Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Conversation With a TE

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UD Editors:  This is an update from an article originally posted in 2014.  We are posting it again in honor of the publication of “Theistic Evolution.”

 

Preliminary Note:  I have put words in the TE’s mouth based on my understanding of what he would in fact say.  If I have gotten it wrong, I trust you will inform me.

IDist: World-renowned atheist Richard Dawkins says that living things overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design by an agent (whom he calls a master watchmaker).

Theistic Evolutionist: Yes he does.

IDist: Do you agree with that observation?

TE: Yes of course. It is undeniable.

IDist: Dawkins goes on to say that the impression of design by an agent is an illusion, because the apparent design of living things can be accounted for on the basis of blind natural forces.

TE: Yes, that’s what Dawkins says.

IDist: As a TE you essentially agree with Dawkins on this point.

TE: Correct. The appearance of design by an agent is an illusion. Darwinism is reductionist at its core. The properties of all living things (except the human spirit) can ultimately be explained by the operation of blind natural forces, which St. Thomas would have grouped in the category of “secondary causes” were he alive today.

IDist: It seems that as far as material bodies are concerned (i.e., setting aside the human spirit) there is no daylight between your position and the position of someone like P.Z. Meyers, a radical atheist materialist reductionist. Am I wrong?

TE: At one level of ontology you are correct. From a methodological/empirical perspective there is no daylight between my position and the position of P.Z. Meyers (again, setting aside the issue of the human spirit). At a different, higher, more important level of ontology, however, you are wrong. You see, a process that to us appears to by haphazard and random may actually at a deeper ontological level be the product of design. In Chance, By Design, Stephen Barr argued that “horizontal randomness” should be distinguished from “vertical randomness.” Horizontal randomness is what we perceive empirically. If I roll fair dice fifty times, each roll has a 1/6 chance of being 7. But at a deeper level, what Barr calls “vertical randomness,” God can fix the game so that the roll comes up 7 as many times in a row as are necessary to accomplish his purposes. Therefore, if the dice come up “7” 50 times in a row, the series of rolls nevertheless remains the product of a stochastic process. This is “horizontal randomness.” But God willed the result in an empirically undetectable way to come out as it did (“vertical randomness”). Barr explains this in his article as follows:

. . . whether or not things unfold in accordance with natural randomness and natural probabilities, it is God who in the vertical sense is causing them to happen that way. As St. Thomas put it, ‘The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow; but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity, happens infallibly and of necessity; [whereas those things that divine providence conceives should happen from contingency], happen by contingency.’

By itself, the doctrine of divine providence only tells us that everything unfolds in accordance with God’s plan. It does not tell us what that plan is, either in its general features or in its particular details. It does not tell us the mix of law and chance, or of necessity and contingency, that God chose to use in his plan. Evolutionary history may have unfolded entirely in accordance with natural laws, natural randomness, and natural probabilities, as the great majority of biologists believe, or there may have been some extraordinary events along the way that contravened those laws and probabilities. In either case, evolution unfolded exactly as known and willed by God from all eternity.

IDist. OK. I think I understand. Like the dice coming up “7” 50 times in a row, God ordained in an empirically undetectible way that the evolutionary dice came up “life.” From our limited perception we can see the results of the process only from the perspective of “horizontal randomness,” and we say “it looks like the game is fixed,” because the results of the rolls appear to us to be astronomically improbable.  But the game is not fixed, because God can make even fair dice come up “7” 50 times in a row, and if that is what he wants even a seemingly (to us) random process is in reality infallibly designed because at a higher level – the level of “vertical randomness” — God willed it to happen.

TE: Correct.

IDist. Barr says God willed events to happen such that the biosphere as we now see it arose no matter how statistically improbably those events might be.

TE: Correct.

IDist. Another way of looking at it is that as the title of Barr’s article suggests (Chance, By Design), what appears to us to be random is actually, at a deeper level, designed.

TE: Correct.

IDist: That puts the TE in a peculiar position.

TE: How so?

IDist: Well, the TE says that the apparent design of living things is an illusion.

TE: Yes.

IDist. He also says that the illusion of design is explained by the working of random events and mechanical processes, i.e., reductionist Neo-Darwinian processes.

TE: Yes.

IDist: But then the TE goes a step further and says that the “random” processes at work in the Neo-Darwinian process are actually “random” only from our horizontal perspective. From God’s vertical perspective they are not random at all. They are infallibly willed, and another way of putting that is from a vertical perspective the events are designed to occur, no matter how improbable they appear to us.

