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Time for serious pursuit of post-Darwinian theory, says new BIO-Complexity paper

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From Ann Gauger at the Biologic Institute new BIO-Complexity paper:

Five family members from the GabT-like protein family. The first three are very similar. These enzymes are considered by current standards to be homologous, that is, evolutionarily derived.

The five enzymes shown above are clearly related in structure, especially the three on the left. Yet none of the others can replace BioF2’s function in the cell, even when mutated and made in large amounts. Why is that? Probably because each enzyme is a structural whole, whose sequence is made to work together as a whole. Substituting or changing little bits doesn’t work.

Here are the concluding paragraphs of our recent paper where we explain the problem and propose a new way of thinking about it:

“Although there is as yet no satisfactory theory of biology to take the place of Darwinism, we believe the time has come for serious pursuit of such a theory. To quote one of our previous papers [45]:

The insights we gain from the critique of neo-Darwinism can and should inform the construction of a new theory to take its place. That is, in pinpointing the key problems with the old theory we are identifying crucial respects in which its replacement must differ from it. We ourselves have become convinced that intelligent causation is essential as a starting point for any successful theory of biological innovation. If this is so, what is needed now is an elaboration of the general principles by which living things have been designed.

To that end, one of our inferred principles of design is this [45]:

The substantial reworking of a homologous structure needed to give it a genuinely new function is more suggestive of reapplication of a concept than adjustment of a physical thing.

And another is this [45]: … More. (Reeves MA, Gauger AK, Axe DD (2014) Enzyme families—Shared evolutionary history or shared design? A study of the GABA-aminotransferase family. BIO-Complexity 2014 (4):1-16. doi:10.5048/BIO-C.2014.4.)

