Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ken Miller in Birmingham

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Noted Brown University biologist and slayer of windmills, Kenneth Miller, came to Birmingham, Alabama, on Thursday November 5. The room was packed with what seemed to be about 200 (mostly students and some faculty). Overall, Miller displayed the affable but subliminally arrogant attitude I’ve come to expect in some academics. Miller began by giving a long list of his publications interspersed along with some obligatory self-deprecating humor, the apparent take-home message being “look at what a smart and prolific boy I am.” He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.” After giving a wholly inaccurate definition of ID as the idea that “design in the form of outside intelligent intervention is required to account for the origin of living things,” he launched into the bulk of his lecture most of which simply gave examples of common descent as “proof” of Darwinian evolution.  I must say that I was surprised by the degree to which Miller absolutely savaged ID. It’s not that he simply disagrees with ID, the substance of his message was that ID is a creationist group (no one was mentioned by name) with the Discovery Institute as its front organization working (in his words) “against scientific rationality.” The thrust of his ID comments were wholly denigrating and dismissive.  Miller later admitted that evolution was the product of “design in nature” in search of “adaptive spaces.” His discussion of design was frankly bizarre; at times he almost sounded like a Gaia proponent—I couldn’t figure out if by design he meant just some sort of unfolding or self-direction or if “design” was somehow synonymous with natural selection. The entire presentation in this regard was quite fuzzy.  There was a lot of conflation of concepts—my personal favorite being his conflation of evolution, genetics, and Gregor Mendel. Anyone listening to Miller on this would have thought that Mendel was simply carrying Darwin’s ideas forward; he did not, of course, point out that Darwin’s adherence to pangenesis and the notion of inheritance of acquired characteristics was quite different from that of Mendel. The rest was pretty predictable.

I finally did get to ask Miller a question. It was the second to last one, and Miller was pretty euphoric having hit a series of Q & A home runs from softballs pitched at T-ball speeds mostly by students. The good thing was that by the time I got to pose my question a lot of questioners had prefaced their questions with comments (mostly “thank you, thank you, for supporting theism and science,” “oh what an important struggle we have before us promoting good science, your presentation was marvelous,” etc., etc.). I started by saying that I sincerely wished that this country could get away from this overly simplistic “evolution versus creation” discourse as unhistorical and unhelpful. We talk about evolution as though Wallace and Mivart never existed. Then I said, “Dr. Miller, as you well know, Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of natural selection, broke with Darwin over the role of natural selection in creating the human mind. Wallace didn’t think it could account for it; Mivart agreed. Now these objections are still with us today. They haven’t gone away. Surely you’re familiar with the April issue of Nature in which Bolhuis and Wynne asked, ‘Can evolution explain how minds work?’. Don’t we have an educational obligation to give the WHOLE story of evolution? I mean we talk about evolution as if it was simply the story of Darwin and science on the march when, if fact, many of the original objections raised to his theory remain today. This is Whiggish history of the worst kind! How can we get past this and tell the more complete and accurate story of evolution? ” Miller replied by nodding in apparent approval, which seemed inappropriate given his presentation, but then simply didn’t answer the question. The upshot of his reply was to utter some vague generalizations about the Templeton Foundation and that he was working with them on this very thing. Huh??

Well that’s my report. I must say Miller is an engaging and powerful speaker. His points are persuasive to the uninformed and although I have no objection to his having his say in a free markeplace of ideas, I suspect that he does considerable intellectual damage where ever he goes.

Comments
Mung and scrofulous:
NDE predicts that the sex ratio in most species should be one male for every female.
I wasn't aware of this as a specific prediction but observation does conclude that *most* species display an approximate 1:1 sex ratio (the Fisherian sex ratio)- this is an average though and there are plenty of species that diverge from this. If selection pressures favour a ratio that diverges from this equilibrium then you tent to see that reflected in the population.BillB
November 11, 2009
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scrofulous:
NDE predicts that the sex ratio in most species should be one male for every female.
