Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Dog is a Chien is a Perro is a Hund

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File:RNA-codons.png

Photo courtesy of Wikipedia

In his “UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step” UprightBiped argued that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is like any other form of recorded information – i.e., it is an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

After several months and over 1,400 combox comments, UB’s argument has withstood a barrage of attacks from our materialist friends.  This post is a response to one such attack.

UB’s opponents argue they cannot understand what he means by “arbitrary” in his argument.  Of course, UB has good responses to this objection, and I invite you to read them in the combox.  But as I was thinking about the matter this morning, it occurred to me that there is a very simple definition of “arbitrary” that, I think, makes the matter so clear that only the willfully obtuse could deny it.  Here it is:  An arrangement of signs is arbitrary when the identical purpose could be accomplished through a different arrangement of signs if the rules of the semiotic code were different.  [“Semiotics” is the study of how signs are used to represent things, such as how a word in a language represents a particular object.]

Here’s an example of an arbitrary arrangement of signs:  DOG.  This is the arrangement of signs English speakers use when they intend to represent Canis lupus familiaris. In precise semiotic parlance, the word “dog” is a “conventional sign” for Canis lupus familiaris among English speakers.  Here, “conventional” is used in the sense of a “convention” or an agreement.  In other words, English speakers in a sense “agree” that “dog” means Canis lupus familiaris.

Now, the point is that there is nothing inherent in a dog that requires it to be represented in the English language with the letters “D” followed by “O” followed by “G.”  If the rules of the semiotic code (i.e., the English language) were different, the identical purpose could be accomplished through a different arrangement of signs.  We know this because in other codes the same purpose is accomplished with vastly different signs.  In French the purpose is accomplished with the following arrangement of signs:  C H I E N.  In Spanish the purpose is accomplished with the following arrangement of signs:  P E R R O.  In German the purpose is accomplished with the following arrangement of signs:  H U N D.

In each of the semiotic codes the purpose of signifying an animal of the species Canis lupus familiaris is accomplished through an arbitrary set of signs.  If the rules of the code were different, a different set of signs would accomplish the identical purpose.  For example, if, for whatever reason, English speakers were collectively to agree that Canis lupus familiaris should be represented by “B L I M P,” then “blimp” would accomplish the purpose of representing Canis lupus familiaris just as well as “dog.”

How does this apply to the DNA code?  The arrangement of signs constituting a particular instruction in the DNA code is arbitrary in the same way that the arrangement of signs for representing Canis lupus familiaris is arbitrary.  For example, suppose in a particular strand of DNA the arrangement “AGC” means “add amino acid X.”  There is nothing about amino acid X that requires the instruction “add amino acid  X” to be represented by  “AGC.”  If the rules of the code were different the same purpose (i.e, instructing the cell to “add amino acid  X”) could be accomplished using “UAG” or any other combination.  Thus, the sign AGC is “arbitrary” in the sense UB was using the word.

Why is all of this important to ID?  It is important because it shows that the DNA code is not analogous to a semiotic code.  It is isometric with a semiotic code.  In other words, the digital code embedded in DNA is not “like” a semiotic code, it “is” a semiotic code.  This in turn is important because there is only one known source for a semiotic code:  intelligent agency.  Therefore, the presence of a semiotic code embedded within the cells of every living thing is powerful evidence of design, and the burden is on those who would deny design to demonstrate how a semiotic code could be developed though blind chance or mechanical law or both.

