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How we know evolution is true?

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BBC writer undermines own argument here:

First, when talking about evolution, author Chris Baraniuk chooses to defend precisely the theory of evolution that is most under fire just now, in serious intellectual terms: Darwinism

Darwin’s theory of evolution says that each new organism is subtly different from its parents, and these differences can sometimes help the offspring or impede it. As organisms compete for food and mates, those with the advantageous traits produce more offspring, while those with unhelpful traits may not produce any. So within a given population, advantageous traits become common and unhelpful ones disappear.

The problem is, in a constantly changing environment, “helpful” and “unhelpful” might not mean anything for long. So the theory amounts to “the survivors survive.”

That is a self-evident statement, not a mechanism.

Given enough time, these changes mount up and lead to the appearance of new species and new types of organism, one small change at a time. Step by step, worms became fish, fish came onto land and developed four legs, those four-legged animals grew hair and – eventually – some of them started walking around on two legs, called themselves “humans” and discovered evolution.

This can be hard to believe

It sure can. The rest of the article is about comparatively trivial changes that we are asked to believe demonstrate big changes (although human breeding can certainly make some dogs look weird. If nature teaches anything, it is that such oddities would not last long in the wilderness).

That has always been the problem with Darwinism. Darwinism seems like a fraudulent attempt to leave out the importance of the massive information inputs required for big changes. See Being as Communion.

By the way, why do Brits pay taxes for the BBC? Do they still need such government behemoths for anything, in the age of the Internet?

If Brits have money to burn, why aren’t they paying taxes for the support of cavalry horses as well?

Note: We face the same problem with the government broadcaster, the CBC, in Canada. There are signs around my own neighbourhood urging everyone to “support” the CBC, in this election year.

In the days when media behemoths were often useful, nobody put up a sign saying, “Support the weather forecast!” The Save the CBC campaign itself shows how much has changed.

Unnecessary institutions are often homes for out-of-date, never challenged, politically correct ideas that any mediocrity can make money off. They tend to retard, rather than advance, discussion by fronting out-of-date “truths” to the public.

I am sure glad evolution isn’t key current news. Some issues are, and are probably treated the same way.

Look, I (O’Leary for News) am not disputing evolution happens. Dam, I owe one of my editors another column on the subject. It’ll be on horizontal gene transfer, which is, I am glad to say, demonstrable.

