Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

KU’s New Class — Creationism, Intelligent Design and Other Religious Mythologies

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[Updated links 30nov05:
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/13286369.htm
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Creationism_Class.html]

[From a colleague:] The University of Kansas is flexing its anti-religion muscle again, this time by announcing the introduction of a new course in the Religion department: “Creationism, Intelligent Design and Other Religious Mythologies.”

To be taught by a professor of religion, no scientists allowed. God forbid that the students would hear both sides of a controversy presented in their strongest terms by experts.

When protestations arise from those who sense a somewhat disengenuous linking of ID (or creationism) with Mythology, the Provost self-righteously says, “The course title is not meant to offend any religion or belief, KU Provost David Shulenburger said Tuesday. He explained in a written statement that “myth” and “mythology” are common in the academic study of religion.”

Right. They know well how to manipulate with slippery terms… they’ve had plenty of practice with “evolution.”

It’s this kind of activity that should stir some legislators to question the extent to which Kansas taxpayers should be funding State-spoonsored faith-bashing.

I have a solution: Let them change the name to “Creationism, Evolutionism and Other Relligious Mythologies.” Now THAT’S a little more balanced.

[snip]

PS. A very telling comment from Boo Tyson of the Mainstream Coalition (a political action group in Kansas City set up to ‘out’ political candidates with hidden, right-wing agendas): “I think it’s a sign of weak faith to try to prove your faith.” So any faith based in fact is a weak faith; the more the objective evidence supports your belief system, the more illigical it is to embrace it. Facts are the enemy of faith. Now that’s a sign of the times.

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http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/13237625.htm

Use of ‘mythologies’ questioned
Intelligent design backers criticize KU course title

By LAURA BAUER
The Kansas City Star
November 23, 2005
Months before a University of Kansas religion course is even taught, its title has riled some who say the school is acting the spoil sport in the evolution debate.

The course, “Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationism and other Religious Mythologies,” will be offered next semester. The goal, university officials say, is to open students up to the many cross-cultural stories of how the world was created.

Those in the intelligent design camp believe it is just KU’s way of degrading the concept. Intelligent design is the belief that some aspects of nature show evidence of being designed by a creator.

“All of a sudden, just from the title, intelligent design is being put in there with mythology,” said Bruce Simat, an associate biology professor at Minnesota’s Northwestern College, who testified on behalf of intelligent design at Kansas hearings in May.

“I think it’s reactionary. I think it’s defensive. I think they are unwilling to study intelligent design head-on.”

For months, Kansas has been embroiled in controversy over what the state should teach its children in the science classroom. Earlier this month, the state board of education adopted new standards that allow for nonnatural explanations and cast doubt on Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution.

The course title is not meant to offend any religion or belief, KU Provost David Shulenburger said Tuesday. He explained in a written statement that “myth” and “mythology” are common in the academic study of religion.

The course will accommodate as many as 120 students. They will be introduced to many different creation stories and be able to make up their own minds on what they believe, university officials say.

What worries John Calvert, an attorney and managing director of Johnson County’s Intelligent Design Network, is whether the course instructor will be educated in the science behind intelligent design.

“… People will be misled and buy the lie,” Calvert said. “But the public is going to see what’s going on. We’re not all fools. Misinformation has a finite life.”

But some, in addition to faculty members at KU, think the class is a good thing.

Boo Tyson of the Mainstream Coalition said she likes that the topic is being taught in a religion curriculum.

“It may be right way to go about this. Let’s have this discussion in religion classes,” Tyson said. “I don’t think creationism or intelligent design belongs in a science classroom. I think it’s a sign of weak faith to try to prove your faith.”

Tyson said that after the course, students should be able to decide for themselves where they fall in the debate.

The nonpartisan coalition, based in Johnson County, works to maintain the separation of church and state.

Shulenburger said the course allows the university to fulfill its obligation to the community and students.

“My concern is that our faculty feels free to go to their disciplines and teach from them on any subject,” Shulenburger said. “Regardless of the controversy associated with it.”

——————————————————————————–
To reach Laura Bauer, call (816) 234-7743 or send e-mail to lbauer@kcstar.com.