NDE is therefore falsified.Mung
November 11, 2009
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Scrofulous, “Decided to drop your claim about the “oughts”, eh, Upright? Heh.” Hardly. - - - - - - “Out of all the imperfect designs the creator could have chosen, why did he pick one that makes evolutionary theory appear to be correct?” What is the core basis of this question? Allow me to help (although I cannot imagine that you couldn’t figure this out for yourself): If evolution is correct then it ought to look like evolution is correct. If it was designed it ought to look like it was designed. So why does it look like evolution is correct, if it was designed? Because if it was designed, it ought to look like it. Now let me incorporate the issue that went completely over your head from my previous post: If evolution is correct then it ought to look like evolution is correct. If it was designed, then the designer ought to have made it look like design was correct. So why does it look like evolution is correct if it was designed by a designer? If a designer picked the design, then... ”why did he pick one that makes evolutionary theory appear to be correct?” - - - - - - "Be brave, Upright. Face the question head-on" Since it was your question, I think you should have gone first.Upright BiPed
November 11, 2009
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Relatedness does not necessarily imply a nested hierarchy.
Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that this statement is true. If it is true that "relatedness does not necessarily imply a nested hierarchy," then it is also true that descent (relatedness) with or without modification predicts a nested hierarchy.
Science is about what is, not about what ought to be.
This is a false view of science. Simply, if A is true, it ought to be that case that...Mung
November 11, 2009
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Since you’re evidenttly struggling to discern the parallels between the two arguments (or more likely struggling not to discern them), here are some clues: 1. Fava = Mung
GREAT! An actual asserted correlation! (Unlike anything else you've said.)
Mung: The Pendulum God makes pendulums move.
Um, no. I don't think I've ever made such a claim, or anything resembling such a claim. Feel free to present evidence to the contrary.
Mung: I don’t know. He just does. What else could cause pendulums to move?
Um, no. I don't think I've ever made such a claim, or anything resembling such a claim. Feel free to present evidence to the contrary.
Mung: That’s ridicculous. A force acting between mindless masses at a distance? Give me a break. Those forces are clearly caused by the Pendulum God.
Um, no. I don't think I've ever made such a claim, or anything resembling such a claim. Feel free to present evidence to the contrary. At this point, I am, going to avail myself of a BASEBALL ANALOGY. THREE STRIKES! YOU'RE OUT!Mung
November 11, 2009
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Scrofulous, I wish I could fathom how to use the quote feature here. "Who refuted it? In what comment? " Murray at 111. (designer would not use nested hierarchy) As to why he would make it look like NDE is true, I think it never ocurred to him that we would look at this universe and the life forms and believe they organized themselves. "First of all, why couldn’t a designer choose to create unrelated life forms if he wanted to? He might not find it as “odd and unnatural” as you do." Who knows what he could and couldn't do? Why speculate like that? What I see from many people is a kind of magical thinking about God as something separate from the natural world. As though his influence is only by special interference. God manifests a universe and the laws of nature and permeates everything. If God were separate from nature, how would he work with it? Why the discrete jumps in evolution of life forms? Probably a periodic infusion of intelligent divine energy and/or frontloading. There's no such thing as something not being a natural process. There are only processes we don't understand and whose origin or periodicity we have not discerned. I don't believe that God ever suspends the laws of physics. Why would he? Augustine, I think, said "Nature is what God does." We would do well to contemplate that. The life forms unfold, in discrete jumps, and that is no doubt because that is how things work and how they were set up to work. Why create a setup and then circumvent it? "Second, you’re confusing relatedness with the nested hierarchy. Relatedness does not necessarily imply a nested hierarchy. For example, car designs are often related, but they don’t fall into a single nested hierarchy." According to many good posts here, life may not be a nested hierarchy. I see no problem either way. "Science is about what is, not about what ought to be." You misunderstood my intent. I was not using ought in a moral way. I meant that it makes the most intuitive sense based upon reality. Scrofulous, you should make note of the difference between a design inference (post 196) and the designer, but in your defense, the question is not unrelated and may be required psychologically for ID to be acceptable.avocationist