See also: Evolution: The fossils speak, but hardly with one voice

and Evolution appears to converge on goals—but in Darwinian terms, is that possible?
Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
bornagain77: A manner in which the molecular machinery of the cell was, in direct contradiction to the central dogma of neo-Darwinism, rearranging segments of DNA searching for a solution” Gene duplication has been a known source of genetic variation since the 1930s, and is a standard evolutionary mechanism.Zachriel
August 10, 2015
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Zachriel, as pointed out before, the modification was achieved in an un-Darwinian manner i.e. "was in actuality brought about in a most un-Darwinian manner. A manner in which the molecular machinery of the cell was, in direct contradiction to the central dogma of neo-Darwinism, rearranging segments of DNA searching for a solution" That you have to illegitimately borrow from Shapiro's 'natural genetic engineering' to try to find support Darwinian evolution, is pitiful and intellectually dishonest. Anyway, since it is clear you have no intention of ever being honest towards the evidence, and I have made my point anyway, I'm done talking to you. The last lie is all yours.bornagain77
August 10, 2015
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bornagain77: If, before Lenski’s work was done, someone had sketched for me a cartoon of the original duplication that produced the metabolic change, I would have assumed that would be sufficient — that a single step could achieve it. Behe 2010: Evolution can't do complicated things, so evolution doesn't work. Behe 2012: Evolution does complicated things, so evolution doesn't work.Zachriel
August 10, 2015
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Zachriel you are not a we, you are a singular person. (You REALLY don't need people thinking you are any crazier than you already present yourself to be by additionally referring to yourself in a schizophrenic manner as a 'we') Moreover, funny that when the molecular details finally came out about the citrate modification that Behe himself said he was surprised that he had overestimated the power of the Darwinian mechanism.
Rose-Colored Glasses: Lenski, Citrate, and BioLogos - Michael Behe - November 13, 2012 Excerpt: In my own view, in retrospect, the most surprising aspect of the oxygen-tolerant citT mutation was that it proved so difficult to achieve. If, before Lenski's work was done, someone had sketched for me a cartoon of the original duplication that produced the metabolic change, I would have assumed that would be sufficient -- that a single step could achieve it. The fact that it was considerably more difficult than that goes to show that even skeptics like myself overestimate the power of the Darwinian mechanism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/rose-colored_gl066361.html
Moreover, the elephant in the living room main point of Behe's 'First Rule' paper that you are missing, (either by sheer willful ignorance or by purposeful deceit), is not that Behe is claiming that there are no gain of function mutations whatsoever. His main point that you are either purposely ignoring, or lying about, is that any gain of function mutations are inconsequential in the grand scheme of things since they will be swamped by the overwhelming rate of loss of function mutations which overtake them:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Getting There First: An Evolutionary Rate Advantage for Adaptive Loss-of-Function Mutations Michael J. Behe - 2013 http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0020 Biological Information - Loss-of-Function Mutations (Michael Behe) by Paul Giem 2015 - video (Behe - Loss of function mutations are far more likely to fix in a population than gain of function mutations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzD3hhvepK8&index=20&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ
Also of note, there is no empirical evidence whatsoever to support a 'bottom up' fossil record:
Challenging Fossil of a Little Fish Excerpt: “I think this is a major mystery in paleontology,” said Chen. “Before the Cambrian, we should see a number of steps: differentiation of cells, differentiation of tissue, of dorsal and ventral, right and left. But we don’t have strong evidence for any of these.” Taiwanese biologist Li was also direct: “No evolution theory can explain these kinds of phenomena.” http://www.fredheeren.com/boston.htm "We go from single cell protozoa. which would be ameoba and things like that. Then you get into some that are a little bit bigger, still single cell, and then you get aggregates, they're still individual cells that aggregate together. They don't seem to have much in the way of cooperation,,, but when you really talk about a functioning organism, that has more than just one type of cell, you are talking about a sponge and you can have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of cells. So we don't really have organisms that function with say two different types of cells, but there is only five total. We don't have anything like that." - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - quote taken from 31:00 minute mark of this following video Natural Limits to Biological Change 2/2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo3OKSGeFRQ
Nor does the experimental evidence suggest that such a transition from single cell aggregates to multicellular organisms is possible. To highlight the monumental problem that Darwinian processes face in going from a single cell to a multicellular creature, it is important to note the difficulty in obtaining just two protein-protein binding sites,,
"The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution")
And yet, Dr. Behe, on the important Table 7.1 on page 143 of Edge Of Evolution, finds that a typical ‘simple’ cell might have some 10,000 protein-binding sites. Whereas a conservative estimate for protein-protein binding sites in a multicellular creature is,,,
