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A Response to The Materialists’ “Possible Possum” Gambit

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Frequent commenter Popperian often employs the “Possible Possum Gambit.” Here’s how he does it:

Barry:  An effect cannot be brought about by a cause that is incapable of producing the effect.  A pile of bricks can “cause” some things if they are organized in a particular way, a house for instance.  But a pile of bricks is incapable of causing a mental image of an imaginary unicorn.  Why?  It should be obvious, but I will spell it out.  A pile of bricks is in a different ontological category from a mental image of an imaginary unicorn.  Therefore, we can rule out a priori “pile of bricks” as a possible cause of “imaginary unicorn.”

Similarly, the physical chemicals in the brain are incapable of producing the mental images in the mind.  There is a vast, unbridgeable ontological gulf between physical things and mental things.  Therefore, we can rule out, in principle and a priori “chemicals” as a cause of “thoughts.”

Popperian invariable yells “False!  You’ve committed inductivism.”  Before we show why Popperian is wrong, let’s get clear what he is talking about.  Wikipedia describes the issue as follows:

Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that “all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white”, before the discovery of black swans)

So why is Popperian wrong?  Simple, it is not inductivism to assert that things in one ontological category cannot produce effects in another ontological category.  For example, the number “seven” cannot cause the smell of roses.  The color “orange” cannot cause “pi to fifteen digits.”

And if Popperian were to yell, “False! You are committing inductivism,” we would think he is a loon.  This is not the same thing as the black swan error, because we are not inferring a universal principal based upon necessarily limited empirical observations.  Instead, our conclusion is grounded in a more fundamental metaphysical foundation:  logical possibility (or impossibility as the case may be).  In no coherent universe does “seven” cause “smell of roses.”  Therefore, this, like all logically impossible statements, can be ruled out on an a priori basis.

But, Popperian, continues, you don’t know that chemicals cannot cause thoughts.  It’s possible that they do.  This is where Popperian gets “Possible Possum” syndrome.  You remember Possible Possum from the old Deputy Dawg cartoons right?  His catch phrase was “It’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool.”  See here.

Well Popperian, that’s not how we do science or metaphysics.  If I say we can rule out a priori “pile of bricks” as a possible cause of “imaginary unicorn” because it is logically impossible for a pile of bricks to cause an imaginary unicorn, it is absurd to stamp your foot and say “You’ve committed the error of inductivism, because it’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool!”

Bare, unsupported claims of possibility will not defeat my a priori claim.  You are the one asserting possibility, so it is your burden to demonstrate possibility by outlining a plausible mechanism for how a pile of bricks could cause an imaginary unicorn.  And if you can’t even begin to do so, my claim is unrefuted.

The same goes with my claim that we can exclude “chemicals” on an a priori basis as being a cause of “mental images.”  Again, the bare assertion “it’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool” gets you nowhere.  If you say it’s possible, then show us; until then my claim stands unrefuted.

