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A 30-year old letter to the editor of the Purdue Exponent

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I was a visiting assistant professor (math/CS) at Purdue University in 1978-79, when I responded to a letter in the Purdue student newspaper (the Exponent), which compared those who doubt Darwin to “flat earthers”, as follows:

“Last year I surveyed the literature on evolution in the biology library of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and found Olan Hyndman’s The Origin of Life and the Evolution of Living Things in which he calls the neo-Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection `the most irrational and illogical explanation of natural phenomenon extant’ and proposes an alternative theory; Rene Dubos’ The Torch of Life in which he says `[The neo-Darwinian theory’s] real strength is that however implausible it may appear to its opponents they do not have a more plausible one to offer in its place’; and Jean Rostand’s A Biologist’s View in which he says that the variations which made up evolution must have been `creative and not random.’ Rostand, who elsewhere has called the neo-Darwinian theory a `fairy tale for adults,’ attributes this creativeness to the genes themselves, and says `quite a number of biologists do, in fact, fall back on these hypothetical variations to explain the major steps of evolution.’…I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.”

To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? That is the only difference between Jean Rostand’s theory and the theory of intelligent design. Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”, in fact, it could be easily argued that Rostand—though an atheist–was himself an ID proponent. But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and “not science” to attribute creativeness to another part?

PostScript—in light of some comments below, let me make it clear that the issue being discussed is NOT whether or not the evidence supports any of these ideas, but whether they can be dismissed a priori as “not science”, before looking at the evidence. Darwinism is obviously a scientific theory, whether it is good science is another question. If Rostand’s theory is accepted as scientific, and housed in the biology library of a National Lab, there seems to be no reason to reject ID as “not science”, before looking at the evidence, as most scientists today still do. And if it is scientific to attribute creativity to the brain, how can it be “unscientific” to attribute creativity to the genes, as Rostand does? Whether the evidence supports Rostand’s theory is a completely separate issue.

Comments
Clive, a second response to your
The mind is there, the brain is still developing, because it is just a newborn.
Where is the "there" that the mind is? There's an immaterial mind in a physical location?David Kellogg
July 8, 2009
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Clive,
The mind is there, the brain is still developing, because it is just a newborn.
Well, that's a nice assertion, but it's only that. An assertion more in line with the evidence is that the brain develops in the body and in interaction with the body's environment, and that these developmental interactions provide contexts in which mental activity can emerge and finally be classified as what we call "a mind." You can say that "mind" was there all along, but it's hard to find evidence for it.David Kellogg
July 8, 2009
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kairosfocus:
In short, emergence in the case of temperature is analytically accountable; in the case of mind as many materialists suggest “emergence”, it is a synonym for: Poof, lucky noise, magic!
It's certainly true that there is no theoretical gap between molecular behavior and temperature measurements, although I suspect there is an empirical gap. That is, I doubt that anyone has empirically confirmed that measuring the velocities of a mole of molecules and calculating the temperature therefrom yields the same result as a thermometer. But it is also uncontroversially true that there are theoretical gaps elsewhere. Take the Mandelbrot set, which is chock-full of complex high-level properties that haven't been explained in terms of the set's low-level definition. Nobody finds it necessary to mysticize this gap -- we have no doubt that the higher level is reducible to the lower, but it's difficult to do so. We call that emergence, not by way of explanation, but as a convenient label. Likewise, there is a theoretical gap between neural activity and consciousness. Bridging that gap may require positing something so foreign to our experience that we would label it immaterial, or it may be completely intractable. But one thing is for sure, the labels immaterial and emergence have little or no explanatory power by themselves. Which is not to say that the concept of emergence is unhelpful. I personally think it captures quite well, for instance, the qualities of some artificial life systems.R0b
July 8, 2009
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David Kellogg, ------"But it’s unclear to me that a newborn baby has a “mind” at all, in the sense of a coherent thinking self, much less “free will.” The mind is there, the brain is still developing, because it is just a newborn.Clive Hayden
July 8, 2009
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Heck your position can’t even muster a testable hypothesis. Lenoxus:
Well, it can, but then the anti-evolution response is “That doesn’t count as evolution.” Or “that’s just a mosaic form.” Or “nested hierarchies have nothing to do with evolution”
1- Evolution does not have a direction 2- Nested hierarchies demand a direction of additive and immutable defining characteristics 3- Transitional forms would violate the distinct categories required by nested hierarchies just by their very nature Am I typing to fast? Are you getting any of that? I also took the time to explain what is being debated. Biological Evolution, what is being debated Then all you have to do is produce a testable hypothesis.Joseph
July 8, 2009