Largest-Ever Map of Plant Protein Interactions - July 2011 Excerpt: The new map of 6,205 protein partnerings represents only about two percent of the full protein- protein "interactome" for Arabidopsis, since the screening test covered only a third of all Arabidopsis proteins, and wasn't sensitive enough to detect many weaker protein interactions. "There will be larger maps after this one," says Ecker. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110728144936.htm
So taking into account that they only covered 2%, of the full protein-protein "interactome", then that gives us a number, for different protein-protein interactions, of 310,000. Thus, from my very rough 'back of the envelope' calculations, we find that this is at least 30 times higher than Dr. Behe's estimate of 10,000 different protein-protein binding sites for a typical single cell (Page 143; Edge of Evolution; Behe). That is a severe shortfall for the Darwinian mechanism to put it mildly.bornagain77
August 10, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: Nonetheless, all of the mutations identified [in the Lenski study] to date can readily be classified as either modification-of-function or loss-of-FCT. So said Behe in 2010. He also speculated that the adaptation was "caused by the loss of the activity of a normal genetic regulatory element", rather than a novel regulatory relationship. Silver Asiatic: Per Behe it is not a gain. Behe wrote his requirements in 2010. The genomic analysis was completed in 2012. That analysis showed that the adaptation met the requirements of a "noteworthy gain-of-FCT mutation" Behe set in 2010.Zachriel
August 10, 2015
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Zach
hence it is a “noteworthy gain-of-FCT mutation” per Behe
Per Behe it is not a gain.
Nonetheless, all of the mutations identified [in the Lenski study] to date can readily be classified as either modification-of-function or loss-of-FCT.
Edit: Oh wait, you disagree with Behe but extract some of his words as authoritative support for your own opinion as if he agrees with you.Silver Asiatic
August 10, 2015
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bornagain77: It is not even considered a ‘gain of function’ mutation as you so desperately want to believe! Behe, Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’, Quarterly Review of Biology 2010: “If the phenotype is due to one or more mutations that result in, for example, the addition of a novel genetic regulatory element, gene-duplication with sequence divergence, or the gain of a new binding site, then it will be a noteworthy gain-of-FCT mutation.” This was multiple potentiating mutations, plus a gene duplication with sequence divergence, plus a novel genetic regulatory element; hence it is a “noteworthy gain-of-FCT mutation” per Behe. Mung: This Darwin? Yes. Did you have a point?Zachriel
August 10, 2015
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bornagain77: I have not, nor have any other IDists on this thread, ignored Lenski’s e-coli. No, we said you ignored the point. bornagain77: If ‘top down’ disparity preceding diversity in the fossil record does not falsify ‘bottom up’ Darwinian evolution for you Zachriel: Actually, both topologies are found, and both are trees. Again, Darwin was aware of adaptive radiation, which is what happens when a new niche develops. The classic case is island diversification.Zachriel
August 10, 2015
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Zachriel: In biology, Darwinian evolution generally refers to evolution by natural selection. This Darwin?
When the first edition of this work was published, I was so completely deceived, as were many others, by such expressions as 'the continuous operation of creative power,' that I included Professor Owen with other palaeontologists as being firmly convinced of the immutability of species; but it appears ('Anat. of Vertebrates,' vol. iii. p. 796) that this was on my part a preposterous error. In the last edition of this work I inferred, and the inference still seems to me perfectly just, from a passage beginning with the words 'no doubt the type-form,' &c. (Ibid. vol. i. p. xxxv.), that Professor Owen admitted that natural selection may have done something in the formation of a new species; but this it appears (Ibid. vol. nl. p. 798) is inaccurate and without evidence. I also gave some extracts from a correspondence between Professor Owen and the Editor of the 'London Review,' from which it appeared manifest to the Editor as well as to myself, that Professor Owen claimed to have promulgated the theory of natural selection before I had done so; and I expressed my surprise and satisfaction at this announcement; but as far as it is possible to understand certain recently published passages (Ibid. vol. iii. p. 798) I have either partially or wholly again fallen into error. It is consolatory to me that others find Professor Owen's controversial writings as difficult to understand and to reconcile with each other, as I do. As far as the mere enunciation of the principle of natural selection is concerned, it is quite immaterial whether or not Professor Owen preceded me, for both of us, as shown in this historical sketch, were long ago preceded by Dr Wells and Mr Matthews.
Mung
August 9, 2015
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Just declare Darwinism a religion and be done with it already. Darwinity maybe. No amount of evidence to the contrary will make any difference. I wish I had that kind of faith.scottH
August 9, 2015
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Singular Zach, I have not, nor have any other IDists on this thread, ignored Lenski's e-coli. The citrate modification is listed merely as a 'modification of function' mutation in the Behe paper I cited previously, (a paper that you apparently ignored). i.e. It is not even considered a 'gain of function' mutation as you so desperately want to believe! Moreover, the citrate modification that you are so proud of that you think it finally proves once and for all that unguided material processes can build brains that are far more complex than the entire internet combined, (talk about extreme gullibility!), was in actuality brought about in a most un-Darwinian manner. A manner in which the molecular machinery of the cell was, in direct contradiction to the central dogma, rearranging segments of DNA searching for a solution