TE: Correct.

IDist: So the TE says that the appearance of design is an illusion, and the reality that explains the illusion is random natural processes. But the reality that explains the illusion is itself an illusion, because from God’s perspective what appears to be the product of random processes is in fact designed.

TE: Yes, that is right.

IDist: So the reality behind the illusion is itself an illusion, and the ultimate reality behind that illusion is what you declared to be the initial illusion. If “design” is the ultimate reality would it not be more parsimonious to simply affirm it from the outset?

Comments
Correction to my comment at 62. When I made the reference to TE, I was using the term in the old sense. I was referring to people who believe in evolution but that God guided it. I think that's a coherent faith-based position. On the other hand, the modern incarnation of TE, where God both guides and doesn't guide evolution, is incoherent at every level.hnorman5
December 18, 2017
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testinges58
December 17, 2017
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What, not takers? Where is the problem with the above?critical rationalist
December 17, 2017
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.Dionisio
December 17, 2017
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To use analogy, If you play poker, you are dealt five cards. You can stay, or replace one, two or even all of the cards. In poker, when you replace a card, you don't know what it will be replaced with. But in the case of TE, God would be able to choose exactly what genes ("cards") to replace to get a feature ("hand").critical rationalist
December 16, 2017
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God: I'd really like some kind of complex life to appear. I bet if put the design of a simple replicator in the laws of physics to get things started, I could just sit back and wait for complex life to appear. Physical laws: [forms replicators from raw materials] God: Well, that's a good start. Physical laws: [mutations occur due to copying, resulting in the possibility of five different new functions] God: Well, those five possible functions are not ones I would have picked, but out of those five, I'll fill in the gaps that will result in the third. Physical laws: [mutations occur due to copying, resulting in the possibility of ten different new functions] God: Well, those ten possible functions are not ones I would have picked, but out of those ten, I'll fill in the gaps that will results in the second. God: I like the general direction this is headed, even though none of the options I was presented with were ones I initially picked. [Repeat the process, with different numbers of possible new/modified features, species, muti-celluar life appearing, etc. ] God: out of all the complex life that ended up appearing, I think I'll endow this one specific species with a soul. Couldn't that be compatible with TE?critical rationalist
December 16, 2017
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Theistic evolution is a good faith-based position. But if you want to see the implications of a metaphysically neutral view of science has for TE, then intelligent design is essential.hnorman5
December 16, 2017
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Barr misinterprets Aquinas, as most modern Thomists: Contingent ~= random! This is the core insight of ID; saying the world is composed of necessary and contingent forces is not the same as saying the world is composed of necessary and random forces. A contingent process can appear to be either deterministic or random. Contingent only means that there are multiple live possibilities. This is how ID kept me from becoming an atheist, and I instead became a Catholic.EricMH
December 15, 2017
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Barry, now that I have your attention, perhaps you can explain more clearly (besides your post), why there is such visceral antipathy for the one side that believes in the supernatural, TE, and the other side that believes in the supernatural, ID?rvb8
December 14, 2017
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rvb8 "I’ve never really understood . . ." That much is evident.Barry Arrington
December 14, 2017
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I've never really understood the bitterness that IDers and TEists have for each other. I view them as natural allies. TE after all believe a creator's hand is not above tinkering, as do IDists. Perhaps it's that old argument of tiny differences creating huge hatreds: Protestant/Catholic; Sunni/Shia; Communist/Socialist, etc. As an ateist I view this viscious argument as nothing but positive for the position of A/M. Surely ID and TE can find common ground? As opposition to pure AM you would have a stronger voice.rvb8
December 14, 2017
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Timaeus:
But what has this got to do with rhampton7 and his lack of concern over Catholic TEs who apparently deny the Resurrection?
Not much. But he wasn't producing any material to advance the conversation so I thought I'd take a shot at it. The thread poses too interesting a subject to just let it die because some dissenter cannot express their reason for dissent.Mung
September 26, 2014
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Hi T, Let's get the easy matter out of the way first :) I was in the Navy for 7 years, a number of which were spent upon the aircraft carrier USS Constellation (CV-64), "Connie." Underneath the spigot of our coffee dispenser was a bucket to catch the drippings from the spigot (among other substances). This bucket was called "the mung bucket." At the time I had no idea why. If someone is really intent on finding out who I am in real life they can try to find out who owns the domain name mungbucket.com. It's as harmless and as simple as that.Mung
