Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Meat of the Matter

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

I invite our readers to review my last post and the exchanges between me and eigenstate (hereafter “E”) in the combox.  I could go through a point-by-point rebuttal of eigenstate’s comments, but it would be pointless, because far from rebutting the central thrust of the post, he did not lay a finger on it.   Here is the central argument of that post:  The immaterial mind exists.  Everyone knows the immaterial mind exists.  Its existence is, indeed, the primordial datum that one simply cannot not know.  Therefore, any denial of the existence of the immaterial mind is not only false; it is incoherent.  Hence, the immaterial mind is not an “explanation” of any sort; it is a datum one must take into account in any robust (indeed, any coherent) ontology.  And if your metaphysics requires you to deny this undeniable fact, that is a problem with your metaphysics, not the fact.

In response E screams over and over and over (one can just imagine his wild eyes rolling back in his head as spittle spews from his lips) “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.  And so are you.”  One wonders why a meat robot is so passionate about evangelizing all of the other meat robots to ensure they know (can meat “know”?) the true nature of their meatiness.

But E, you might object, it is absurd to say that the physical components of brain meat (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) can exhibit the attributes of an immaterial mind such as subjective self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.  Isn’t it just as absurd to say that amalgamations of the physical components of brain meat can exhibit those attributes?  Stupid! E responds.  You have committed the fallacy of composition.  What is the fallacy of composition?  That is indeed a real logical fallacy.  It means that it is fallacious to infer that a whole can exhibit only the attributes of its individual parts.  Here’s an example of the fallacy:  An individual brick cannot provide shelter; therefore a house made of bricks cannot provide shelter.   How does this apply to brain meat?  According to E, brain meat as a whole has properties far different from its meaty components, and one of those properties is the capacity to delude itself into believing it has the attributes of an immaterial mind.

Now, to his credit, I am sure E will be the first to admit that not all kinds of meat have this capacity.  Indeed, brain meat is the only kind of meat that we know of that does.  And what is the difference between brain meat and other kinds of meat that accounts for this difference?  It is all a matter of how the meat is arranged.  “Structure matters,” E observes pedantically.  Wait just a minute.  Is E saying that if a rib eye steak were structured just a little differently it would be conscious?  Well, yes, that is kind of the gist of it.  But where is the dividing line between non-conscious rib eye steak kinds of meat and conscious brain meat, you might ask.  Well, here is where things get a little murky.  But according to E, if we arrange the same stuff that rib eye steaks are made of (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) into a particularly complex configuration, at some point . . . wait for it . . . poof! you get meat that (has the illusion of) self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.

That’s right.  It turns out that invoking the fallacy of composition is actually just a backhanded way of invoking Poof! It emerged.  And like all emergentist accounts of consciousness, the pesky details about how consciousness (or the illusion thereof) emerges from simpler kinds of meat are never explained.  It really is just that simple.  E’s reasoning goes something like this:  You commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that houses emerge from bricks arranged in a particular way; and in just the same way you commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that consciousness emerges from meaty components arranged in a certain way.

“But,” you might object, “meaty components – no matter how complex the arrangement – are still, well, you know, meat, which is a physical thing.  How can an immaterial mental phenomenon like consciousness emerge from meat?  Isn’t that a category error?”  Now here is where E’s evangelism takes on a fundamentalist zeal reminiscent of an Appalachian snake handler.  In response to such a question he would stand to his feet, stretch out his arm, point his boney finger at you, and scream “Infidel!”  You see, E is committed to materialism with an intense quasi-religious fervor, and he holds his faith commitments with a dogmatic, brassbound and rigid fideism that would make a medieval churchman blush.  After he caught his breath and got his heart rate under control, he would reply breathlessly, “There can be no category error, because there is only one category and that category is physical; thus sayeth the prophets of materialism.”

Here is where the story gets very sad.  You see, materialism is a stunted, narrow-minded and provincial way of looking at the world.  A more robust ontology allows one to take the world as he finds it and revel in the full panoply of its grandeur, beauty and mystery.  But materialism says if self-evident facts conflict with its precepts, to hell with the facts; the precepts come first.  The god of materialism is a harsh taskmaster, and he forces all of his servants to wear blinders lest they be tempted to behold the forbidden facts.  And E, having heeded his god and donned his blinders, literally cannot see the beauty, vastness and glory of his immaterial mind.  Instead, he stamps his foot, gets red in the face, and chants, “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.”  Madness; sheer madness.