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Comments
Moose, " take note of keiths' snide comment.. he's well more knowledgeable than you." (Is this a snide comment?) I'm sure he is, you may even be, on certain topics, however a working theory is something you don't have. OOL and the corollary RM+NS=Ev is a working theory. Certainly life hasn't been artificially produced but betting against it is, as the fields progress, foolish (despite anger that we as a species should be so presumptive). And this anger also shows a deep misunderstanding of evolved human nature; curiosity, which you by the way possess very little of.rvb8
December 17, 2014
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Thanks, Zachriel, I've downloaded all three zips, but am unable to look at them right now as the business of Christmas, and an extended vacation is upon me.Moose Dr
December 16, 2014
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Moose Dr: Where can I observe your program at work, making coherent sentences at each mutational step? Phrases, not necessarily sentences. The software is rather decrepit so we won't vouch for it. You might start with Word Mutagenation to see how it works. http://www.zachriel.com/mutagenation/Zachriel
December 16, 2014
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Interesting. Where can I observe your program at work, making coherent sentences at each mutational step?Moose Dr
December 16, 2014
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Moose Dr: However, I do see a major flaw in your algorithm. You seem to have a dictionary lookup technology that offers a “selection”, rejecting unacceptable mutations. Not unacceptable mutations, but mutants that don't form words. That's rather the whole point. They die. Most mutants die. Moose Dr: It would seem fair to me that if the new word sequence was devoid of grammatical logic, it should be rejected. Grammar is a property of the relationship between words. Moose Dr: It would seem fair, however, for there to also be a grammatical lookup. Been there, done that. Added iambic rhythm and alliteration, the result was the same. Evolution can easily traverse the landscape. Moose Dr: it would seem that mutations should only be selected if the resulting sentence provide, well, meaning. If you mean mutants, then sure. For starters, words found in the dictionary always have meanings. Moose Dr: The latter, however, is something I don’t know how to automate, making it a difficult requirement for your program. Imagine a dictionary of every valid phrase in English. If we use a subset of that dictionary, we are actually making the problem even more difficult because we would be rejecting many valid phrases and sentences. So to make the problem reasonable, we use a subset. Again, an evolutionary algorithm easily traverses the landscape.Zachriel
December 16, 2014
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Zachriel, thanks for the response. I always viewed recombination in the context of sexual reproduction. I think that there is a certain algorithmic recombination that goes on during sexual reproduction. Am I correct in that? (No, I don't consider this an evolution killer. Organisms have all sorts of what I would call algorithmic activity.) It seems to me that random recombination, while periodically potentially doing something useful, would mostly be really good at producing unsightly DNA. After all, it sounds like what happens when I shuffle a deck of cards. Oh, Zachriel, I recall looking at a program you wrote that uses the basic mutation types to produce English words. I thought it quite intriguing. However, I do see a major flaw in your algorithm. You seem to have a dictionary lookup technology that offers a "selection", rejecting unacceptable mutations. It would seem fair, however, for there to also be a grammatical lookup. It would seem fair to me that if the new word sequence was devoid of grammatical logic, it should be rejected. Am I not correct? In truth, it would seem that mutations should only be selected if the resulting sentence provide, well, meaning. The latter, however, is something I don't know how to automate, making it a difficult requirement for your program. Do you believe that your program will get very far if every new word had to pass the "grammatically correct" test?Moose Dr
December 16, 2014
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Moose Dr: If, on the other hand I just recombined English words with random length/offset, I would likely not recombine on the syllable boundary. How does recombination work. Compared to randomization, word evolution is much, much faster when recombining bits and pieces of existing words whether or not you splice on syllable boundaries. That's because the same basic structures are used over and over again. English language words are not distributed evenly through sequence space, and it appears that they are largely connected by single steps of mutation or recombination. Moose Dr: Does recombination have a sense of motif boundaries, or is it just recombining random chunks here and there? There are many different ways to recombine. Most recombination is homologous, such as sexual recombination. Exons, which usually code for specific protein structures, can be shuffled over the course of evolution. Breaks can occur anywhere, and when combined with various types of mutation, can recombine at any point.Zachriel
December 16, 2014
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RVB8, Please take note of Keith S's snide comment (42). Remember, Keith S is on your team. He's well more knowledgeable than you. He can't point to an experimental setup that produces life. Whether such an experiment will ever be found is a question, but such has not been found yet. In any case, your "energy + chemicals = life" formula is a bit faulty.Moose Dr
December 16, 2014
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Zachriel, "Yes, and it occurs in both diploid and haploid organisms." Interesting. Now, you draw the analogy to syllables in English. If I were to write a program that recombined syllables in English to search for new words, I would start with a sense of what a syllable was, and would recombine on the syllable boundary. If, on the other hand I just recombined English words with random length/offset, I would likely not recombine on the syllable boundary. How does recombination work. Does recombination have a sense of motif boundaries, or is it just recombining random chunks here and there?Moose Dr
December 16, 2014
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Interesting comments on related subject: http://www.reasons.org/articles/evolution-seeing-isnt-believingDionisio
