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Rupert Sheldrake talks about herd mentality in science

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Rupert Sheldrake Portrait

Sheldrake, author of Science Set Free, is a Cambridge-trained biochemist and plant physiologist, is a prominent public intellectual critical of the authoritarianism and closed-mindedness that he finds increasingly typical of mainstream science.

But we will let him tell it to philosopher James Barham here:

The Best Schools: On p. 93 of your new book, Science Set Free (Deepak Chopra, 2012), you speak of the “intellectual phase-locking”—that is, the “group think” or herd mentality—that clearly plagues mainstream science today. We were wondering whether this was mainly due to the hubris that comes from the unprecedented social prestige scientists now enjoy, or whether it might not be more a matter of the metaphysical commitment to materialism that has been deeply ingrained in the scientific community for the past 400 years.

In other words, is the intellectual phase-locking of scientists more about arrogance and turf-protecting? Or is it more about their being in the grip of a misguided ideology? Or both? Please elaborate.

Rupert Sheldrake: The materialist ideology promotes a high degree of conformity in scientific thinking because it is indeed ideological, and materialists are unforgiving towards heretical deviations from this belief system.

Over the course of the twentieth century, the atmosphere within biology became increasingly intolerant, at the same time as physics opened up a wider range of possibilities. There are still great limitations on what professional physicists can think, but there is a toleration of alternative interpretations of quantum mechanics, divergent interpretations of cosmology, the question of whether there is one universe or many, and so on.

Another reason for the greater uniformity of thinking is the professionalization of science. In the nineteenth century, many of the most creative scientists were not professionals. For example, Charles Darwin was an amateur naturalist living on a private income, with no academic post or government grant. He was much freer as a result.

Now, the vast majority of scientists rely on salaries and are far more aware of peer-group pressure. In fact, the peer-review system for jobs, grant applications, and publication of papers in journals means that peer pressure dominates their lives. In the nineteenth century, there were fewer constraints on creative and independent thinking. More.

Don’t miss: Non-Darwinian biologist Rupert Sheldrake takes on Darwinian atheist Daniel Dennett

Rupert Sheldrake: An early non-Darwinian biologist looks back on it all

Figure of fun Richard Dawkins gets thrown out of Sheldrake’s lab

Rupert Sheldrake likes Dembski’s Being as Communion

Comments
Dave, instead of pointing that out to atheist jock who is more atheistic than u are , you give him a great big smile for his non factor post . What I can't believe are the stats that come out every year saying that atheists are the. It's hated and distrusted group of people on earth . I can't for the life of me understand why this is ;) Can you save ? Lol I know, the whole world is jealous and they are the brites. Of course atheists are the brites of the world . If you don't believe it just ask them ;)wallstreeter43
March 29, 2015
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The interview occurred after he met the bald nurse the next day. And it is frankly hilarious that when I first quoted you the above text, you failed to recognize it, despite its being pulled verbatim from the AWARE paper. “anyone that has looked over the descriptions given knows that they weren’t generic” Uh-huh. Wow DNA atheist jock , and your point is ? I already told u save tahtbthenshrius interview occurred a week after and it was done that way for ethical reasons . I know I know atheist jock , the patient made it up or was lying right ! It's amazing that you actually think that it made a difference bit because you are an atheist and not a deist as you keep trying to fool us into believing I think we can trust the patient hete .wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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The interview occurred after he met the bald nurse the next day.
:-odaveS
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter43,
He no linger feels this way , but the question here Dave is what of they do the sptwist and ten stats so t come the way you want them to come. Does that magically make this example and the thousands of anecdotal examples go away ?
Are you asking what happens if no effect is demonstrated in more rigorous experiments? That wouldn't make these anecdotes go away, but it would suggest that they aren't "real" in the sense that some people believe they are.
This leads to my other question , do you need the concept of scientism to be true in order for you to believe all truths including life after death ? Scientism means that the only things we can believe rationally to be true are things that can only be uncovered by science ?