Comments
He's looking for his doctoral certificate... Cut him a little slack.Axel
February 17, 2013
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'Pass...'Axel
February 17, 2013
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Gregory:
Let’s get this straight. You are a lay IDist; you promote ‘ID theory.’ Are you saying that *all* teleological arguments are by definition ‘ID’ arguments?
Lazy IDist might be more accurate. You asserted that anthropic arguments are a far cry from "IDM-ID arguments." I said they are not a far cry from ID arguments and in #363 I demonstrate the truth of what I said.
They are based upon probabilistic and inductive reasoning appealing to “inference to the best explanation” and they invoke the mantle of science.
Do you have a counter-argument or would you rather change the subject?Mung
February 17, 2013
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"No, they aren’t. They are teleological arguments." - Mung (#353) Let's get this straight. You are a lay IDist; you promote 'ID theory.' Are you saying that *all* teleological arguments are by definition 'ID' arguments?Gregory
February 17, 2013
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And Joe Felsenstein chimes in:
I think there still is reason to refute ID arguments (unless they find one that actually works). Because although we have drawn our conclusions, they are still using these arguments, and those arguments look sciency to undecided people. Granville Sewell is still proving plants can’t grow, and lots of ID commenters are still saying that if CSI can be found (basically if organisms are adapted a lot better than they would be if formed by a “tornado in a junkyard”) then it means that this could not have happened by natural selection. And semiotic something-or-other semi-proves something-or-other. So there is a need for repeated, and ever-clearer explanations of why none of those arguments work. Otherwise it will be easier for them to say that no one has ever refuted their arguments.
The way to refute our arguments are by supporting yours. And seeing that you cannot support yours then you have a serious issue with trying to refute ID. Show us blind and undirected processes producing a semiotic system of communication. Show us blind and undirected chemical processes producing CSI. However it is obvious that you will NEVER do either of those. And your current strategy is easily rebutted and your ID ignorance easily exposed. So good luck with your plan to refute ID. Too bad the way you are going about it won't work.Joe
February 17, 2013
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Gregory:
My colleagues apply ‘anthropic’ arguments regularly. But these are a far cry, thankfully so, from IDM-ID arguments.
Really?
: New Proofs for the Existence of God : Robert J. Spitzer : Chapter 2 : Indications of Supernatural Design in Contemporary Big Bang Cosmology This chapter will summarize some of the results upon which physicists base their belief in design by a supernatural intelligence. The general form of the argument used by some physicists to justify belief in a supernatural designing intelligence may be set out as follows: 1) The values of the universal constants controlling the interrelationship among space, time and energy in the universe must fall within a very narrow, closed range in order to allow any life form to develop. [high specificity] 2) But the possible values that these universal constants could have had that would have disallowed any life form from developing are astronomically higher (falling within a virtually open range). [in a huge space] 3) Therefore, the odds against an anthropic condition occuring are astronomically high, making any life form (or universal condition allowing a life form) exceedingly improbable. This makes it highly, highly unlikely that the conditions for life in the universe occurred by pure chance, which begs for an explanation (cause) - physical or metaphysical. [vast improbability given the chance hypothesis] As can be seen, this argument turns on the values of universal constants, and is therefore different from the arguments constructed by the Intelligent Design Movement.
How so?Mung
February 16, 2013
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RB: Just remember, we live in a digital age, where symbolic representations, mappings and codes -- even layercake comms protocols [or at least names!] -- are household concepts. So, in today's day and age, it will not be esoteric to notice the force of what Crick had to say in 1953:
Sir Francis Crick, March 19, 1953: “Now we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another)
Back then, digital technologies and comms protocols were exotic beyond exotic, but now, they are as close as your friendly Wi Fi network or your browser, or even ASCII text on a screen. The dismissive rhetoric has long since passed sell-by date. D/RNA serves as a molecular code-carrying medium, and mRNA acts as a control tape in the Ribosome, with tRNA acting to assemble proteins step by step, using code-recognising anti-codons at one end and pre-loaded amino acids locked to CCA coupler universal connector tips at the other. All under complex and sophisticated regulatory control involving chicken-egg causal loops. Which means a self replicating going concern depending on irreducibly complex systems and processes, has to be explained in a different way on its origin. Which points to the known cause of algorithms, coded and expressed through info processing and involving functionally specific complex information: design. Involving, per observation and related needle in haystack analysis alike -- yes, AF, Venter et al (who happen to be intelligent and purposeful, skilled agents) show this already in the primitive stages: skilled and intelligent designers. KFkairosfocus
February 16, 2013
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Why is it that purported empiricists and 'skeptics' refuse to look at the facts?Mung
February 16, 2013
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Bill, if I was describing a horse and included a large horn in the middle of its head, you'd have every right to question the validity of my observations. But I wasn't describing a horse, I was describing the material conditions of information transfer. You are welcomne to attack those observations whenever you're ready. Simply claiming they're not observations is a silly distraction, and won't suffice to refute them.Upright BiPed
