The Road to the Holocaust — Darwin or the Pope?
| April 20, 2008 | Posted by William Dembski under Expelled |
Mainstream reviews of Ben Stein’s EXPELLED are going apoplectic over the movie’s connection between Darwin and Hitler. Take, for instance, the review in the Village Voice: it describes the connection between Darwinism and Naziism as “bizarre and hysterical.”
Yet this weekend saw the opening not only of EXPELLED but also of CONSTANTINE’S SWORD. Here’s what the Village Voice has to say about that film:
X marks the spot, literally, where Christianity and the Catholic Church fostered the centuries of religious hatred and anti-Semitism that culminated in the Holocaust…. But if his film is more provocative personal inquiry than reportorial knockout punch, it still pokes needed holes in the concept of papal infallibility and provides historical context for the dangers of linking the church and military. If nothing else, it demonstrates why we should feel cold shivers whenever President George W. Bush bandies the term “crusade.” GO HERE FOR FULL REVIEW
So a film that shows how Christianity “culminated in the Holocaust” constitutes cutting-edge cultural commentary. But a film like EXPELLED, which shows explicitly how the Nazis appropriated Darwin’s ideas, is “bizarre ad hysterical.”
Thank God for EXPELLED, which is holding the secular media’s feet to the fire.
87 Responses to The Road to the Holocaust — Darwin or the Pope?
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Only if people mistake the words “is” and “ought”. In order to do this “outworking”, you have need to have principles that allow you to go from what is to what (you think) should be.
Quite. In order to take Darwin’s ideas out of political philosophy we need to apply some moral principles. But it’s only though applying different moral principles that they got in in the first place.
Keep the Reason,
“If anyone disagrees with me, let them ask themselves this: If tomorrow there was solid evidence that proved there was no god, would you personally suddenly become an evil doer?”
You justify your own acts by alluding vaguely to reason and sense informing you that they are ‘good’. Forget for a moment that many people who believe in God make the exact same arguments as you do with regards to behavior.
If tomorrow there was solid evidence that proved there was no true evil or good, what would this conversation matter? If those things are purely subjective, all of your arguments are empty – the only difference between your being a good neighbor and someone mugging a child is subjective and popular view. But if those things are objective, one has to start asking why nature seems to have objective moral principles worked into their fabric.
Theists have an answer to that. Do you?
was a Lysenkoist. he thought Darwinian evolution was a scientific manifestation of Capitalism. he had “Darwinist” scientists put to death. Mao closesly followed suit. i don’t know enough about Pol Pot to make a case. in any case, leave them out of it. if “Darwinism” is the social ill you make it out to be, it was very much nothing to do with the radical left.
but why do you place the blame solely on Darwin – surely Edison must be blamed for his advances in electronics that made Nazism possible? surely the early chemists must be blamed for discovering Chlorine and other poisons? surely we must blame Hitler’s mother for ever having conceived the horrible man?
Darwin simply noted a scientific explanation for natural phenomena (whether you personally reckon it is true or not is irrelevant to my point here). Expelled seems to be intent on dragging his name through the mud for some later hateful dictator who may or may not have misappropriated his views.
it is noteworthy that even if Charles Darwin had killed all six million Jews in the Holocaust himself because of the conclusions he drew from his theory, that would not affect one jot whether or not the theory is true or false. you need actual science to find out the veracity of a science, not whinging and hair-pulling.
alext at 65
Yes, that is the politically correct edition. For a reality check, read Weikart Darwin and the Nazis etc. linked at my post above DLH 59.
You forget that Stalin described Darwin’s Origin of Species as the reason he left Christianity and became an atheist — and urged others to do so. Darwin’s explicitly excluding God (or any ID) triggered the world’s second most dangerous tyrant.
Look at the fruit/consequences of choices based on Darwin’s evolutionary theories.
Keep the Reason at 66
We have honored your humanity, granting you the privilege of speaking here (supporting your public rights to speech and religion in this moderated forum) to state such opinions.
Yes it is good to systematically develop theories. That is why the Discovery Institute advocates AGAINST ID being taught right now in schools.