 

Comments
Box, When faced with a problem, do you not find yourself with a number of possible solutions? And out of that set, do you have no choice but to actually attempt to implement all of them? Or can you criticize them as they come to you? To quote Popper, "We can let our theories die in our place" If you look closely, you'll may even notice this happens a level you might not normally be aware of. So, again, there is a way for correction to occur. Criticism, in one form or another. So, yes. The contents of thoughts are not "in your control" thats because they are not something we can mechanically extrapolate from observations. The contents of those thoughts are conjectured guesses that you don't "choose". We always get out more than we put in, so you can't choose something that you didn't know before hand. Rather the choice and criticism comes afterwards. Popper's contribution is not only prescriptive but descriptive. It explains how knowledge grows.Popperian
May 18, 2015
May
05
May
18
18
2015
05:02 PM
5
05
02
PM
PDT
"...the intuitive and commonsense feel of materialism seems to last only as long as one keeps one's statement of it vague." - Edward FeserMung
May 17, 2015
May
05
May
17
17
2015
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
Popperian: you seem to be confused about Buddhism
Are you saying that "I" am thinking confused thoughts about Buddhism?
Popperian: we’re confused about there being an “I” that thinks our thoughts.
Aha, so not "I", but "something else" is thinking confused thoughts about Buddhism". Well, whatever "it" is that is thinking "my" confused thoughts about Buddhism, "it" is well beyond my control, is it not? So if "my" thoughts about Buddhism are confused, there is little point in telling me about it, because there is no way for me to correct them, is there? If my thoughts are not under my control—are not my full and complete responsibility—then "I" am no longer a rational being. And I put it to you that rationality goes out the window.Box
May 17, 2015
May
05
May
17
17
2015
05:03 AM
5
05
03
AM
PDT
Box, For further clarification, see the video: The Self is an Illusion by Sam Harris.Popperian
May 17, 2015
May
05
May
17
17
2015
04:53 AM
4
04
53
AM
PDT
Box:
Hell freezes over before anything material reaches a state of self-awareness...
Wouldn't doesn't that imply some kind of contradictory theory about why anything reaches a state of awareness as a form of criticism? However, no such theory is known. For example, if there is nothing material about consciousness then what prevents rocks from becoming self-aware? What about stars? What prevents a person's consciousness from accidentally being transferred to a rock? Perhaps all rocks are conscious, but that consciousness is lost when we break them up to make concrete? Why do people experience one immaterial mind state, rather than an infinite blur of every possible immaterial mind state for the present, simultaneously, or distinct immaterial mind states from the past or from the future? IOW, the immaterial is defined in what is supposedly is not, rather than what it is or why. it doesn't add to the explanation. At best, apparently, some things become consciousness and can reason, but not others, because "that's just what some ultimate source of justification wanted". All that does is appeal to some ultimate source of justification, which is bad philosophy.
so the thoughtful materialist has no choice but to deny the very existence of consciousness. This denial takes on various shapes and forms. Rosenberg’s version is just one of many:
I've read one of M.Epstein's books. As such, you seem to be confused about Buddhism. For example, to quote Sam Harris from this NYT article...
Consciousness exists (whatever its relationship to the physical world happens to be), and it is the experiential basis of both the examined and the unexamined life. If you turn consciousness upon itself in this moment, you will discover that your mind tends to wander into thought. If you look closely at thoughts themselves, you will notice that they continually arise and pass away. If you look for the thinker of these thoughts, you will not find one. And the sense that you have — “What the hell is Harris talking about? I’m the thinker!”— is just another thought, arising in consciousness. If you repeatedly turn consciousness upon itself in this way, you will discover that the feeling of being a self disappears. There is nothing Buddhist about such inquiry, and nothing need be believed on insufficient evidence to pursue it. One need only accept the following premise: If you want to know what your mind is really like, it makes sense to pay close attention to it.