If I understand your question, my answer is no. But in this specific case, I don't see what can substitute for strong empirical evidence. And really, if nde's are as you and others describe them, it should be possible to show that they exist using science.daveS
March 28, 2015
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Wow wallstreeter, It entertains me that your bias is so strong that you cannot comprehend the idea that someone who is a deist, not an atheist, could find the evidence for nde's uncompelling. It's funny: you cannot see that an nder who was able to accurately describe the upper surface of the shelves in the OR (the primary goal of the AWARE study) would be more compelling than this:
Category 5 recollections Recollection # 1 (Before the cardiac arrest) “I was answering (the nurse), but I could also feel a real hard pressure on my groin. I could feel the pressure, couldn’t feel the pain or anything like that, just real hard pressure, like someone was really pushing down on me. And I was still talking to (the nurse) and then all of a sudden, I wasn’t. I must have (blanked out). . ..but then I can remember vividly an automated voice saying, “shock the patient, shock the patient,” and with that, up in (the) corner of the room there was a (woman) beckoning me. . .I can remember thinking to myself, “I can’t get up there”. . .she beckoned me. . . I felt that she knew me, I felt that I could trust her, and I felt she was there for a reason and I didn’t know what that was. . .and the next second, I was up there, looking down at me, the nurse, and another man who had a bald head. . .I couldn’t see his face but I could see the back of his body. He was quite a chunky fella. . . He had blue scrubs on, and he had a blue hat, but I could tell he didn’t have any hair, because of where the hat was. The next thing I remember is waking up on (the) bed. And (the nurse) said to me: “Oh you nodded off. . .you are back with us now.” Whether she said those words, whether that automated voice really happened, I don’t know. . .. I can remember feeling quite euphoric. . . I know who (the man with the blue had was). . .I (didn’t) know his full name, but. . .he was the man that. . .(I saw) the next day. . .I saw this man [come to visit me] and I knew who I had seen the day before.” Post-script – Medical record review confirmed the use of the AED, the medical team present during the cardiac arrest and the role the identified “man” played in responding to the cardiac arrest. Recollection # 2 “At the beginning, I think, I heard the nurse say ‘dial 444 cardiac arrest’. I felt scared. I was on the ceiling looking down. I saw a nurse that I did not know beforehand who I saw after the event. I could see my body and saw everything at once. I saw my blood pressure being taken whilst the doctor was putting something down my throat. I saw a nurse pumping on my chest. . .I saw blood gases and blood sugar levels being taken.”
The interview occurred after he met the bald nurse the next day. And it is frankly hilarious that when I first quoted you the above text, you failed to recognize it, despite its being pulled verbatim from the AWARE paper. "anyone that has looked over the descriptions given knows that they weren’t generic" Uh-huh.DNA_Jock
March 28, 2015
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Sorry DNA jock , anyone that has looked over the descriptions given knows that they weren't generic . They were very specific . Things such as the nurse being bald even though he was wearing something on his head and other things . DNA , you are the perfect example of the hyper skeptic that crossed the boundaries of rationally and logic a long time ago. This kind of skepticism works great if your preaching to the choir but once it's put to scrutiny like alex tsakiris did when he interviewed doctor patricia churchland people like her and you end up looking like the fools that you really are. Your type of atheism is not an intellectually based atheism ,,it's an emotionally based atheism . Can we say hardening of the heart ? It's crystal clear . But then again I predict in about 30 years or so school kids will be taught about the atheism of our time and kids will be ridiculing it , wondering how anyone could have been so looney to actually hold to this belief. A classroom event and nothing more. Now DNA jock even though you don't live your life that way, you may now go an I to your worldview which has no ultimate purpose, no uptime meaning , no ultimate value and no ultimate hope . But remember dude that I still love you. Come here me give me a big hug man. Everyone needs love , even people with emotional issues :)wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter43, I will give you some credit: you learn from your mistakes. When (@35) you re-pasted your bit about Jessice Utts and Richard Wiseman, you had the good sense to omit the citation to the UK Daily Mail. See https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/stephen-hawking-says-intelligent-design-of-the-universe-is-highly-probable/#comment-553899 (comment 117 on the "Stephen Hawking says intelligent desing of the universe is highly probable" thread) for wallstreeter's original defense of remote viewing. I refer readers to my reply at 125 on that thread.DNA_Jock
March 28, 2015
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Dave I'm all for that , and so is doctor parnia . If you go back to his 2010 interview on skeptiko u will notice that alex tsakiris was kind of irked at parnia for saying that he believed that Nde's were most likely hallucinations caused by a dying brain . He no linger feels this way , but the question here Dave is what of they do the sptwist and ten stats so t come the way you want them to come. Does that magically make this example and the thousands of anecdotal examples go away ? This leads to my other question , do you need the concept of scientism to be true in order for you to believe all truths including life after death ? Scientism means that the only things we can believe rationally to be true are things that can only be uncovered by science ? Parnia said 4 years back that if he didn't get any good results from the awarr study within 3 years he would abandon the study and go with his original belief that Nde's are caused by a dying brain. It's 5 years now and he has already applied for funding for aware part 2 . What does that tell u Dave ? ;) Oh and I also found out something out about the deep brain surge found in rats and a human being in late 2013. It turns out that this deep brain surge has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness . This is when the neurons are de polarizing . This was why when doctor Jeffrey long was interviewed on skeptiko, lomg pulled no punches when he said that this was absolutely the dumbest explanation for the deep brain surge and the doctor who originally sensationalized her research on this quickly back peddled when pressed by alex tsakiris on this ..wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter writes:
Dave that might be true about the pictures , but please tell me why are u hung up on the pictures ? Is the fact that he had a veridical nde that was verified as true with no functioning brain just as good as the suspended pictures ! , especially since he had the experiment without a functioning brain ?