September 26, 2014
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Mung: Hi there! Obviously, if a Christian who opposes evolution, in the course of opposing it, says a lot of scientifically false or uninformed things, he will bring Christianity into disrepute; people will say that Christians are scientific ignoramuses and that Christianity makes one scientifically stupid. Thus, when scientifically educated people hear Ken Ham etc. talking about biology or geology, they think Christianity makes people stupid and they don't want to be Christian. There is no need for Christians to bring themselves into disrepute in *that* way. On the other hand, the principle that one must not look like a fool in the eyes of the world, or of the clever or educated, cannot be an absolute principle for Christians. Christians have to be willing to seem foolish where something at the heart of the religion is at stake. So if someone says that the earth is only 6,000 years old, and there is nothing *essential* to Christian faith about a young age for the earth, then any bad science the person cooks up to hang on to a 6,000-year-old earth will not only embarrass Christianity, but embarrass it *unnecessarily*. On the other hand, if someone says that evolution is an unguided process and that we are the product of chance rather than any divine design, a Christian must stand up and oppose that, even if in the eyes of the world his scientific arguments seem ridiculous. (Of course, there are good and lousy scientific arguments to use against "chance evolution"; I'm assuming that the Christian in question will avoid the lousy ones and use the good ones.) So if, for example, it were a condition of employment in the biology Department at Harvard University that one accept an ancient earth, I would say that a Christian would be foolish to use bad arguments for a young earth and lose the job; the age of the earth is not central to the message of Christianity. On the other hand, if Harvard insisted on a statement of faith that evolution is an unguided process and that man was just a cosmic freak, then the Christian should oppose that even if it means losing the job, because God's sovereignty and providence and design are central to Christian faith. And he should oppose it even if the Harvard faculty ridicule his arguments as "bad science." Of course, he should do his best to make sure his arguments are good science. That is why ID is superior to the old Creation Science of the 1960s and 1970s. Creation Science often employed outright bad science (i.e., its proponents were ignorant of science in many cases), and sometimes it even employed dishonest science (suppressed contrary evidence, etc.). What Dembski, Behe, etc. have tried to do is employ only good science, and honest science, in opposing neo-Darwinism. I don't think either Augustine or Aquinas would object to that. I think they would object to Ken Ham. Of course, one can argue that this or that scientific argument of Behe or Dembski is inadequate, and that's fine. But that's different from saying that these guys are ignoramuses with no training, or from saying that these guys are being deliberately dishonest in order to rescue the Bible -- which was often the problem with Creation Science. But what has this got to do with rhampton7 and his lack of concern over Catholic TEs who apparently deny the Resurrection? And why do you call yourself "Mung"?Timaeus
September 26, 2014
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Timaeus, Aquinas agreed with Augustine that we ought not appear as fools to the unbeliever. He obviously thought that Biblical interpretation ought to be informed rather than dogmatic. Do you agree?Mung
September 26, 2014
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Speaking of Catholic theologians, anyone else here a fan of Hans Kung?Mung
September 26, 2014
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Thanks, Silver Asiatic. The difficulty with so many (not all) TEs is that they prefer to keep their theological commitments as vague as possible. There is a sort of general affirmation that God is behind everything, but precisely because the affirmation is so general it is impossible to tell if it really means anything. So when they say God can be behind even ontologically random events (as rhampton seems to believe) one cannot tell whether they actually think God does anything beyond sustain the laws of nature, or whether their declaration that God is behind everything is merely a pious nod which then allows them to get on with a basically secular and godless interpretation of nature. One gets the impression that if rhampton were a scientist (which from his discussions, I would guess he is not), he would do science exactly the way Dawkins and Weinberg and Krauss do it, and that the only difference is that he would add "but as a Catholic I also believe that God is in there somehow, in some mysterious way we can't fathom." But that addition is a private and gratuitous add-on. The nod to Haught, the unwillingness to comment on Haught's views on the resurrection, and the general avoidance of discussions of the meaning of Biblical texts, or even of those parts of Aquinas which are clearly inspired by Biblical texts rather than by the metaphysics of so-called "classic theism," suggests that rhampton, like so many TEs, starts from the assumption that consensus science is true and then allows himself only the Christian theology that consensus science permits. But we can't tell, in the end, what theological views rhampton has, because he doesn't hold forth. In that he is like the majority of TE writers, Catholic or Protestant. A strong-sounding *general* statement of faith in Jesus or faith in the Bible or faith in Catholicism is offered, but it can rarely be pinned down to anything specific. How different this is from the faith of Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, etc., or even from the theistic evolutionists of Darwin's day. This is one of the disadvantages of the internet. When one's theological conversations had to be held in person, when one could not hide behind a screen name but had to appear live -- usually in one's own home community where one's religious behavior, ethical behavior, etc. were well-known, or in an academic community where one's books and articles on religious matters were on record and were in the minds of those listening -- it was harder to be evasive. To look a man straight in the eye and answer his honest questions evasively is difficult; one's body-language, tones of voice, etc. give one away if one is being insincere or deliberately equivocal. But on the internet all that can be concealed; where one is coming from can be strategically kept secret. This gives the least courageous religious people the advantage over the most courageous religious people in internet debate. And rhampton appears to like it that way. We won't hear what he has to say about Haught, and we won't get from him any definition of what a TE is, and we will never hear from him which TEs he agrees with and doesn't agree with, and why. He does not seem to have the intestinal fortitude to put his theology and personal religion on the line to see if they can be defended. He is content to sneer at ID people for bad science and bad theology (having no visible intellectual accomplishment in either of those areas himself) while remaining immune from the detailed inspection to which he subjects the religious and scientific views of Dembski, Behe, etc.Timaeus
September 26, 2014
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Timaeus #49 - great insights, and very informative. Thanks. It is kind of funny but I also sense that Jerry Coyne doesn't like the liberal-compromises in religion but he expects (and maybe respects?) adherence to what the faith actually teaches. He knows quite well when religious teachings are caving in -- and this means it's really science that is the teacher of all truth, with religion as the disciple.
But then, a liberal theologian teaching in a Catholic university has to be obscure, because Catholic truth by its nature is not going to be friendly to liberal thought. Liberal thought has to disguise itself to look mostly traditional, or the liberal professor of theology will be fired.
So true.Silver Asiatic
September 25, 2014
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Barry should speak to someone who is an acknowledged “expert” on the topic, since he wants a public discussion of what TEs, collectively, truly believe. And feel free to offer a suggestion, if you have one, of a TE with the theological weight to hold up his/her side of the conversation.
Ok, that's reasonable. I was just wondering what your view was and/or if you'd contribute something on the TE side. You seem to have very strong views on this, but you haven't shared them. I don't mean that as an attack against you, but just an interest in learning your views on the discussion. Personally, I find the TE position to be almost impossible to defend - although most of my Catholic friends (and some Protestant friends) hold it. ID is a lot stronger, although it comes with its own risks. I think most TE's already accept the core-concepts of ID but don't want to acknowledge that.Silver Asiatic
September 25, 2014
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I see that rhampton continues to chicken out. He won't define the term he is tossing around, "TE." He won't discuss the theology of the man he recommended as a "real TE," John Haught. He has been informed of the possible and even likely unorthodoxy of Haught regarding the Resurrection (and by extension other things), but doesn't seem to care. But then, what else should we expect from rhampton? He fiercely defended Aquinas as compatible with Darwinian evolution for a long time, but eventually, when confronted by clear texts of Aquinas that were incompatible with Darwinian views on origins, suddenly changed his tune to (I paraphrase) "the Church has progressed since Aquinas." I guess that Haught is part of that "progress." Jerry Coyne has some wonderful comments on Haught. As always, I disagree with Jerry Coyne's materialism and atheism, but find him refreshingly clear where liberal theologians (Catholic and Protestant) are obscure. But then, a liberal theologian teaching in a Catholic university has to be obscure, because Catholic truth by its nature is not going to be friendly to liberal thought. Liberal thought has to disguise itself to look mostly traditional, or the liberal professor of theology will be fired. And this is basically the problem of the modern academic world of theology almost everywhere: it's jam-packed with liberals, taking salaries from institutions founded when Christians held to rigorous beliefs, so that they can teach the young that those beliefs are backwards and evil and should be replaced by feminism and secular humanism. One wonders how some of them can sleep at night. But then, if they have stopped believing that the God of their childhood tradition exists, and therefore that there is no personal judge they will one day have to answer to, but only a sort of formless "ground of being," and if they have come to think that the goal of humanity is "religionless faith" (i.e., secular humanism with a sort of mystical veneer), I suppose they think the ends justify the means, and that they are right to take money donated to their colleges by pious, conservative old ladies and gentlemen and use it for the great humanist cause. Who are your modern theological models, rhampton? Hans Kung? Teilhard de Chardin? Jack Haught? Gregory Baum? Karen Armstrong? John Dominic Crossan? Do let us know.Timaeus
