Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A 30-year old letter to the editor of the Purdue Exponent

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I was a visiting assistant professor (math/CS) at Purdue University in 1978-79, when I responded to a letter in the Purdue student newspaper (the Exponent), which compared those who doubt Darwin to “flat earthers”, as follows:

“Last year I surveyed the literature on evolution in the biology library of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and found Olan Hyndman’s The Origin of Life and the Evolution of Living Things in which he calls the neo-Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection `the most irrational and illogical explanation of natural phenomenon extant’ and proposes an alternative theory; Rene Dubos’ The Torch of Life in which he says `[The neo-Darwinian theory’s] real strength is that however implausible it may appear to its opponents they do not have a more plausible one to offer in its place’; and Jean Rostand’s A Biologist’s View in which he says that the variations which made up evolution must have been `creative and not random.’ Rostand, who elsewhere has called the neo-Darwinian theory a `fairy tale for adults,’ attributes this creativeness to the genes themselves, and says `quite a number of biologists do, in fact, fall back on these hypothetical variations to explain the major steps of evolution.’…I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.”

To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? That is the only difference between Jean Rostand’s theory and the theory of intelligent design. Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”, in fact, it could be easily argued that Rostand—though an atheist–was himself an ID proponent. But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and “not science” to attribute creativeness to another part?

PostScript—in light of some comments below, let me make it clear that the issue being discussed is NOT whether or not the evidence supports any of these ideas, but whether they can be dismissed a priori as “not science”, before looking at the evidence. Darwinism is obviously a scientific theory, whether it is good science is another question. If Rostand’s theory is accepted as scientific, and housed in the biology library of a National Lab, there seems to be no reason to reject ID as “not science”, before looking at the evidence, as most scientists today still do. And if it is scientific to attribute creativity to the brain, how can it be “unscientific” to attribute creativity to the genes, as Rostand does? Whether the evidence supports Rostand’s theory is a completely separate issue.

Comments
BTW are the experiments with fruit flies in which the fruit fly developed an extra pair of wings also evidence for macroevolution? How about the fruit fly with a leg for an antennae? If we go by the absurd claims of evolutionists then both would be evidence for macroevolution.Joseph
July 12, 2009
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ohyes- Two simultaneous and specified mutations occurring naturally? Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution Not likely. However perhaps someone could plant thousands or even millions of these plants and see what happens.Joseph
July 12, 2009
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joseph:
IOW nothing natural about the process.
i am not a scientist, but isn't that how all experiment are carried out? do you think this process could not have happened naturally?ohyes
July 12, 2009
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Melzer S, Lens F, Gennen J, Vanneste S, Rohde A, Beeckman T. 2008. Flowering-time genes modulate meristem determinacy and growth form in Arabidopsis thaliana. Nature Genetics, published online: 9 November 2008- Art Hunt sez the following:
Melzer et al. constructed double mutants deficient in the expression of these two proteins, with the intent of understanding the physiological significance of interactions between these two proteins, associations discovered using the so-called yeast two-hybrid assay.
IOW nothing natural about the process.Joseph
July 11, 2009
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1- The transitionals exist in the minds of those who need them 2- There isn't any genetic evidence to demonstrate the transformations are possible 3- The plant thing has been explained. I can't help it if you refuse to understand the explanation.Joseph
July 11, 2009
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Nakashima — that's fine, I think I might actually like it better! On another website, people have called me "Leno" for short (and I'm not much of a Jay Leno fan); "Leono" sounds cooler… :)Lenoxus
July 11, 2009
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Please excuse me for misspelling your name!Nakashima
July 11, 2009
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Mr Leonoxus, What is really amusing is that when you _start_ with the genetic evidence, such as the switch to woody perennial from annual in a plant, then the discussion becomes about something else. But you are correct, Mr Joseph's default comeback to fossil evidence is a demand for genetic evidence of the same thing.Nakashima
July 11, 2009
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Joseph:
What is the genetic data which demonstrates such a transition- from fish to tetrapod- is even possible?
