.kairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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TGP: Some serious points GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2011
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