Comments
This is what I noted from how this was reported: Paul Mirecki, Professor of Religious Studies in the University of Kansas, has gone down in history for saying some remarkable things about Intelligent Design: (quote) "Creationism is mythology," Mirecki said. "Intelligent design is mythology. It's not science. They try to make it sound like science. It clearly is not." ... John Calvert, an attorney and managing director of the Intelligent Design Network in Johnson County, Kansas, said Mirecki will go down in history as a laughingstock. "To equate intelligent design to mythology is really an absurdity, and it's just another example of labeling anybody who proposes [intelligent design] to be simply a religious nut," Calvert said. "That's the reason for this little charade." (end quote) http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11/22/intelligent.design.course.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest Looking up Paul Mirecki shows that he is erudite in his field and otherwise respected. In the end though, he and others of his ilk may indeed (if they refuse to be balanced) "go down in history as a laughingstock" for their outrageous claims about Intelligent Design theory. JimJimSpace
December 1, 2005
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Dan The irony in Darwin weeding out the secular humanists is priceless.DaveScot
December 1, 2005
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jmcd, I guess you are reading that ridiculous report by the head of one of the Secular Humanist organizations that was released about 3 months ago. The report is laughable and pure propaganda. All I have to tell you is to do a little math and look where secularized Europe is headed with its super low birth rate. Secular Europe is destined to be taken over by Islamic separitists whose birthrate is super high. Also look at how the secular folks in the US are having fewer children, but the traditionalists are having more children. Secularists have more nightmares, shorter lifespans and reproduce less, therefore going to be selected out of the population. DanDan
November 30, 2005
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When the Bill of Rights was being drafted Thomas Jefferson started with the basis of Virginia's "Statute of Religious Freedom". Jefferson had written it himself and the Virginia legislature had passed it in 1786. It declared that "all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion." For the Constitution, James Madison expanded this into, "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or any pretense, infringed." These were the documents used for drafting the First Amendment. The problem was that this particular wording could possibly be twisted and they wanted a firmer statement that was (or at least, should have been) simple to comprehend. This "should" have prevented any particular religion from gaining the upper hand in the government...at least until the whole legal theory of Separation of Church and State came about, which only seems to favor certain religious beliefs in practice. Now the people who claim that the Constitution and Bill of Rights CURRENTLY supports the legal theory of Separation of Church and State are either ignorant or liars. I have no problem if people say they want to CHANGE the existing Constitution and Bill of Rights. They're perfectly within their rights to attempt that; we're a Republic after all. But the deceptive tactics used in actuality are reprehensible.Gumpngreen
November 30, 2005
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Talk about social ills - over 10,000 people died in the 2003 summer heatwave in France. No wonder France didn't want to get bogged down in a war in the Middle East. They need to worry about the war against lack of air conditioners and emergency medical services in their own country first.DaveScot
November 30, 2005
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jmcd "Secularized Europe is suffering from significantly less severe social ills then America." You need to get out more. Old Europe is coming apart at the seams. Unemployment is skyrocketing, GNP is plummeting, and the reproductive rate has fallen below replacement level. Meanwhile radical Islam within old Europe is becoming a force to be reckoned with. America is still the shining city on the hill in comparison.DaveScot
November 30, 2005
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Hmmm....so let us find an atheist anteater and see if he will be our counter-counter example.... I would definately say that religious people have a stronger sense of morality than atheists. They have fear...and fear is powerful...but they also have a stricter sense of morality...that may not serve any particular function in a society. Some christian faiths do not dance...this doesnt really benefit society....so while it is a strong sense of morality...it is not beneficial morality...at least from a societal standpoint. Christians dislike euthanasia...yet euthanasia serves a valuable role in society...it takes a great deal of the strain off of a society...yet Christians believe it whole heartedly.... So in conclusion: Religion and Morality are strongly linked...because Religion often defines morality... however, religion is not the cause of morality...PuckSR
November 29, 2005
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#48, That's a conflation of "social ills" and lack of morality. "My point is that there really is no causation between religiosity and morality" No link at all? That's hard to prove. In fact, it is easy to disprove through one counterexample -- me. My concept of morality is highly linked to my faith (and vice versa, if you use Bayes rule).anteater
November 28, 2005
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Actually Josh that connection is not so clear. Secularized Europe is suffering from significantly less severe social ills then America. I'm not saying yeah Europe or that there is a connection between secularization and good behavior. My point is that there really is no causation between religiosity and morality. Morality exists out of necessity and is in no way dependant on religion. Social ills are much more firmly linked with prosperity or the lack of it.jmcd
November 28, 2005