However, what are you doing to support that right of speech, right to religion, and academic inquiry?
Gonzalez did the work and published it. Yet atheist religion professor Hector Avalos took it on himself to vilify Gonzalez, leading to Gonzalez’s tenure being denied.
What will you do to lift this a priori totalitarian discrimination in Scienceand uphold our unalienable rights?
Keep the Reason at 69
Why? Is this not the practical outworking of Darwin’s theories and prediction?
From your basis, are you not but the chance, historical combination of atoms?
Why should we consider your statements to have any meaning beyond random association of memes?
Per Francis Schaefer, can you not as easily help a grandmother cross the street as push her in front of a truck?
What do you value? And on what basis? I do not see how you provide any basis for value other than “might makes right.” Anything beyond that appears probably assimilated from the Judeo-Christian world view of those around you.
If you seriously wish to consider moral worth, examine the lives of the greatest individuals of the 20th century. e.g. See David Aikman’s Great Souls. 2003 ISBN-10: 0739104381
KTR: “They (ID’ers) know they CANNOT do the work, because “the work” involves proving god.”
A strawman – completely divorced from reality. I am sure you felt like you had laid the final blow, but instead you seem incapable of fighting the battles at hand, so you resort to fighting the battles you wish.
Keep The Reason, you have come here and made several comments that don’t make the first rung on the logic ladder (and I am being kind without wanting to be crude).
Please enjoy reading David Berlinski’s “The Devils Delusion”.
Sure KTR, let’s try it again, perhaps you missed it in the first post.
KTR: “They (ID’ers) know they CANNOT do the work, because “the work” involves proving god.”
Justify this.
Keep the Reason
Consider publishing a textbook in his field, followed by the book, The Privileged Planet during that time!
KTR: “They (ID’ers) know they CANNOT do the work, because “the work” involves proving god.”
You broadcast your ignorance of ID.
See ID assumptions.
ID seeks to detect empirical evidence of Intelligent Design.
It explicitly does NOT seek to identify or prove the intelligent cause. It is possible to detect design without proving the designer. See the Monolith in Space Odessy 2001.
My replies keep getting canned again…..
Keep the Reason,
One fundamental assumption of ID is that Darwin’s work is not science and as such should not be part of the science curriculum in the schools. Darwin collected a lot of data on his trip on the Beagle and made a lot of speculatory claims based on the data. However, there has been no verification of most of his claims since that time both in the fossil record and in the area of micro biology.
What has been shown by science is trivial and not disputed by ID. However, his grander claims lay falsified by work in the last 150 years and as such should be removed from textbooks and acknowledged in biology courses.
Boy, did anyone see the Pope’s goodbye speech last night? Because I heard it was just a bunch of creationism.
ID seeks to detect empirical evidence of Intelligent Design.
It explicitly does NOT seek to identify or prove the intelligent cause. It is possible to detect design without proving the designer. See the Monolith in Space Odessy 2001.
I don’t agree with that analogy, it was not empirical that the monolith in space odessy 2001 was made by an intelligent creator, that’s a rationalistic assumption made when you first see it.
Empirical evidence for design would be to look for patterns by which a designer would be required. There are many monoliths that are simply the result of natural processes.
jerry at 79
Caution: Please be more accurate in your descriptions. This is NOT “fundamental assumption of ID”.
See ID Assumptions which say nothing about Darwin.
The Discovery Institute advocates teaching MORE about the evidence both supporting (sic) evolution and that which does NOT fit.
Keep the Reason
“Perpetrate: To be responsible for; commit: perpetrate a crime; perpetrate a practical joke.”
No ad hominem attacks allowed.
Your are already getting more attention than you deserve, and much more than my limited time allows.
DLH,
Change “assumption” to either “belief” or “conclusion.”
“That’s fine. When you have the evidence, we’ll look at it”
There is plenty of evidence for design. The fact our species has nearly created the first synthetic microbe is the only evidence needed to demonstrate that intelligent agents can create life.
” (let’s remind everyone that Stein attempts to make Dawkins look like a fool for admitting that it’s possible that the ID might be “aliens” in “Expelled” — more deceit.)”
