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A Darwinist responds to KF’s challenge

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It has been more than a year since kairosfocus posted his now-famous challenge on Uncommon Descent, inviting Darwinists to submit an essay defending their views. A Darwinist named Petrushka has recently responded, over at The Skeptical Zone. (Petrushka describes himself as a Darwinist in a fairly broad sense of the term: he accepts common descent as a result of gradual, unguided change, which includes not only changes occurring as a result of natural selection but also neutral change.)

The terms of the original challenge issued by kairosfocus were as follows:

Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equilibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i) an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here – on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face.

Here is Petrushka’s reply:

Evolution is the better model because it can be right or wrong, and its rightness or wrongness can be tested by observation and experiment.

For evolution to be true, molecular evolution must be possible. The islands of function must not be separated by gaps greater than what we observe in the various kinds of mutation. This is a testable proposition.

For evolution to be true, the fossil record must reflect sequential change. This is a testable proposition.

For evolution to be true, the earth must be old enough to have allowed time for these sequential changes. This is a testable proposition.

Evolution has entailments. It is the only model that has entailments. It is either right or wrong, and that is a necessary attribute of any theory or hypothesis.

Evolution is a better model for a second reason. It seeks regularities.

Regularity is the set of physical causes that includes uniform processes, chaos, complexity, stochastic events, and contingency. Regularity can include physical laws, mathematical expressions that predict relationships among phenomena. Regularity can include unpredictable phenomena, such as earthquakes, volcanoes, turbulence, and the single toss of dice.

Regularity can include unknown causes, as it did when the effects of radiation were first observed. It includes currently mysterious phenomena such as dark matter and energy. The principle has been applied to the study of psychic phenomena.

Regularity can include design, so long as one can talk about the methods and capabilities of the designer. One can study spider webs and bird nests and crime scenes and ancient pottery, because one can observe the agents producing the designed objects.

The common threads in all of science are the search for regularities and the insistence that models must have entailments, testable implications. Evolution is the only theory meeting these criteria.

One could assert that evolution is true, but it is more important to say it is a testable model. That is the minimum requirement to be science.

PS:

My references are the peer-reviewed literature. We can take them one by one, if kairosfocus deems it necessary to claim the publishing journals have overlooked errors of fact or interpretation.

PPS:

To make Dembski’s explanatory filter relevant, one must demonstrate that natural history is insufficient. So I will entertain ID arguments that can cite the actual history of the origin of life and point out the place where intervention was required or where some deviation from regular process occurred.

Same for complex structures such as flagella. Cite the actual history and point out where a saltation event occurred.

Or cite any specific reproductive event in the history of life and point out the discontinuity between generations.

PPPS:

If CSI or any of its variants are to be cited, please discuss whether different living things have different quantities of CSI. For example, does a human have more CSI than a mouse? Than an insect? Than an onion? Please show your calculation.

Alternatively, discuss whether a variant within a species can be shown to have more or less CSI than another variant. Perhaps a calculation of the CSI in Lenski’s bacteria before and after adaptation.

These are just proposed examples. Any specific calculation would be acceptable, provided it can provide a direct demonstration of different quantities of CSI in different organisms.

In his original challenge, kairosfocus promised:

I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

So let’s hear it from viewers. What do readers think?