Comments
Zach: The brain mirrors sensory reality, and by doing so, the organism can act with purpose.
I suppose you mean part of the organism can act with purpose? Part of the brain, I suppose. Some physical processes in neural networks located in the brain. Why do you insist on crediting purely physical processes with teleology?
Rosenberg: This [purpose] is harmless, perhaps even helpful—a convenient metaphor. (…) Such expressions, which credit purely physical processes with volition, intention, and foresight, not to mention intelligence and wisdom, can always be cashed in for descriptions that deprive nature of these capacities. It’s obvious why most people have chosen the interpretative culture of the humanities, the path of embroidering on illusion, even after science hit its stride. To begin with, there was selection for the theory-of-mind ability, which carried along conscious thoughts that seem to be about the conspiracies behind people’s behavior. The ability still works, up to limits that social and behavioral science has discovered. Like any by-product of a local adaptation, interpreting people’s behavior in terms of motives is hard to shake, even when the brain’s predictions go wrong, sometimes catastrophically wrong. We won’t give up relying on interpretation until long after the ability that carries it along has ceased to be adaptive. Why? Because interpreting other people’s lives by figuring out what their thoughts might be about is fun, entertaining, and sometimes even great art. That’s how interpretation fools us into thinking it’s doing the work instead of the neural circuits. It’s a lot harder to do science than it is to spin out stories about why people do things in terms of their possible or plausible thoughts about stuff. Experimental science and abstract mathematical theorizing are difficult—boring drudgery for most people. But both are required to produce a neuroscientific explanation of human behavior. So, even many of us who endorse scientism will continue to read and watch and listen to the histories, biographies, memories, novels, films, plays, and broadcasts that employ the illusory approach of finding meaning and purpose in human affairs. It’s easier to follow and much more entertaining than science because it comes packaged as stories, and science never does. Fortunately for us, being scientistic doesn’t require we become scientists. It’s obvious why most people have chosen the interpretative culture of the humanities, the path of embroidering on illusion, even after science hit its stride. To begin with, there was selection for the theory-of-mind ability, which carried along conscious thoughts that seem to be about the conspiracies behind people’s behavior. The ability still works, up to limits that social and behavioral science has discovered. Like any by-product of a local adaptation, interpreting people’s behavior in terms of motives is hard to shake, even when the brain’s predictions go wrong, sometimes catastrophically wrong. We won’t give up relying on interpretation until long after the ability that carries it along has ceased to be adaptive. Why? Because interpreting other people’s lives by figuring out what their thoughts might be about is fun, entertaining, and sometimes even great art. That’s how interpretation fools us into thinking it’s doing the work instead of the neural circuits. It’s a lot harder to do science than it is to spin out stories about why people do things in terms of their possible or plausible thoughts about stuff. Experimental science and abstract mathematical theorizing are difficult—boring drudgery for most people. But both are required to produce a neuroscientific explanation of human behavior. So, even many of us who endorse scientism will continue to read and watch and listen to the histories, biographies, memories, novels, films, plays, and broadcasts that employ the illusory approach of finding meaning and purpose in human affairs. It’s easier to follow and much more entertaining than science because it comes packaged as stories, and science never does. Fortunately for us, being scientistic doesn’t require we become scientists. Now we know what’s wrong with stories. We know how we got saddled with a love of them. And alas, we also know why it’s so difficult for science to displace stories. [Rosenberg]
Box
August 22, 2015
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Seversky:
The computer you typed that into is evidence to the contrary.
That is your opinion. We wouldn't exist in a materialistic world which means computers wouldn't exist. Please model materialistic processes producing a biological replicator. Without that no computers, no technology, no modeling. Please give us some predictions of materialism.Virgil Cain
August 22, 2015
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Virgil Cain @ 73
Materialism lacks testability. It lacks models. It lacks support.
The computer you typed that into is evidence to the contrary. All of our current scientific and technological achievements are based on a materialistic assumption. It has been - and is still being - tested and has passed all such, so far. Our most successful current scientific theories, such as relativity and quantum mechanics and evolution, are accounts of aspects of the material world. It is as well-supported as anything can be.Seversky
August 22, 2015
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Barry: "Similarly, the physical chemicals in the brain are incapable of producing the mental images in the mind." That may be so but the organization of the chemicals is still a precondition for the universe of mind. A photograph of a house is sort of the same relationship as an actual house and a mental image of a house. The photograph is material, and just as well are mental images material, because the existence of them is fact. Love etc. are categorically different from mental objects, because love belongs to the category of agency of a decision. Even I can have a mental image of a leprechaun in mind, to have a mental image of a loving leprechaun in mind, I can make him do things in my mind, but I cannot make an image of the love.mohammadnursyamsu