Something just occurred to me in reading this. It's this: when it comes to debates, evolution's curse is its details. The theory is so immensely detailed in terms of evidence that there's always another pathway to attack it on. One it's been demonstrated beyond a doubt that the Tiktaalik fossil is intermediary, you can ask for the genetic evidence (never mind, of course, that obviously no extinct fishapod specimen has surviving DNA). My own brief web-research prompted by that question suggests that there are plenty of studies analyzing the genetic divergence between fish and tetrapods. (You'll like this one, as it relates to front-loading.) No studies, however, appear to examine the question of whether the transition is "possible". This is likely because very few people are raising the question. The question is kind of silly, given the fossil evidence of intermediaries, indicating that such a transition almost certainly happened. (Not to mention the morphological similarities between the relevant limbs, etc.) The only real question at this point is, which environmental factors spurred the selection for these limbs? There are plenty of different hypotheses out there, and perhaps one of them, thanks to the advantage of evidence, will win out in our lifetimes. Compare this to the following question: What is the data which demonstrates such a transition- from fish to tetrapod- is even possible for the designer to bring about? I'm being silly, because we all know that anything is possible for the designer. This saves you, I think, from the obligation of having to give an answer. I could very well ask that same question of every major evolutionary transition, but that would be wasting time.
you guys seem to think that science is done via imagination and promissory notes.
Whereas intelligent design…?Lenoxus
July 11, 2009
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What is the genetic data which demonstrates such a transition- from fish to tetrapod- is even possible? Also the vast majority (>95%) of the fossil record is of marine inverts- which is to be expected given what we know about the fossilization process. Yet in that vast majority evidence for universal common descent is missing. IOW you guys seem to think that science is done via imagination and promissory notes.Joseph
July 11, 2009
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Mr Leonoxus, Ah, but Nakashima, we still haven’t found those fossils by today, July 10, 2009. Time’s up! (Not to mention that whatever those paleontologists say, 90% of organisms fossilize. They do, I swear.) I thought we had until 2012? I'd better reset my secret decoder ring. :)Nakashima
July 10, 2009
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DATCG:
For all we know, Tiktaalik may go the way of the Coelacanth. A living version may appear.
Have you ever heard the question "why are there still monkeys?" One answer that biologists give is that humans did not descend from the monkeys we see today, but from other primates. I think there's a better, more succinct way of putting it: evolution does not require that descendant species "replace" their ancestors. Some descendants of Tiktaalik gradually adapted to life on land, and some didn't. Species don't come to unanimous decisions about what environments to remain in. It's true that if some Tiktaaliks remained in the water, they probably would have changed a fair amount due to the usual drift. But that's not a guarantee — consider sharks, for instance. On top of all that, no one is saying that Tiktaalik is definitely an ancestor to modern tetrapods. In fact, it's more likely an "uncle", because the odds of hitting upon an exact ancestor in one particular line of descent are pretty low, so all we can do is describe the degree of closeness between any two species. What Tiktaalik does show is that such a transition is possible. Even if it's a weird "mosaic" made by the designer, Tiktaalik shows what an intermediary would look like, and that it's therefore possible. The ID-sans-UCD hypothesis has never explained the designer's motive in making such intermediaries. Nakashima:
How many species are there in the fish-tetrapod transition? let’s say there 10 species in that swampy niche 385 million years ago. They each last 10 million years and branch into two new species. So each starting species becomes two and then four during the twenty million years Shubin was looking at. That is (1+2+4)*10=70. So the first guess is 70, but then you have to cut that down by how many will leave any fossils at all, in places on or near the surface of the Earth today. I personally would be happy to find even 10% of those possible species, so if we eventually found 7 fossils of distinct species, I’d think we were doing fine.