Your 'veridical' nde consisted of a rather generic description of resuscitation procedures of the sort that are broadcast on TV dramas every single day. Your claim that the patient had no functioning brain at the time rests on the assumption that his recollection is perfectly accurate, in particular with regard to the passage of time.
I can’t for the life if me get why this picture thing is so much more solid evidence then the veridical Nde’s that have already been experienced.
Because it would unambiguously fit the specification : "information that the patient could not otherwise have obtained". Which none of the veridicals reported to date achieve. Hence the interest in the possibility of, at some point in the future, a category 5 nde that occurred in a room with images on the shelves.DNA_Jock
March 28, 2015
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If the experiment used 20 pictures randomly placed in each patient's room, then you would expect 140/20 = 7 of the eligible patients to guess the correct picture just by chance. The chance of 12 or more patients guessing correctly is just under 5%. That would be a statistically significant result. Now let me stress, I'm no expert on experimental design. This is just why I think this sort of experiment would be more interesting.daveS
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter43, Because then they can do statistics. Let's say they choose 4 distinctive pictures to start with. Then for each patient, hide a randomly chosen picture in the room. This could be done double-blind. After each procedure, ask each patient which picture was in his or her room. If significantly more than 1/4 correctly identify the picture that was in their room, then you have strong evidence that some sort of nde/out of body experience is happening. This would be much more convincing than fishing through patients' accounts, searching for "hits" after the fact. Edit: I do acknowledge that nde's could occur at too low a rate for this experiment to work with just 4 pictures. In that case, the number of pictures could be increased to decrease the chance of a "hit" by guessing.daveS
March 28, 2015
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Dave that might be true about the pictures , but please tell me why are u hung up on the pictures ? Is the fact that he had a veridical nde that was verified as true with no functioning brain just as good as the suspended pictures ! , especially since he had the experiment without a functioning brain ? I can't for the life if me get why this picture thing is so much more solid evidence then the veridical Nde's that have already been experienced.wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter43,
Dave again here is how the protocol for the first interview went . All patients were interviewed within a week of their arrest , not a year later like u are claiming .
Again, I didn't say anyone's first interview was 1 year later. I simply pointed out that one interview was conducted a year after the event.
The evidence still stands and is compelling . Please now show me how this person could have seen what they saw ?
I don't know? If this phenomenon is real and they are able to improve the suspended picture part of the experiment, then we should expect more convincing results in the future.
This was found by a simple google search Dave . Why is it that I found it and u didn’t ?
I did find the actual paper and tons of discussion on blogs and various fora, so I think I did find it.daveS
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter43,
Dave please don’t cherry pick from the data , it doesn’t show that you really are taking this study seriously . You said that one of the interviews was done a year later. The one specific patient was interviewed 3 times and last of the 3 interviews was done a year after, but the first was done much much earlier .
Yes, that's consistent with what I said. But you brought up cherry-picking, which is another possible critique of this study. There were a handful of cases where patients scored a lot of "hits", but these were drawn from a much larger pool of participants, and nobody's talking about the ones that scored mostly "misses".daveS
March 28, 2015
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Dave again here is how the protocol for the first interview went . All patients were interviewed within a week of their arrest , not a year later like u are claiming . The evidence still stands and is compelling . Please now show me how this person could have seen what they saw ? This was found by a simple google search Dave . Why is it that I found it and u didn't ? http://awareofaware.co/tag/sam-parnia/ Abstract: Aim :To carry out a prospective study of cardiac arrest survivors to understand the qualitative features as well as incidence, and possible aetiology of near death experiences (NDEs) in this group of patients. Method : All survivors of cardiac arrests during a 1 year period were interviewed within a week of their arrest, regarding memories of their unconscious period. Reported memories were assessed by the Greyson NDE Scale. The postulated role of physiological, psychological and transcendental factors were studied. Physiological parameters such as oxygen status were extracted from the medical notes. Patients’ religious convictions were documented in the interviews and hidden targets were used to test the transcendental theories on potential out of body claims. Those with memories were compared to those without memories. Results : 11.1% of 63 survivors reported memories. The majority had NDE features. There appeared to be no differences on all physiological measured parameters apart from partial pressure of oxygen during the arrest which was higher in the NDE group. Conclusions : Memories are rare after resuscitation from cardiac arrest. The majority of those that are reported have features of NDE and are pleasant. The occurrence of NDE during cardiac arrest raises questions about the possible relationship between the mind and the brain. Further large-scale studies are needed to understand the aetiology and true signi?cance of NDE.wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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Dave said ""I do find the case you described interesting. I think there are serious issues that can be raised with the study, for example the fact that one of the interviews occurred roughly a year after the event. I probably won’t be persuaded until they get some good results from the hidden pictures part of these studies, but nevertheless,I am slightly more curious about nde’s than I was."" Dave please don't cherry pick from the data , it doesn't show that you really are taking this study seriously . You said that one of the interviews was done a year later. The one specific patient was interviewed 3 times and last of the 3 interviews was done a year after, but the first was done much much earlier . I hope you are not expecting the interview to be done right away ?, as this would violate a bunch if ethical laws . 3 interviews were done to make sure that the story was consistent which is a good protocol to follow, and it was consistent .wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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BA77,
Plus, I have much better things to do today than watch you chase your own tail around and around in a circle trying to find technical loopholes in which to hide your atheistic preferences.