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Minor follow-up: when do we have what we call "minds"? Before birth? At birth? At birth we respond to certain stimuli and search instinctively for comforts: food, warmth, dryness. We could call such searching "mental activity." But it's unclear to me that a newborn baby has a "mind" at all, in the sense of a coherent thinking self, much less "free will." What we call "mind" and "free will" arise later in a complex set of interactions between biology and environment. In most people they do emerge without problem, in the same way that most babies eventually learn to walk. But babies aren't born walking.David Kellogg
July 8, 2009
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DATCG, I didn't respond to your reply because I don't see how what you call Will can be studied scientifically. My analogy is weak, but so is every analogy we make for mental activity, including "the mind" itself. When we say the "mind" does something (or the "will," fine) we're assuming the existence of the mind. That's why I referred to "mental activity" rather than "the mind." "The mind" as immaterial object or what have you may be the conclusion of an argument, but I prefer not to make it a premise.David Kellogg
July 8, 2009
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David 116, You responded only in apology for misreading my tone. Why didn't you answer regarding your analogy as a failure in comparison to the mind? I gave you several reasons why your analogy fails. Kairos summed up in shorter form quite well. Please address the issue at hand regarding your analogy. Explain why you think my position is wrong about the analogy and back up why you think it is appropriate. This way, maybe we can talk substance. Maybe you have a better analogy to put forward. By your non-answer to my response, at this point I think you simply do not have a rebuttal to my objection.DATCG
July 8, 2009
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kairosfocus, you refer to my "drive-by attack on "emergence,'" but you [101] introduced the term -- in quotes no less, and referring to me, though I did not use it! -- in an attack on the concept. Try not to suggest I was using terms I didn't. One might think you were assembling a straw man.David Kellogg
July 8, 2009
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When a Darwinist gets into trouble on how something happened, they have some magic incantations that they mutter that are signals to the chosen ones that all is well. When someone questions the Just So Story, the Sorcerer is alway ready. The low level spell is "it evolved." When that doesn't work, the next level of awe is "it was selected." When that doesn't work, The Sorcerer pulls out the nearly always reliable "It was exapted." These are usually enough to turn the glazed over frightened trance of a Darwinist into a smirk of superiority. But for when the situation calls for the most powerful of all anti ID potions, the Sorcerer will pull out the most mesmerizing of all spells and say with disdain, "It emerged." We need no further explanation, it emerged and all is well again in Darwinian Land. And they triumphantly say this is how science works in the real world. God, is this Darwinism powerful stuff. That is why I like the Disney metaphor. Once upon a time....as their just so stories begin.jerry
July 8, 2009
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Heck your position can’t even muster a testable hypothesis.
Well, it can, but then the anti-evolution response is "That doesn't count as evolution." Or "that's just a mosaic form." Or "nested hierarchies have nothing to do with evolution". Whereas the status of observed creation, testability-wise is…? Are there any circumstances where you can predict when or where design will occur, or when or where we will find fossil evidence of past design bridging a gap? Or is it all ex post facto? Just wondering.Lenoxus
July 8, 2009
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David Kellogg:
Compared to the vagueness (intentional or no) in design, agency, CSI, FSCI, active information, irreducible complexity, etc. etc.?
1- Those terms are only vague to the willfully ignorant 2 - Those ID terms are less vague than anything your position has to offer. Heck your position can't even muster a testable hypothesis.Joseph
July 8, 2009
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PaulBurnett, "(And “Look what you made me do!” would not pass the Nuremburg test as an excuse.)" You're right, but that was where men were critical of men. The scenario that you paint is only applicable when the 'other' gods take this god to task for what he has done ... like Odin and Ve taking on Vili for his actions. The Christian God doesn't fit this scenario.AussieID
July 7, 2009
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Folks: Mr Kellogg's first drive-by attack on "emergence" having failed [he did not seem to know just how physicists -- even humble applied ones -- can show how Temperature emerges from microscopic phenomena (and pressure etc, BTW . . . )], he now goes on to try to assert that concepts linked to design theory are "vague." (A sort of assertion of epistemic failure equivalency . . . ) All of this in a context where there is a glossary and a weak objections corrective that discuss, point by point, with empirical exemplars and history of ideas references, the relevant concepts. Let us see if he will explain to us how as an example of functionally specific, complex information, a string of 143+ ASCII characters in English is, or how this differs fundamentally from the DNA code string for a protein of say 400 AA residues. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 7, 2009
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Animals do appreciate music. My ex's dog used to go into a reverie whenever I played a certain piece on the guitar. For some reason that dog got despondent at times and if I played that for her she'd snap out of it.Davem
July 7, 2009
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Paul Burnett: Thank you for your post. You wrote:
Or look at it from the viewpoint of an evolution-believing theist: Since life began on earth, about 99.99+ per cent of all species that have ever evolved have become extinct. Would that level of death define "good" or "non-good"?