Um no, dawkins stuttering through his arguments was his own fault, not ben stein.
Unless you have a demonstratable way of showing ben stein controlling mr. Dawkins speech, I’m afraid he’s just a zealot, who’s yet to learn how to hold his tongue…
“what its goals are are well known too.”
I’m sorry, are you suggesting you speak for the ID movement? What gives you such authority?
“Frankly, I think you folks are resting on the short attention span and scientific ignorance of most Americans–”
LOL how adorable, as though you could speak for most Americans as well…
I’m sorry but you sound like an ignorant elitist who’s spent much too time talking to people who carry the same ideas as yourself.
you aren’t in a position to comment on most Americans.
Nor is anyone else, as most Americans haven’t been polled with such questions, I certainly haven’t, nor has anyone I know.
You aren’t psychic or all knowing, just incredibly self important.
” Most Americans ARE very poorly read when it comes to science”
Funny, could you remind me then why it is most of the world uses our innovations? lol
“, and they don’t know the difference between biological Darwinism and Social Darwinism,”
Right, one couldn’t have any implications on the other… Science isn’t a bureaucracy… just tell yourself that while a group of pot headed professors file papers for those much beloved grants of theirs…
No science could never be corrupted *rolls eyes*
No no the federal government and the courts aren’t touching anything… please just stop… you’re embarassing yourself.
We know there are lobbyists/judges/professors supporting certain causes and that money all trickles down…
Your generalizations are pathetic, and your attempts to take the nazi issue out of context and summarize it as somehow victimizing “Bona fide” lmao… biologists show you couldn’t argue your way out of a parking ticket.
Save the speaking for those who think before they talk.
Keep the Reason
You are accusing everyone here of “pretending” and of being “horribly UNscientific”.
That is not civil debate.
Again you accuse of “deceit”. Stein gave Dawkins sufficient time to clearly express his beliefs on possible causes of biotic systems. Dawkins now appears to be expanding on his performance in Expelled with similar declarations.
You appear to be basing your arguments on materialism or philosophical naturalism and claiming those who do not hold to your worldview are morally wrong.
The critical issue is whether “Science” can empirically detect intelligent causation.
It is being used in forensics, archeology, and reverse engineering etc.
Evolutionists acknowlege that biotic systems have the appearance of being designed. Over 700 credentialed scientists are skeptical of the capabilities of neo-Darwinian theory to explain the origin of biotic systems.
What “scientific” explanation can you provide for the Origin Of Life?
Mathematical population models do not appear to support neo-Darwinian explanations of observed complex biotic systems. Natural law cannot explain the origin of coded information. Stochastic methods does not provide an explanation either. Thus, for those not committed to philosophical naturalism, it appears reasonable to see if theories of Intelligent Design can be developed to explain such systems.
We respect freedom of conscience and of speech – but require civil discourse.
You have one last chance to respond civilly, and address substantitive issues without accusing those here of egregious violations of their consciences.
keep_the_reason
And really, the first thing you need to do is stop pretending that every gap in evolution means ID must be the option B. That’s horribly UNscientific, and every last one of you knows it.
I’ll agree to that if you stop pretending that everything in evolution is chance & necessity. That’s horribly UNscientific, and every last one of you knows it.
this shows that design is possible, not that it happened to cause life on earth. it is possible to do many things that have not happened in history before.
Kep the Reason – good posts.
Interesting thread here!
I for one am very glad that Ben Stein included the Darwinism-Holocaust connection. Today’s phlegmatic, politically correct culture needs the conversation! For sixty years we’ve discussed the Christian anti-Semitism connection—and it’s been for the good. That the Church tortured and burned to death its tens of thousands should never be forgotten. And by and large Christendom has not shied from considering a Nazi connection, and many have expressed sorrow and shame for the past. But what a difference now when just the whif of a mention of a Darwinian connection and the folks come out snorting like banshees.
That for me is the best sign that the discussion is long overdue!
Keep the reason: One quick point and one extended one.
1) On ID: One thing you need to realize is that ID can detect design but it cannot establish the IDENTITY of the designer. Your references to the supernatural suggest that you are not making that distinction. Unless you learn what a design inference really is, you will criticize ID for what it is not and not for what it is, which is what you are doing.