August 22, 2015
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Zachriel is stuck on mundane "purpose". It is obviously clueless to the higher purpose that ID and Creation say exists. Materialism lacks testability. It lacks models. It lacks support.Virgil Cain
August 22, 2015
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Box: However, your claim that the brain mirrors sensory reality with the purpose in mind “to analyze the past and model the future” is contentious. Purpose is one of those words you overload with meaning. Let's simplify it. The brain mirrors sensory reality, and by doing so, the organism can act with purpose. Box: Can you provide a quote or two? We already quoted Hume. "Reason Is and Ought Only to Be the Slave of the Passions." Box: Argument free assertion. We'll restate. The claim was that materialism was inherently inconsistent, but you have repeatedly failed to justify that claim. You find it implausible, which an entirely different claim. As for the claim that materialism is consistent, it is a closed system. You might find the philosophy limited and incomplete, but again, that is an entirely different claim. Box: "The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives. " What is happening is that there is an equivocation on the word purpose (and with free will). If someone always chooses chocolate over vanilla*, and we show that this is due to some genetic facet in their makeup, that doesn't mean they don't act with purpose in the normal sense of the word when they choose chocolate. * Substitute ice cream or a poke in the eye with a hot poker as the choices to make clear the truth of the statement. Given the choice, people choose. That's what we mean by free will, and the act of choosing is with purpose.Zachriel
August 22, 2015
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A.Rosenberg on “purpose” being a mere metaphor:
This [purpose] is harmless, perhaps even helpful—a convenient metaphor. (…) Such expressions, which credit purely physical processes with volition, intention, and foresight, not to mention intelligence and wisdom, can always be cashed in for descriptions that deprive nature of these capacities. In the rest of this book, hold me to the promise that any talk about purposes is harmless metaphor. Intentions, volitions, designs, solutions, or any other kinds of actions in nature—implied or expressed—must always be cashed in for the mindless process Darwin discovered.
A.Rosenberg: humans are devoid of purposes.
Some of the conclusions to which science commits us sound so bizarre that many people, including scientists and philosophers, have gone to great lengths to avoid them, deny them, or search for a way of taking the sting out of them. Among the seemingly unquestionable truths science makes us deny is the idea that we have any purposes at all, that we ever make plans—for today, tomorrow, or next year. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak. Farewell to the purpose-driven life. Whatever is in our brain driving our lives from cradle to grave, it is not purposes. But it does produce the powerful illusion of purposes, just like all the other purposeless adaptations in the biological realm.
Box
August 22, 2015
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Zach: Mirroring sensory reality is a function of the brain. That’s hardly contentious.
However, your claim that the brain mirrors sensory reality with the purpose in mind “to analyze the past and model the future” is contentious.
Zach:
Box: All the brain is and does is without purpose — it all simply evolved with no purpose or goal in mind.
According to materialism, the brained organism acts with purpose, even if it sprang from a natural process undirected by a purposeful agent.
Can you provide a quote or two? Meanwhile here is atheist philosopher Rosenberg:
It’s hard to see how there could be purposes or teleology in a physical universe governed by the second law. Let’s be absolutely clear: no teleology, no purposes, goals, or ends. For that matter, no free-floating thoughts carrying around designs. Scientism cannot emphasize this self-denying ordinance of physics more strongly. So, the answer to the persistent question, What is the purpose of the universe? is quite simply: There is none. It turns out that Darwin banished real purposes from the realm of the living as thoroughly as Newton drove it out of physical reality. The banishment of purpose from the universe as a whole also provides for the banishment of purposes that are supposed to make sense of human and other biological activities. When physics disposed of purposes, it did so for biology as well. It is the causal completeness of physics that purges purpose from all living things and their lives. It does so by deploying the process that Darwin discovered. [Rosenberg]
Zach: There is no contradiction in this position, even if you don’t find it persuasive.
Argument free assertion. If there is no contradiction here, then contradictions don't exist. It's like saying that freedom emerges from deterministic processes. Or like saying that life emerges from dead matter. Or like saying that everything emerges from nothing. Wait a minute ... that stuff is what materialists are saying isn't it?Box
August 21, 2015