Harris is not denying that consciousness exists as a first person experience. Rather he's saying we're confused about there being an "I" that thinks our thoughts. The freedom that we gain through introspection is freedom from the suffering that confusion brings. Note how this reflects the same process that I've been advocating. Ideas begin as arising thoughts in consciousness - conjectured guesses. We constantly criticize and weed out those ideas that do not withstand criticism. This includes criticism that occurs at an instinctual level, which we don't intentionally bring to bare. Mindful meditation is a form or rational criticism that reveals the error of a thinking "I" to us.Popperian
May 17, 2015
May
05
May
17
17
2015
04:05 AM
4
04
05
AM
PDT
@WJM
Empirical observations = brain states. Tests = brain states. If “brain states” is all you have to test other brain states with, then you are checking the potential error of your brain states with other brain states that are derived from the same overall individual-generating program that is producing the original, potentially erroneous brain state in question.
Again, all you've done is defined "immaterial" in a negative sense. As such, you haven't explained how knowledge grows in an immaterial model. Apparently, it's just magic. First, I'd again point out that "Idea X could be wrong" (including any material brain state) isn't a good criticism because it's equally applicable to all ideas. As such it cannot be use in a critical way pair our ideas down to just one or two theories that survive that criticism. Everything could be wrong. For example, is source Z infallible? To know, you would need to be able to infallibly identity an infallible source. What does source Z say? To know, you would need the ability to infallible interpret any such infallible source. How does that work? Second, even if our brains/minds worked as perfect as a computer, the content of theories do not actually come from observations. This is because theories are not out there for us to observe. They are conjectures, intuitions, guesses, etc., which we then criticize. We cannot extrapolate observations to create theories in a mechanical way. Rather, observations are always first put into an explanatory context. IOW, the claim that our minds are immaterial doesn't actually improve things as our theories are not guaranteed to be correct. Again, what you would need is an infallible way to interpret an infallible source, such as observations. But that simply doesn't survive criticism. IOW, having immaterial minds, whatever that means, doesn't address your own objection, even if it were valid. Third, rather than being the source of theories, observations help us choose between theories we have already guessed. That's how we escape. Knowledge is information that plays a causal role in being retained when embodied in a storage medium. It solves a problem, even in cases where there is no knowing subject that can conceive of that problem. This includes non-explanatory knowledge that represents our instinctual ability to see objects, etc. That's the thing about Popper's theory. It unifies theories across multiple fields, including Darwin's theory of variation and selection. ID has no such explanation for the origin of the knowledge in organisms, let alone a unifying explanation for its growth. Taking theories seriously for the purpose of criticism means assuming they are true, along with all of the rest of our current best theories. We expect them to be wrong from the start. So, they will clash and reveal inconsistencies and problems. They will fail to solve the problems they supposedly to solve. That's how knowledge grows. That's how we escape.Popperian
May 16, 2015
May
05
May
16
16
2015
04:56 PM
4
04
56
PM
PDT
substance dualism (alternate version) a person or subject of experience is, indeed, not to be identified with his or her body or any part of it, but nor is a person to be thought of as being an immaterial spirit or soul, nor even a combination of body and soul. a person is not identical with his or her body nor with any part of it a person is not composed by his or her body nor by any part of it Consequently, a person can have no parts at all of which he or she is composed: a person must be a simple substance. - E.J. Lowe, An introduction to the philosophy of mind.Mung
May 16, 2015
May
05
May
16
16
2015
08:50 AM
8
08
50
AM
PDT
Hell freezes over before anything material reaches a state of self-awareness, so the thoughtful materialist has no choice but to deny the very existence of consciousness. This denial takes on various shapes and forms. Rosenberg’s version is just one of many:
FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. (…) at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates. (…) The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives. (…) [A.Rosenberg, ‘The Atheist’s Guide To Reality’, ch.9]
Obviously the whole project of the denial of consciousness is self-referentially incoherent—“I“ cannot doubt that “I” exist—, but on top of that it tears down RATIONALITY, as I have argued:
In order for rationality to exist, there has to be a ‘thinker’ and ‘thoughts’ and distance between them. Thoughts have to be under strict hierarchical top-down control by a thinker with overview. Obviously, thoughts running amok is the end of rationality. Without these conditions being met, there can be no rationality. (…) I simply cannot grasp a concept of rationality without ‘central executive’. And I put it to you that no one can. Thoughts have to be subjugable by a thinker with overview. If they are not or if (God forbid) it is the other way around, rationality, as we understand the term, cannot exist.