Well, the distinction between classical and quantum theories is hardly a technical loophole. You of all people should agree with that.daveS
March 28, 2015
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to reiterate: daveS, I rest my case, since I find you to be severely disingenuous. Plus, I have much better things to do today than watch you chase your own tail around and around in a circle trying to find technical loopholes in which to hide your atheistic preferences. Nothing personal, but it all gets too boring after a while. The last word is all yours in which to toot your own horn and issue more ad hominem.bornagain77
March 28, 2015
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Thanks for the links, BA77. I suspected the Hawking Penrose paper of 1970 was the ultimate source. So is the quote you posted a paraphrase of their result? I'm not saying it's inaccurate, just that it might have been written by someone else. Further, the 1970 paper assumes classical GR, but Hawking's no-boundary proposal would indicate that their conclusion need not hold in quantum gravity. Is that also your understanding?daveS
March 28, 2015
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Big Bang Theory - An Overview of the main evidence Excerpt: Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 Steven W. Hawking, George F.R. Ellis, "The Cosmic Black-Body Radiation and the Existence of Singularities in our Universe," Astrophysical Journal, 152, (1968) pp. 25-36. Steven W. Hawking, Roger Penrose, "The Singularities of Gravitational Collapse and Cosmology," Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, series A, 314 (1970) pp. 529-548. http://www.big-bang-theory.com/ Inflationary spacetimes are not past-complete - Borde-Guth-Vilenkin - 2003 Excerpt: inflationary models require physics other than inflation to describe the past boundary of the inflating region of spacetime. http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0110012 "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can long longer hide behind the possibility of a past eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning." Alexander Vilenkin - Many Worlds In One - Pg. 176 "The conclusion is that past-eternal inflation is impossible without a beginning." Alexander Vilenkin - from pg. 35 'New Proofs for the Existence of God' by Robert J. Spitzer (of note: A elegant thought experiment of a space traveler traveling to another galaxy, that Borde, Guth, and Vilenkin, used to illustrate the validity of the proof, is on pg. 35 of the book as well.) “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston - paper delivered at Stephen Hawking's 70th birthday party (Characterized as 'Worst Birthday Present Ever') https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/bornagain77
March 28, 2015
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BA77,
daveS, since I find you to be severely disingenuous, I rest my case.
Again?? Can you at least clear up the Hawking, et al quote source?daveS
March 28, 2015
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daveS, since I find you to be severely disingenuous, I rest my case.bornagain77
March 28, 2015
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BA77,
daveS, so according to you there is no hint that the universe requires a timeless/spaceless cause to explain its beginning in General Relativity? REALLY???
“Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past.” (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) – 1970
Do you have a reference to the source of that exact quote in a publication by Hawking and the others? I see that it shows up on a lot of theistic websites, but I don't find Hawking himself using those exact words.
And according to you there is no evidence that from Quantum Mechanics that the universe requires a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause to explain is continued existence? REALLY???
I will give you credit for supporting your position, at least partially:
"Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them," says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland, and member of the team.
The pdf from the Taiwanese website won't load for me, unfortunately.
Moreover, as to your quip that you are more mathematically adept than I am at understanding mathematics, I note, with a wry smile, the fact that you use mathematics to describe the universe is in itself proof that this universe is dependent a beyond space and time cause for its continued existence (and is also proof that you have a transcendent component to your being that is not reducible to material particles):
No, I never claimed to be more mathematically adept than you. The question was about whether you have ever solved the most elementary QM or GR problems. I guess not? Edit x 2: Further, I don't make any claims about whether there is a "transcendent component to [my] being that is not reducible to material particles".