November 11, 2009
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scrofulous, man...you just do not get it do you? - - - - - - ALL (as in all) of your questions about the motivations, methods, choices, hair color, and favorite ice cream of the designer are not applicable to ID. Can you not undertsand this? Really, take a moment from the heavy lifting you've been doing on this board trying to prove how ID is false and THINK about it for just a minute. Give yourself a pep talk. ID is about recognizing the design...IT IS NOT ABOUT THE DESIGNER. Well, NO you say, that can't be! Yes it is, and there is a fundamental reason why. The reason is really about having discipline (and of course, having discipline is what our opponents are sorry at). Lean in and I'll tell you the secret you missed at whatever propagada board you've been hanging out on. Here is the reason all of your questions are irrelavent: ID is science. Science is empirical Empericism is about evidence There is tons of evidence for design But the is nothing in the evidence about the designer. THEREFORE... ID cannot say anything about the designer, but can damn sure say a lot about the design. - - - - - - Now, I know that everything I just said will go right past you because you have proven that you are a rather common materialist voicebox whom is (not so uniquely) inaccessible to evidence. However, if you'd like to have some fun, then allow this group to start asking you the questions and just see how well you do.Upright BiPed
November 10, 2009
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The one I quoted in #192:
The question: If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies? There are a zillion other ways he could have done it. Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?
scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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"Incidentally, no one has answered the question I posed. How about you" What question?jerry
November 10, 2009
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Mark Frank, Go to Itunes U on Itunes and then select Stanford University. Under the first category, Stanford courses, click it to expand the selection. The very last course is a special lecture series on Darwin and evolution. You can download all or whatever you wish. They are free. There is a lecture by the Grants and it is well done and fascinating. In it Rosemary Grant says, I believe, 32 million years but the actual figure in their reports is 22 million. There is a long discussion on speciation too. There are evolution courses on Itunes from Berkeley, Yale, MIT and I just saw a new short one from UCLA. Nothing in any of them contradicts ID though most will disparage it. I have yet to see any book on evolution or course on it that has evidence to support the naturalistic approach for macro evolution or falsify ID. If you can find it anywhere, then I suggest you present it. It is the eternal challenge that is unmet here. The best there is seems to be circumstantial evidence for some kind of naturalistic process but there is nothing to support gradualism.jerry
November 10, 2009
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Upright Biped:
You repeatedly asked ID proponents why the designer didn’t do this or that based on what you think he/she/it OUGHT to have done...
No, I asked them why the designer chose the particular method he did out of the vast number of alternatives available:
The question: If life is designed, why did the designer use a methodology that produces consistent nested hierarchies? There are a zillion other ways he could have done it. Why pick one that makes undirected evolution appear to be true?
There's nothing in that question about what he ought to have done. I'm asking why he did what he did. It's obvious, though I don't suppose you'll admit you were wrong. Incidentally, no one has answered the question I posed. How about you, Upright?scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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189 Sure...right You repeatedly asked ID proponents why the designer didn't do this or that based on what you think he/she/it OUGHT to have done, or what the evidence OUGHT to say, or what OUGHT to have been a better this and that. But...go ahead and stay with your story. It sounds good if you say it fast enough (and don't think too much about it).Upright BiPed
November 10, 2009
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bornagain77:
Why don’t you listen to the evidence Scoff?