I'd like to make a few short comments. 1. Why do you care so much about species anyway, given that no-one views them as eternal and immutable "glassy essences" any more, as some of the Greek philosophers did? What makes species ethically sacred, and why should a good God be committed to their survival? 2. Species don't suffer. Animals do. If there is a theological problem here, it is not the fact that most species have become extinct, but rather the fact that 100% of all the animals that have ever lived either have already died or will die. 3. Where do you get your "99.99+ per cent" figure from? I know that it is often cited in the literature, but I have yet to see any solid evidence for it. I understand that Dr. Arthur Jones has publicly called the figure into question (his videos on evolution are accessible on Youtube). I have yet to see a reply from anyone on this point. 4. Does the death of a bacterium, a plant or a non-sentient animal constitute a theological problem for God's goodness, in your opinion?vjtorley
July 7, 2009
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Mr Bornagain77, I followed the link to listen to the music you recommended so highly. We do seem to have a special place for music in us!Nakashima
July 7, 2009
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BA77, what about the "spirit of birds"? Music appreciation (in the form of dancing at least) is apparently not limited to humans.David Kellogg
July 7, 2009
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This like some others (not all) posts is displayed black when I open it in Firefox (newest version). This wasn't the case when it was published. It's still OK in Explorer 8. DO other people experience the same?sparc
July 7, 2009
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I feel that music is knockout proof of the "spirit of man". In fact I feel that this song absolute proof of Christ in these peoples lives: http://connect.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=0c9ee91e5674882898ff Beholding your beauty is all I long for To worship You Jesus with my soul's desire For this very heart you've shaped for your pleasure The purpose to lift your name high Hear and surrender in pure adoration I enter your courts with an offering of praise I am Your servant come to bring you glory As is fit for the work of your hands Chorus: Now unto the lamb who sits on the throne Be glory and honor and praise All of creation resounds with the song Worship and praise him the Lord of Lords Verse 2: The spirit now living and dwelling within me Keep my eyes fixed ever upon Jesus' face Let not the things of this world ever sway me I'll run 'till I finish the race Chorus 2: Singing unto the lamb who sits on the throne Be glory and honor and praise All of creation resounds with the song Worship and praise the Lord Now unto the lamb who sits on the throne Be glory and honor and praise All of eternity echoes the song Worship and praise him the Lord of Lords Bridge: Holy Lord You are Holy Jesus Christ is the Lord Chorus 3: Now unto the lamb who sits on the throne Be glory and honor and praise Call all the saints to join in the song Worship and praise him the Lord of Lords Ending: Lord of Lords Lord of Lords Lord of Lordsbornagain77
July 7, 2009
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Clive, you write,
I feel like I know you, we’ve conversed so often, that is, until I read your comments over at AtBC, then it strikes me that you’re wearing a mask here.
I'm the same guy. My vocabulary is a bit wilder over there, as it's a rather freewheeling forum.David Kellogg
July 7, 2009
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Would that level of death define “good” or “non-good”? LNC problem?Nakashima
July 7, 2009
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I wish someone would add a new post, Grnville's has been at the top for two days, this one isn’t worth that much exposure. Denyse, Bill, somebody…post something new and more interesting!sparc
July 7, 2009
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PaulBurnett, ------"The true-believer creationist theist’s God committed mass genocide on a geological scale a few thousand years ago, drowning all land animals except a few individual specimens on one wooden boat. Does that planetary mass murder define “good” or “non-good”?" Good.Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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David Kellogg, ------"Compared to the vagueness (intentional or no) in design, agency, CSI, FSCI, active information, irreducible complexity, etc. etc.?" No. "Emergence" is vague without being compared to anything. It's vague on its own. It's, as you would say, "unhelpful."Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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Lenoxus (#120) wrote: "For the theist, God is good because that is the definition of the nature of God, and there cannot possibly be a non-good God. The true-believer creationist theist's God committed mass genocide on a geological scale a few thousand years ago, drowning all land animals except a few individual specimens on one wooden boat. Does that planetary mass murder define "good" or "non-good"? (And "Look what you made me do!" would not pass the Nuremburg test as an excuse.) Or look at it from the viewpoint of an evolution-believing theist: Since life began on earth, about 99.99+ per cent of all species that have ever evolved have become extinct. Would that level of death define "good" or "non-good"?PaulBurnett
July 7, 2009
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Mapou:
I think that Stephen Wiltshire’s photographic memory is one of the biggest problems for materialists because it can be shown that the brain does not contain enough neurons and synapses to store all this information. Stephen can accurately draw the same scene using many different perspectives, recording times and scales.