Decades ago, attending a course ‘eastern philosophy’, I was likewise appalled by the denial of consciousness, which is omnipresent in ‘eastern’ reflections. I asked my professor a very simple question: “What’s in it for me?” He looked at me in silence, without any indication that he understood my question. I remember thinking: “anybody home?” I just found out that googling “thoughts without a thinker”, results in finding a book by M.Epstein m.d. with the exact same title. Excerpt from a review by Dr. Arthur Deikman:
Epstein suggests that Western psychotherapy has a significant contribution to make to Buddhism, but that Buddhism goes beyond Western psychotherapy in its ability to assist the individual in recognizing the non-existent nature of "I", the self. Epstein regards the Buddhist negation of the "I"--achieved via mindfulness meditation -- to be the crowning contribution of Buddhism to psychotherapy because when the self is seen to be nonexistent, the human being is freed from narcissistic concerns -- the source of suffering. This latter step, the core of Buddha's teaching, is seen as an opportunity for final freedom. [emphasis added]
We are talking sheer utter madness here! If there is no one who is free, there can be no freedom. If there is no thinker there is no top-down control. Without top-down control thoughts are running amok. When thoughts are running amok there can only be chaos and NO RATIONALITY.Box
May 16, 2015
May
05
May
16
16
2015
03:28 AM
3
03
28
AM
PDT
Eigenstate: There’s no problem with a rigid, top-down hierarchy in a materialist metaphysic. It’s completely compatible with materialism (just remind yourself quickly what philosophical materialism entails). [emphasis in the original]
Requoted in its entirety. This is by far the most outrageous nonsense ever spouted on this forum.Box
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PDT
Eigenstate: There’s no problem with a rigid, top-down hierarchy in a materialist metaphysic. It’s completely compatible with materialism.
Can you refer to a concept of relevant top-down hierarchy which is compatible with materialism?Box
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
04:15 PM
4
04
15
PM
PDT
I simply cannot grasp a concept of rationality without ‘central executive’. And I put it to you that no one can. Thoughts have to be subjugable by a thinker with overview. If they are not or if (God forbid) it is the other way around, rationality, as we understand the term, cannot exist.
OK. I'd say that's a pretty simple resolution, then; rationality doesn't and can't exist as you understand the term. But that's really not such a big deal I guess. The world kept turning when the misconceived ideas about impetus gave way to terms that connected with better models of the world. Motion kept on being motion, and all that, just a lot of ideas about the nature of that dynamic got replaced, definitions replaced, etc. I suggest that "choosing from available options based on priorities and assessments of effects and ramifications" will keep on happening if you were to adopt a notion of rationality that connected (in my view) with the world in similar ways to Ari's impetus.
What I’m interested in is if you feel the need to argue for ‘rationality without central executive’ because your position—materialism—cannot ground a central executive or is there some ulterior motive?
There's no problem with a rigid, top-down hierarchy in a materialist metaphysic. It's completely compatible with materialism (just remind yourself quickly what philosophical materialism entails). The problem is that that topology of control and "existential hierarchy" just breaks down on initial contact with the real world. Ostensibly, it can't accommodate feedback loops. Or recursion, or self-reference. Etc. And that has nothing to do with materialism, so far as I can see. The metaphysic that underwrites your notion of "rationality", so far as I can understand it, has just as much a glass jaw in coming into contact with the real world under the rubric of "immaterialist metaphysics", whether that be mystical property dualism, Christian theism, or what have you. I'd have to learn more to make the case, but your concept of "control" and "hierarchy" as concepts we might apply to the real world appear quite problematic.eigenstate
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
02:57 PM
2
02
57
PM
PDT
Eigenstate #114:
Box: In order for rationality to exist, there has to be a ‘thinker’ and ‘thoughts’ and distance between them. Thoughts have to be under strict hierarchical top-down control by a thinker with overview. Obviously, thoughts running amok is the end of rationality. Without these conditions being met, there can be no rationality.