I should be asking you that question, bornagain.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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Upright Biped, There is no contradiction, because those are "why" questions, not "ought" questions. If I ask "Why did John Brown attack at Harpers Ferry," I'm neither asking about nor implying what he ought to have done.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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Why don't you listen to the evidence Scoff?bornagain77
November 10, 2009
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ScottAndrews, I'm still awaiting your answer to the question I posed in #166:
Don’t dodge the question. Looking at independent data sets, biologists have produced nested hierarchies that agree with each other to 38 decimal places of precsion. Explain to us how that is possible if the nested hierarchy is not real.
scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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scrofulous: "Science is about what is, not about what ought to be" - - - - - - scrofulous: “Why, then, did the creator place…” “Why did he want to make it…” “…then why didn’t the designer…” “If He’s willing…then why not …” “…could have done it, but for some reason…” “…but he keeps choosing to do things in a way…” “..why would the creator choose to make …” “Why is the creator …” “…the creator could have chosen, why did he pick…” “…that the designer for unknown reasons…” “…come up with some reason why the designer chose…” “…why did the designer use a …” “…other ways he could have done it…” “…Why pick one that makes …” “…And why does he never …” “…why couldn’t a designer choose …”Upright BiPed
November 10, 2009
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Mung:
Everything is accommodated within your theory, therefore it cannot be disconfirmed. Not only does it not explain phenomena that it should explain, but the phenomena that it does explain (and the opposite of that phenomena) can be explained in the same terms.
Let's see about that. NDE predicts that the sex ratio in most species should be one male for every female. You claim that NDE predicts anything and everything. According to you, then, NDE also predicts that the sex ratio should be five males for every female. Let's see you back up your claim, Mung. Using nothing but Darwinian principles, show us how NDE predicts a sex ratio of five males per female.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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jitsak: It is a general explanation. In individual cases the explanation can be narrowed down. Since your claim is stated plurally, please refer to case in which each of the "known" causes of speciation applied. I don't think anyone would make such a claim unless there were plenty of such cases. But if you have a better explanation, I’m all ears. This isn't a science fiction writing contest.ScottAndrews
November 10, 2009
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Avocationist:
I noticed in 156 that you continue to claim that ID (or creationism) would not predict a nested hierarchy, even though another poster elegantly refuted that.
Who refuted it? In what comment?
I would find it odd and unnatural for the designer to create unrelated life forms.
First of all, why couldn't a designer choose to create unrelated life forms if he wanted to? He might not find it as "odd and unnatural" as you do. Second, you're confusing relatedness with the nested hierarchy. Relatedness does not necessarily imply a nested hierarchy. For example, car designs are often related, but they don't fall into a single nested hierarchy.
Further, although I support ID, I envision a naturally unfolding process. All life ought to be organically related.
Science is about what is, not about what ought to be.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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So what scrofulous is saying is that if we ignore reality and substitute acid-driven imagination for actual science, the NDE is useful. Also it too bad scrofulous conflates alleged evidence for Common Descent for alleged evidence for a mechanism/ mechanisms.Joseph
November 10, 2009
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7. ID predicts nothing except that some things are designed.
Wrong again. ID predicts that designers leave traces of their activity behind and that we can then detect those traces. ID predicts that not everything is reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity.
9. NDE predicts the nested hierarchy, as well as dozens of other important and interesting phenomena.
No it does not for the many reasons already provided. That you have failed to address those reasons tells me that you haven't a clue and are just blindly parroting a propaganda website. You can't even provide a testable hypothesis based on random mutations and natural selection. And that says quite a bit more about your position than anything I could ever say.Joseph
November 10, 2009
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jistak, With nested hierarchies the levels consist of and contain all lower levels. For example the animal kingdom- all organisms in the animal kingdom consist of and contain a set of defined characteristics. Then comes the level of the Phyla. Each Phyla in the Animal Kingdom consists of and contain all those characteristics PLUS additional characteristics which define each Phylum. Each Phylum consists of and contains Classes. Each Class consists of and contains all the characteristics of its Phylum PLUS additional characteristics that define each Class. And so on. So once you start losing defining characteristics, which is allowable under the theory of evolution, you lose containment. The ISSS has an article on this: Summary of the Principles of Hierarchy Theory:
Nested and non-nested hierarchies: nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. On the other hand, the general at the top of a military command does not consist of his soldiers and so the military command is a non-nested hierarchy with regard to the soldiers in the army. Pecking orders and a food chains are also non-nested hierarchies.