Ah, but Nakashima, we still haven't found those fossils by today, July 10, 2009. Time's up! (Not to mention that whatever those paleontologists say, 90% of organisms fossilize. They do, I swear.)Lenoxus
July 10, 2009
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Thank you sparc, that is the plan anyway...Joseph
July 10, 2009
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Joeph I hope you will recover soon.sparc
July 9, 2009
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Mr DATCG, Thank you for your fine compliments. I appreciate having fine people to talk with, also. And a sense of humor, especially about yourself, is essential. It is difficult to know what a walking catfish or Coelocanth is transitional to. We'll have to wait several million years to find out! And it is certailnly possible that it would be transitional to something very similar, ne? If there is no strong selection pressure, there is no change in allele frquencies. I see you are very interested in the fragmentary and provisional nature of our knowledge, especially the fossil record. Science is so provisional! It should be the first lesson we teach children, before the specific fact patterns. There is an edge to our shared knowledge, which changes constantly. If anyone actually tried to make science a religion, it would cause a lot of anxiety for them. (For the view that religion is a search for certainty. For someone capable of seeing their religion as a source of personal challenge, I'm sure it would be different.) How many species are there in the fish-tetrapod transition? let's say there 10 species in that swampy niche 385 million years ago. They each last 10 million years and branch into two new species. So each starting species becomes two and then four during the twenty million years Shubin was looking at. That is (1+2+4)*10=70. So the first guess is 70, but then you have to cut that down by how many will leave any fossils at all, in places on or near the surface of the Earth today. I personally would be happy to find even 10% of those possible species, so if we eventually found 7 fossils of distinct species, I'd think we were doing fine. That is a complete amateur guess, of course. The number of species that take advantage of the chance to radiate into new niches on land at the end of the transition could be higher. I think your concern about whether any specific fossil species is actually a member of a direct lineal parent of a living species is misplaced. Not only are most species extinct, most extinct species have no living descendents. That is the flip side of LUCA/Eve/etc. It doesn't change the fact we can see characters in the fossil that bridge the space between an established niche and an open niche.Nakashima
July 9, 2009
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Mr Joseph, I think Wiki is fine for this level and topic. If you think it is wrong about Tiktaalik, please edit it.Nakashima
July 9, 2009
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Nakashima, and if others like to chime in: Lenoxus or David, Kahn, Speaking of transition fossils. How many transition fossils are calculated between a fish and a tetrapod? Shouldn't Shubin find thousands of Tiktaaliks? Or how many? Would you predict? 1? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? 100,000? even 1,000,000 million? How many transitional fossils do we have from Fish to Tetrapod? If I grant you for sake of this discussion - Tiktaalik is transitional? How many are there today? Gradual steps? How many transitional fossils should there be? If Darwin is correct. If Darwinist today are correct, gradualistic evolution is FACT, how many transitional fossils might be estimated between fish and tetrapod? I do not have the expertise to quantify it. But, surely there should be some statistics for numbers of transition fossils to be found. And based upon that evidence and other research, Shubin should be able to pinpoint millions of transitional fossils. Or, why am I wrong? How many transition fossils should there be - within reasonable guesstimations? Certainly there should; by definition of gradual steps of Darwinian philosophy, be multiple Cambrian Transition type Explosions all over the earth. Transitions exploding in size in comparison to either fish or tetrapods. Researchers like Shubin should be finding many thousand times more transitional fossils than any static forms like say, the Coelacanth fish. Don't you agree? If not, why not? Why is the record exactly opposite of Darwin's gradualism? Thanks, I'll check in later tonight.DATCG
July 9, 2009
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Nakashima, I enjoy your comments and admit your obvious experience and knowledge of the field(s) are far above me Sir. I say this with all sincerity and respect. I learn much from you here. As well as I like your sense of humor, quoting Wiki ;-) But, I'm curious do you think a walking catfish is a transitional form to tetrapods? What about the Coelacanth? It was once considered a transitiional fossil and used like Tiktaalik, until a fisherman caught the Fish in his net. I think Tiktaalik is similar to Dino-Bird theory because old bones were/are used to prop up both. Like Tiktaalik is used to prop up Fish to Tetrapod hypotheses. It could be an extinct branch unrelated to any transition period. The Coelacanth appeared one day as a living fossil in a fishermans net, detroying scientific claims. It was 1) not transitional, 2) not walking, 3) disrupted another TOL branch considered as fact. No matter how intelligent someone is in their respective fields of science(and I'm sure Shubin is among the best with sincere motives), this is still faith and belief in a theory. He seeks his assumptions and find them. Again, it easily might be a dead branch leading to extinction. How would Shubin, you or I know? We were not there to observe. History shows such guesstimates can be wrong. Based upon past failed fictional accounts it is just as likely or at least a "possibility" they're wrong this time too. For all we know, Tiktaalik may go the way of the Coelacanth. A living version may appear. Or, to emphasize again, it may be some strange species unlinked in the chain of gradualistic events. Then where will Shubin be? Where will Wiki be? As to actual discovery, you are aware this is not unusual, correct? That such a prediction and find does not add evidence to it being transitional. Essentially, we have assertions after people spent years roaming known former lake/swamp areas. So what. I'm not aware of anyone disagreeing that you can find fossils of fish, crocks, alligators, or any other type of new fossils in such areas. Nor is it a secret these areas exist, except maybe to the uninformed. Certainly trained researchers know where to look for fossils in swamp areas, lakes, oceans and other locations. This is not proof of transition or of evolution. It merely means we understand where possible fossils may be found today. Like any Dino-Bird fossilized reporting from the past, or to be more bluntly, like the Coelacanth failure, this is still only an assertion without observation. It is inference at best.DATCG
