Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Word About Our Moderation Policy

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Some commenters have raised questions regarding the propriety of recent posts and UD’s moderation policy. UD’s moderation policy is fairly simple: As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not opening this site up to nasty juvenile name-calling fests like one see so often at Panda’s Thumb.  But if you keep your comments restricted to ideas and not attacking people, you should have no problems passing muster here.

What about the “God-bashing” and the defenses of God that have appeared in these pages? God can take care of Himself. We at UD feel no need to protect Him from defamation. Bash away. Those who are offended by (or disagree with) the bashing are welcome to post such defenses as they deem appropriate. There are limits, however. This site is not intended to be a forum for extensive religious debates. Religious issues inevitably come up from time to time and people should feel free to discuss them from both sides when they do. But the moderators will exercise their judgment and gavel discussions that stray too far a field from the purpose of this site for too long.

I personally find the God-bashing disturbing. So why do I allow it? As one of my colleagues has aptly said, the wiser course, when someone attacks God is to let those UD commenters who are theists respond to the charges. Our readers will then be in a position to see: (1) that UD, unlike the Darwinists, doesn’t ban or censor ideas; and (2) that theism in general and Christianity in particular is quite capable of defending itself against lies, distortions, illogical arguments, and misunderstandings. Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail.

Certainly there is risk to this approach. Some will reject truth and embrace error. But the consequences of pursuing the alternative course – ignoring or even running from the hard questions – would be far worse.

Finally, some have asked whether we should even discuss “peripheral issues” at UD, such as Darwin’s racism or the implications of ID for the theodicy. This site is devoted not only to scientific theories of origins, but also to the metaphysical and moral implications of those theories. Plainly BOTH Darwinism and ID have implications beyond the science. Certainly Darwinsts like “intellectually fulfilled” atheist Richard Dawkins understand the metaphysical implications of Darwinism and talk about those implications ad nauseum. What hypocritical balderdash for anyone to suggest a double standard prohibiting those of us with a different point of view from doing the exact same thing from our perspective – and we will continue to do so.

Comments
Bill seems to have disappeared. Was he put on moderation or did he run away?
I've been placed on moderation. Although I am posting on a thread introducing UD's new, "open" moderation policy, I am mindful that it is quite likely that the moderator(s) may be the only persons likely to read this comment. Anyone reading this thread will see that I have scrupulously refrained from ad hominem, defamatory or profane remarks. This despite a steady drizzle of low key (and generally irrational) insults from UD participants. Rather, I have pressed a single, well-taken query regarding the evidentiary basis of ID theory, a crucially important question that remains unanswered. However, in addition to my interest in your responses to this question, there has always been a meta-purpose to these queries that is directly pertinent to your "new" moderation policy. That purpose is now served by this moderation decision. This decision puts on display the dishonesty and hypocrisy that continues to infect moderation at UD. The following standard was enunciated:
As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position...if you keep your comments restricted to ideas and not attacking people, you should have no problems passing muster here.
Moderation decisions such as this give this statement the lie. UD participants neither improved their debating tactics nor modified their position in response to a question they cannot answer. Nor did they concede the obvious. Rather, moderation was invoked. As a practical matter, moderation at UD squelches participation as effectively as ejection; discourse is not possible due to the lengthy delays between the time a post is uploaded (between 12 and 24 hours, in my experience) and their appearance to others on the board. Given that my participation has been serious and respectful (certainly far more so than most ID oriented participants here), and given that my posts are in complete conformity to your new policy, it becomes inescapable that this moderation decision serves the purpose of suppressing discourse unfavorable to UD. Am I surprised? Upset? No, this this is the outcome I expected from the outset. It is an entailment of the assertion that UD cannot and will not tolerate articulate challenges that such challenges invariably illicit suppression. Entailment confirmed.Reciprocating_Bill
March 21, 2009
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Crater @313
Bill seems to have disappeared. Was he put on moderation or did he run away?
He appears to be subject to the moderation queue. Since the new moderation policy clearly states:
As a general rule, so long as your comment is not defamatory profane, or a vicious personal attack, you can say pretty much what you want. We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position.