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Box: The brain and its functions are evolved by purposeless evolutionary processes. Or, according to a materialist, some other natural process. Box: Now you are telling me that the brain has a purpose for “mirroring sensory reality”. Mirroring sensory reality is a function of the brain. That's hardly contentious. Box: All the brain is and does is without purpose — it all simply evolved with no purpose or goal in mind. According to materialism, the brained organism acts with purpose, even if it sprang from a natural process undirected by a purposeful agent. There is no contradiction in this position, even if you don't find it persuasive.Zachriel
August 21, 2015
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Zach: Physicalists assert that mind is a function of the brain, that it mirrors sensory reality in order to analyze the past and model the future.
And that's were the circle closes and we are back at assumptions and assertions. The brain and its functions are evolved by purposeless evolutionary processes. Now you are telling me that the brain has a purpose for "mirroring sensory reality". The goal that the brain has in mind is "to analyze the past and model the future"... Well what can I say? NOT SO according to materialistic evolution. All the brain is and does is without purpose — it all simply evolved with no purpose or goal in mind.Box
August 21, 2015
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Box: Under materialistic evolutionism, an organism doesn’t act with a purpose, a goal — a future state — in mind. If you are referring to organisms without minds, then your claim is tautological. However, organisms with minds do act with a goal in mind. Physicalists assert that mind is a function of the brain, that it mirrors sensory reality in order to analyze the past and model the future. Box: Either an action stems from a purpose or ‘known purposeless evolutionary processes’. You're conflating the proximate cause with the ultimate cause. The materialist still points to the brain as the source of mind whether or not she thinks the brain evolved or the stork brings them. Box: In short: purpose cannot emerge from purposelessness. Yes, that's your claim, and your position.Zachriel
August 21, 2015
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When mRNA is translated into polypeptide chains, it does not make any sense to say that "the organism acts with purpose". Simply because the "organism" does not produce proteins with a purpose in mind. The same goes for all actions of an organism. Under materialistic evolutionism, an organism doesn't act with a purpose, a goal — a future state — in mind. Sure we can still use "purpose" as a metaphor. However "metaphorical purpose" is not at issue here — we are talking about the real thing.
Zach:
Box: Unless … purpose magically *emerges*.
It’s not magic, but posited to be the result of known processes.
Either an action stems from a purpose or 'known purposeless evolutionary processes'. You cannot have both. When the actions of an organism are still the result of 'known purposeless evolutionary processes' — despite emergence of whatever — then there is no purpose. In short: purpose cannot emerge from purposelessness .Box
August 21, 2015
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Box: There is ‘nobody home’ in the robot. Yet it acts purposefully. Box: I suggest that neither ‘purposeless unguided evolutionary processes’ nor ‘a purposeless non-teleological universe’ are likely candidates for the job. Perhaps, but the original contention was that materialism was inherently incoherent. Box: So “purposeful” behavior isn’t grounded by the organism, but by purposeless evolutionary processes. In which case “purposeful behavior” is a mere metaphor and eliminable. It's grounded by the purposeless evolutionary process, which provides an explanation as to why and how purposeful organisms arose. However, it isn't necessary to have a valid scientific explanation to make a self-consistent claim of materialism. You can then say it isn't scientifically grounded, but that's true of non-materialist philosophies that also lack scientific explanations. Box: Unless … purpose magically *emerges*. It's not magic, but posited to be the result of known processes. That you reject this is a scientific question, not a philosophical one.Zachriel
August 21, 2015
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Zach: By analogy, a robot can act with purpose, (...)
There is 'nobody home' in the robot. Everyone understands that the robot is merely instrumental to the purpose of its intelligent designer.
Zach: and while a robot is artificial, that doesn’t mean a natural arrangement of parts can’t also show purpose.
External to the robot there is a purposeful intelligent designer. Obviously purpose doesn't stem from the robot and can therefor not be grounded by the robot. Similarly purpose isn't grounded by the organism, but must be grounded by something external to it. I suggest that neither 'purposeless unguided evolutionary processes' nor 'a purposeless non-teleological universe' are likely candidates for the job.
Zach: Assuming the materialist accepts evolution, then yes; the purposeful behavior of the organism is a product of the evolutionary process.
So "purposeful" behavior isn't grounded by the organism, but by purposeless evolutionary processes. In which case "purposeful behavior" is a mere metaphor and eliminable. Unless ... purpose magically *emerges*.Box
August 21, 2015
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Box: Teleology in biology must be regarded as metaphorical and as eliminable. No. Even if the purposefulness can be reduced (and not all materialists believe everything can be so reduced) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's an emergent quality of organisms. By analogy, a robot can act with purpose, and while a robot is artificial, that doesn't mean a natural arrangement of parts can't also show purpose. That's a matter of empirical investigation, not philosophy. Box: The actions and features of an organism stem from unguided purposeless non-teleological evolutionary processes Assuming the materialist accepts evolution, then yes; the purposeful behavior of the organism is a product of the evolutionary process.Zachriel