Eigenstate: This is just argument by definition, Box. If some system is presented and you look at it and find distributed components that interact as peers, with no central executive, no homunculus with a baton “sitting on top” (…) and you watch this system reason (…)
I simply cannot grasp a concept of rationality without ‘central executive’. And I put it to you that no one can. Thoughts have to be subjugable by a thinker with overview. If they are not or if (God forbid) it is the other way around, rationality, as we understand the term, cannot exist. What I’m interested in is if you feel the need to argue for ‘rationality without central executive’ because your position—materialism—cannot ground a central executive or is there some ulterior motive?Box
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
02:32 PM
2
02
32
PM
PDT
I object to the use of the verb “reify”. “Thinker” is used here as largely synonymous with “consciousness”, which, as we all know since Descartes, is quite the opposite of abstractness.
Maybe it's best to use "consciousness", then, as that fits with "an activity of the brain", while "thinker" suggests a new entity.
Otherwise you are correct. In order for rationality to exist, there has to be a ‘thinker’ and ‘thoughts’ and distance between them. Thoughts have to be under strict hierarchical top-down control by a thinker with overview. Obviously, thoughts running amok is the end of rationality. Without these conditions being met, there can be no rationality.
This is just argument by definition, Box. If some system is presented and you look at it and find distributed components that interact as peers, with no central executive, no homunculus with a baton "sitting on top", as it were, and you watch this system reason from alternatives, consider counterfactuals, simulate other minds, and possible future states based on one action versus another, interpret and speak human languages fluently, etc. Well, that system is just "irrational by definition", from what I'm getting from you. If so, ho hum, it goes on and *does* what rational agents do. A rose by another name, etc.
Eigenstate: In a computing environment, for example, “control” just points at causality in execution, (…) Aha, so this is not the kind of control which is needed for grounding rationality. Materialism needs to look elsewhere.
Well, this pretty much confirms your commitment to argument-by-definition then. If the system "rationalizes", that is, if it does what we identify as essential for the behaviors and capabilities for human rational agents, calling it "irrational" is just an exercise in bickering over metaphysical terms.
Eigenstate: not a “metaphysically superior” place on some abstract hierarchy, or anything like that. Further indication that AI is not the way to go, because what we need is the strictest of hierarchical relationships in order to ground rationality. Something like “metaphysically superior” is exactly what is needed in order for rationality to exist.
That's too bad. I suspected there was something more substantive here than argument by defintion.
And you see, where you are utterly hopelessly wrong, is when you speak of “some abstract hierarchy”. This incredibly poor choice of the word ‘abstract’ shows that you haven’t even begun thinking about rationality. And this is where discussion breaks down.
It can't really get off the ground if it's nothing more than insistence on parochial metaphysical terms and doesn't even take (or need) notice of how things work in the world. You might as well insist that Aristotle's (or John Philoponus') theory of impetus is a metaphysical truth of the world. I can point you at all sorts of models and experiments and tests that not only have no use for the concept of impetus, but which would fail to be working models insofar as they *did* incorporate it, but it won't matter if you consider "continued motion only maintains due to continued action of a force" axiomatic, that the world must conform to your metaphysical axioms and terms, rather than the other way around. If you want to include an argument that is corrigible by the way the world works, that is cognizant of different models that succeed and fail based on the dynamics of world around us. But there's nothing to begin with, let alone break down, if "rationality" must obtain, ipse dixit like the impetus (And to be fair to old Aristotle, the impetus idea was at least grounded in empiricism).eigenstate
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
11:22 AM
11
11
22
AM
PDT
Popperian said:
First, “Idea X could be wrong” is a bad criticism because it’s applicable to all ideas. As such, it’s not possible to use it in a critical way.
My criticism is not that "idea X could be wrong", but rather "idea X could be wrong, and you have nothing in your toolbox to correct it besides what created it in the first place."William J Murray
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
11:05 AM
11
11
05
AM
PDT
That idea that the instructions is a solution to the problem of building a car is a brain state. When it is criticized by empirical observations and tests – by taking that theory seriously, along with the rest of our current best theories – we find an error in it which we correct.
Empirical observations = brain states. Tests = brain states. If "brain states" is all you have to test other brain states with, then you are checking the potential error of your brain states with other brain states that are derived from the same overall individual-generating program that is producing the original, potentially erroneous brain state in question. You're asking the hens to guard the henhouse. You need something other than a hen to guard a henhouse.William J Murray
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
11:03 AM
11
11
03
AM
PDT
@WJM
You are conflating actuality with belief. You are assuming that at some point, in some way, there is a way for the individual to “be” something other than whatever their brainstate says they are, or for them to see the world some way other than their brains state dictates.