December 16, 2014
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rvb8:
OOL and Evolution are separate topics. The requirements of evolution are random mutations, followed by the the sifting process known as natural selection, and aided by sexual selection and perhaps gene transfer. The requirements of OOL, are chemicals and energy. What in the world is so difficult to grasp?
It is only if blind watchmaker-type processes produced living organisms would we say that they also produced its diversity. On the other hand if living organisms were intelligently designed then we would infer that the bulk of the evolution is also via intelligent design- as in organisms were intelligently designed to evolve and evolved by intelligent design (for example via Spetner’s “built-in responses to environmental cues). Why is that so difficult to understand? That said, both genetic and evolutionary algorithms are perfect examples of intelligent design evolution/ evolution by intelligent design. No one knows how to model unguided evolution. And yes, Intelligent Design implies there was an Intelligent Designer but we get to the Intelligent Design by first detecting and then studying the intelligent design and all relevant evidence.Joe
December 16, 2014
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It’s certainly something biologists are very interested in, however, evolutionary theory is self-supporting ...
BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Please link to this alleged evolutionary theory so we can see how self-supporting it is. AGAIN how life originated directly impacts how it evolved. It is only if blind watchmaker-type processes produced living organisms would we infer they are solely responsible for its diversity. On the other hand if living organisms were intelligently designed then we would infer that the bulk of the evolution is also via intelligent design- as in organisms were intelligently designewd to evolve and evolved by intelligent design (for example via Spetner's "built-in responses to environmental cues). That evos continue to ignore that fact exposes their desperation.
RNA replication doesn’t seem to need a repair mechanism,
RNA replication appears to need an intelligent designerJoe
December 16, 2014
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computerist: If I play at the slot machine, anything I win will likely be put back into the machine as long as I continue playing it (overtime) as the odds are stacked against me given the nature of the algorithm. On the other hand, if you play draw poker with multiple draws, you'll probably end up with a better hand than you started with. computerist: Are the odds not constantly against beneficial mutations from occurring? Beneficial mutations are relatively rare, but evolution means you get to keep you current hand and wait for the beneficial mutation. Moose Dr: There’s insertions, deletions, inversions, etc. You are saying that there is a mutational type called a recombination? Yes, and it occurs in both diploid and haploid organisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_recombination Mapou: I realize that I am in the minority but, IMO, OOL and evolution are not separate topics for the same reason that ID and designer are not separate topics. It's certainly something biologists are very interested in, however, evolutionary theory is self-supporting just as a theory of planetary motion doesn't require explaining the origin of planets. There may be a period between the biotic and abiotic realms, a parabiotic period, but this is just conjecture. Mapou: You must also have a viable reproductive capability and a gene repair mechanism to conserve the vast majority of the genome. RNA replication doesn't seem to need a repair mechanism, and it is posited to have preceded the DNA world. Mapou: In addition, complex organisms must also have an adaptive mechanism based on epigenetics. Epigenetics is just an expression of phenotype.Zachriel
December 16, 2014
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“The requirements of OOL, are chemicals and energy.” Just like that huh Rvb8? So simple.
LOL. Chemicals and energy, then you have life. What is so difficult to understand?
So we have a field of research, called ool, based on assumptions that we have never witnessed nor have we been able to duplicate/verify. This passes as science these days does it?
Exactly. And if you doubt the speculations based on imaginary evidence, then you supposedly know nothing about "real science".Silver Asiatic
December 16, 2014
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"The requirements of OOL, are chemicals and energy." Just like that huh Rvb8? So simple. Pity we can't demonstrate it. Miller/Urey tried and failed. So we have a field of research, called ool, based on assumptions that we have never witnessed nor have we been able to duplicate/verify. This passes as science these days does it? I'm curious as well to hear how energy and chemicals, along with the laws of physics etc originated and organised itself into a fine tuned system allowing the conditions for life to exist in the first place? Sounds like materialistic nonsense and secular fairy tales. You folks are still pushing spontaneous generation.humbled
December 16, 2014
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Moose Dr:
Keith S, please help me and rvb8 out. Please show us an experimental setup that produces life from non-life.
Moose Dr, Please wash and wax my car. And while you're out, could you pick up some of that Australian-style yogurt? Lemon and blueberry.keith s
December 15, 2014
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Keith S, please help me and rvb8 out. Please show us an experimental setup that produces life from non-life.Moose Dr
December 15, 2014
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Sorry for the spelling error, see: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=WhackadoodleMoose Dr
December 15, 2014
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rvb8:
I believe there was an icon of Design, a Christian engineer whos name escapes who disproved evolution because life failed to appear in a jar of peanut butter he left standing for a period of time.
His name is Chuck Missler, and he is indeed a "religious whack-a-doodle", as Moose Dr puts it. Peanut Butter, the Atheist's Nightmarekeith s
December 15, 2014
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What's a 'whack-a-doodle'? Mildly insane? Well the peanut-butter produced nothing, except a tasty spread and so proved nothing, Pasteur grew germs, and proved 'Germ Theory', but don't worry it's just a theory. Yes, religion was important throughout Pasteur's life, and....?rvb8
