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Hypothetical mammal study suggests mammals slept through dinosaurs’ end, 67 mya?

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(One rather hopes so. 😉 )

Anyway, LiveScience reports:

A shrewlike creature in Madagascar that can hibernate for at least nine months of the year without waking may help reveal how mammals survived the cataclysm that ended the age of dinosaurs, researchers suggest.

The researchers created a virtual model, the “Shrëwdinger,” which they claim,

“We have all these placentals alive today, from elephants to shrews, from things that fly to things that swim,” Spaulding said. “What could the common ancestor of these things that are so different possibly look like?”

The scientists then worked with an artist to illustrate this ancestor. In addition to a furry tail, the researchers suggest the four-legged creature likely ate insects, weighed from 6 grams (about the weight of some shrews) up to 245 grams — less than half a pound — and was more adapted for general scampering than built for more specialized forms of movement, such as swinging from trees. Also, its cerebral cortex — the part of the brain linked to higher mental processes — was probably convoluted, folds linked with greater brain activity, the researchers found.

There is no question that the researchers have analyzed a great deal of data, combining genetic and fossil data.

But something feels not quite right about creating a hypothetical (virtual) ancestor. That’s what it is; everyone acknowledges that the Shrëwdinger was invented by the researchers and never actually existed. The 2013 article on the invention is nonetheless headlined, “Meet Your Mama: First Ancestor of All Placental Mammals Revealed.”

Of course, it is possible that, in these times, the distinction between science, art, and science fiction is becoming at best superfluous, and at worst burdensome to maintain.

Incidentally, they argue that the original ancestor of placental mammals developed about 200,000 to 400,000 years after the extinction, 36 million years later than the genetic data suggest. If so, fast work. Probabilities without  new information?

Note: Could the hibernators sleep that long? Despite that force? We are talking about a probable asteroid hit, not a string of bad summers.