August 21, 2015
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Zach: Those materialists who accept evolution see it as a process undirected by a purposeful agent. However, organisms act with purpose.
This is (again) trollish behavior by Zach. We have been over this again and again. He simply refuses to address the point. Materialistic evolution does not posit an organism as a causal agent. Teleology in biology must be regarded as metaphorical and as eliminable. The actions and features of an organism stem from unguided purposeless non-teleological evolutionary processes — NOT from the teleological drive of the "organism" — whatever an "organism" is under materialism.Box
August 21, 2015
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Box: Materialism insists that the universe came into existence without purpose. Has no purpose. Someone can be a materialist and believe in a universe with no beginning. Box: Materialism insists that the universe and everything in it are either physical or supervene on the physical and is devoid of purpose. No. Some materialists see purpose in some things in the universe, but the purpose is parochial. Box: Materialism insists that natural law is without purpose. Okay. Box: Materialistic evolutionism insists that evolutionary processes are unguided and without purpose. Those materialists who accept evolution see it as a process undirected by a purposeful agent. However, organisms act with purpose. Box: They invoke upon *poof* magic. Purpose *emerged*. It's not magic, but posited to be a consequence of organic activity, such as of the brain. Box: Yeah plausible. Sure. Right. You may not find it convincing, but the question was not whether it was plausible, but self-consistent.Zachriel
August 21, 2015
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Zach: It’s relevant if purpose is an emergent property.
Materialism insists that the universe came into existence without purpose. Materialism insists that the universe and everything in it are either physical or supervene on the physical and is devoid of purpose. Materialism insists that natural law is without purpose. Materialistic evolutionism insists that evolutionary processes are unguided and without purpose. Why this emphasis on "no purpose"? Because they cannot allow a divine foot in the door. Then someone points out to the materialists that reason cannot exist without purpose — that science itself cannot exist without purpose (aiming for truth). So, confronted with the undeniable need for purpose, what do they — the materialists — do? They invoke upon *poof* magic. Purpose *emerged*. Purpose emerged in a purposeless universe, which consists of purposeless laws and blind particles in motion, caught up in a purposeless evolutionary process. Yeah plausible. Sure. Right.Box
August 21, 2015
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Box: You are talking about emergence. Again, it’s irrelevant to teleology. It's relevant if purpose is an emergent property. Box: That doesn’t change the fact that the physical structure on which some mental property supervenes is still produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. Or by some other unpurposed process. So? is right. There's nothing inconsistent about the position, even if you don't personally find it convincing.Zachriel
August 21, 2015
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Zach: A typical response is that desire is a brain state.
You are talking about emergence. Again, it's irrelevant to teleology.
Zach: Emergent materialists believe that some things can[not] be reduced, but supervene on the physical.
So? That doesn't change the fact that the physical structure on which some mental property supervenes is still produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. It's irrelevant that some alleged emergent mental property — fully intertwined with a lower physical level — is along for the ride, so to speak.Box
August 20, 2015
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Barry Arrington: Which one is the lie Z? Answered in the other thread. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/remedial-logic-for-materialists/#comment-576859Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Box: You start to talk incoherently, “desire” is not even a physicalistic term. That is incorrect. It's one of the primary questions that distinguishes various flavors of physicalism. A typical response is that desire is a brain state. Box: I’m saying that, according to materialism, birds didn’t grow wings because they had a desire to fly. Whether birds "grew wings" is a scientific question, not a philosophical one. A physicalist may think birds naturally spring from the mud. Box: According the materialistic evolutionist all features and actions of an organism are bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. Emergent materialists believe that some things can be reduced, but supervene on the physical. We pointed this out already. Box: Irrelevant. It's relevant because you directly stated that materialism entails evolution. It does not.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Zach:
Box: Only if you embrace holism and posit “organism” as a cause for the teleological “desire to feed”.
A materialist (physicalist) would say there is a mechanism that induces desire within the organism.
You start to talk incoherently, "desire" is not even a physicalistic term.
Zach:
Box: However, according to materialism, the desire to feed does not stem from the organism, but is bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes.
You’re confusing the proximate cause and the ultimate cause.
That is rich coming from you. I'm saying that, according to materialism, birds didn't grow wings because they had a desire to fly. According the materialistic evolutionist all features and actions of an organism are bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes.