Comments
UB, okie, can we help? KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2014
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KF at #29 and #130... lol, thank you for the encouragement. I'm a one horse parade over here ... steppin' as fast as I can. :) - - - - - - - SB, Chance, thanks :)Upright BiPed
March 18, 2014
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Finally a new post- Someone named RoyC showed up on TSZ referencing Thorton et al., to refute Axe. These people have absolutely no idea...Joe
March 17, 2014
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Joe, a FTR. On Islam 101, here (also cf declaration here and Nehls-Eric here at book length), on the Judao-Christian, triune concept of God, here . On the specifically NT, C1 concept of Jesus as Christ in light of the triune concept of the Godhead, here, leading to the gospel call to salvation, here. FTR, in summary, Islam does aim to worship the God of Abraham, however there are pivotal distinctives involving in key cases . . . there is specific text on this . . . a rejection of credible history (e.g. that Jesus was crucified under Pilate) and a misunderstanding of what Christians understand about God, God the Son incarnate as Christ and Mary. There are also pivotal philosophical distinctives as Pope Benedict XVI recently underscored, dealing with a focus on the absoluteness of Will in the concept of God vs a pattern that emphasises a cluster of characteristics: truth, love, purity and redemptive purpose as pivotal expression of will. I communicate for record, hoping to avoid further tangentiality. I trust you and/or others will find these links helpful. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2014
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Joe, You utterly missed the point of my question to Sal. He got what I meant and he answered my question. For some reason you don't. Okie dokie.CentralScrutinizer
March 16, 2014
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So you meant to try to use Pascal to tell the difference between one entity. Got it.Joe
March 16, 2014
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Joe @161, That has nothing to do with my post to Sal. But thanks anyway.CentralScrutinizer
March 16, 2014
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NB: GP's first post is up, here. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2014
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CentralScrutinizer- My point is if it isn't in the Bible then Islam is not to blame for ignoring it. And it remains that the God of Islam is the God of Abraham. No ifs, ands, nor buts about it. And guess what? Jesus was not the God of Abraham. Nor was Jesus the God of Judaism. Capisce? The God of Abraham is the God of the Bible and the God of the Noble Qu'ran.Joe
March 16, 2014
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Joe: Well Jesus = God is contrived.
You're changing the subject.CentralScrutinizer
March 16, 2014
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Before I forget, Congrates Eric Anderson, GPuccio, Timaeus. Salscordova
March 16, 2014
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CentralScrutinizer:
However, Islam says Jesus is not God, and if you worship him you are an idolater and will burn in hell. Christianity says that Jesus is God, the only way to the Father, and if you don’t worship him you will go to hell.
Well Jesus = God is contrived.Joe
March 16, 2014
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Of course, the well known design strategy of adapting the wheel, multiplied by using and modding more or less standard parts in a catalogue or library, is still on the table.kairosfocus
March 16, 2014
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Oops, missed ref 3: >>3. Zuckerkandl and Pauling, "Evolutionary Divergence and Convergence in Proteins," in Evolving Genes and Proteins, Bryson and Vogel, eds. (Academic, 1965), 101.>>kairosfocus
March 16, 2014
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F/N: Luskin, in Salvo, has a useful piece on the tree of life icon addressed in my challenge: ________ >> . . . [In the 1960's] Linus Pauling and Emile Zuckerkandl, boldly predicted that phylogenetic trees based upon molecular data would confirm expectations of common descent already held by evolutionary biologists who studied morphology (i.e., the physical traits of organisms). They declared, "If the two phylogenic trees are mostly in agreement with respect to the topology of branching, the best available single proof of the reality of macro-evolution would be furnished."3 Hoping to validate Pauling and Zuckerkandl's prediction, biologists set themselves to the task of sequencing genes from all manner of living organisms. Technologies were refined, genomes were sequenced, and new discoveries were made. One revolutionary discovery was made in the 1990s, when it was realized that the "five kingdoms" view of life, taught to many previous generations of students, was incomplete. Examination of the gene sequences of living organisms revealed instead that they fell into three basic domains: Archaea, Bacteria, and Eukarya. About the same time, another discovery was made that confounded evolutionary biologists who studied genes: they found that the three domains of life could not be resolved into a tree-like pattern. This led the prominent biochemist W. Ford Doolittle to famously lament: "Molecular phylogenists will have failed to find the 'true tree,' not because their methods are inadequate or because they have chosen the wrong genes, but because the history of life cannot properly be represented as a tree."4 He later acknowledged, "It is as if we have failed at the task that Darwin set for us: delineating the unique structure of the tree of life."5
[__________ 4. Doolittle, "Phylogenetic Classification and the Universal Tree," Science, 284:2124-28 (1999). 5. Doolittle, "Uprooting the Tree of Life," Scientific American (2000).]