Perhaps the ISSS doesn't know what it is saying. And perhaps Dr Denton was totally wrong and yet no one dared debate him on that. So what I am saying is perhaps your ignorance is causing some bias of opinion...Joseph
November 10, 2009
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Mung:
The entire hypothetical exchange was incoherent and entirely unrelated to any argument being put forth here.
Mung, Since you're evidenttly struggling to discern the parallels between the two arguments (or more likely struggling not to discern them), here are some clues: 1. Fava = Mung 2. scurrilous = scrofulous 3. Pendulum God Theory = ID 4. Newtonian mechanics = NDE 5. The pendulum's period = the nested hierarchy 6. PGT predicts nothing except that the Pendulum God makes pendulums move. 7. ID predicts nothing except that some things are designed. 8. Newtonian mechanics predicts the period of the pendulum, as well as dozens of other important and interesting phenomena. The predictions have been confirmed. 9. NDE predicts the nested hierarchy, as well as dozens of other important and interesting phenomena. The predictions have been confirmed. 10. Newtonian mechanics doesn't explain everything. Neither does PGT. 11. NDE doesn't explain everything. Neither does ID. 12. Nevertheless, Newtonian mechanics predicts far more than Pendulum God Theory, and its predictions are successful. Pendulum God Theory only predicts that the Pendulum God makes pendulums move. This prediction has never been confirmed. Newtonian mechanics is obviously far superior to PGT. 13. Evolutionary theory predicts far more than ID, and its predictions are successful. ID only predicts that God, I mean the designer, designed some things. This prediction has never been confirmed. Evolutionary theory is obviously far superior to ID. Sorry, Mung, but I can't make it any simpler than that, and Mr. Rogers is no longer available.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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Scofulous, "You’re missed the point. The viability of the intermediates between A and B is irrelevant to the argument. Let me present an even more direct illustration of the problem with Spetner’s claim. Suppose that gene A undergoes a silent mutation that converts a C to a U. According to Spetner, there has been a loss of information. Now gene A experiences another mutation that reverses the first mutation and converts the U back to a C. According to Spetner, there has been a further loss of information. Therefore, by Spetner’s logic, we have lost information by converting A into A. In his world, A has less information than A." No, the viability, from what I recall of the Spetner book I read, was precisely the point. In the cases he cited, the organism lost ability as a trade-off to gain antibiotic resistance, and for the reason would revert back to the original when the life-threatening situation was removed. I do not recall that he ever made a blanket statement that a point mutation in and of itself MUST equal an information loss. I noticed in 156 that you continue to claim that ID (or creationism) would not predict a nested hierarchy, even though another poster elegantly refuted that. I would find it odd and unnatural for the designer to create unrelated life forms. Further, although I support ID, I envision a naturally unfolding process. All life ought to be organically related.avocationist
November 10, 2009
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To affirm the possibility of some event, is not to make a prediction.
With nested hierarchies defining traits MUST BE immutable and additive- evolution does NOT have such a direction.
Well said. Looking forward to the response.Mung
November 10, 2009
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When you say that ID cannot be faulted for failing to explain the nested hierarchy, you are making the same mistake that Fava makes in my example.
The entire hypothetical exchange was incoherent and entirely unrelated to any argument being put forth here. Do you have any substantive response? From henceforth, I shall feel compelled at every possible opportunity that presents itself to point out how there are other theories which better explain evidence which Darwinian theory does not purport to explain, such as the retrograde motion of planets. There is a much better theory to explain this phenomena. Darwinism is such a failure. scrofulous:
You don’t get to pick and choose which evidence to measure a theory against.