Bacterial 'Evolution' Is Actually Design in Action by Brian Thomas, M.S. - Dec. 2012 Excerpt: At that time, the mechanism underlying the citrate-eating phenotype was unknown. Behe wrote, "If the [Cit+] phenotype is due to one or more mutations that result in, for example, the addition of a novel genetic regulatory element, gene-duplication with sequence divergence, or the gain of a new binding site, then it will be a noteworthy gain-of-FCT [Functional Coded elemenT] mutation."2 So, the big question is: Did E. coli evolve into a Cit+ strain by natural selection? Or did mutations construct new and functional coded elements to its DNA? If so, it would be the first in recorded biological history. If not, then it would be just another loss or modification of a pre-existing piece. In Lenski's experiment, the bacteria (both Cit+ and wild-type) already possessed a gene named citT. It encodes a protein that transports a range of citrate-like chemicals. The recent results showed that the bacteria made extra copies of citT and a neighboring sequence—a process called gene amplification. More copies of the gene should translate to higher amounts of the transporter protein that it encodes. With enough transporters, the bacteria could access enough citrate. But oxygen deactivates citT, and having many copies of a gene that is turned off is not very useful! But the bacteria solved this problem when the amplification event also moved the gene sequence to a different place in the bacterial chromosome, where a different but pre-existing promoter could regulate it. Unlike the original one, it appears that the new promoter does not have an "oxygen off" switching mode. Instead, it allowed expression of citT in the presence of oxygen so that the bacteria successfully imported enough citrate to grow. The study authors wrote, "The structure of the cit amplification led us to propose that the Cit+ trait arose from an amplification-mediated promoter capture."1 Further investigation confirmed the proposal. So, the bacteria solved the problem of accessing an alternative food source by generating extra copies of the critical gene and by placing those copies under the control of an appropriate promoter. Does any of this resemble natural, undirected Darwinian evolution? Not at all. This amazing mechanism invented no new functional coded elements. It merely modified pre-existing elements. Therefore, not only did the Cit+ bacteria not evolve in the molecules-to-man direction, but they showed what could only be ingenious DNA rearrangement mechanisms. What mainstream headlines portrayed as evidence for evolution is actually the opposite.3 http://www.icr.org/article/bacterial-evolution-actually-design/
Of related note:
"It is difficult (if not impossible) to find a genome change operator that is truly random in its action within the DNA of the cell where it works' James Shapiro - Evolution: A View From The 21st Century - (Page 82) Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century - James A. Shapiro - 2009 Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112). http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf Also of interest from the preceding paper, on page 22, is a simplified list of the ‘epigenetic’ information flow in the cell that directly contradicts what was expected from the central dogma (Genetic Reductionism/modern synthesis model) of neo-Darwinism. How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. - 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611
bornagain77
August 9, 2015
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Zachriel:
In biology, Darwinian evolution generally refers to evolution by natural selection.
Science says that natural selection is impotent.
In order to understand the broad scope of evolutionary history, it’s usually best to start with the evidence for common descent, which provides the historical context for understanding the mechanisms involved.
OK, then what is the evidence that prokaryotes can evolve into something other than prokaryotes?Virgil Cain
August 9, 2015
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Mung: As long as you’re willing to equivocate over the meaning of the word evolution, you can directly observe evolution in action by watching the sun rise. We were responding to an equivocation. In biology, Darwinian evolution generally refers to evolution by natural selection. In order to understand the broad scope of evolutionary history, it's usually best to start with the evidence for common descent, which provides the historical context for understanding the mechanisms involved.Zachriel
August 9, 2015
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Zachriel: We can directly observe evolution by natural selection As long as you're willing to equivocate over the meaning of the word evolution, you can directly observe evolution in action by watching the sun rise.Mung
August 9, 2015
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Zachriel:
We can directly observe evolution by natural selection, a.k.a. darwinian evolution, such as in Lenski’s experiments.
Except we don't know if darwinian evolution was responsible. AND Lenski proved universal common descent is a non-starter.
“The {aerobic environment} they live in includes a chemical called citrate, which E. coli cannot digest.”
They could digest it, they just couldn't get it in. Zachriel always ignores the points raised.Virgil Cain
August 9, 2015