December 15, 2014
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RVB, "I believe there was an icon of Design, a Christian engineer whos (sic) name escapes who disproved evolution because life failed to appear in a jar of peanut butter he left standing for a period of time." Um, his name is Louis Pasteur. 'Might of heard of that religious whack-a-doodle. His experiment is still running. Please site me the science experiment in the annals of "Science Fair" projects, or any other source for that matter, where you mix chemicals together, add energy and get life.Moose Dr
December 15, 2014
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Thanks Mung, I have skimmed over that paper and it seems that their understanding of slot machines in general must be flawed if they're using it to support their position. The fact is that the model they present in the paper doesn't work for the simple reason we already know that mutations override mutations. Last I recall slot machines have a theoretical "overtime" payback percentage on average around 90%, but if that was the case then casinos wouldn't make as much money as they do, this is because partial wins are quickly overridden by subsequent losses, ensuring that input > output throughout the process. Natural selection (in this case the individual playing the slot machine and making the decision if they want to continue playing or not) cannot preserve what it doesn't have (in this case money) and what it can quickly lose if it does have it. And obviously we cannot really use the literal jackpot analogy as that would be analogous to obtaining a complex protein in a single random shot or winning the lottery (of course many combinations do not map evenly since virtual reels increase the odds "behind the scenes" of a certain "higher" combination from appearing) Natural selection cannot preserve what it doesn't have and can quickly lose if it does have it.computerist
December 15, 2014
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"I'll light a big bonfire. That should provide the energy. You provide the chemicals. Please produce a new life-form for me." Wow, the level of being ignorant in this statement is truly astounding. Steer clear of real science site Moose, you won't like what you read. I believe there was an icon of Design, a Christian engineer whos name escapes who disproved evolution because life failed to appear in a jar of peanut butter he left standing for a period of time. Kirk Cameron and Ray comfort disproved evolution because they asked the truly egregious question, "where are all the Crocaducks?" Aquinas or one of the Church fathers gave advice to Christians not to argue (unless well prepared) with learned men, lest they bring Christianity into disrepute by showing its followers to be yokels.rvb8
December 15, 2014
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RVB, "The requirements of OOL, are chemicals and energy. What in the world is so difficult to grasp?" You certainly are well informed, aren't you. 'Tell you what, I'll light a big bon fire. That should provide the energy. You provide the chemicals. Please produce a new life-form for me.Moose Dr
December 15, 2014
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I realize that I am in the minority but, IMO, OOL and evolution are not separate topics for the same reason that ID and designer are not separate topics. They are intrinsically and inseparably linked. Furthermore, RM + NS are not sufficient for survival. You must also have a viable reproductive capability and a gene repair mechanism to conserve the vast majority of the genome. In addition, complex organisms must also have an adaptive mechanism based on epigenetics. Epigenetics does not need RM + NS. It modifies certain genes in response to environmental cues. It is a front loaded mechanism that anticipates future requirements. As I have mentioned elsewhere, some trees can change their genetic signatures during their lifetime in such a way that the top of the tree has a different genetic signature than the bottom. Neither natural selection nor random mutations are necessary or useful.Mapou
December 15, 2014
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Zachriel (28): "With the analogous situation for word evolution, it’s far more likely for the recombination of syllables from existing words to form a new word than for random letters to form a new word." Help me to understand. I understand that there are a variety of mutational types beyond the "point mutation". There's insertions, deletions, inversions, etc. You are saying that there is a mutational type called a recombination?Moose Dr
December 15, 2014
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OOL and Evolution are separate topics. The requirements of evolution are random mutations, followed by the the sifting process known as natural selection, and aided by sexual selection and perhaps gene transfer. The requirements of OOL, are chemicals and energy. What in the world is so difficult to grasp?rvb8
December 15, 2014
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Slot machines can produce wins in spite of the odds. http://faculty.rwu.edu/aespinosa/aespinosa/Outreach_files/The%20Jackprot%20Simulation.pdfMung
December 15, 2014
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Zachriel, If I play at the slot machine, anything I win will likely be put back into the machine as long as I continue playing it (overtime) as the odds are stacked against me given the nature of the algorithm. That's how casinos take everyone's money. Next thing you know I will be taking out money at the ATM using a "magical credit card". Are the odds not constantly against beneficial mutations from occurring? If not, why not? Is there a "magical credit card" you forgot to mention?computerist
December 15, 2014
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Moose Dr: I would presume that you are saying that within a particular “gene” (codes for a protein) there are, well, subroutines. Protein motifs, whether structural motif or sequence motif, represent common functional elements of proteins. For instance, a zinc-finger is a fold that holds a zinc ion. http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/101/motm.do?momID=87 With the analogous situation for word evolution, it's far more likely for the recombination of syllables from existing words to form a new word than for random letters to form a new word.Zachriel
December 15, 2014
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