I would like the moderators, in the spirit of this respect for honest and open discussion, to explain how RB has violated the stated policy. It appears to me that his moderation is clearly due to his viewpoint. Jerry, Joseph, and Upright BiPed have all been far less polite than RB and David Kellogg. Why, specifically, is RB being moderated? Surely it can't be for the crime of asking questions that ID proponents can't answer? JJJayM
March 21, 2009
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Onlookers, this is most interesting: From: 303 Joseph 03/20/2009 4:57 pm And why is what worked throughout history to falsify the design inference not any good for ID? Ah, still you haven't said anything about what would falsify ID save that "proving 100%", if you knew science you know that proof is not part of it (tell me how does gravity work?) evolution did it. See I know evolution DID do it. How is why people get Noble Prizes. Still it is sad to see that ID, which is an attempt to explain things, albeit ever so whimsically, happen. First it was a "designer" drove his chariot/barge/wagon across the sky dragging/pulling/carrying the sun. Then we had "designer lightning" which were hand crafted. This doesn't include the sounds of thunder as designers caused that as their hammers met the thick skulls of giants. So I apologize- don’t shut up- keep babbling on because you provide the reasoning for moderation policies, which is the topic of this thread… In truth, I have done nothing but protest when I was attacked, insulted or ridiculed. From: Frank H is next on the list with a thrifty 11 swings at the ball. It’s worth noting that he was almost disqualified for teasing the judges. He opened his mouth, but nothing came out. Yes, so much to ask for a real item that would falsify ID. As there is nothing save an appeal to "common sense" that "tells us if has to be designed even though we can't determined what is and what isn't designed". Then when the proposal that "forensic specialists do this all the time" is brought in, the fact that forensics technicians do look to see not if something was planned but who the planners were is ignored completely. You can't claim "looking for design" from some "Intelligent Designer" when you already hold that this designer is A: Singular and B: Intelligent. ID must first find a way to accurately detect design in nature and not just "Because it looks that way" and it be used with 100% accuracy in field tests. That is something IDist seem to recoil from. Last: 309 kairosfocus 03/21/2009 3:24 am But, surprise: that’s how real world science, forensics, history, management and a lot of other serious disciplines and arts work — by glorified common sense that seeks to find the truth while being conscious of the possibility of error. Which is not applied to ID. One small quibble. Truth is the property of Philosophy. Facts and Evidence are the meat and potatoes of Science. ID admits nothing that they could be in error, hence the steadfast refusal to look into what these designers are, nor to actively seeking facts. So, again, selective hyperskepticism leads to self referential absurdity. Like the notion that there are self-replicating molecules, not quite life but blurring the line? I'll ask again for what would be alive: Virus: Yes/No Prion: Yes/No So we already know there are self-replicating proteins out there. Are they alive? Any takers? Predictably. Yes that ID doesn't ask questions of itself and leaves it to others to "prove a negative". Ever so sadly so. That we are stuck instead of taking resources into science (perhaps the Discovery Institute could take money from their legal fund and put it into research instead) and have to continue to defend against claims that are continually shot down, just repackaged and given a new label.FrankH
March 21, 2009
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Bill seems to have disappeared. Was he put on moderation or did he run away?crater
March 21, 2009
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Onlookers: The ID explanatory filter is an excellent place to begin serious thinking on the matter. Look it up in the WACs above, and in the glossary. It is painfully plain that RB et al have never seriously and consistently thought about the logic of the EF, or about the epistemology of defeatable, empirically based reasoning and warrant on inference to best explanation. But, surprise: that's how real world science, forensics, history, management and a lot of other serious disciplines and arts work -- by glorified common sense that seeks to find the truth while being conscious of the possibility of error. So, again, selective hyperskepticism leads to self referential absurdity. Predictably. Ever so sadly so. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 21, 2009
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So they want to know how to disconfirm/ falsify intelligent design, ie the design inference. I point out to do just that demonstrate that nature, operating freely can for account for it. They say that isn’t any way of doing such a thing. I point out that design inferences have been refuted in the past by demonstrating that nature, operating freely can account for it. IOW I confirm what I said is the way it is done. They say that “yeah, design inferences have been refuted in the past so there.” You guys should be very proud of yourselves.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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Upright Biped [306], your question as you first framed it is problematic. It's premised on the notion that there are "killer experiments" that upend a wholly established theoretical perspective that's got support from numerous areas. People have mentioned examples that you don't accept, but the fact is that evolutionary theory has a whole range of observational and experimental data. It can get adjusted by an individual experiment, or observation, and eventually such experiments or observations could transform it completely, but it's solidly established. This is part of what I was trying to get at with the comment that evolution is embedded in, and depends on, a whole bunch of other sciences. If ID is a science at all, it would be a science in embryo. It does not have a substantial track record of published research. Unlike an established theory, a nascent theory can be subject to a killer experiment or observation: in fact, it should ask to be tested by such experiments. For a time in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, it was thoguht by many that what was called the "blending problem" falsified evolution by natural selection. That could have been an evolution-killer. It wasn't, however, because the blending problem turned out to be a non-problem with the return of Mendelian genetics and the rise of the new synthesis. The problem was this: Darwinism predicted that there must be a way for heritable traits to be preserved in discretely. The new synthesis worked that out.David Kellogg