No, I'm not conflating the two. I'm contrasting the two. Knowledge is objective in that it is independent of anyone's beliefs. The instructions indicate what transformations of matter should occur, which represents knowledge, that solves a problem of how to build a boat. This occurs regardless if one believes it will result in a car or intended to build a car, instead. That idea that the instructions is a solution to the problem of building a car is a brain state. When it is criticized by empirical observations and tests - by taking that theory seriously, along with the rest of our current best theories - we find an error in it which we correct. This changes the way we see the world. The idea that we create knowledge though conjecture and criticism is itself an idea that changed the way I see the world. Again, you're completely ignoring one key point: problems are inevitable. And the very fact that error is possible, they are potentially solvable.
Depending on how your brain is wired, you might believe you ordered step by step building instructions for a car; you might believe you followed those instructions; you might believe, when you are done, that you have a car; however, all that might have been actually going on is you barking and panting like a dog the whole time. There would be no means by which to penetrate the delusion and access any “actuality”, because from the experiential inside, you are your delusion. There is no other “you” available to intervene from somewhere outside of the delusion.
First, "Idea X could be wrong" is a bad criticism because it's applicable to all ideas. As such, it's not possible to use it in a critical way. Second, my brain isn't wired in any old random fashion. My brain is a storage medium for knowledge, as defined above. The origin of that knowledge doesn't determine if it is retained. Rather, the content of that knowledge itself plays a casual role in being retained in my brain. Some of that low level knowledge is simply useful rules of thumb, which is non-explanatory in nature. But it's still useful enough to cause it to be retained. Some of it contained errors, such as the idea that knowledge come from authoritative sources. But we've made progress since then. We can devise criticism specifically designed to expose errors in our knowledge. Furthermore, it's unclear how the mind state being immaterial actually improves your situation. For example, why should we think anyone could see the world in a way other than what their immaterial mind state allows? Couldn't demons be making you believe you're building a car, but are actually barking and panting like a dog? Or, being immaterial, what's to prevent you from seeing the world as a blur through every possible immaterial mind state at the same time, etc. IOW, you just seem to have defined immaterial in context of what it is not, yet failed to present an alternative explanation for the growth of knowledge in an immaterial sense. Why does knowledge grow? Let me guess, immaterial minds work because "that's just what some authoritative ultimate designer wanted it to work"? But that tells us nothing and represents bad philosophy.
BTW, your argument assumes the very foundationalism you protest against.
You'll have to expand on that. I'm not a foundationalist. I'm a critical rationalist.Popperian
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
06:35 AM
6
06
35
AM
PDT
Eigenstate,
Box: (1) Rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts.
Eigenstate: It reifies “thinker” as something separate from the thinking.
I object to the use of the verb “reify”. “Thinker” is used here as largely synonymous with “consciousness”, which, as we all know since Descartes, is quite the opposite of abstractness. Otherwise you are correct. In order for rationality to exist, there has to be a ‘thinker’ and ‘thoughts’ and distance between them. Thoughts have to be under strict hierarchical top-down control by a thinker with overview. Obviously, thoughts running amok is the end of rationality. Without these conditions being met, there can be no rationality. It’s up to materialism to come up with materialistic concepts which ground these necessary conditions for rationality. A venue for materialism to explore may be computer programming?
Eigenstate: In a computing environment, for example, “control” just points at causality in execution, (…)
Aha, so this is not the kind of control which is needed for grounding rationality. Materialism needs to look elsewhere.
Eigenstate: not a “metaphysically superior” place on some abstract hierarchy, or anything like that.
Further indication that AI is not the way to go, because what we need is the strictest of hierarchical relationships in order to ground rationality. Something like “metaphysically superior” is exactly what is needed in order for rationality to exist. And you see, where you are utterly hopelessly wrong, is when you speak of “some abstract hierarchy”. This incredibly poor choice of the word 'abstract' shows that you haven’t even begun thinking about rationality. And this is where discussion breaks down.Box
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
02:45 AM
2
02
45
AM
PDT
@Box
(1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts.