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sorry Dan...let me explain...you are correct to say that God is not unknown if we know that he is unknown... I am not claiming that God is not known...I am claiming that God is the force behind the unknown. He is the Unknown. This is what ID is claiming(well except that the Designer is the Unknown element in evolution) I was simply explaining that this is a very old belief...most myths are based around gods being the unknown...the rain, the lightning, and the sun. Im still trying to find a good version of the Russian Constitution. I will definately read it when i get a chance...but while i am doing that PaV...perhaps you can help me The fact that the US economy is based on some form of capitalism and the Russian economy was based on Communism...would that make a difference? Also, and since I havent read yet dont bother to correct me if i am wrong...i will correct myself, but doesnt the Russian Constitution lay out less individual rights than the US constitution does in the Bill of Rights. If you are simply referring to the form of elected government that is specified in both constitutions...I would say that a number of factors are more influential than the religious beliefs of a particular nation.puckSR
November 27, 2005
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I can't imagine any danger from a traditional morality based on Christianity in the US. We've seen a steady secularization of America and look at kids nowdays, look at network TV everynight, look at the instance of STD's (even among teens), look at so many things that have gone right down the flusher when certain groups in the nation have fought and tried to destroy religion in our everyday lives. No doubt there's a clear connection between the decline of religiosity and the increase in all manner of sordid behaviors.Josh Bozeman
November 27, 2005
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Sorry Puck, I really do not understand what you mean. DanDan
November 27, 2005
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puckSR: It is interesting that you mention Russia. Obviously the Constitution of Russia and that of the United States are drastically different. Russia called for Communism, while America called for Capitalism and Democracy. The political motives of the two nations was drastically different, despite the religious differences. Puck, you're simply wrong. I've read them both. Don't be so stubborn. Read them for yourself.PaV
November 27, 2005
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Puck, You said: "Thank you Josh for explaining why advocating any particular religious viewpoint i.e. Christianity in the US, can become dangerous eventually" Kind of odd, isn't it, that as we become a less overtly Christian nation, over the last 50 years or so, you see religious advocates as more and more dangerous.pmob1
November 27, 2005
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Lutepisc-your right, the pro-God people do constitute a slim majoritypuckSR
November 26, 2005
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Thank you Josh for explaining why advocating any particular religious viewpoint i.e. Christianity in the US, can become dangerous eventuallypuckSR
November 26, 2005
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Dan-This is simple...I didnt claim that God is unknown...I claimed that he is the unknown. Knowledge is power...the way in which i phrase the statement is important. You are correct...God is known if we claim that he is the unknown. However the devices, methods, actions, and realm of influence of God is unknown. Therefore God is the unknown to a believer...at least until a better explanation is proposed. PaV- It is interesting that you mention Russia. Obviously the Constitution of Russia and that of the United States are drastically different. Russia called for Communism, while America called for Capitalism and Democracy. The political motives of the two nations was drastically different, despite the religious differences. It is really funny, i have never heard anyone claim that their belief is the bad, dangerous, harmful, hateful, or negative one....it is always the opposing viewpointpuckSR
November 26, 2005
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One reason Islam is on the rise is that a lot of the numbers are in Muslim nations which stifle religious activity unless it's Islam. You can punished severely for even practicing Christianity in many of these nations. Or another other religion for that matter. A sad state of affairs for such nations. So many of these countries have systematic brainwashing of children into Islam, and a very harsh brand that is very anti-west, anti-semitic, anti-christian, and even somewhat anti-progress. You gotta feel for people in these nations that refuse to adhere to the religious dogma preached by those in the name of Mohammed (who I might add was a mass murderer. Which, clearly, is part of the reason that you find way too many violent adherents of Islam.)Josh Bozeman
November 26, 2005
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Puck: "What about the Hindus, the Daoists, and those of no theistic faith….they do not believe in God…when you consider the total number of religions that do not worship the god of Abraham…they actually outnumber the people who do believe in the god of Abraham in the world." Well, not quite. Christianity and Islam together compose over half the world's population. Islam is often cited as growing faster than Christianity. Statistically it is able to grow at a more accelerated rate because it has fewer adherents than Christianity (i.e., the same numeric growth added to each would represent a higher percentage growth rate for Islam than for Christianity, due to its smaller numbers). Christianity is the largest religion in the world.Lutepisc
November 26, 2005
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puck, How do you know that God is unknown? This is self defeating since you claim to have knowledge of God...I suggest that you take a course in logic. DanDan
November 26, 2005
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When we align the ID-Darwinism debate along conservative-liberal delineations, good things happen. It's a solid bootstrapping technique.anteater
November 26, 2005