Conflicts in the Trees The basic problem is that, while one gene leads to one version of the tree of life, another gene leads to an entirely different tree. What seems to imply a close evolutionary relationship in one case (i.e., two similar genes) doesn't do so in another. To put it another way, biological similarity is constantly being found in places where it wasn't predicted by common descent, leading to conflicts between phylogenetic trees. When two trees conflict, at least one must be wrong. How do we know that both aren't? . . . . Perhaps the most candid discussion of the problem came in a 2009 review article in New Scientist titled "Why Darwin Was Wrong about the Tree of Life."9 The author quoted researcher Eric Bapteste explaining that "the holy grail was to build a tree of life," but "today that project lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence." According to the article, "many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded." The paper also recounted the results of a study by Michael Syvanen that compared 2,000 genes across six diverse animal phyla: "In theory, [Syvanen] should have been able to use the gene sequences to construct an evolutionary tree showing the relationships between the six animals. He failed. The problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories." Syvanen succinctly summarized the problem: "We've just annihilated the tree of life. It's not a tree any more, it's a different topology entirely. What would Darwin have made of that?" >> _________ And, we have not got to the root yet -- OOL. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2014
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F/N: Sewell has just released a smoking gun clip on the 1980 Field Museum closed door meeting, cf. my markup here. It's all there, the stuff we are so confidently told is our distortion. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2014
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F/N: It is beginning to look like, to keep up their position, evolutionary materialism advocates are increasingly being forced to deny the reality of genuine design and genuine intelligence, which imply a real ability to significantly freely make choices. A computer system is by and large deterministic (save where there are stochastic elements), and can be used to make programmed "decisions," but that is a case of displacing the real choices up one level, to the programmer and the designer of the hardware, or in some cases to the user. Of course, in viewing us as in effect glorified robots with computers for brains programmed by blind watchmaker chance and/or mechanical necessity through blind forces shaped genetic inheritance and/or cultural and psycho-social conditioning, such Darwinists radically undermine the freedom of mind to reason and know and end up in implicit self referential incoherence. As, has been pointed out repeatedly by ever so many, including here at UD. So, ironically, the ones who so often cloak themselves in the lab coats of evidence-based reason etc, thus undercut the foundations of reason and too often (usually inadvertently) open the door to cynical, amoral, nihilistic manipulation -- frequently via Plato's Cave shadow-shows. As has also been pointed out by many from Plato in The Laws Bk X on down to those who have pointed out the implications of the argument from reason. So, it is unsurprising that such will often project accusations of irrationality to those who beg to differ with them, the twist-about, turn-speech accusation tactic is notorious, and notoriously confuses the ordinary onlooker, creating a polarised, toxic, confusing atmosphere in which manipulation thrives. This, too has often been pointed out, including here at UD. It is time to see that the Emperor is naked at the head of the parade, even while imagining that he is dressed in gaudy array, and demanding that we admire his fancy new lab coat of many colours. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2014
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Joe @148: Same God, ie the God of Abraham.
However, Islam says Jesus is not God, and if you worship him you are an idolater and will burn in hell. Christianity says that Jesus is God, the only way to the Father, and if you don't worship him you will go to hell. Not so simple.CentralScrutinizer
March 15, 2014
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Sal @145: Thanks for your thoughts, and I appreciate your reminder of how much it is that we don't know. I think the question of whether a machine can be considered "intelligent" is interesting, and your cell reproduction examples are interesting (though the regress to a mind still holds quite strongly in every known case). I'm focused on a slightly more nuanced point. Namely, the fact that intelligence -- by its very definition -- includes the ability to select between contingent possibilities. That is the essence of intelligence, and is precisely what makes design possible. The idea of a purely "deterministic intelligence" is, frankly, nonsense, an oxymoron. If something is deterministic then it belongs in the "necessity" category has no ability to make contingent selections. If it can make contingent selections then it is not deterministic. Couple that rather obvious observation with the fact that deterministic, law-like processes cannot, as a matter of principle, produce information-rich systems and we start to see how quickly the idea breaks down. Thus, the idea that an information-rich system with functional contingent characteristics could be produced by a deterministic entity/process is not only against all experience, it is also against any logic or rationale. It doesn't matter how many PhD's someone has. If they are suggesting that contingent information-rich systems can be designed by a deterministic process, then they are spouting self-contradictory bluster. Sometimes rather than being polite and giving countenance to all ideas, no matter how absurd, we just have to call it for what it is. Design without a designer -- yes, an "intelligent" designer; one that can make contingent selections -- is not an interesting thought-provoking idea that deserves to be taken seriously. It is self-contradictory on its face. It makes no more sense than if someone were to claim they had discovered a round square or a square circle.Eric Anderson