Zach: Someone might reject evolution, still be a materialist, and nonetheless think that there is a natural mechanism.
Irrelevant.
Zach: Most materialists probably envision a bottom-up process, but some are emergent materialists and don’t think everything can be reduced in that manner.
Emergence also doesn't ground teleology. // Obviously, Zach is not the only one who speaks incoherently about purpose:
Daniel Dennett: “There is something alien and vaguely repellent about this quasi agency we discover at this level – all that purposive hustle and bustle, and yet ‘there is nobody home’”
Daniel, what grounds purpose if there is nobody home? Who's purpose are we talking about?Box
August 20, 2015
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Zachriel at comment 52 in prior thread:
Q. Are you in favor of chopping up little babies and selling the pieces like meat? A. No.
Zachriel at comment 62 in same thread:
Q. Are you in favor of allowing Planned Parenthood to chop up little unborn babies and distribute their pieces like meat as part of their fetal tissue donation program? A. When a woman decides on a legal abortion, donating the tissue for medicine is appropriate.
Which one is the lie Z? They can't both be true.Barry Arrington
August 20, 2015
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You have no empirical evidence for your grand claims.bornagain77
August 20, 2015
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bFast: eusocial insects are pretty much practicing familial altruism, or more accurately symbiosis, wouldn’t you say? The basics of eusocial behavior are familial, but sometimes eusocial insects will help other families, while sometimes individual insects in a colony will defy altruism. bFast: or more accurately symbiosis, It's not symbiosis. Symbiosis would be ants raising aphids. bFast: And we know, of course, that the benefits outweigh the detriments because evolution tells us so. It's something that can be observed, and entails specific empirical predictions. bFast: Altruism, though not easily practiced by the selfish, provides very strong emotional rewards. Sure. In a more primitive environment, humans physically close one another are likely to be related to one another. Furthermore, humans have a suite of abilities to distinguish individuals from among a group so as to reward cooperation and punish cheaters. Box: Only if you embrace holism and posit “organism” as a cause for the teleological “desire to feed”. A materialist (physicalist) would say there is a mechanism that induces desire within the organism. Box: However, according to materialism, the desire to feed does not stem from the organism, but is bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. You're confusing the proximate cause and the ultimate cause. Someone might reject evolution, still be a materialist, and nonetheless think that there is a natural mechanism. Most materialists probably envision a bottom-up process, but some are emergent materialists and don't think everything can be reduced in that manner. Box: Why do you say that? "Reason is a slave to the passions," a mere tool. Without passion, there is no action.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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bornagain77: So you admit that you have no real time empirical evidence for your grandiose claims for neo-Darwinian evolution There is plenty of empirical evidence for neo-darwinian mechanisms. Many such experiments are standard in biological training, such as replicating the Lederbergs' Experiment. bornagain77: and that ‘evolution is quite limited’. Because evolution works by modifying already existing structures, it will only explore a tiny subset of possible forms.Zachriel
August 20, 2015
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Zach:
Box: You keep telling me that materialism assumes purpose
No. Most forms of physicalism are consistent with purpose, such as the desire of an organism to feed.
Only if you embrace holism and posit “organism” as a cause for the teleological “desire to feed”. However, according to materialism, the desire to feed does not stem from the organism, but is bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. Therefor — under materialism — ‘the desire to feed’ is a mere metaphor — and quite misleading — and does not ground teleology.
Zach:
Box: What I’m interested in is grounding purpose / teleology by materialism.
Desire isn’t grounded in your notions of logic or philosophy.
Why do you say that? You say the strangest things ...Box
August 20, 2015
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Zachriel, eusocial insects are pretty much practicing familial altruism, or more accurately symbiosis, wouldn't you say? "as long as the benefits outweigh the detriments." And we know, of course, that the benefits outweigh the detriments because evolution tells us so. There remains a huge difference between a phenomenon existing, and a phenomenon being a powerful drive. Altruism, though not easily practiced by the selfish, provides very strong emotional rewards. Those who seek fulfillment and meaning without it almost always fail to find what they seek, those who seek meaning and fulfillment through it are often very satisfied, even if they have little earthy wealth to show for it.bFast
August 20, 2015
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So you admit that you have no real time empirical evidence for your grandiose claims for neo-Darwinian evolution and that 'evolution is quite limited'. Thanks. I'll remember that the next time you try to extrapolate trivial adaptations (i.e. micro-evolution) as proof for neo-Darwinism's grand claims (i.e. macro-evolution).bornagain77
August 20, 2015
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