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puckSR: Many people fled because of the unpopularity of their religion in their original countries. They did not flee from a national religion…but because of religious intolerance in their home country. The same religious intolerance that we see today. The assumption from the majority religion that might makes right. puckSR, if I may be allowed to read between the lines, I suspect you are one of those who have had to flee from a national religion. But, in this country, those who would use power in a heavy-handed way, are not those of religion. Liberals have suceeded in turning the phrase you used, inside out. For liberals "right" is "might." They think they're right. They're smarter. They're bettter educated. They're more sophisticated. They're more idealistic. In short, they're the "Anointed" (to use Thomas Sowell's term). They KNOW what's "right." And, since they're "right", EVERYONE must listen to them. EVERYONE must follow where they want to go. You make a mistake to trust them. Let me just give you this insight, if I may. Alexis de Tocqueville, a Frenchman who came to the U.S. to study this "experiment" in democracy, wrote a monumental work that still stand the test of time. He studied our various forms of government, at both the local/state level, and the national level. He said that as wisely as the Founders of our nation constructed the Constitution, that which made our system of government work was not its structure, but the religious instincts of its people. When the Cold War between the U.S. and Russia was raging, there were those who pointed out the similarity between the Russian and U.S. Constitutions. Russian atheism, versus the religious instincts of Americans. It was our religious instincts that won out in the end. And, about ID, while it might serve the purposes of, let us say, fundamentalists, it really is about science nonetheless. Again, I've lived a long time, and believe me, what threatens this country is not religious fanaticism from the Right, but ideological fanaticism from the Left. For the Left, "right makes might", and "the ends justify the means." That kind of thinking can lead you to every kind of abuse of power. At least Christians--fundamentalists included--know that there's a difference between right and wrong.PaV
November 26, 2005
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red reader...notice that i used the words explicitly and implicitly PaV wrote: "And attempts to take “In God We Trust” off of U.S. money and currency, who does that “offend”? Christians? What about Muslims? What about Jews? What about Mormons? Don’t they all believe in God? Doesn’t it offend all of these religions? Isn’t “God” what all these religions have in common? Yet, there’s the ACLU hacking away. Why doesn’t that bother you?" Hmmm...good thing you only mentioned religions that worked for your argument. As i was attempting to explain to someone earlier...believing in god is very different from believing in God. God is the judeo-christian deity...a god is any singular deity. All theists believe in at least one god...Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe in a god named God. What about the Hindus, the Daoists, and those of no theistic faith....they do not believe in God...when you consider the total number of religions that do not worship the god of Abraham...they actually outnumber the people who do believe in the god of Abraham in the world. That being said...Im not hostile towards Christians...I am a Christian...but i can see the obvious advantages to keeping any particular religion out of government. The founding fathers were also painfully aware of the need for the seperation. The constitution mentions a "national religion". This is obviously a reference to the Church of England...and where a mistake is made. Many people came to the US to avoid religious persecution...but many did not come from England. Many people fled because of the unpopularity of their religion in their original countries. They did not flee from a national religion...but because of religious intolerance in their home country. The same religious intolerance that we see today. The assumption from the majority religion that might makes right. Dan-God is not unknowable...he is the unknown. re-read..puckSR
November 26, 2005
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How do you know God is unknowable...that is a self defeating statement because if you say that God is unknowable, then you know something about God. I do have to say that you have a lot more guts than alot of other people who just shoot down this Blog without engaging. Though I do not agree with you, atleast you are trying to justify your position. DanDan
November 26, 2005
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puckSR: I want someone deciding my faith who is tolerant of other faiths. Not someone who thinks that everyone but the people who go to his church are “going to hell”. If he thinks I am going to hell…why should he care about me being guilty or not about a petty mortal crime. I wish you'd take your hostility towards Christianity elsewhere. Having said that, in regards to the above quote, may I ask you: How "tolerant" is the ACLU towards my practice of my faith? In other words, where is the intolerance coming from? Do you know of any "Christian" lawyers who are seeking to have a cross put up in every classroom in America? Yet there's the ACLU seeking to have crosses taken down in every part of America. Again, puck, where is the intolerance coming from? Is it the "left", or the "right" that wants to impose its views? And attempts to take "In God We Trust" off of U.S. money and currency, who does that "offend"? Christians? What about Muslims? What about Jews? What about Mormons? Don't they all believe in God? Doesn't it offend all of these religions? Isn't "God" what all these religions have in common? Yet, there's the ACLU hacking away. Why doesn't that bother you? Again, open your eyes.PaV
November 26, 2005
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Puck wrote >>>> ...just because the constitution does not explicitly state “something”; that does not mean that the Supreme Court cannot decide that Constitution implicitly states “something”. Your argument is somewhat backwards. Red Reader