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Comments
wd400- there isn't any way to test the claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs, let alone evolved by unguided evolution.Joe
November 5, 2014
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Sheesh. I can't even sleep through a single night!Mung
November 4, 2014
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wd400 - I'm not qualified to evaluate the conflicting claims. In one case, we have a peer-reviewed paper in Journal of Morphology -- Cardio-pulmonary anatomy in theropod dinosaurs: Implications from extant archosaurs. And on the other hand there a blog post disputing the findings and calling into question the integrity of the researchers and stating that the peer-reviewed paper contains factual errors. I don't know how a scientist "makes a career" out of publishing false claims in peer-reviewed journals and why one evolutionary scientist will attack two others as having a "hidden agenda". But I will say that it doesn't make either side sound very convincing and it's yet another example of the contradictions that one can find within the evolutionary community itself. For myself, it's all there, very plain to see. I also find that there are attempts to cover up these sorts of conflicts, in this case, attacking the motives of evolutionary scientists who offer conflicting views. I find it odd, but not surprising, that the blog post you cited closes with a last sentence reading: "Of course, creationists just love what Quick and Ruben have been saying." Strange. It seems like that's the biggest concern the author really has. Does that kind of fear have an impact on the objectivity of the response? Again, I've read a lot of this sort of thing so I've drawn my own conclusions but I try to be open to other points of view. And, in any case - thanks for this follow up and for offering more information on the topic.Silver Asiatic
November 3, 2014
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Silver Asiatic, That's another paper by John Rueben who has made a career out of "Birds aren't dinosaurs because x" papers, none of them being very good. Here's a blog post from the time of the paper, which puts the silly press release in some context.wd400
November 3, 2014
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Joe, to be clear, by "boundary", do you mean the Iridium layer and only the Iridium layer? By "fossils", do you mean giant dinosaur fossils, itty bitty foraminifera fossils, bear fossils, duck fossils, camel fossils, tick fossils, octopus fossils, human fossils, Shrewdinger fossils, plant fossils, whale fossils, ancient alien fossils, Bigfoot fossils, or what? How many do you mean by "many"?Astroman
November 3, 2014
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Joe, please explain your version of what did or didn't happen in regard to the Chicxulub asteroid impact, including but not limited to when it occurred, the local and global effects, the time frames of all effects, the extinction of many life forms, the surviving life forms, the alleged built in responses to environmental cues, the time frames and other details of the subsequent radiation of new species, and more.Astroman
November 3, 2014
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Enkidu said that the impact caused an extinction and the extinction event took some time. Long enough to where the mammals couldn't have hibernated through it. That would mean there should be many fossils in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet they are not there. Why?Joe
November 3, 2014
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Enkidu:
The hypothesis has already been tested and confirmed. Again there are many recent scientific papers with the evidence
What evos accept as science is mind-boggling. How many mutations dod it take? What genes were involved? How many generations? Your science doesn't have any answers. Heck your science doesn't even know what makes a bird a bird nor a dinosaur a dinosaur.Joe
November 3, 2014
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And Enkidu chokes:
It’s impossible to have a productive discussion with someone whose only defense is to toss insults and make the ridiculous claim that such a well documented historical event never happened.
Typical cowardly response. I do NOT deny the event happened. There isn't anything in what I posted that you could infer that slop from. Obviously you have serious issues. Grow up.Joe
November 3, 2014
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Enkidu @42, any time, amigo.Mapou
November 2, 2014
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Mapou Astroman @38, in my view, you’re all a bunch of pompous asses without a pot to piss in. Dirt made you. You are dirt worshipers, no better than the fundamentalists that you despise. You’re just like them. This is why you are here Thank you for that informed and insightful commentary on the OP topic. We're all more knowledgeable on Paleogene mammals because of it.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Astroman @38, in my view, you're all a bunch of pompous asses without a pot to piss in. Dirt made you. You are dirt worshipers, no better than the fundamentalists that you despise. You're just like them. This is why you are here. :-DMapou
November 2, 2014
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Silver Asiatic This goes back a few years Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links Sorry but the ideas put forth in that older paper were overturned by further discoveries made after the paper was published. There's really no longer any doubt in the paleontology community of the bird-theropod dino connection. The only major unknown is when aves branched off the main theropod line. See the 2014 paper I linked to above.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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This goes back a few years Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090609092055.htm Researchers at Oregon State University have made a fundamental new discovery about how birds breathe and have a lung capacity that allows for flight – and the finding means it's unlikely that birds descended from any known theropod dinosaurs. The implication, the researchers said, is that birds almost certainly did not descend from theropod dinosaurs, such as tyrannosaurus or allosaurus. The findings add to a growing body of evidence in the past two decades that challenge some of the most widely-held beliefs about animal evolution. "Frankly, there's a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions," Ruben said. In some museum displays, he said, the birds-descended-from-dinosaurs evolutionary theory has been portrayed as a largely accepted fact, with an asterisk pointing out in small type that "some scientists disagree."Silver Asiatic
November 2, 2014
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"The insufferable elitism and pomposity of Darwinists never cease to amaze me. Talk about superiority complex." Look who's talking, mapou. You God botherers pompously demand that your lazy, elitist, religious beliefs and opinions not only be taken seriously, but that they replace all of the hard won discoveries, methods, evidence, knowledge, technological advances, productive research avenues, beneficial products and services, explanations, etc., of and/or made available by science, except of course for the parts that you want to keep around for your enjoyment, comfort and convenience, weaponry, greed, entertainment, safety, health, and Dominionist agenda.Astroman
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu, "We have no evidence of any Intelligent Designer creating those things". Why are you attempting to change the goalposts, you originally asked, "What do we know about the Intelligent Designer’s design processes.....". You question implies the acceptance of the designer. I answered you and because you have no other response you have to back track. Those games will not work on me. "One of the main arguments in Behe’s book Edge of Evolution is that the Designer was required to give drug-resistance to malaria, that it was too difficult for evolution to do. Look it up". Another back track? But thats ok. I have the book, would you be so kind as to provide a quote from it so I may evaluate it (as I am unsure your statement is true). But again the point was, I only suggested that he was more likely to answer your question than I. "Because we know mammals existed before Chicxulub and we know mammals existed after. That means they existed right through the event and its immediate aftermath". Yes, we know real mammals exist and/or existed, my question was regarding how do we know the computer generated Shrëwdinger imaginary animal is real? "We know what species existed before and after the impact event because of the fossil record. There is lots of evidence tying the impact event to the major mass extinction that immediately followed. The precise mechanisms of the extinction aren’t fully characterized but we know for 100% fact an extinction occurred". Given the previous (in my opinion dubious statements), could you provide some details or links to the evidence, I am genuinely interested. Unfortunately none of this really matters in the main discussion about imaginary ancestors.logically_speaking