Thus, since you are so purposely misleading with this evidence, perhaps you can forgive me for putting your criticisms in the same box as all other atheists? In other words, I don’t buy your claim that you are a merely a ‘weak atheist’. In fact, I hold you to be purposely deceptive!
Ha! So you didn't find any contradictions in my post #31?daveS
March 28, 2015
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daveS, so according to you there is no hint that the universe requires a timeless/spaceless cause to explain its beginning in General Relativity? REALLY???
“Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past.” (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) – 1970
And according to you there is no evidence that from Quantum Mechanics that the universe requires a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain its continued existence? REALLY???
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory - 29 October 2012 Excerpt: "Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them," http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php LIVING IN A QUANTUM WORLD - Vlatko Vedral - 2011 Excerpt: Thus, the fact that quantum mechanics applies on all scales forces us to confront the theory’s deepest mysteries. We cannot simply write them off as mere details that matter only on the very smallest scales. For instance, space and time are two of the most fundamental classical concepts, but according to quantum mechanics they are secondary. The entanglements are primary. They interconnect quantum systems without reference to space and time. If there were a dividing line between the quantum and the classical worlds, we could use the space and time of the classical world to provide a framework for describing quantum processes. But without such a dividing line—and, indeed, without a truly classical world—we lose this framework. We must explain space and time (4D space-time) as somehow emerging from fundamentally spaceless and timeless physics. http://phy.ntnu.edu.tw/~chchang/Notes10b/0611038.pdf Quantum experiment verifies Einstein’s ‘spooky action at a distance’ – March 24, 2015 Excerpt: An experiment,, has for the first time demonstrated Albert Einstein’s original conception of “spooky action at a distance” using a single particle. ,,Professor Howard Wiseman and his experimental collaborators,, report their use of homodyne measurements to show what Einstein did not believe to be real, namely the non-local collapse of a (single) particle’s wave function.,, According to quantum mechanics, a single particle can be described by a wave function that spreads over arbitrarily large distances,,, ,, by splitting a single photon between two laboratories, scientists have used homodyne detectors—which measure wave-like properties—to show the collapse of the wave function is a real effect,, This phenomenon is explained in quantum theory,, the instantaneous non-local, (beyond space and time), collapse of the wave function to wherever the particle is detected.,,, “Einstein never accepted orthodox quantum mechanics and the original basis of his contention was this single-particle argument. This is why it is important to demonstrate non-local wave function collapse with a single particle,” says Professor Wiseman. “Einstein’s view was that the detection of the particle only ever at one point could be much better explained by the hypothesis that the particle is only ever at one point, without invoking the instantaneous collapse of the wave function to nothing at all other points. “However, rather than simply detecting the presence or absence of the particle, we used homodyne measurements enabling one party to make different measurements and the other, using quantum tomography, to test the effect of those choices.” “Through these different measurements, you see the wave function collapse in different ways, thus proving its existence and showing that Einstein was wrong.” http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html Of note: Since the materialistic many worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics denies wave function collapse, the preceding experiment also falsifies the materialistic conjecture of many worlds. Quantum Weirdness and God 8-9-2014 by Paul Giem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7HHz14tS1c
I suggest you get new textbooks! :) Moreover, as to your quip that you are more mathematically adept than I am at understanding mathematics, I note, with a wry smile, the fact that you use mathematics to describe the universe is in itself proof that this universe is dependent on a beyond space and time cause for its continued existence (and is also proof that you have a transcendent component to your being that is not reducible to material particles):
An Interview with David Berlinski - Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time …. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.html “Geometry is unique and eternal, a reflection from the mind of God. That mankind shares in it is because man is an image of God.” – Johannes Kepler
Thus, since you are so purposely misleading with this evidence, perhaps you can forgive me for putting your criticisms in the same box as all other dogmatic atheists? In other words, I don't buy your claim that you are merely a 'weak atheist'. In fact, I hold you to be purposely deceptive and just as bad as Zach! I wish it were not so since the consequences are far more drastic than you can possibly imagine.
"I knew for certain there was no such thing as life after death. Only simple minded people believed in that sort of thing. I didn't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell, or any other fairy tales. I drifted into darkness. Drifting asleep into anihilation.,,(Chapter 2 - The Descent),, I was standing up. I opened my eyes to see why I was standing up. I was between two hospital beds in the hospital room.,,, Everything that was me, my consciousness and my physical being, was standing next to the bed. No, it wasn't me lying in the bed. It was just a thing that didn't have any importance to me. It might as well have been a slab of meat in the supermarket",,, Howard Storm - former hard-core atheist - Excerpt from his book, 'My Descent Into Death' (Page 12-14) http://books.google.com/books?id=kd4gxtQAeq8C&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false The Near Death Experience of Howard Storm: Parts I & II- The Chains We Forge in Life/Rescue - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsyWGPoMiMI
bornagain77
March 28, 2015
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BA77,
wallstreeter, I would not be so quick to think that daveS was being totally honest towards the evidence. The reason why I doubt his sincerity? Well, in post 31 daveS made several contradictory, i.e. ‘waffle’, claims in regards to what the atheistic and Theistic view of ‘mind’ are.