March 15, 2014
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Pascal’s reasoning wouldn’t help you out if the true God happens to be the Islamic God and you worship the Christian God.
Pascal's wager and expected values in general don't tell you whether your wager will succeed, it tells you what is the most rational investment in a sea of uncertainty. Example: If you buy product insurance and you're product never breaks down, then you have made a losing wager. But given the sea of uncertainty, it may be a rational wager. For the case of Christianity vs. Islam, if one believes the payoffs are identical, the rational wager is to choose the one you believe has better evidence of being true. It does not mean your distribution function is correct, but it does state the rational move given your assumed distribution. As the old saying goes, "you play the hand you're dealt." On a less theological view, Design vs. Darwin. What is there to gain technologically if Darwin is right. Answer: 0. The Darwinists at UD have said as much here: If Darwinism were true, what is there to gain. However if ID were true, then that means biology is made by a brilliant designer and the structure of biology, like the privileged planet may be optimized to help us understand nano-technology. Bill Dembski calls this steganography. What I see is atheistic Darwinists running around promoting a zero payoff idea. The lack of rationality of doing this is jaw dropping, unless of course they have some financial or reputational stake in the matter. It's like they are trying to convince themselves they will not be accountable to God someday. I asked them point blank several times, "why do you guys defend it like the holy grail, what's the payoff to you if you're right?"scordova
March 15, 2014
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SalC: I think the actual issue pivots on the nature of induction, and particularly inference to best explanation. 1 --> Deductive arguments are rooted in axioms and their implications under various transformations; which may be surprising to us because of our finitude. But they don't actuall strictly add new knowledge. 2 --> Induction, though it sacrifices certainty relative to premises, is ampliative; adding credible knowledge when done right. 3 --> In this case, we hope to understand/explain the remote, unobserved past of origins in light of traces in the present and characteristic causes of such signs to be explained. 4 --> In this sense, P is right to ask for regularities. What happens is s/he is not consistent enough, and fails to properly address the vera causa principle. 5 --> That is, Newton is right to insist that we explain traces of what we cannot directly observe on causal factors that per here and now studies consistently and characteristically account for the effects. Either, "all the time," or by setting up distributions that with reasonable frequency, give the effects. 6 --> Characteristically is pivotal, as Meyer discusses in Signature in the Cell. For if two or more factors may give rise to an effect with reasonably comparable plausibility, unless we can find an aspect that only one accounts for well, we are left with an unresolved ambiguity. Then, we have to choose on some form or another of Pascal's wager:err on the side of prudence, charity or the like. 7 --> Which, is why unless there is warrant beyond reasonable doubt, we find a criminal defendant not guilty in Common Law derived jurisdictions. 8 --> What happens is that we have found a cluster of items, mostly connected to FSCO/I that are highly characteristic of design, and which per needle in haystack analysis are utterly implausible on chance or on chance plus necessity. 9 --> Chance, being defined in terms of factors that give rise to high and stochastically distributed contingency with on average pattern that fit mathematical models of randomness. If mechanical necessity were dominant, there would not be high contingency of outcomes under similar initial circumstances. 10 --> Design, being much as described above:
(noun) a specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints; (verb, transitive) to create a design, in an environment (where the designer operates)[2 Ralph, P. and Wand, Y. (2009). A proposal for a formal definition of the design concept. In Lyytinen, K., Loucopoulos, P., Mylopoulos, J., and (Robinson, W.,) editors, Design Requirements Workshop (LNBIP 14), pp. 103–136. Springer-Verlag, p. 109 doi:10.1007/978-3-540-92966-6_6.]
11 --> Design is an observed process and is characteristic as an output of intelligent agents, on a huge observational base. Intelligence, being something which we exhibit, beavers exhibit to a lesser degree, etc; both humans and beavers being designers. 12 --> The inductive inference to best explanation is then quite simple: FSCO/I . . . a phenomenon as common as the text in this thread and the PCs etc that people use to read it . . . is real, observable and even measurable. It is on billions of cases a reliable product of design, only observed as a product of design, and per the needle in haystack analysis is only plausibly the result of intelligently directed contingency aka design. 13 --> So, if and when we see FSCO/I in traces from the remote past of origins, we are epistemologically and logically entitled to take it as a reliable sign pointing to design as the best causal explanation of the events or effects or objects exhibiting these traces. 14 --> This is strictly independent of opinions, views, rhetoric or accusations of those who may wish to differ; on evidence . . . such as the Lewontin admission in NYRB, or Dawkins' declamations and fulminations, etc etc . . . often because of hostility to a certain candidate designer, namely God. 15 --> A simple examination of the chain of reasoning above and its history back to Plato will show that the inference in view is a contrast between what blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can do and what art . . . design . . . can do. Those who refuse to acknowledge this simply show that they are failing to do duties of care to logic, accuracy, evidence, reason and fairness. 