2) On Darwinism: You cannot simply build a civil society on the hope that we will all agree to be nice to each other. In fact, there are plenty of people will not conform to altruistic principles. Indeed, those who lust after power, the very ones who will be able to use the power of the state against us, don’t want to get along, they want to dominate and enslave. That is why we have the rule of law, which in turn, is supposed to be based on the natural moral law. The natural moral law teaches us that the “inherent dignity of every human person is not something to be negotiated or arrived at by consensus. It is build into nature. That is what is meant by “natural rights.” The Darwinist principle denies that any right can be natural, because it insists that there can be any such principle in nature. Any rights that are not natural are not inalienable and can be withheld at any time.
Keep the Reason at 94
Translation of DaveScott at 92
“What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”
Perhaps you could demonstrate how the information in the genome arose by chance and necessity and obtain a patent on the process. (Guaranteed a Nobel prize if you can! –
Hint: The Patent Office will not patent perpetual motion machines.)
“How many times must I repeat it? Do the work. Go for it. Get the evidence.”
See The Biologic Institute
See Evolutionary Informatics Lab
In the interest of science and the public good, will you help raise the funds to do so?
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“What “scientific” explanation can you provide for the Origin Of Life?
========
Right now, none.”
Good – no one else does either. Which was why Stein asked.
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“Please explain such guidelines to me, ”
See http://www.uncommondescent.com/comment-policy/“>Comment Moderation Policy
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“. . .since you take me to task for accusing Stein of deceit (which can be backed up by numerous people), but you say nothing to Stone for saying “Dawkins should lean to hold his tongue”, . . .”
That is a tu quoque logical fallacy.
A subset of Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial)
—————————–
I said “No ad hominem arguments.
“Excuse me, are you taking me to task for calling Ben Stein deceitful in his methods — as an ad hominem in this debate??”
Yes
—————-
“I make NO moral judgments on people who do or don’t believe in evolution, and have argued 180 degrees apart from that. Please show where I’ve made this argument you’ve accused me of.”
Then study your use of words like: “deceit”, “deceitful”, “perpetrator”, “horribly”, “wrong”,
e.g.,
That politely is begging the argument, since ID is showing examples where science DOES identify intelligent causes etc.
Evolutionists are trying to define science to explicitly exclude all possibilities of intelligent causation.
I encourage you to take a break and learn more about logical fallacies and how to avoid them, especially ad hominem arguments. Also study about moral judgments, speaking the truth, accusing people of wrongdoing etc.
Stone (73, responding to DLH): “Empirical evidence for design would be to look for patterns by which a designer would be required. There are many monoliths that are simply the result of natural processes.”
If you mean simply “a single great stone …” or “a massive structure”, sure. Nature can produce many of those. But how many have perfectly flat sides with dimensions 1 by 4 by 9 (the squares of 1, 2, 3) and a host of other unusual properties. DLH didn’t simply refer to just any old monolith but rather to that particular one with its obviously non-natural properties.
That said, the general sense of your first statement seems right. We look for effects that are not plausibly within the reach of undirected processes. The design filter seeks to weed out cases that might plausibly be explained by undirected law+chance. If they are not within the reach of the limits of undirected processes, then the best causal inference is to directed processes, i.e. intelligent agency.
Of course, all scientific inferences are tentative, being made with the best evidence available at a given time.
The Nazi holocaust was only a culmination of a far more pervasive growing trend that was embraced in the United States as well. The law in question in the famous Scopes monkey trial was not about forbidding instruction in evolution but rather exclusively about the treatment of man in evolutionary terms. Understood in context, we can see exactly why people were concerned and what they were trying to avoid.
Here is an excerpt from the site http://www.TheMonkeyTrial.com — an extremely eye opening site and highly recommended if you don’t mind letting go of the “Inherit the Wind” mythology.
Spartans killed their own children that were considered weak either physically or mentally. I presume they guessed with their physic powers what the Darwinian theory will be.
Referring to the nazis is just a cheap way for creationists to symbolize evil to the general public.
Grow up.
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