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Zachriel: Please read our comments before responding. Actually, both topologies are found, and both are trees. Again, Darwin was aware of adaptive radiation, which is what happens when a new niche develops. The classic case is island diversification. bornagain77: The only empirical evidence that you have for Darwinian evolution exists in your imagination. We can directly observe evolution by natural selection, a.k.a. darwinian evolution, such as in Lenski's experiments. Notably, you ignored the points that were raised. Dr JDD: If anyone truly believes that omission of a fact that E coli can already metabolise citrate under different environmental conditions does not affect the interpretation and impact of such a result they are either deluded, naive or down right deceitful. The article was written for a lay audience by a freelance technology writer. Here's a rewrite for clarity. "The {aerobic environment} they live in includes a chemical called citrate, which E. coli cannot digest."Zachriel
August 9, 2015
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If Lenski's experiment is an example of evolution in action then universal common descent is dead. Not one example of evolution in action can be extrapolated into universal common descent.Virgil Cain
August 8, 2015
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If anyone truly believes that omission of a fact that E coli can already metabolise citrate under different environmental conditions does not affect the interpretation and impact of such a result they are either deluded, naive or down right deceitful. Probably 2 of those at least.Dr JDD
August 8, 2015
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Zachriel, "You might do better by trying to sustain an argument rather than deflect from it." you, the singular person of Zach, have no actual argument, nor actual evidence, to reply to. The only empirical evidence that you have for Darwinian evolution exists in your imagination. It is not up to me to falsify an imaginary theory built on imaginary evidence that exists in your imagination. It is up to you to prove to me that your pseudo-scientific theory even qualifies as science in the first place, by supplying the necessary real time empirical evidence required to substantiate your grandiose claims that unguided material processes can build the unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life: Good luck with that. Michael Behe – Observed (1 in 10^20) Limits of Evolution – video – Lecture delivered in April 2015 at Colorado School of Mines 25:56 minute quote – “This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svV8wNUqvAbornagain77
August 8, 2015
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Dr JDD @ 30
I was making a point which stands: the BBC article presented a false view.
No, it does not. You can criticize it for over-simplification if you want but that can be countered by the observation that it is clearly intended for a lay audience.
It even states that bacteria cannot metabolise citrate. That is categorically false.
No, your claim is false. Chris Baraniuk wrote as follows:
The mixture they live in includes a chemical called citrate, which E. coli cannot digest. [My emphasis]
He did not claim that all bacteria are unable to digest citrate, he only mentioned E Coli. It’s true he didn’t qualify it it by noting that E Coli can metabolize citrate under anaerobic conditions but that doesn’t affect the results of Lenski’s experiment at all. None of his 12 cloned populations of E Coli was able to metabolize citrate under aerobic conditions at all until 31,500 generations in, when the ability emerged in one population. Unless you’re going to claim that Lenski or one of his staff went in and “tweaked” the E Coli genome to switch on a pre-existing function, this is a pretty good demonstration of evolution in action.Seversky
August 8, 2015
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bornagain77: {standard reply, handwaving following by linkfest} First link doesn't address adaptive radiation. The second link is not an example of adaptive radiation. The third link mangles the definition of species. The fourth link doesn't address adaptive radiation. You might do better by trying to sustain an argument rather than deflect from it.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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Zachriel your island diversification just so story has been weighed in the balance and found wanting:
Fantasy Island: Evolutionary Weirdness Does Not Favor Islands - July 2010 Excerpt: “We concluded that the evolution of body sizes is as random with respect to ‘isolation’ as on the rest of the planet,” he said. “This means that you can expect to find the same sort of patterns on islands and on the mainland.” http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201007.htm#20100708b Amazing Insects Defy Evolution – October 2010 Excerpt: India spent tens of millions of years as an island before colliding with Asia. Yet the fossil record contains no evidence that unique species evolved on the subcontinent during this time, http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201010.htm#20101026a Allopatric Speciation Tested in Martinique Cornelius Hunter - February 2012 Excerpt: In spite of evolutionary expectations the different lizard populations, which had been separated for six to eight millions years, had no difficulty interbreeding as one species. The so-called allopatric speciation never happened. Undaunted as ever, evolutionist now call for “ecological speciation,” which didn’t occur either but it has the virtue that it can’t be falsified. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/02/allopatric-speciation-tested-in.html
the same 'weighed in the balance and found wanting' is found for Darwinian just so stories of adaptation:
No Positive Selection, No Darwin: A New Non-Darwinian Mechanism for the Origin of Adaptive Phenotypes - November 2011 Excerpt: Hughes now proposes a model he refers to as the plasticity-relaxation-mutation (PRM) model. PRM suggests that adaptive phenotypes arise as follows: (1) there exists a phenotypically plastic trait (i.e., one that changes with the environment, such as sweating in the summer heat); (2) the environment becomes constant, such that the trait assumes only one of its states for a lengthened period of time; and (3) during that time, deleterious mutations accumulate in the unused state of the trait, such that its genetic basis is subsequently lost. ,,, But if most adaptations result from the loss of genetic specifications, how did the traits initially arise? One letter (Chevin & Beckerman 2011) of response to Hughes noted that the PRM "does not explain why the ancestral state should be phenotypically plastic, or why this plasticity should be adaptive in the first place." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/no_positive_selection_no_darwi052941.html A. L. Hughes's New Non-Darwinian Mechanism of Adaption Was Discovered and Published in Detail by an ID Geneticist 25 Years Ago - Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig - December 2011 Excerpt: The original species had a greater genetic potential to adapt to all possible environments. In the course of time this broad capacity for adaptation has been steadily reduced in the respective habitats by the accumulation of slightly deleterious alleles (as well as total losses of genetic functions redundant for a habitat), with the exception, of course, of that part which was necessary for coping with a species' particular environment....By mutative reduction of the genetic potential, modifications became "heritable". -- As strange as it may at first sound, however, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For the characteristics were not acquired evolutionarily, but existed from the very beginning due to the greater adaptability. In many species only the genetic functions necessary for coping with the corresponding environment have been preserved from this adaptability potential. The "remainder" has been lost by mutations (accumulation of slightly disadvantageous alleles) -- in the formation of secondary species. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/12/a_l_hughess_new053881.html
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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bornagain77: If ‘top down’ disparity preceding diversity in the fossil record does not falsify ‘bottom up’ Darwinian evolution for you ... Please read our comments before responding. Actually, both topologies are found, and both are trees. Again, Darwin was aware of adaptive radiation, which is what happens when a new niche develops. The classic case is island diversification.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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Zachriel, If 'top down' disparity preceding diversity in the fossil record does not falsify 'bottom up' Darwinian evolution for you, then that is just another proof that the version of Darwinism you apparently believe in is in reality just a unfalsifiable pseudo-science! Similar to tea-leaf reading (although I hate to give tea leaf readers a bad name! :) As I've heard said before, the only evidence of unlimited plasticity ever witnessed for Darwinian evolution has been within the theory itself. The theory is forever plastic. Able to morph itself into whatever shape it needs to in order to avoid falsification by empirical observation!
"Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought." ~ Cornelius Hunter "When their expectations turn out to be false, evolutionists respond by adding more epicycles to their theory that the species arose spontaneously from chance events. But that doesn’t mean the science has confirmed evolution as Velasco suggests. True, evolutionists have remained steadfast in their certainty, but that says more about evolutionists than about the empirical science." ~ Cornelius Hunter Here’s That Algae Study That Decouples Phylogeny and Competition - June 17, 2014 Excerpt: "With each new absurdity another new complicated just-so story is woven into evolutionary theory. As Lakatos explained, some theories simply are not falsifiable. But as a result they sacrifice realism and parsimony." - Cornelius Hunter http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/06/heres-that-algae-study-that-decouples.html Darwin's (Failed) Predictions: An Interview with Cornelius Hunter, Part I and II http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/06/darwins_failed_predictions_an021311.html http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/06/darwins_failed_predictions_an_1021321.html
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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bornagain77: not only does the fossil record not support Darwinian gradualism, but the fossil record actually supports the ‘top down’ appearance of kinds in the fossil record rather than the ‘bottom up’ gradual appearance as was originally envisioned by Darwin Actually, both topologies are found, and both are trees. Again, Darwin was aware of adaptive radiation, which is what happens when a new niche develops. The classic case is island diversification.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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Timeline graphic on Cambrian Explosion - 'Darwin's Doubt' (Disparity preceding Diversity) - infographic http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/its_darwins_dou074341.html The Cambrian Explosion - Stephen Meyer and Marcus Ross - video Various phylum are discussed in the first part of the video (Top down, disparity preceding diversity, pattern discussed at 33:00 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLpSb-iDNyw “Darwin had a lot of trouble with the fossil record because if you look at the record of phyla in the rocks as fossils why when they first appear we already see them all. The phyla are fully formed. It’s as if the phyla were created first and they were modified into classes and we see that the number of classes peak later than the number of phyla and the number of orders peak later than that. So