This is highly problematic start. It reifies "thinker" as something separate from the thinking. It's also ostensibly equivocal on "control". In a computing environment, for example, "control" just points at causality in execution, not a "metaphysically superior" place on some abstract hierarchy, or anything like that. If I have two routines like this: void funcA(float curValue) { curValue += getDelta(); curValue = funcB(curValue(); } void funcB(float curValue) { curValue += getGamma(); curValue = funcB(curValue(); } int main() { float result = funcA(1.0); } Setting aside the race condition between funcA() and funcB() that would need interrupt signal to terminate the program, where is "control" at any given point in the program's execution? Well, it's wherever the current execution point in the code is. main() is the starting point, the "top" function, but as soon as we are in funcA(), that function has "control". It is "logically" downstream from main() -- main() is up the stack frame -- but funcA() has full control. That is, if it never decided to return, or to call out to a funcB() or something else, nothing else would be called. This should show why "control" is a problematic term here. In brain activity, there is no "current opcode" which represents the program counter for execution. But neither is there a "meta-brain" that governs the brain (or a meta-meta-brain which would be need to govern that meta-brain, and so on, and so on...). Different areas of the brain "light up" and activate, producing effects that have cascading ramifications for other parts of the brain. But it's not a hierarchy, but rather a set of interacting subsystems and networks that interact with each other. Which points to "loops", loops that look like funcA() -> funcB()-> funcA()->..... only with many more components interacting. "Control", then is just "whatever is firing", and in a human brain, these can be truly parallelized operations, unlike the "virtual multiprocessing" of a CPU that just switches execution contexts so fast it appears to humans to be mult-tasking.
(2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain.
Better to say "under materialism, thinking is the activity of the brain". "Thinker" doesn't map to anything I'm aware of in the materialist model, apart from the activity of the brain itself. It's an important distinction: brain activity doesn't produce a 'thinker', whatever that might be. Brain activity is thinking, or to use the same cognate as you have, the brain is the thinker, no "other thinker" needed or useful, on materialism.
(3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2)
(4) no effect can control its cause.
In funcB() above, funcA() is the cause of its execution. But it also is the caller/cause of execution of funcB(). Whoa. Your statement doesn't account for self-reference, recursion, loops and network rings. It's not hard, as shown with the simple lines of code above, to implement effects that control their causes, and get "re-effected" in turn, and once again, control that original cause..... When you have to map your concepts to the real world, and the way thing actual work, and can be demonstrated to work, your abstractions don't work as concretes. Effects and causes are ordered temporally -- the cause precedes the effect in time. But this does not isolate any causal dynamic from being itself the "effectee" of the effects it caused. This is a feedback loop, a very simple flow and one that you can implement trivially in software or observe easily in nature.eigenstate
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
09:17 PM
9
09
17
PM
PDT
Box @ 107, Thank you, the additional explanation makes it clearer to me.
Looking with one’s physical eyes (external perception) versus looking inward with one’s ‘mental eyes’ and perceiving one’s fantasies, thoughts (internal perception).
What occurred to me when I read this was a quote from Jesus Christ:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." - Matthew 5:27-28 NASB
So, what Jesus taught here involved three elements: a. The act of illicit sexual intercourse. b. The perception of a woman leading to internal desire or fantasy. c. The equivalence of a. and b. at least in moral principle. -QQuerius
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
06:28 PM
6
06
28
PM
PDT
Querius #106, Thank you for your response.
Querius: I honestly can’t find a principle to divide internal from external.
I didn't make myself clear. Unfortunately I'm still struggling with the English language. Allow me to try again: I was talking solely about perception. Looking with one's physical eyes (external perception) versus looking inward with one's 'mental eyes' and perceiving one's fantasies, thoughts (internal perception).
Querius: If my simply observing a radioactive particle prevents it from decaying (the Quantum Zeno Effect), where is the boundary between my mental activity and the presence or absence of various radioisotopes and ionizing radiation?
I fully agree that mental activity does not restrict itself to one's inner world. Every post on this forum testifies to that fact.Box
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
06:13 PM
6
06
13
PM
PDT
Box @ 81, Thank you for your response.
Given a differentiation between internal and external perception, do you agree that without exception internal phenomena present themselves as immaterial?