16 --> I am under no obligation whatsoever to try to take up the burden of showing to the unreasonable, wrong-headed and too often wrong-hearted (remember the sort of menacing threats that have been made against my family, including minor children), that they are in error; beyond laying out the case for record. 17 --> Which has long since been adequately done. 18 --> Further to this, take a moment to glance at the challenge of 1 1/2 years ago and the level and tone of response after all of that time. More than enough time to have written a complex thesis, much less lay out a case commonly asserted to be as sure as the roundness of the Earth or the orbiting of the planets around the Sun. 19 --> It is utterly clear that the Emperor is stark naked at the head of the parade, pretending to be in gaudy array. GAME OVER. KFkairosfocus
March 15, 2014
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CentralScrutinizer:
Pascal’s reasoning wouldn’t help you out if the true God happens to be the Islamic God and you worship the Christian God.
Same God, ie the God of Abraham.Joe
March 15, 2014
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Sal: If there is a chance the Designer is the Christian God to whom I one day will be accountable, then resolving the question absolutely is already moot as far as I’m concerned personally. I know enough from Pascal that it is bad bet to wager on the non-existence of God.
Pascal's reasoning wouldn't help you out if the true God happens to be the Islamic God and you worship the Christian God. Obviously there are more than two possible options here.CentralScrutinizer
March 15, 2014
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Sal, According to Meyer the machines trace back to an intelligence. So yes machines can make a design because they were made to do so. the definition of intelligence: (the bold & underlined parts apply)
1a (1): the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also: the skilled use of reason 
      (2): the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think     abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)
Joe
March 15, 2014
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What kind of design do you think can possibly — even in principle — exist without some kind of intelligence?
1. If a feature of intelligence is free will, but if the Designer is a deterministic entity without free will, then is it intelligent in our sense of intelligence? Spinoza and Einstein's God and the Deist God are probably deterministic in conception. Do I buy those arguments? No. Can I refute them on logic? I don't try, I don't see the point. If there is a chance the Designer is the Christian God to whom I one day will be accountable, then resolving the question absolutely is already moot as far as I'm concerned personally. I know enough from Pascal that it is bad bet to wager on the non-existence of God. I was one of the first to broadcast this peer-reviewed pro-ID article: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-pro-id-paper-passes-peer-review/ which admits the possibility of a deterministic designer, in which case it would be dubious that we might even call it intelligent in the first place. In defense of Voie, he only cited that as a possibility, I'm pretty sure he thinks the intelligence isn't a computer. 2. Mis-identified design because of faulty understanding of physical and chemical behavior. The classic example are the craters of the moon which were once thought to be created by civilization since they were so perfectly symmetrical. I myself made a design claim at UD that was eventually falsified and may need reworking or might be abandoned altogether. In fact it may have been rooted in a mistake in one of ID's founding books, Mystery of Life's Origin. See: CEU Forum Homochirality discussion 3. If we define "intelligence" as something that makes artifacts that pass the EF, then machines can be said to be intelligent, and there are ID proponents like myself that would lean in that direction. Of course machines need machine makers, and it seems it regresses back to God, imho. But suggesting that intelligence can be mechanical (like weak AI) didn't make me many friends at UD. I pointed out a sperm and ovum as far as we know are not sentient, yet they make sentient beings with non-material souls, or should we say they made bodies that house non-material souls. How do I resolve such paradoxes? I don't know, and I don't care, I only know I will pass away one day and may stand before my creator. I'm not wagering on His non-existence. But the problem of machines making artifacts that pass the EF remains. We can resolve it by saying: 1. machines are intelligent (anathema to most ID proponents) 2. machines aren't intelligent (and then that provides a proximal counter example to intelligence only being the cause of design, especially in the event the Designer is himself a deterministic entity like Einstein's God. ) I personally don't delve much into these questions because Pascal's wager has settled which ideas I will live by, and these question seem irrelevant to the reason I studied ID to begin with.scordova
March 15, 2014
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Intelligence is that which can create counterflow. Counterflow being tat which nature, operating freely, would not or could not have produced- Ratzsch, "Nature, Design and Science". And we do make at least one prediction wrt designers, regardless of their capriciousness-> when they act within nature they tend to leave traces of their actions behind. These traces can be detected and investigated.Joe
March 15, 2014
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Sal @ 141: What do you mean by "intelligence"? If we look at the very etymology of the word, it means "to choose between" contingent possibilities. That is precisely what design is about. What kind of design do you think can possibly -- even in principle -- exist without some kind of intelligence?Eric Anderson