November 26, 2005
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Wow...kneejerk Red Reader: I am a religious person, i think i need to clarify this position because you seem to think that I am not a religious person. I may be wrong, you may realize that i am a very religious person...but i thought i needed to clarify. Next, read what i actually wrote. I only chastised Josh for misrepresenting the football prayer case. Of course a coach is allowed to pray with his team, as you gave me many examples....Josh..read what he wrote Finally...read Article 3, Section 2 of the constitution The Supreme Court gets final say on all constitutional matters, and if they deem that the original constitution provided for the seperation of Church and State, then they have authority under the constitution to do so. Therefore, the Constitution of the United States of America does allow for the Supreme Court to decide on interpretation. ...Strict Constitutionalism... This word is frequently thrown around, and often by people who disagree with the current Supreme Court interpretation of the Constitution. i.e. Seperation of Church and State. If you were arguing that the Supreme Court was being too loose in its interpretation of the Constitution, you would have to argue that they had allowed violation of a clause...i.e. the 1st Amendment....not that they added to the extent of a clause. I dont really know how better to explain this, but just because the constitution does not explicitly state "something"; that does not mean that the Supreme Court cannot decide that Constitution implicitly states "something". Your argument is somewhat backwards.puckSR
November 26, 2005
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Wow! We've really pulled the scab off of this "scientific" debate. Puck, a football coach praying with his team is NOT Congress making a law respecting the establishment of religion, I don't care how you parse it. ONLY Congress was restrained in the founding document of this nation. The First Amendment SPECIFICALLY guaranteed EVERYONE ELSE the liberty to exercise their religious faith whenever, wherever and however they in their own good judgement chose to do. If we err, let's err on the side of liberty not restrictions. And you go on and on about the theoretical "someone" being offended. In today's Houston Chronicle, there was an article titled, Coaches say religion promotes morale and sportsmanship; critics say it puts pressure on players, blurs line between church, state" [see http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/religion/3484313.html ]. It's a story about coaches Bobby Bowden of Florida State University, Mark Richt of Georgia University, Joe Paterno of Penn State. The article points to all kinds of things that you've said are offensive to you or should be offensive to some kid on the team who is afraid to object because he might not get to play. >>>> Bobby Bowden has taken his players to a church in a white community and a church in a black community in the Tallahassee, Fla., area in an effort, he said, to build camaraderie. He writes to their parents in advance, explaining that the trips are voluntary, and that if they object, their sons can stay home without fear of retaliation. He remembers only one or two players ever skipping the outing. Mark Richt, too, has taken his team to churches in the preseason. A devotional service is conducted the night before each game, and there is a prayer service on game day. Both are voluntary, and Richt said he does not attend them. On game days, Penn State players may choose between Catholic and Protestant services or not go at all. Coach Joe Paterno and the team say the Lord's Prayer in the locker room after games. Bowden believes prayer and faith are part of the American way. "Most parents want their boys to go to church," he said. "I've had atheists, Jews, Catholics and Muslims play for me, and I've never not started a boy because of his faith. I'm Christian, but all religions have some kind of commandments, and if kids would obey them, the world would be a better place." >>> He (Mark Richt) has one supporter with a different perspective (from Barry Lynn): Musa Smith, a rookie running back for the NFL's Baltimore Ravens, who played at Georgia. Smith was reared a Muslim and did not attend chapel services with his teammates. When he did pray with them, he stuck to his own prayers. Smith said he was inspired by the example set by Richt. "At the end of the day, it was about strengthening your spiritual foundations and to walk in a righteous way in whatever you believe," Smith said. "It reminded me of my fundamentals and made me a better person." Neither Richt nor Bowden drinks alcohol or smokes, and both adhere to a spiritual regimen. Richt reads a chapter of Proverbs a day, and prays between meetings and before interviews; Bowden begins his day at 4 a.m. with an hour of reading the Bible and is known for offering fiery church sermons. Each believes that by exemplifying his religious values he can develop not only better players but also better students, sons, husbands and fathers. Center David Castillo, who is in his final season at FSU, said Bowden has been sensitive to the diversity of his players. The pre-game and post-game prayers Bowden leads are nondenominational and directed at the safety of both teams and those traveling to see them, Castillo said. "He tells us that he doesn't care if we don't believe what he does," said Castillo, who is preparing for medical school. "But he wants us to believe in something." Red Reader
November 26, 2005
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Puck, "liberal mind" Isn't that oxymoronic?pmob1
November 26, 2005
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pmob: I want someone with a liberal mind about religion deciding my fate. There is a difference between believing your faith to be correct, and believing in the total superiority of your faith. I want someone deciding my faith who is tolerant of other faiths. Not someone who thinks that everyone but the people who go to his church are "going to hell". If he thinks I am going to hell...why should he care about me being guilty or not about a petty mortal crime.puckSR
November 26, 2005
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