Some might argue that his brain doesn't have to "contain" all those perspectives and scales — just one amazingly precise image. And while it is certainly marvelous that all that can be recalled, consider the sheer amount of data one collects over a lifetime, much of it seemingly "lost" until just the right scent or sound brings it all back. What savants seem to be able to do is consolidate the use of that data (or perhaps have that data involuntarily consolidated), sometimes at the cost of certain social functions that have also been connected to the brain. All that said, I still believe in the metaphysical mind, even as it can be "reduced" to neurons. And I can't help but note that there has yet to be a single human mind observed sans brain. Not one cadaver has been opened by medical students to reveal literally no brain, nor has an examined live brain gives off zero electromagnetic signals while still apparently functioning — possibilities which a purely immaterial explanation of mind ought to have no problem with. I think?Lenoxus
July 7, 2009
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Having written all that, I realized I only addressed morality at most, and you also asked about those other things I mentioned. I'll just rattle 'em off: Love obviously exists, and it is a very subjective experience — yet its existence is objective — and we often can't 'decide' what we want our love to do, as hundreds of pop songs attest. As for beauty, I find that as subjective as most people do — eye of the beholder and all that. If I had the time/energy, I could really go off on my feelings about beauty and its complexities, but I'll just direct attention to a book The Beauty Problem, that has inspired most of my opinions on the subject. It's available for a free download as a PDF here.Lenoxus
July 7, 2009
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SteveB:
Lenoxus, Thanks for the post–I enjoyed reading it. A follow-up question: Who gets to define what concepts like love, beauty, morality and worth mean?
Oh, that's simple — I do! LOL, in seriousness, here are two answers to that question. The first is this review of David Aikman's book The Delusion of Disbelief. Specifically, this excerpt from it: Tied up with this is an utter incomprehension [for David Aikman] at the thought of objective moral values. Since atheists think there’s no God for morality to be contingent on, obviously they must think morality is contingent on human opinion, right? At one point, Aikman goes so far as to suggest atheists are committed to thinking morality would have to be contingent something like a poll of college professors! (p. 122) But the entire point of thinking morality can’t be contingent on God’s whims is that it can’t be contingent on anybody’s whims. A second answer comes from someone I ordinarily disagree with. I think the points made are good, as in this excerpt, even if they're made a little snottily (there's not need to accuse anyone of a "conceptual vacuum", Ayn): The concept of objectivity contains the reason why the question "Who decides what is right or wrong?" is wrong. Nobody "decides." Nature does not decide -- it merely is; man does not decide, in issues of knowledge, he merely observes that which is. A way I would personally phrase that is that morality is subjectively objective. (It's not Objectivist, though.) The experience of pain, for example, is subjective, but the fact that one is experiencing it is objective, and the "wrongness" of suffering is likewise objective. In my view, there can be no suffering which does not have the quality of wrongness, except for when it leads to an ultimate reduction of suffering. (I'm sure a decent moral philosopher could derail that with a train-tracks thought problem, but those can derail almost any moral position.) Nonetheless, we don't always have a straightforward path to which actions will cause or reduce suffering, which is why moral dilemmas exist. Determining how to stop a terrorist attack is subjective, but the wrongness of terrorist attacks is objective, due to the resultant suffering. Of course my whole "suffering is bad is suffering" line is circular, but no more so than the accounting of things is for the theist. For the theist, God is good because that is the definition of the nature of God, and there cannot possibly be a non-good God. I respect that deeply even as I find it unnecessary. :)Lenoxus
July 7, 2009
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bornagain77 @118: I think that Stephen Wiltshire's photographic memory is one of the biggest problems for materialists because it can be shown that the brain does not contain enough neurons and synapses to store all this information. Stephen can accurately draw the same scene using many different perspectives, recording times and scales. Having said that, I don't think that this will convince the deniers. The believer will need to come up with a knock-out punch to win this fight because the opponent is resourceful, strong and willing to go the distance. This is true even if we think they don't play fair. Who said the fight had to be fair anyway?Mapou
July 7, 2009
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