March 15, 2014
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RB: Thanks for the clarification, as it looked like you were posting your own comments. Thought you had gone off the deep end there for a moment. :) ----- Mapou @125:
Questions about the identity or methods of the designers may be second order to the design inference but, in the greater scheme of things, they are the first order questions that need to be asked.
Well, no doubt some people are interested in them more than they are interested in the design inference. And some people have taken up the concept of ID because they think it will help them prove their personal philosophical/religious ideas about the designer.* But that doesn't change the fact that the question about detecting design and the existence of a designer is both (i) what ID is really about, and (ii) logically prior to the second-order questions. If the answer to the design inference is negative, then we don't even get to the second-order questions.
The problem with the ID side of the debate is that they have allowed the opposition to dictate how the debate should be conducted. This is weak, in my opinion, and it’s probably the main reason that you are not winning.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that the anti-ID folks would like to see objective, science-based explanations, then I certainly have no objection to that, and that isn't their idea anyway, it is a general rational approach to the study of the world around us. We should be thrilled to have the debate conducted on such grounds. However, if you mean that the anti-ID folks are insisting that the design inference be kept separate from the second-order questions, then you have it completely backwards. It is the primary ID proponents who have insisted from day one that they need to be kept separate, while the anti-ID proponents valiantly attempt at every turn to conflate the two. They would love nothing more than to make the whole discussion about the second-order questions and the possible philosophical and religious implications. Indeed, the philosophical and religious issues are a primary motive of most ardent anti-ID proponents. So, no, the anti-ID proponents don't get to dictate how the debate is conducted. But, unfortunately, when people who are sympathetic to ID start conflating the objective, observation-based, scientifically-sound design inference with a bunch of other second-order questions, they play right into the hands of the anti-ID crowd. I trust you can see that this is what I am trying to prevent, not what I am advocating. ----- * Incidentally, a week or two ago I watched a documentary about "God's grand creation" or some such title. They referenced "design" a number of times, and even "intelligent design" once or twice. There were some good, objective, science-based parts of the film. Unfortunately, there were other parts that made me grimace. I don't begrudge anyone who wants to use scripture, for example, as the basis for their truth claims (though such an exercise is fraught with difficulties that could be discussed another time). But it is a little disconcerting to see a mish-mash of various concepts thrown together without clear delineation. Although the materially-committed, anti-religious types of the world don't have a leg to stand on, occasionally I empathize after seeing stuff like that. It would be all to easy to come away thinking "this is just a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo." This is precisely the inaccurate impression of ID that we need to avoid. And we do so by carefully distinguishing between the evidence-based claims of ID and the second-order implications that might flow from an affirmative answer to the design inference.Eric Anderson
March 15, 2014
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KF, There are two questions. 1. is ID the most reasonable assertion? I say yes. 2. is there much to be gained by insisting Intelligence is the best cause? Maybe, maybe not. If I'm talking to Nick, I don't insist on it, I don't have to, as you can see: Statistics Question for Nick. There was a reason I specifically asked Barry to pose the question to Nick in terms of chance or not-chance. I did not have the question posed to Nick about intelligent agencies. The reason is to give Nick and others no wiggle room except to look like a sophist in trying to argue in favor of chance. If I'm talking to you, I don't even have to say it because like you I think, "if there is a design, there must be a designer". I don't hold it against someone being skeptical of an ultimate intelligence or agnostic about an ultimate intelligence creating life -- Michael Denton, David Berlinski, Jack Trevors, Fredy Hoyle, Robert Jastrow will probably fall in that category. They are fair, but they wouldn't label themselves ID proponents. Being undecided is a respectable intellectual position, but obviously I think it is a risky spiritual position if the Designer is God. I certainly state what I believe, but I won't insist on ID inference with same certainty I insist on a plain vanilla D (design) inference. The Atheist/Agnostic Hoyle was a pioneer of ID theory, but in his case he was sort of pantheistic as far as the source of intelligence. Jack Trevors is another atheist, but he's argued better than almost anyone that life cannot be the product of chance and necessity. So there are people that have argued for D inferences quite vigorously without taking the final step and saying Intelligent Design or God Design.scordova
March 15, 2014
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F/N: Observe, Gauger is addressing body plan origin, in this case the transformation of an ape-plan to a human one. I think we can take it to the bank that the concerns she highlights are not in the typical textbooks and documentaries or museum displays. KFkairosfocus
March 15, 2014
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