March 20, 2009
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jerry [305], would that all IDers would agree with that. Not a snowball's chance in Hades, but it would be nice. It doesn't answer the question of dependence that I posed above, but it does present an answer -- and a good one -- to what ID should accept vis-a-vis standard science.David Kellogg
March 20, 2009
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Have a good weekend all.....Billy remember, games are not a search for truth (see K Popper). As it turns out, they are just games after all. And, your intellectual justifications for playing games, have absolutely nothing to do with it.Upright BiPed
March 20, 2009
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I've been quietly keeping score on this thread. since comment #186. So far, the low man on the totem pole is actually a shared title, with both Khan and Ricardo Simmons having 2 swings at bat each. Next on the list is the smarmy Jay M who needs to get his money back on the acting lessons, he comes in with 5 swings at bat. Frank H is next on the list with a thrifty 11 swings at the ball. It's worth noting that he was almost disqualified for teasing the judges. He opened his mouth, but nothing came out. David Kellog is number 2 in your Program (but number on in your heart) he just misses out on the Title, with a very impressive 13 swings at bat. And that leads us to Numero Uno, the Big Kahuna. The man who demands an answer, the man that lives up to his moniker, the man who missed the very first pitch, none other than Reciprocating Bill with an amazing 20 trys at hitting the ball. Timaues wins, yet again.Upright BiPed
March 20, 2009
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David, Rabbit in the Cambrian, Kellogg: While you are playing in your intellectual cul de sac, read this which is a draft version of what I believe all ID people should say prior to a debate. I may have linked to this above but this thread is already getting too long to continue. This has been ok'd by the creationists and the Darwinists. You can give your imprimatur for the Looney Tunes crowd which you seem to be in sync with. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/november-apologetics-conference-we-need-more-than-good-arguments/#comment-296129jerry
March 20, 2009
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What I said was that design claims for the natural world tend to collapse with increasing knowledge.
Sometimes it does and other times it does not. Stonehenge, Nasca, the Sphinx once it was uncovered. The list of design inferences that have upheld the test of time is greater than the list of design inferences that have been refuted via the same test.
1. All of these so-called design inferences were false positives and should have been labeled “I don’t know”
The theory of evolution should be labeled "we don't know". So what is your point? That someone went out on a limb given their current understanding of the world? Bad boy. No one should ever do that!
2. The general course of knowledge of the natural world is for design explanations to be replaced by natural ones, and not the other way round.
That is what happens when people go out on limbs. Some get cut-off. But anyway I do believe, well I know for a fact, that there are once thought to be "natural" structures that have turned out to be, upon further inspection, artificial. So it cuts both ways.
When faced with a design claim and a naturalistic one, the naturalistic one almost always wins over time.
Has the naturalistic explanation "won out" at Stonehenge? How about Nasca?
Therefore, other things being equal, one should always be suspicious of design explanations and favor natural ones.
But all things are not equal and when someone tells me that living organisms arose from non-living matter via molecular accidents I am very suspicious.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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So when you said drift and deterioration, it was a flag that you did not understand the debate.
But now you know I was responding to Joseph's misleading use of "accumulation," and his twice repeated demand for a prediction. Given my (mis)understanding of what he intended by "accumulation" (eg., something other than accumulation), my response is correct. I don't hear you disputing that. The balance of your post again describes your justification for rejecting the assertion that current evolutionary theory accounts for the origins of macroevolutionary changes and complex biochemical systems. However, the (putative) failure of an entailment of evolutionary theory does not convert to support for ID. That is because such a finding does not permit the distinction between "ID is also wrong" and "ID is correct." Why don't you speak to that, just for variety. What is required is an entailment that arises uniquely from ID, and an empirical test of that entailment such that ID, or a major tenet of ID, is put at risk of disconfirmation. None of the above is responsive to that. Why not give it a whirl.Reciprocating_Bill
March 20, 2009
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Frank:
OBTW, “accidents” are not really part of ToE.
They are a MAJOR part of the ToE. EVERY genetic difference from one generation to the next is an accident.
See, I can see how self-replicating molecules could, over millions of years replicate themselves into self-organizing strands that blur the line between living and non-living matter.
You can see that? So your imagination is a substitute for scientific data?
so are you going to give an example of what it will take to falsify ID?