it’s kind of a top down succession, you start with this basic body plans, the phyla, and you diversify them into classes, the major sub-divisions of the phyla, and these into orders and so on. So the fossil record is kind of backwards from what you would expect from in that sense from what you would expect from Darwin’s ideas." James W. Valentine - as quoted from "On the Origin of Phyla: Interviews with James W. Valentine" - (as stated at 1:16:36 mark of video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtdFJXfvlm8&feature=player_detailpage#t=4595 Erwin and Valentine's The Cambrian Explosion Affirms Major Points in Darwin's Doubt: The Cambrian Enigma Is "Unresolved" - June 26, 2013 Excerpt: "In other words, the morphological distances -- gaps -- between body plans of crown phyla were present when body fossils first appeared during the explosion and have been with us ever since. The morphological disparity is so great between most phyla that the homologous reference points or landmarks required for quantitative studies of morphology are absent." Erwin and Valentine (p. 340) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/06/erwin_valentine_cambrian_explosion073671.html
Moreover, there are 'yawning chasms' in the 'morphological space' between the phyla which suddenly appeared in the Cambrian Explosion,,,
"Over the past 150 years or so, paleontologists have found many representatives of the phyla that were well-known in Darwin’s time (by analogy, the equivalent of the three primary colors) and a few completely new forms altogether (by analogy, some other distinct colors such as green and orange, perhaps). And, of course, within these phyla, there is a great deal of variety. Nevertheless, the analogy holds at least insofar as the differences in form between any member of one phylum and any member of another phylum are vast, and paleontologists have utterly failed to find forms that would fill these yawning chasms in what biotechnologists call “morphological space.” In other words, they have failed to find the paleolontogical equivalent of the numerous finely graded intermediate colors (Oedleton blue, dusty rose, gun barrel gray, magenta, etc.) that interior designers covet. Instead, extensive sampling of the fossil record has confirmed a strikingly discontinuous pattern in which representatives of the major phyla stand in stark isolation from members of other phyla, without intermediate forms filling the intervening morphological space." Stephen Meyer - Darwin’s Doubt (p. 70)
Moreover, this top down pattern in the fossil record, which is the complete opposite pattern as Darwin predicted for the fossil record, is not only found in the Cambrian Explosion, but this 'top down', disparity preceding diversity, pattern is found in the fossil record subsequent to the Cambrian explosion as well.
Scientific study turns understanding about evolution on its head – July 30, 2013 Excerpt: evolutionary biologists,,, looked at nearly one hundred fossil groups to test the notion that it takes groups of animals many millions of years to reach their maximum diversity of form. Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form (disparity) relatively early in their histories. ,,,Dr Matthew Wills said: “This pattern, known as ‘early high disparity’, turns the traditional V-shaped cone model of evolution on its head. What is equally surprising in our findings is that groups of animals are likely to show early-high disparity regardless of when they originated over the last half a billion years. This isn’t a phenomenon particularly associated with the first radiation of animals (in the Cambrian Explosion), or periods in the immediate wake of mass extinctions.”,,, Author Martin Hughes, continued: “Our work implies that there must be constraints on the range of forms within animal groups, and that these limits are often hit relatively early on. Co-author Dr Sylvain Gerber, added: “A key question now is what prevents groups from generating fundamentally new forms later on in their evolution.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-07-scientific-evolution.html “In virtually all cases a new taxon appears for the first time in the fossil record with most definitive features already present, and practically no known stem-group forms.” TS Kemp - Fossils and Evolution,– Curator of Zoological Collections, Oxford University, Oxford Uni Press, p246, 1999 “What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types.” Robert L Carroll (born 1938) – vertebrate paleontologist who specialises in Paleozoic and Mesozoic amphibians
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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Consequently, if the theory be true, it is indisputable that, before the lowest Silurian or Cambrian stratum was deposited long periods elapsed, as long as, or probably far longer than, the whole interval from the Cambrian age to the present day; and that during these vast periods the world swarmed with living creatures… To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods, I can give no satisfactory answer… The case at present must remain inexplicable; and may be truly urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained. —Chapter IX, “On the Imperfection of the Geological Record,” On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin - fifth edition (1869), pp. 378-381.
Zach, not only does the fossil record not support Darwinian gradualism, but the fossil record actually supports the 'top down' appearance of kinds in the fossil record rather than the 'bottom up' gradual appearance as was originally envisioned by Darwin (and drawn in his book):
What Types of Evolution Does the Cambrian Explosion Challenge? - Stephen Meyer - video - (challenges Universal Common Descent and the Mechanism of Random Variation/Natural Selection) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaF7t5wRFtA&list=UUUMhP2x7_7psVO-H4MJFpAQ Cambrian Explosion Ruins Darwin's Tree of Life (2 minutes in 24 hour day) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKxkUb_AAg