Would you care to be specific? I just reread that post and don't see any contradictions in it.
wallstreeter, I hold that it is simply impossible for anyone who is truly honest with the evidence, and who is truly seeking, to still be an atheist in this day and age. Why do I say that? Well, I mentioned that both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, have confirmed, in over the top fashion, the Theistic predictions of the universe being created from a timeless/spaceless realm, and for the universe being ‘sustained’ from a timeless/spaceless realm.
Heh. I have basic relativity and QM textbooks right here (Schutz and Shankar), but don't recall anything in them resembling what you are claiming. "Timeless/spaceless realm 'sustaining' the universe"? Do you have a textbook reference to any of this? Or a non-youtube reference where the actual physicists describe this interpretation? And while I'm asking, how much experience do you have actually _doing_ QM or GR? Have you ever calculated the wave equation for a particle in an infinite potential well? Do you know what a tensor product is?
wallstreeter, if daveS were truly honest towards the evidence at hand then would he not readily admit that these are stunning confirmations of Theistic predictions and disconfirmation of atheistic predictions? With such over the top confirmation of Theism, daveS should, if he were remotely reasonable, at least be agnostic on the matter of Theism, but no, he claims he is still atheistic in his beliefs.
I would label myself as an agnostic atheist or weak atheist, to be clear.
Thus the lead investigator himself, of the ‘suspended picture’ study, Parnia found evidence that ‘seemed very credible’. Perhaps not exactly scientifically ‘compelling’ evidence, as the evidence for the beginning of the universe now is, but it certainly very interesting, and even ‘credible’, evidence that warrants a closer look.
I would agree that it warrants a second look, particularly if they can get more data from the suspended picture part.daveS
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter43,
Dave , have I peaked yoir curiousity yet on the Nde's?
I do find the case you described interesting. I think there are serious issues that can be raised with the study, for example the fact that one of the interviews occurred roughly a year after the event. I probably won't be persuaded until they get some good results from the hidden pictures part of these studies, but nevertheless,I am slightly more curious about nde's than I was.daveS
March 28, 2015
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BA777 , thanks again for putting all that info into a condensed post. Intend to post erratically which makes it hard at times to put all my thoughts into one specific post. Thanks again. And yes concessions from atheists are very hard to get because most of the times there is a bias that is. It so hidden to most of us here . The beauty of nde researchers are that most of them were atheist/materialists who came to believe in the soul through nde research . Another part of it that makes it extremely difficult for atheists to wiggle out of is that most of the times atbeists like to pull out the "Christian Card" meaning that once all else fails in refuting the evidence they will claim that the scientists or researcher were Christian creationists and skewed the results in favor of their worldview . Doctor long was a pure materialists is now a oneness monist As is doctor Pim van Lommel Doctor sam parnia is an agnostic and while he is the most conservative of the bum he is sounding awefully spiritual these days ;) The other tactic atheists use is to attack the credibility of the person making The claims as was done to doctor eben Alexander who was attacked this way by sam Harris , but when eben Alexander challenged sam Harris to a debate on skpetiko about his nde , suddenly sam Harris has no time to do it lol. Nde's are so compelling that even non Christians can see the powerful evidence , but they also favor the idealism interpretation of quantum physics instead of the ridiculous many worlds interpretation which states that there are only many material wotlds . Materialists are finding it harder and harder to hide from these evidences but there must be a crack at the academic level , because as I showed with the patricia churchland interview , these ancient "brain equals mind " theories are still being taught at our universities on a popular level , but the evidence from Nde's totally refutes them .wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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In fact, overall we find these instances of 'different visual perspectives' to be somewhat common to NDEers (48%):
“A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007).” Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
Moreover, in considering these 'suspended picture' tests of Parnia, (that were done in only 18 hospital emergency rooms), there are mitigating circumstances to be considered that suggest that the attention of NDErs would not necessarily be drawn towards 'suspended pictures'. For instance, besides the 'suspended picture', there also happens to be a dead body in the emergency room that just so happens to belong to the person having the NDE! Not a small caveat! As well, there are, of course, the frantic activities of the hospital staff who are trying to resuscitate the NDEer. That the attention would not necessarily be drawn to a 'suspended picture' is understandable. Moreover, many NDEers report completely losing interest as to what is happening in this world as their attention is drawn towards the heavenly paradise, i.e. 'the tunnel', that is before them. In the following interview with reporter Bob Woodward, (who also had his own NDE due to a roadside bomb), Mary Jo Rapini, at the 5:40 minute mark, states to Woodward:
"When I was going up I knew my body was back there. Like I caught a glimpse of it.,,, I didn't really care about it (my body). I had no desire to go (back),,, I wasn't afraid at all." Mary Jo Rapini Mary Jo Rapini Sees the Light - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylcjjhvvddE
Thus, we have much evidence to support that events were seen during NDEs that could not have possibly been seen by the people while they were in their body, and we also have very reasonable mitigating circumstances as to why the 'suspended pictures' would not necessarily draw the attention of people having NDEs. Moreover, I hold that even if a person happened to see a 'suspended picture' during one these NDEs that that evidence, in and of itself, would also be attacked by some dogmatic atheists as has all other evidence for NDEs been. The evidentary standards of dogmatic atheists are simply completely unfair when it comes to fairly evaluating NDEs. Neurosurgeon Dr. Michael Egnor notes the double standard that atheists use whenever they evaluate the evidence for NDEs as compared to when they evaluate evidence for neo-Darwinian evolution:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
Thus wallstreeter, I don't buy for a second that daveS is truly being fair to the evidence since he has not demonstrated an ability to be fair to the evidence thus far. And, It will take far more than a few superficial concessions in a debate format to convince me otherwise. Atheists, especially on blogs, have simply lost all credibility with me. Verse and Music:
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Third Day - Cry Out To Jesus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmVxRl5bc4Y
Supplemental notes:
Higher Dimensional Special Relativity, Near Death Experiences, Biophotons, and the Quantum Soul https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XGuV7FWwaDag4T5glstQWjsQNtWHKw3T9qLF14fUHHo/edit Two very different ‘eternities’ revealed by physics: Special Relativity, General Relativity, Heaven and Hell https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4cQ7MXq8bLkoFLYW0kq3Xq-Hkc3c7r-gTk0DYJQFSg/edit
bornagain77
March 28, 2015
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wallstreeter you state in regards to daveS
Thank you for being honest, I guess some atheists are actually seeking .
wallstreeter, I would not be so quick to think that daveS was being totally honest towards the evidence. The reason why I doubt his sincerity? Well, in post 31 daveS made several contradictory, i.e. 'waffle', claims in regards to what the atheistic and Theistic view of 'mind' are. In other words, he was not forthright in regards to his own atheistic premises. Premises which hold 'mind/consciousness' to be merely a property of the brain and to not be its own independent entity with causal power as is held in Theism. (i.e. hold on to your wallet when atheist insist on using definitions that are vague to the point of meaningless) But most importantly as to my doubting his sincerity in his claim that he is willing to be honest to the evidence, in post 31 he also states:
"Well, I will admit to being an atheist."
wallstreeter, I hold that it is simply impossible for anyone who is truly honest with the evidence, and who is truly seeking, to still be an atheist in this day and age. Why do I say that? Well, I mentioned that both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, have confirmed, in over the top fashion, the Theistic predictions of the universe being created from a timeless/spaceless realm, and for the universe being 'sustained' from a timeless/spaceless realm.
https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/rupert-sheldrake-talks-about-herd-mentality-in-science/#comment-556395
Moreover, although atheistic neo-Darwinists have no evidence that unguided material processes can create even one molecular machine (Behe), we find the complexity of molecular biology to be 'almost beyond belief':
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html
wallstreeter, if daveS were truly honest towards the evidence at hand then would he not readily admit that these are stunning confirmations of Theistic predictions and disconfirmation of atheistic predictions? With such over the top confirmation of Theism, daveS should, if he were remotely reasonable, at least be agnostic on the matter of Theism, but no, he claims he is still atheistic in his beliefs. I find such inconsistency in his stated beliefs and the actual evidence in hand to be devoid of credibility. Even Anthony Flew, the world's leading intellectual atheist for most of his adult life, said that this present evidence supports Theism and he, honestly, changed his beliefs accordingly:
"I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite intelligence. I believe that the universe's intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science." Anthony Flew - world's leading intellectual atheist for most of his adult life until a few years shortly before his death The Case for a Creator - Lee Strobel
So apparently scientific evidence has been of little value in forming daveS's beliefs thus far, so why should we believe that he will, all of the sudden, start being honest in regards to NDEs now? I simply find his claim to be devoid of credibility! But in regards to the actual evidence at hand, just how reliable is it apart from daveS's bias? Well, we find that Parnia himself was 'lead investigator' of the 'suspended picture' study:
Seeking Proof in Near-Death Claims - Oct. 2010 Excerpt: At 18 hospitals in the U.S. and U.K., researchers have suspended pictures, face up, from the ceilings in emergency-care areas. The reason: to test whether patients brought back to life after cardiac arrest can recall seeing the images during an out-of-body experience. People who have these near-death experiences often describe leaving their bodies and watching themselves being resuscitated from above, but verifying such accounts is difficult. The images would be visible only to people who had done that. "We've added these images as objective markers," says Sam Parnia, a critical-care physician and lead investigator of the study,,, http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304248704575574193494074922
So Parnia himself was lead investigator of the 'suspended picture' test. And per wallstreeter, here are the results of the tests:
First hint of 'life after death' in biggest ever scientific study - 2014 Excerpt: they found that nearly 40 per cent of people who survived described some kind of ‘awareness’ during the time when they were clinically dead before their hearts were restarted. One man even recalled leaving his body entirely and watching his resuscitation from the corner of the room. Despite being unconscious and ‘dead’ for three minutes, the 57-year-old social worker from Southampton, recounted the actions of the nursing staff in detail and described the sound of the machines. “We know the brain can’t function when the heart has stopped beating,” said Dr Sam Parnia, a former research fellow at Southampton University, now at the State University of New York, who led the study. “But in this case, conscious awareness appears to have continued for up to three minutes into the period when the heart wasn’t beating, even though the brain typically shuts down within 20-30 seconds after the heart has stopped. “The man described everything that had happened in the room, but importantly, he heard two bleeps from a machine that makes a noise at three minute intervals. So we could time how long the experienced lasted for. “He seemed very credible and everything that he said had happened to him had actually happened.” Of 2060 cardiac arrest patients studied, 330 survived and of 140 surveyed, 39 per cent said they had experienced some kind of awareness while being resuscitated,,, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html
Thus the lead investigator himself, of the 'suspended picture' study, Parnia found evidence that 'seemed very credible'. Perhaps not exactly scientifically 'compelling' evidence, as the evidence for the beginning of the universe now is, but it certainly very interesting, and even 'credible', evidence that warrants a closer look. And when we look closer, and expand our survey of the evidence, we find that there are many such cases as what Parnia had noted. Perhaps the most famous example of 'seeing stuff' in the operating room while being out of the body, one that has been attacked by atheists, is that of Pam Reynolds's NDE
The extremely ‘monitored’ NDE of Pam Reynolds – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k
Of related note: Dr. Jeffrey Long debunks atheist Dr. Woerlee’s anesthesia awareness hypothesis of Pam Reynold's NDE here:
Excerpt: ”Dr. Jeffrey Long: Again, I emphasize that anesthetic-awareness is very rare under anesthesia. By the way, I’m not aware of any near-death experiences that occurred under general anesthesia on the NDERF website that described the typical content of anesthetic-awareness experiences. Dr. Woerlee brings up a few anecdotal discussions about anesthetic-awareness but I have a number of references. These are the scholarly people that have actually studied a number of anesthetic-awareness experiences and published them in peer-reviewed journals in the past. That’s my source of that. As all of your listeners can easily see, you just don’t have near-death experiences that are predominantly hearing but no vision. You don’t essentially ever have near-death experiences that involve brief, fragmented experiences that are painful or frightening. In fact, none of the general anesthesia near-death experiences that I reviewed had any of those components of them. Really, there’s no doubt about that. These are completely different experiences. That being anesthetic-awareness and near-death experiences. I don’t think Dr. Woerlee quite got that point how clear that was; how crystal clear the distinction between those two types of experiences is.”” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/stephen-hawking-says-intelligent-design-of-the-universe-is-highly-probable/#comment-553792
The following is on par with Pam Reynolds Near Death Experience. In the following video, Dr. Lloyd Rudy, a pioneer of cardiac surgery, tells the amazing stories, and accurate recollections, of two patients who came back to life after being declared dead, and the uncanny details they told him about what they had seen when they were supposedly ‘dead’ (in fact, one was known to be dead, no heartbeat, for approx. 30 minutes).
Famous Cardiac Surgeon’s Stories of Near Death Experiences in Surgery http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1oDuvQR08
Then there was the famous 'blue tennis shoe', seen by the NDEer as she floated above the hospital, that was subsequently found on the ledge of a 3rd floor hospital window:
Kim Clark Finds the Tennis Shoe and Proves Near Death Experiences Are Real https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPXK2Ls-xzQ
Here is another very credible testimony of a young woman seeing her mother and grandmother smoke cigarettes for the very first time in their lives in the hospital smoking area, (because they were so nervous about their daughter), whilst the young woman was supposedly in the emergency room:
Michaela’s Amazing NEAR death experience – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTcHWz6UMZ8
bornagain77
March 28, 2015
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Dave , have I peaked yoir curiousity yet on the Nde's? ;)wallstreeter43
March 28, 2015
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