I give up. You win. Darwinism fails because it fails to predict how the solar system formed or explain the evidence we have that supports our current theories of solar system formation. You seem to be of a mind that ID should explain everything. ID is not like your theory, which can and does explain everything. ID is actually testable, unlike your theory. But you have to test a theory against the predictions it makes. Your theory, making no predictions, cannot be tested. Everything is accommodated within your theory, therefore it cannot be disconfirmed. Not only does it not explain phenomena that it should explain, but the phenomena that it does explain (and the opposite of that phenomena) can be explained in the same terms.Mung
November 10, 2009
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Mung:
False. You don’t get to measure ID against evidence that’s irrelevant to the claims of ID, as you have repeatedly attempted to do.
Mung, Perhaps an example will help you to understand why your statement makes no sense. Imagine that two blog commenters, 'Fava' and 'scurrilous', are having a conversation:
Fava: The Pendulum God makes pendulums move. scurrilous: Really? How? Fava: I don't know. He just does. What else could cause pendulums to move? scurrilous: Gravity. Fava: That's ridicculous. A force acting between mindless masses at a distance? Give me a break. Those forces are clearly caused by the Pendulum God. scurrilous: I have a better explanation of why pendulums move. It's called Newtonian mechanics. Fava: Are you an atheist? Don't you believe in the Pendulum God? scurrilous: No. Newtonian mechanics is a much better explanation. Not only does it tell us why pendulums move, it predicts their periods! Does Pendulum God Theory do that? Fava: No, but that's irrelevant to whether PGT is a better theory than Newtonian mechanics. scurrilous: It's totally relevant! Newtonian mechanics explains the periods of pendulums, why the planets orbit the Sun, how fast they move at each point, why airplanes fly, why spinning tops don't fall over...(continues for 15 minutes) Fava: Those are all irrelevant. PGT doesn't address them. Why do you keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with PGT? scurrilous: All of those are relevant! It isn't enough for a theory to avoid falsification. It needs to make successful predictions. Newtonian mechanics makes tons of successful predictions. What predictions does PGT make? Fava: It predicts that the Pendulum god makes pendulums move. scurrilous (incredulously): That's it? Fava: PGT is clearly the superior theory.
When you say that ID cannot be faulted for failing to explain the nested hierarchy, you are making the same mistake that Fava makes in my example.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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Someone stated, it takes over 20 million years to form a new species. I would say that figure needs to be revised way upward: God by the Numbers - Charles Edward White Excerpt: "Even if we limit the number of necessary mutations to 1,000 and argue that half of these mutations are beneficial, the odds against getting 1,000 beneficial mutations in the proper order is 2^1000. Expressed in decimal form, this number is about 10^301. 10^301 mutations is a number far beyond the capacity of the universe to generate. Even if every particle in the universe mutated at the fastest possible rate and had done so since the Big Bang, there still would not be enough mutations." http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/march/26.44.html?start=2 Waiting Longer for Two Mutations, Part 5 - Michael Behe Excerpt: the appearance of a particular (beneficial) double mutation in humans would have an expected time of appearance of 216 million years, http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/03/waiting-longer-for-two-mutations-part-5/bornagain77
November 10, 2009
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Explain to us how that is possible if the nested hierarchy is not real.
It does not matter whether it is real or not. That is not what is at issue here.
It does: random mutation and natural selection. The nested hierarchy is a direct consequence of this mechanism.
No, it isn't. You can set up a simulation using those two features of evolutionary theory and prove your case, btw. Might I recommend that you do so?
Evolution can occur without branching. However, speciation (and therefore branching) is predicted by evolutionary theory (ET). Ergo, a nested hierarchy is predicted by ET.
You do not understand your own theory. By your own admission, NDE does not predict that speciation will produce a branching pattern (the two are not synonymous), ergo, a nested hierarchy is not predicted. Since NDE cannot predict that any particular species will branch, it doesn't predict branching at all. What NDE says is, if particular conditions are met, it might happen that... But NDE does not predict that those conditions will happen, nor does it predict that if they do happen, a branching will inevitably take place. It merely affirms the possibility. To affirm the possibility of some event, is not to make a prediction.Mung
November 10, 2009
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