The SAME thing it took to falsify the design inference at other times throughout history- That is DEMONSTRATE that nature, operating freely can account for it. What part of that don't you understand? And why is what worked throughout history to falsify the design inference not any good for ID? So I apologize- don't shut up- keep babbling on because you provide the reasoning for moderation policies, which is the topic of this thread...Joseph
March 20, 2009
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The theory of evolution should have been shaken once the black box of the cell was unveiled. Yet here we are...Joseph
March 20, 2009
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David Kellogg:
a lack of rabbit fossils in the Cambrian would not necessaraily support evolution. But a presence of such fossils would definitely falsify evolution, ...
Why? Where in the theory of evolution does it say "we will not find rabbits in the Cabbrian"? And if finding a needle in the haystack is your interpretation of a falsification then you are sadly mistaken.Joseph
March 20, 2009
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Clive, My apologies. These guys keep asking for something they have been handed. Then when I show that is EXACTLY the process that has been used to refute or confirm the design inference throughout our history, they ignore that too. So the only way to resolve this is for them to provide a falsifiable entailment of their position- an accumulation of genetic accidents. Next I get questioned on my use of an accumulation of genetic accidents but guess what?
Living organization is the product of cumulative selection. –Dawkins, pg 45 of “The Blind Watchmaker (bold added)
cumulative 1 a: made up of accumulated parts b: increasing by successive additions Dawkins agrees with me...Joseph
March 20, 2009
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Kellogorus, what do you think of that new feathered dino fossil they just found in China?SaintMartinoftheFields
March 20, 2009
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So, jerry, I take it that ID does not depend on any of the major findings in earth science, planetary science, genetics? What about physics? New studies overthrow the atomic theory of matter. Does that undermine ID? All of these sciences could be thrown on their heels and ID would just proceed on its merry way?David Kellogg
March 20, 2009
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Joseph, Don't tell others to shut up. I will put you under moderation if you continue.Clive Hayden
March 20, 2009
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I am sorry David, but it's no good to go all teary eyed philosophical on us now. You have already been enshrined and appropriately honored. It is too late to seek another pedestal. It would just be too hard to change your self image now.jerry
March 20, 2009
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Actually, jerry implicitly raises an interesting question. That is, what other sciences and theories does ID rely on? As he points out, a rabbit in the Cambrian would falsify something else -- common descent, perhaps, or an old earth. But evolution depends on those ideas. Evolution would be shaken by a rabbit in the cambrian. ID? Not so much. Evolution would be shaken by the overthrow of an old earth. ID? Makes no difference. Evolution would be shaken by the discovery of advanced life that had existed for a long time on Earth but had no relation to known genetics. ID? Who cares? So here's the question for ID supporters: what areas of science are required for ID to proceed? Could everything in science be overturned and ID remain the same? What sciences does it rely on in the sense that, if they radically shift, it's got to radically shift as well?David Kellogg
March 20, 2009
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David Kellogg said, "a lack of rabbit fossils in the Cambrian would not necessarily support evolution. But a presence of such fossils would definitely falsify evolution, " David, you do not have to repeat the obvious. You already have established your bona fides and we will respect your achievement and you will forever be renown and honored as David, rabbit in the Cambrian, Kellogg; evolutionary aficionado extraordinaire.jerry
March 20, 2009
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From: 287 Joseph 03/20/2009 2:50 pm Exactly what IDists have been saying forever- the SAME thing that has falsified design inferences throughout our history- reduce and simplify. But those have never been identified nor has any rigorous test for what is and is not designed been made that works. OK Frank- do tell us about the process that was used to determine that nature, operating freely can bring forth living organisms from non-living matter and that all of life’s diversity owes its collective common ancestry to some unknown populkation(s) of single-celled organisms, via an accumulation of genetic accidents? Wow. Answering a question with a question. Hey, this is the board for ID, not evolution. If you want to attack Evolution, of which Abiogenesis is not part of ToE. OBTW, "accidents" are not really part of ToE. Provide the process used. Or shut up… Wow. You want me to provide a Noble Prize winning paper on Abiogenesis or I can shut up? And all I asked for was just an example of what would falsify ID. To answer your question, what type of evidence are you looking for? See, I can see how self-replicating molecules could, over millions of years replicate themselves into self-organizing strands that blur the line between living and non-living matter. We still have examples of that "blurred line". Tell me are viruses alive? Yes/No How about Prions? Yes/No So what came before the first "true lifeform" on Earth? A nearly identical chemical process that was self-replicating. If you want more, go to Google and type in Abiogenesis. My field of study was Physics, now I build networks. so are you going to give an example of what it will take to falsify ID? As I am not an IDist here, I will not use the same language you use on me. I'd be banned.FrankH
March 20, 2009
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jerry, a lack of rabbit fossils in the Cambrian would not necessaraily support evolution. But a presence of such fossils would definitely falsify evolution, while it would not do a thing to ID.David Kellogg
March 20, 2009
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Joseph,
EXACTLY! That is what I just posted!!!!!