July 9, 2009
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sparc, Calm down. I just had major knee surgery last Tuesday and I am still in recovery mode. And even though it is obvious to me that there is software amongst the biological hardware- do you really think that molecules just assist other molecules to make other molecules?- trying to formulate ideas when I am living on pain-killers isn't going to happen.Joseph
July 9, 2009
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Nakashime-san, Don't use Wikipadia as a valid reference because it isn't.Joseph
July 9, 2009
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Lenoxus, What part of transcription, with its proof-reading, error-correction and editing, strikes you as being cobbled together via unguided processes? Add to the the process of translation- taking one macromolecule and creating another out of it- what part of that strikes you as being cobbled together via an accumulation of genetic accidents? This is what ID brings to the table- The view that living organisms are not reducible to matter and energy therefor we need to look in a new direction in order to understnad living organisms. The reductionist attitude has failed at every turn and it is time you step aside because it is clear you have no intention of supporting your position.Joseph
July 9, 2009
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David Kellogg, ------"Where is the “there” that the mind is? There’s an immaterial mind in a physical location?" Yes.Clive Hayden
July 9, 2009
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Mr DATCG, Tiktaalik? You consider this a valid transitional form? Why? Quoting the font of all truth, Wikipedia: Tiktaalik generally had the characteristics of a lobe-finned fish, but with front fins featuring arm-like skeletal structures more akin to a crocodile, including a shoulder, elbow, and wrist. 'nuf said. Now, I’m curious Mr. Nakashima. Do you consider Tiktaalik as factual as Dino-Bird? I think you are comparing a fossil and a theory. 200 years of failure is bad science. I'm not seeing the failure you refer to. After 200 years, Shubin finds Tiktaalik in exactly the spot that 200 years of evolution, geology and paleontology predict. No, definitely not seeing the failure. I wonder what the odds are of a tornado blowing through the Field Museum in Chicago, picking up Neil Shubin, carrying him to Ellesmere Island and dropping him next to Tiktaalik's skull sticking out of the ground. Let's calculate the expected length of time for Shubin, taking a random walk from his office in the Field Museum across the surface of the Earth, stopping every three feet and looking, to find a fossil between 360 and 380 million years old lying on the ground in front of him. Compare 5 years (the amount of time it actually took to find Tiktaalik) to this number. That ratio is the "failure of a bad science" ratio.Nakashima
July 9, 2009
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jerry:
As I said I have been here for 4 years and have read a lot of books promoting naturalistic evolution. And in none of these have I seen anything supporting the naturalistic hypothesis.
You might be surprised when I say this — heck, even I'm surprised. But I personally agree with you. There is NO EVIDENCE FOR THE NATURALISTIC HYPOTHESIS. But that's how it always would be, no matter what naturalistic universe we lived in. The only way we would "know" that naturalism accounted for every known phenomenon would be either if we knew how every known phenomenon worked at all times, or if we received a sign from On High (or whatever) that proclaimed naturalism (the second case would, of course, refute itself). There are some good reasons, which I'm sure you've heard before, why naturalism is the best default potition for science to take. The moment that indisputable, physical, non-"talky" evidence for the supernatural emerges, the debate — and the nature of science — will change completely. (By "talky", I mean more evidence than just philosophical claims, or abstract mathematical arguments that, at best, refute certain specific naturalistic hypotheses). All this is akin to the example I used of the simulation in the Matrix films. Right now, the evidence that we are in fact in a simulation seems limited to the mathematical and philosophical arguments of people like Nick Bostrom. There's no evidence I'm aware of that the Universe is not a simulation, but insufficient evidence to assume that it is, or that it is partially simulated, with the actually simulated portions accounting for currently unknown astronomical phenomena. (See what I did there?) So the reasonable default is to say that it is not. Since naturalism is a fundamentally "negative" position, it doesn't make sense to ask for evidence "for" it until you point to a specific example of something you believe naturalism can't do, such as the immune system.
” but I know at this point that it’s pointless, because there’s a traditional pre-existing set of ways any such evidence can be rejected by anti-evolutionists.” This is pre judging us and I do not think you want to do that. There is a whole range of people here and most will be willing to listen to any empirical evidence you have but as I said above, we have had evolutionary biologist fail to present relevant stuff.