September 25, 2014
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rhampton: I see that, as usual, you are ducking my questions. Regarding Barry's conversation, I would say: Of course it is better to have a conversation with a real person than with an imaginary person. But conversations can be set up for didactic purposes. The device is as old as the hills: Plato, Cicero, Galileo, etc. In such cases, it is not important whether a real person is being represented; the character in question represents a broad type or position. What Barry is doing is concocting a "generic TE" for the purpose of making a few points about common TE logic. And in fact, I've seen almost every step in his conversation taken, at one time or another, by some TE, and many of the responses I've seen scores of times in TE literature. Overall, his portrait is not unfair, given his purpose. Of course "real TEs" -- a term which you cravenly refuse to define -- don't come here. They are invited, but they don't come. (Except for Ted Davis, who has engaged constructively here more than once.) So it's not surprising that the fictional dialogue device would be used. rhampton, I'm quite willing to debate with any "real TE" in the world that you can get to come here. It would especially be fun to talk -- in your presence -- with Haught about the Resurrection, and hear what you had to say in response to him. We already know that you approve of modern Catholic theologians who break with traditional Catholic thinking (e.g., Aquinas) on creation; maybe you approve of modern Catholic theologians who break with traditional Catholic thinking on the Resurrection as well.Timaeus
September 24, 2014
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Silver Asiatic, Remember, the point is: "I have put words in the TE’s mouth based on my understanding of what he would in fact say." Barry should speak to someone who is an acknowledged "expert" on the topic, since he wants a public discussion of what TEs, collectively, truly believe. And feel free to offer a suggestion, if you have one, of a TE with the theological weight to hold up his/her side of the conversation.rhampton7
September 23, 2014
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rhampton7 I think you're dodging some very interesting questions that would make a good discussion. But if the point is that a "real TE" is merely a living one, then I guess any will do and we wouldn't need John Haught. Would you be a good candidate?Silver Asiatic
September 23, 2014
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rhampton: If all you meant was that Barry should engage with a real TE rather than an imaginary one, you could have said just that, mentioning no examples. But your specification of Jack Haught, accompanied by a link, drew attention, naturally enough, to Jack Haught's particular version of TE, and thus created the impression that many other so-called TEs (unnamed) weren't "real" TEs. So if you weren't trying to invoke the particular views of Haught, you weren't being an effective writer. Anyhow, my question still stands: what is your definition of a TE? What beliefs, doctrines, teachings, affirmations, etc. are sufficient to constitute someone a TE? And by the way, what is your opinion of the theology of Jack Haught, especially regarding the resurrection of Jesus? Are his views consistent with the teaching of the Church of Rome?Timaeus
September 23, 2014
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Timaeus, I wouldn't mind Barry Arrington choosing to converse with a TE other than John F. Haught. Any authentic (living, breathing) TE is much preferable to "conversing" with an imaginary person.rhampton7
September 23, 2014
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rhampton7: How can I answer the question whether anyone is an "authentic TE" when you won't tell me what your definition of "TE" is, and give me some idea of how one discriminates between an "authentic" TE and a "fake" TE? What is a TE, according to you, rhampton7? I find it interesting that the "authentic TE" that you chose is one who, if several reports are correct, holds to views that not only the current Roman Church would repudiate, but the Church in the days of your beloved Aquinas as well. Are orthodox Catholic TEs so hard to find, that the only example you could come up with on short notice was an unorthodox one? Or do you just really like the theology of Jack Haught?Timaeus
September 22, 2014
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Timaeus, I really don't care if John F. Haught gets your seal of approval as an authentic Catholic. Do you believe he is an authentic TE? If you answer yes, then my suggestion remains valid with respect to "having a conversation with a real TE" and John F. Haught.rhampton7
September 22, 2014
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rhampton7: Are you going to respond to the question about Jack Haught? Or shall we assume that you have silently retracted your example with a red face? Or shall we assume that you endorse Jack Haught's version of Roman Catholic theology? The latter would explain a lot about your motivations.Timaeus
September 22, 2014
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StephenB, actually my intent was to make sure people were all talking about the same person. I don't have a dog in the fight. :)Mung
September 21, 2014
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StephenB: Well, if Haught teaches at a place named "Woodstock" he probably is a liberal. :-)Timaeus
September 21, 2014
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