February 16, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill:
A description does not an observation make.
Alan is taking a break and a new (old) comedian has taken his place. Lucky us.Mung
February 16, 2013
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And Alan and his kind in denying agency deny reality. They in fact deny themselves, and in so doing display the utter incoherence of their world view.Mung
February 16, 2013
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UB:
Allow me to cut my “definition” in half and see if we can find an observation: ”A representation is _________________________________________.” Well no, apparently that’s not an observation. There is no “observation” there whatsoever. In fact, one could easily suggest that the sentence above is literally defined by being devoid of an observation. So let’s try the other half: ”_________________ is an arrangement of matter that evokes an effect within the system, and is materially arbitrary to the effect it evokes.” To any rational person, this is clearly an observation of the object being described (what else would describe it, if not descriptions). It’s an observation that imparts certain qualities on the object.
A description does not an observation make. The function of the description in your definition is to provide criteria for deciding, by means of observation, whether the defined entity is present. It is not itself an observation. This should make it clear: "A unicorn is a horse with a single straight spiraled horn projecting from its forehead." Let's parse this as well: "A unicorn is..." Obviously, this states the term to be defined. "...a horse with a single straight spiraled horn projecting from its forehead." My definition of unicorn. It is obviously not an observation (no one has ever observed a unicorn). Rather, it is the description, provided by the definition, of what one would observe were a unicorn present, as so defined. Nothing wrong with definitions - of course, they are indispensable. But a definition is not an observation. Nor does it necessarily "carve nature at its joints" ("unicorn," for example does not). That's an empirical determination.Reciprocating Bill
February 16, 2013
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Alan Fox runs back to the TSZ and proclaims:
Now the religious nature of ID is openly admitted (even UB is happy to talk about “agency”), ID loses its raison d’être and will continue the slide into obscurity.
You have some serious mental issues, Alan. "Agency" does not = religion and ID is gaining ground, not sliding into obscurity. Just because you and your ilk can live in denial doesn't mean anything to us. As for ID's raison d’être, well that is still alive and doing very well. And it will stay alive as long as people like you refuse to ante up and support teh claims of your position. IOW materialism and evolutionism are losing their raison d’être and will slide into comedic obscurity.Joe
February 16, 2013
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Gregory contiues with his 'human analogy' objection. But he steadfastly refuses to test his complaint against the physical evidence.Upright BiPed
February 16, 2013
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Gregory:
Mung, Have you ever met a ‘professional semiotician’? I doubt most Americans even know what the word means!
What kind of argument is that? From the earlier posted link: Building on a range of disciplines from biology and anthropology to philosophy and linguistics this book draws on the expertise of leading names in the study of organic, mental and cultural codes brought together by the emerging discipline of biosemiotics. The book's 18 chapters present a range of experimental evidence which suggests that the genetic code was only the first in a long series of organic codes, and that it has been the appearance of new codes - organic, mental and cultural that paved the way for the major transitions in the history of life. While the existence of many organic codes has been proposed since the 1980s, this volume represents the first multi-authored attempt to deal with the range of codes relevant to life, and to reveal the ubiquitous role of coding mechanisms in both organic and mental evolution. This creates the conditions for a synthesis of biology and linguistics that finally overcomes the old divide between nature and culture.Mung
February 16, 2013
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Gregory:
My colleagues apply ‘anthropic’ arguments regularly. But these are a far cry, thankfully so, from IDM-ID arguments.
No, they aren't. They are teleological arguments. They are based upon probabilistic and inductive reasoning appealing to "inference to the best explanation" and they invoke the mantle of science.Mung
February 16, 2013
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Mung, Have you ever met a 'professional semiotician'? I doubt most Americans even know what the word means! My colleagues apply 'anthropic' arguments regularly. But these are a far cry, thankfully so, from IDM-ID arguments.Gregory
February 16, 2013
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Gregory:
Well, I don’t know who my other ‘ilk’ are supposed to be here, but I am an Abrahamic mono-theist anti-Big-IDist. I don’t agree with the supposed ‘bankruptcy’ of this position and instead find it to be both morally and intellectually robust.
As if that position doesn't employ design arguments or inductive reasoning as part of it's robustness. Yeah right.Mung
February 16, 2013
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Gregory: You will see that immediately Joe was corrected and has acknowledged it, expressing regrets. You, while complaining over what has been corrected and regretted [Joe sometimes falls off the wagon], show nowhere the faintest remorse over false accusations of fraud and idolatry. Please, think again, very seriously; and do better. KF PS: BA, there is a saying in my neck of the woods about monkeys that climb too high and expose themselves. Thwack, monkey stew for lunch. Let us hope G will wake up and see what he is doing to himself and his ilk.kairosfocus
February 16, 2013
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Gregory:
“DNA is not “like” a semiotic code, it “is” a semiotic code.” – Barry Arrington This quite obviously confuses human-made things with non-human made things. It shows that a lawyer is not a professional semiotician.