Well, I generally take the "fail to present relevant stuff" part to mean that I have nothing to add that you haven't already heard and responded to before. I'm not saying that any IDers are being dishonest or ignorant in their interpretations of the evidence fore macro-evolution — just biased, the way that we're all biased for what we believe in. Notice that I also added that evolutionists have reflexive responses. By that I meant that we evolutionists are not always bothering to think when we respond to anti-evolutionist arguments.
And by the way sounding absolute on things is a technique I use because I know that such an attitude will get people mad and push them to do either of three things. 1) leave the debate in frustration, 2) make ad hominem attacks or 3) try hard to refute this arrogant IDiot. Obviously I prefer 3) and we occasionally get some interesting data but most often it is irrelevant to the debate.
While I may have brought God into this, I would never, ever stoop to the awful (in the sense of both indecency and unoriginality) word "IDiot". I still say "IDer" for brevity, but I assume it has no derogatory connotation. Though I am often sarcastic when it comes to defending the evidence for macroevolution, or defending my personal philosophy from charges of worthlessness, I truly do not wish to be meanspirited. But when the assertion is made that the evidence for macroevolution is zero, I have to say something. And when the assertion is made that Darwinism consists of the denial of design (design which, furthermore, is apparently obvious to everyone but close-minded biologists), I really have to say something, even though when that comes up, I'm at a bit of a loss for words. Is modern meteorology solely the assertion that weather patterns come from an unguided, naturalistic process? Why in the world should meterorology (or evolution) even be described as "unguided"? Until the arguments for design appear on the table, "unguided" is the obvious default, and calling evolution "not guided" is like calling it "not French". :)Lenoxus
July 9, 2009
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Joseph, did you finally present your ideas about information stored in DNA but not its sequence to Dr. Dembski? I am eager hear his opinion. In addition, has he finally subscribed to FCSI, FSCI or other combinations of the four letters? I had the impression that he kept the three letter CSI.sparc
July 9, 2009
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jerry, i have presented in the past some evidence for macroevolution (serial endosymbiosis). you shrug it off and say there's no evidence it happened by naturalistic processes. whatever that means. now, i am still waiting for your evidence of macro-design that you find so convincing. i would love to hear about novel complex biological traits that have been invented by humans.Khan
July 9, 2009
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"I would love to spend more time linking to positive physical evidece," As I said I have been here for 4 years and have read a lot of books promoting naturalistic evolution. And in none of these have I seen anything supporting the naturalistic hypothesis. We accept micro evolution and you will notice khan referring to my definition of macro evolution as the appearance of novel complex capabilities. That is where the debate is at and where any evidence marshaled should be directed. But I also said, we have the advantage in knowing it does not exist. Otherwise why would evolutionary biologists attack ID on religion and then fail to present this evidence. Interesting phenomenon. Evolutionary biologist all know the evidence does not exist but feign to be offended when ID say it does not exist and say the evidence is overwhelming and then mock us and belittle us in various ways. You are just another in a long line to exhibit the same behavior. A couple people recently have presented some bits and pieces that are interesting but are far from supporting any mechanism for a naturalistic evolution let alone for gradualism. The best answer as to what happened is that it is a mystery and it definitely isn't gradualism. " but I know at this point that it’s pointless, because there’s a traditional pre-existing set of ways any such evidence can be rejected by anti-evolutionists." This is pre judging us and I do not think you want to do that. There is a whole range of people here and most will be willing to listen to any empirical evidence you have but as I said above, we have had evolutionary biologist fail to present relevant stuff. And by the way sounding absolute on things is a technique I use because I know that such an attitude will get people mad and push them to do either of three things. 1) leave the debate in frustration, 2) make ad hominem attacks or 3) try hard to refute this arrogant IDiot. Obviously I prefer 3) and we occasionally get some interesting data but most often it is irrelevant to the debate.jerry
July 9, 2009
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jerry:
I never mentioned God or suggested God. ID has nothing to do with religion and our experience is that anti ID people bring up God before ID people do.
You're right, I was premature with that in this conversation. I was conversing in several threads at once, and one of them had gotten to be almost totally about God, so I got mixed up. Forgive me. The designer has reverted in my mind to a generic immaterial being who may or may not be God.