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu:
It makes it so to people whose opinions on the subject matter.
The insufferable elitism and pomposity of Darwinists never cease to amaze me. Talk about superiority complex.Mapou
November 2, 2014
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Joe Are you really that much of a coward that you refuse to answer my question and try to deflect from the fact that you cannot It's impossible to have a productive discussion with someone whose only defense is to toss insults and make the ridiculous claim that such a well documented historical event never happened. Your angry outputs can be safely ignored.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Joe It can’t be scientifically tested. The hypothesis has already been tested and confirmed. Again there are many recent scientific papers with the evidence Gradual Assembly of Avian Body Plan Culminated in Rapid Rates of Evolution across the Dinosaur-Bird Transition So perhaps some people think it’s a fact but that doesn’t make it so. It makes it so to people whose opinions on the subject matter.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu:
That extant birds are closely related to theropod dinosaurs is considered a scientifically established fact.
It can't be scientifically tested. So perhaps some people think it's a fact but that doesn't make it so.Joe
November 2, 2014
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“If that were true then we would expect to see many organisms in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet we don’t. Why?” Enkidu:
Are you seriously arguing that the Chicxulub impact event never occurred?
Are you really that much of a coward that you refuse to answer my question and try to deflect from the fact that you cannot? You said that the impact caused an extinction and the extinction event took some time. Long enough to where the mammals couldn't have hibernated through it. That would mean there should be many fossils in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet they are not there. Why?Joe
November 2, 2014
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logically_speaking at 25 said: So have you not heard of the scientific endeavors of biomimetics, that attempt to copy the designs in nature for our own benefit? We have no evidence of any Intelligent Designer creating those things. Is this an ad hominem attack?? Why would you stoop so low?? One of the main arguments in Behe's book Edge of Evolution is that the Designer was required to give drug-resistance to malaria, that it was too difficult for evolution to do. Look it up. How do you know it was a real animal? So how do we know it was a real animal? Extrapolation is full of assumptions and guess work. Because we know mammals existed before Chicxulub and we know mammals existed after. That means they existed right through the event and its immediate aftermath. The Chicxulub impact may be real, but saying what animals became extinct or what animals survived at this impact is speculation, and claiming that it caused worldwide extinctions is even more so We know what species existed before and after the impact event because of the fossil record. There is lots of evidence tying the impact event to the major mass extinction that immediately followed. The precise mechanisms of the extinction aren't fully characterized but we know for 100% fact an extinction occurred.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Joe at 27 said "If that were true then we would expect to see many organisms in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet we don’t. Why?" Are you seriously arguing that the Chicxulub impact event never occurred? Why don't you spend some time and Google up some of the thousands of pages detailing the evidence for it.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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wallstreeter43 at 24 said Dude are u still trying to use that old argument that birds are descendants of dinosaurs . Wow, don’t tell me ur still using archaeopteryx . I used the same arguments when I was an evolutionist . I’m glad I now have a brain if my own to actually make up my own mind That extant birds are closely related to theropod dinosaurs is considered a scientifically established fact. The main point of contention remaining is when in the theropod lineage the branching of the aves occurred. There's plenty of scientific literature on the topic.Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu:
Science has been tracking the continued evolution of the Ebola virus since at least 1976.
And how has the blind watchmaker paradigm helped?Joe
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu:
I do know the Chicxulub impactor of 65 million years ago was a real event that caused the extinction of a large percentage of life on Earth.
If that were true then we would expect to see many organisms in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet we don't. Why? What advances have ever been made using the blind watchmaker paradigm?Joe
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu, "What do we know about the Intelligent Designer’s design processes, design constraints, information, and engineering? I haven’t seen any mention of that in the scientific literature". So have you not heard of the scientific endeavors of biomimetics, that attempt to copy the designs in nature for our own benefit? "Ah, Michael Behe. He’s the guy that claims the Intelligent Designer has been visiting Earth in the last few decades and giving malaria parasites a resistance to our drugs. Since the Designer obviously wants more humans to die why do you suppose it would be any different with Ebola"? Is this an ad hominem attack?? Why would you stoop so low?? "The common ancestor of extant mammals, a species that survived the Chicxulub impact, was a real animal". How do you know it was a real animal? "The computer generated Shrëwdinger was a serious scientific exercise to reconstruct what it looked like by extrapolating back from data on extant mammals". So how do we know it was a real animal? Extrapolation is full of assumptions and guess work. "If you don’t think the Chicxulub impact was real how do you explain the 180km diameter crater in Chicxulub and the global covering KT boundary iridium layer? Those are real things I assure you". The Chicxulub impact may be real, but saying what animals became extinct or what animals survived at this impact is speculation, and claiming that it caused worldwide extinctions is even more so.logically_speaking
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu 22 "Ah, Michael Behe. He’s the guy that claims the Intelligent Designer has been visiting Earth in the last few decades and giving malaria parasites a resistance to our drugs." I don't recall Behe saying that. Do you have a source, or are you just making stuff up?anthropic
November 2, 2014
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6 EnkiduNovember 1, 2014 at 10:34 am The close relatives of dinosaurs did survive the Chicxulub mass extinction. They’re called birds."" Dude are u still trying to use that old argument that birds are descendants of dinosaurs . Wow, don't tell me ur still using archaeopteryx . I used the same arguments when I was an evolutionist . I'm glad I now have a brain if my own to actually make up my own mind . Which is why I left evolution after being an evolutionist for 41 Years. Posts like this show me why it was so easy to leave evolutionwallstreeter43
November 2, 2014
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logically_speaking said I just think it’s more productive to talk about real things rather than imaginary animals and their imaginary stories of surviving imaginary disasters The common ancestor of extant mammals, a species that survived the Chicxulub impact, was a real animal. The computer generated Shrëwdinger was a serious scientific exercise to reconstruct what it looked like by extrapolating back from data on extant mammals. (Aside: Shrëwdinger is a great name BTW. Pays homage to physicist Erwin Schrödinger of "Schrödinger's Cat" fame.) If you don't think the Chicxulub impact was real how do you explain the 180km diameter crater in Chicxulub and the global covering KT boundary iridium layer? Those are real things I assure you.Enkidu
November 1, 2014
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