I honestly can't find a principle to divide internal from external. If my simply observing a radioactive particle prevents it from decaying (the Quantum Zeno Effect), where is the boundary between my mental activity and the presence or absence of various radioisotopes and ionizing radiation? I'd also speculate then that the distinction is artificial, and that the internal controls the external at the most basic levels. Thus, the conclusion might be that the so-called immaterial is Reality while the so-called material is an illusion. "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God." - The Apostle John And maybe it's like smoke arguing with steam which of them are more tangible just before a powerful gust of wind. -QQuerius
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
05:48 PM
5
05
48
PM
PDT
Box, that's a keeper! :)bornagain77
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
(1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain. (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. - - - Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality.Box
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
03:43 PM
3
03
43
PM
PDT
Carpathian,
Carpathian: You seem to be making the case that that there is a hierarchy involved in thinking with the mind at the top. Am I right?
Yes you certainly are. Hierarchy is abundant in life. When we observe an organism we see that all parts are functionally subservient to the organism as a whole. We see layers of organization. Cells, fibers, organs are all hierarchically organized top-down. There is no democracy (or anarchy) in an animal body, and if there is the end is near. Everything is in full functional accord—harmony—with the organism as a whole. As I have argued, we see the same hierarchal structure in rationality. Without hierarchy thinking is impossible. As in the body, when ideas, words and sentences are not under (strict) control rationality has ended.
Carpathian: If I have understood correctly, I have to disagree.
I’m sorry to hear that.
Carpathian: There is no hierarchy required if the brain is the source of thought and thus what people call the mind. A hierarchy is only required for the separate mind/brain concept.
I have argued that reason requires hierarchy (amongst other things), why do you hold that this is no longer a requirement when the brain is the source of thought? How does that fact remove a logical requirement? Can thoughts run amok—without control—simply because the brain does the thinking? Why is that?Box
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
02:08 PM
2
02
08
PM
PDT
Carpathian said:
The process of thinking rewires the brain constantly. Patients with brain damage, when MRI’ed just after the accident and then again at later times, show evidence of brain function moving from one part of the brain to another. MRI’s show evidence that the brain rewires itself.
Is that supposed to somehow rebut what I said? Whether the brain states and physical architecture are static or dynamic, "you" are still whatever that structure makes you, in terms of beliefs and how beliefs are generated. There is no escaping that, under materialism. If you change from one bias to another, from one belief to another, it's just the result of the happenstance interactions of matter guided by lawful and stochastic forces/processes.William J Murray
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
Carpathian: Who inserts the immaterial mind? LOL! How big is the immaterial mind? How much does the immaterial mind weigh? What is the chemical composition of the immaterial mind? How long does it take the immaterial mind to travel from New York to Los Angeles?Mung
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
Box: You seem to be making the case that that there is a hierarchy involved in thinking with the mind at the top. Am I right? If I have understood correctly, I have to disagree. There is no hierarchy required if the brain is the source of thought and thus what people call the mind. A hierarchy is only required for the separate mind/brain concept. I still have not seen a logical argument that is strong enough to suggest the brain is not the source of "consciousness".Carpathian
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
EugeneS:
Until such time as you have personal experience of spiritual reality. Once you have it, nothing else matters and you realize that all this ‘logical thinking’ is really rubbish ????
I understand and have no problem with the idea of some hidden spirituality. The problem I have is when some theists try to use logic to make a case for spirituality.Carpathian
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
12:57 PM
12
12
57
PM
PDT
Carpathian: Material legs exist and what they do is called walking.
I have argued that things like 'control', 'overview' and 'hierarchy' need to be accommodated by materialistic theory. How does your example help in this regard? Does 'walking' control 'material legs'? Is 'walking' something that has a hierarchical relationship to 'material legs'? Do you see what I mean? The analogy 'legs & walking' illustrates what is meant by 'emergent property' (walking), but it does not illustrate the things I have argued for.Box
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
12:53 PM
12
12
53
PM
PDT
Carpathian #94, "there’s no reason to add an extra level of complexity to life such as immaterial entities." Until such time as you have personal experience of spiritual reality. Once you have it, nothing else matters and you realize that all this 'logical thinking' is really rubbish ;)EugeneS
May 14, 2015
May
05
May
14
14
2015
12:52 PM
12
12
52
PM
PDT
1 2 3 5

Leave a Reply