The best argument for a naturalistic mechanism for evolution in my opinion is the geographical argument. However, there is absolutely no evidence for a gradualistic mechanism for evolution so the question becomes what is the naturalistic mechanism if not gradualism. Many evolutionary biologists have recognized this and this is one reason Stephen Gould declared neo Darwinism dead. People defend Darwin’s gradualism because that is the only mechanism they can conceive of that could make sense. Except it does not fit the data.
Huh, so the physical evidence is in favor of saltation as means of explaining transitions between species? Do you mean that punctuated equilibrium is a theory of saltation? Personally, I always preferred the ID account whereby the designer's action is to keep various organisms alive that supposedly otherwise would die due to their transitional nature. ("Gradualistic design", I guess?). To each his own, though :). In any case, the whole question is restricted to fun debates like this until actual evidence for saltation appears. (Or if not saltation, what is the design alternative to gradualism?)
The hero whose birth we celebrate, whose likeness is on the 10 pound note and who is buried in Westminster Abbey may be a washout in the evolution derby. How does one explain that. Mainly by mocking those who have shown that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.
I would love to spend more time linking to positive physical evidece, but I know at this point that it's pointless, because there's a traditional pre-existing set of ways any such evidence can be rejected by anti-evolutionists. Then, of course, there's a corresponding set of reflexive evolutionist responses. However, I'm not sure of any way Darwinists reflexively refute the positive physical evidence for design, because I've never heard of such evidence. You, at least, seem to think the idea of physical evidence for design (apart from the complex nature of the design itself) is inherently silly anyway. So that leaves nearly all the discussion in the question of the merits of ID philosophically speaking. DATCG:
ID does not and is not required to be dependent upon any religion. As a reminder, as Richard Dawkins stated so clearly for everyone to hear, maybe aliens from another world, with far advanced design seeded our planet long ago.
Ah, it would be one thing if ID allowed for that particular possibility and studied it. But it does not — this blog has had numerous entries concerning why science needs to transcend naturalism, etc. I'm not aware of a single member of the Discovery Institute, for example, who does not think the designer is a physical being subject to natural laws. I think it's pretty safe to say that intelligent design argues specifically for a non-naturalistic designer. I think the Dawkins paraphrasing is getting ridiculous. I'm sure he'd agree that there's just as little evidence for an ET designer as for a disembodied one — but the first one is still more plausible and scientifically sound, because it is based on the known phenomenon of physical life. That's all that came down to. He never said that there was any gap in our understanding which a spaceship would fill.
What if an advanced civiliztion simply terraformed earth, seeded it and left? This too is possible. Because it is possible, merely claiming that evidence “must” be left behind is not evidence against ID.
Are you starting to see why ID has so little currency in the sciences? It's not any philosophical objection to the conclusions of ID — it's the philosophical objection to the lack of positive evidence. Yes, it certainly is possible that terraformers left zero evidence. It's also possible that we're all in the Matrix. There's no way of knowing until the evidence turns up.Lenoxus
July 9, 2009
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DATCG, you don't understand the debate. according to jerry, it is about the origin of novel complex traits. biological traits, not robotic ones. recreating organs is nice but that is not a novel trait, just a mimicry of something we already have. jerry thinks that design offers a better explanation than evolution because we have observed biological design in the field of synthetic biology. however, this has been on the level of switching genes around, with nothing novel or complex created. thus, he (and you too now) is guilty of the same sin he accuses evolutionists of, namely extrapolating from trivial, micro-design to macro design of novel complex traits. why do you think it's acceptable to make the leap from micro to macro in this case but not in evolution?Khan
July 9, 2009
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Lenoxus, If you know the bible, then you are aware of verses where the Creator states that man is without excuse for denying his existence... Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Nature is His creation. You can believe, reject, etc., but you cannot deny He states that the evidence is seen right before your very eyes daily from the nanosize optic fibers in our eyes to the butterfly crystal structures that MIT researchers using the best equipment in the world are trying to duplicate. The complexity is the evidence of a Creator. But, ID does not and is not required to be dependent upon any religion. As a reminder, as Richard Dawkins stated so clearly for everyone to hear, maybe aliens from another world, with far advanced design seeded our planet long ago. He had to admit this with at least some objective honesty because no one knows where a symbolic code like DNA arose from. They do not know our origins. As for leaving evidence like a lab. What if an advanced civiliztion simply terraformed earth, seeded it and left? This too is possible. Because it is possible, merely claiming that evidence "must" be left behind is not evidence against ID.DATCG
July 8, 2009
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