By implication a professional semiotician would never say or even imply such a thing. But that's just absurd. The Codes of Life: The Rules of Macroevolution (Biosemiotics)Mung
February 16, 2013
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F/N: It should be noted that just to name a "simple" case, the three body gravitational problem -- after 300 years -- remains unsolved analytically for the general case. Similar situations obtain in Quantum mech, etc. But of course, the cases we can solve analytically and those we may make suitable conditions on and solve numerically are good enough to do a lot. That's why one of my old profs was so fond of the joke about physicists being comparable to the two drunks under the lamp post. One found the other searching, and asked what is going on; lost my contacts. So, he tried to help. After quite a while, he asked, are you sure you lost your contacts here? Oh, no, over there in the dark, but this is where the light is. The real world is often beyond the reach of our state of the art mathematical and related techniques, but in truth we are a tad better off, we can throw some light with the cases we can solve or simulate. In the case in view, what we really need is some reasonable assurance that we are beyond a conservative threshold, beyond which we can be quite convinced on the signs we can see that chance and/or necessity absent design cannot be reasonably held to be causally adequate. 500 functionally specific bits, is reasonable for our practical universe for chemical level interactions, and if you want we can push to 1,000 bits for he observed cosmos. Makes no practical difference for the relevant cases, which have already been shown to lie at the heart of life and to be pervasive across cell based life. As for the notion that human designs are being projected, we have the evidence of beavers, as has been discussed with the one making the objections, that shows that designing intelligence, however limited, is not confined to humans. And, the case of software design in the context of discrete state control shows that it is skill and knowledge not humanity that are pivotal. Finally, to accept that inference to design as process is what the evidence in hand permits, is obviously not to indulge in "idolatry," etc. It has long since been shown that the attempt to make a mountain out of a mole hill over caps vs lower case, has failed; and is all too often involved in some pretty tendentious assertions that have no merit. KFkairosfocus
February 16, 2013
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"he and his ilk spew." - Barry Arrington Well, I don't know who my other 'ilk' are supposed to be here, but I am an Abrahamic mono-theist anti-Big-IDist. I don't agree with the supposed 'bankruptcy' of this position and instead find it to be both morally and intellectually robust. In regard to lawyers, Barry, you might be pleasantly surprised to hear they/you are highly regarded in the institution where I work. While otoh PR people, which are to be found in abundance at the DI, are generally maligned. My semiotician colleagues have helped me to see how important that field is to science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversations. But just as unwilling as I am to accept R. Triver's and E.O. Wilson's claims about plant or insect 'societies' (theiving without qualms from social sciences as they do) I am also unwilling to accept the claims you make here about DNA 'semiotics.' That is a rational and educated choice. You and I are much more as persons (created by a higher power) than simply our DNA, Barry. We don't (reduce ourselves to) do DNA talk, but instead speak human language. This is why I reject your 'like/is' claim.Gregory
February 16, 2013
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Gregory:
“I design, therefore the world is Designed; though I am not the designer or Designer of the world.” This is typical IDM idolatry.
Is not. Is all inductive reasoning idolatrous? How about all deductive reasoning? All reasoning period?Mung
February 16, 2013
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Momentary lapse- Barry (or kf?) please edit out my line to Alan in comment 341 that starts "So either..."Joe
February 16, 2013
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Gregory:
I could easily name 100 things that KF could not give an empirical FSCO/I value for. Easily.
So? I could easily name 100 things that you could not give an empirical Shannon information value for. Easily. Do you really think that this talking point of yours is meaningful? You must, because you keep repeating it, but you seem to be the only one who finds value in it. Perhaps it's time to move on.Mung
February 16, 2013
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KF, I was tempted to ban Gregory on account of his outrageous assertions in 337. Then I thought, better to keep him around to continue to demonstrate the bankruptcy (both moral and intellectual) of the views he and his ilk spew.Barry Arrington
February 16, 2013
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Joe: Language, please. KFkairosfocus
February 16, 2013
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Note to Alan Fox: If you don't like ID nor FCSO/I, then all you have to do is step up and produce positive evidence for your position! And it is very telling that neither you nor any other anti-ID clown can do so. You can argue against ID, although you don't argue, you just spew, but that ain't going to produce positive evidence for your position.Joe
February 16, 2013
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Gregory:
I could easily name 100 things that KF could not give an empirical FSCO/I value for.
It is doubtful that you can count to 100.
This quite obviously confuses human-made things with non-human made things.
Same principles involved, duh- it is all based on cause and effect relationships. I am sure glad that Gregory isn't an investigator.Joe
February 16, 2013
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Gregory, you are here indulging in personal and unwarranted attack, in this case via patently false accusation. This in itself points to your consistent inability to actually address the matter on its merits. I call on you to apologise therefor [and not only to the undersigned, what you have been doing to Timaeus and others on a consistent basis is inexcuasable], and -- yet another time -- I call on you to address matters on the merits. KFkairosfocus
February 16, 2013
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