Not really. What I said was that design claims for the natural world tend to collapse with increasing knowledge. This means two things: 1. All of these so-called design inferences were false positives and should have been labeled "I don't know" 2. The general course of knowledge of the natural world is for design explanations to be replaced by natural ones, and not the other way round. When faced with a design claim and a naturalistic one, the naturalistic one almost always wins over time. Therefore, other things being equal, one should always be suspicious of design explanations and favor natural ones. Now I know other things aren't equal: the Darwinbots are repressing the IDists, ID needs funding, yadda yadda. But history favors the natural explanations, time after time after time.David Kellogg
March 20, 2009
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Talk about giving the farm away, did you all see what David Kellogg said. "Frank is also pretty clear, and I think correct. " I think we can pretty well categorize David Kellogg with the rabbit in the Cambrian crowd. David, welcome to a very select group of people.jerry
March 20, 2009
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Joseph,
Selection is a process of accumulation. Anyone with any knowledge of the theory of evolution would have understood that simple premise.
Thanks: you're so sweet. Can you give me a standard reference that makes that claim? For example, the word "accumulation" isn't mentioned in the two major entries on "selection" in the Encyclopedia of Life Sciences. Anyway, a few days ago you wrote:
There isn’t any such thing as “cumulative selection” in nature.
So: selection is accumulation, but there's no such thing as cumulative selection?David Kellogg
March 20, 2009
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Whoa, we awakened Reciprocating Bill up and he is now talking specifics. He said "Joe requested a prediction based upon the accumulation of genetic errors. He claims he means “selection” when he says “accumulation,” but of course “accumulation” does not at all imply selection. Therefore I described the likely outcome of an increase in mutations (accumulation of mutations in the English sense of “accumulation,” not the Joeish sense) absent the impact of selection. My description is correct: amassing mutations absent selection would result in increased variability, drift, and ultimately the reduction of the average fitness of the population as a whole." Reciprocating Bill, if you read what I said on this thread you will see I mentioned two forms of gradualism and the first form of gradualism is now considered passé by most in evolutionary biology. That is the Darwin version of gradualism or the small changes of a genome over time eventually leading to new capabilities as each of these changes are presented to the real world and subject to all the genetic and environmental processes that go into selection. The second form of gradualism which arose due to Gould and Eldredge's acknowledgment that the traditional form of gradualism did not match the fossil record and they came up with something called punctuated equilibrium. But punctuated equilibrium needed a science behind it and the quick changes out of the way over there when a sub population gets lost from its parent population sounds more like traditional Darwinian story telling. So some came up with a second form of gradualism which has some backing from genomes and one that did not have the problem of gradual selection along the way. That is some part of the genome gets duplicated and since the original is still fully functional, this duplicated part is a luxury and can just sit there and mutate. Since this happens lots of times to genomes, there are many sub genomic parts just mutating away and most, almost 100%, will do what mutations generally do, amount to nothing positive. But a few, a precious few, will become something new and great and this is the source of new complex capabilities. So I have answered my question about the origin of novel complex capabilities or have I. That is the question to be answered. ID says no because even this process does not have enough probabilistic resources to accomplish what has to be done. Evolutionary biology says yes. Then I described a process on how this stand off will probably be answered. So when you said drift and deterioration, it was a flag that you did not understand the debate. The debate has always been about the origin of complex novel capabilities and not such trivial things as natural selection, drift, or deterioration. While the proper way to write a hypothesis has its use, the science of this will be done on pure analysis of genomes in the next 50 years.jerry
March 20, 2009
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Exactly what IDists have been saying forever- the SAME thing that has falsified design inferences throughout our history- reduce and simplify.
But those have never been identified nor has any rigorous test for what is and is not designed been made that works.
OK Frank- do tell us about the process that was used to determine that nature, operating freely can bring forth living organisms from non-living matter and that all of life's diversity owes its collective common ancestry to some unknown populkation(s) of single-celled organisms, via an accumulation of genetic accidents? Provide the process used. Or shut up...Joseph
March 20, 2009
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