, as Dr. Wells points out in the preceding video, Darwin predicted that minor differences (diversity) between species would gradually appear first and then the differences would grow larger (disparity) between species as time went on. i.e. universal common descent as depicted in Darwin's tree of life. What Darwin predicted should be familiar to everyone and is easily represented in the following graph.,,,
The Theory - Diversity precedes Disparity - graph http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/JOURNEY/IMAGES/F.gif
But that gradual 'tree pattern' that Darwin predicted in his book is not what is found in the fossil record. The fossil record reveals that disparity (the greatest differences) precedes diversity (the smaller differences), which is the exact opposite pattern for what Darwin's theory predicted.
The Actual Fossil Evidence- Disparity precedes Diversity - graph http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/JOURNEY/IMAGES/G.gif Jerry Coyne's Chapter on the Fossil Record Fails to Show "Why Evolution is True" - Jonathan M. - December 4, 2012 Excerpt: Taxonomists classify organisms into categories: species are the very lowest taxonomic category. Species are classified into different genera. Genera are classified into different families. Families are classified into different orders. Orders are classified into different classes. And classes are classified into different phyla. Phyla are among the very highest taxonomic categories (only kingdom and domain are higher), and correspond to the high level of morphological disparity that exists between different animal body plans. Phyla include such groupings as chordates, arthropods, mollusks, and echinoderms. Darwin's theory would predict a cone of diversity whereby the major body-plan differences (morphological disparity) would only appear in the fossil record following numerous lower-level speciation events. What is interesting about the fossil record is that it shows the appearance of the higher taxonomic categories first (virtually all of the major skeletonized phyla appear in the Cambrian, with no obvious fossil transitional precursors, within a relatively small span of geological time). As Roger Lewin (1988) explains in Science, "Several possible patterns exist for the establishment of higher taxa, the two most obvious of which are the bottom-up and the top-down approaches. In the first, evolutionary novelties emerge, bit by bit. The Cambrian explosion appears to conform to the second pattern, the top-down effect." Erwin et al. (1987), in their study of marine invertebrates, similarly conclude that, "The fossil record suggests that the major pulse of diversification of phyla occurs before that of classes, classes before that of orders, orders before that of families. The higher taxa do not seem to have diverged through an accumulation of lower taxa." Indeed, the existence of numerous small and soft-bodied animals in the Precambrian strata undermines one of the most popular responses that these missing transitions can be accounted for by them being too small and too-soft bodied to be preserved. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/jerry_coynes_c067021.html Investigating Evolution: The Cambrian Explosion Part 1 – (4:45 minute mark - upside-down fossil record) video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DkbmuRhXRY Part 2 – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFM48XIXnk Challenging Fossil of a Little Fish Excerpt: "In Chen’s view, his evidence supports a history of life that runs opposite to the standard evolutionary tree diagrams, a progression he calls top-down evolution." Jun-Yuan Chen is professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology http://www.fredheeren.com/boston.htm
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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Zachriel: The vast majority of experts in the field think fossils supports evolution. bornagain77: Actually no, the experts in the field no longer think that the fossil record supports Darwinian gradualism. Notably, you conflated evolution with "Darwinian gradualism", which you seem to think is contradicted by periods of stasis. Darwin recognized that the history of evolution would include long periods of stasis, saying "the periods during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured in years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form." In any case, the statement stands. The vast majority of experts in paleontology think the fossil record supports evolution. You may disagree with their assessment, but that doesn't mean the consensus doesn't exist, or that someone is "insane" for agreeing with that consensus.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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There isn't any evidence that a mammalian inner ear evolved from a reptilian inner ear. There isn't any evidence that a reptile can evolve into a mammal. Fossils cannot support evolution as they cannot say how they arrived.Virgil Cain
August 8, 2015
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"The vast majority of experts in the field think fossils supports evolution." Actually no, the experts in the field no longer think that the fossil record supports Darwinian gradualism. So that would make you a liar
Donald Prothero: In evolution, stasis was general, gradualism rare, and that’s the consensus 40 years on - February 2012 Excerpt: For the first decade after the paper was published, it was the most controversial and hotly argued idea in all of paleontology. Soon the great debate among paleontologists boiled down to just a few central points, which Gould and Eldredge (1977) nicely summarized on the fifth anniversary of the paper’s release. The first major discovery was that stasis was much more prevalent in the fossil record than had been previously supposed. Many paleontologists came forward and pointed out that the geological literature was one vast monument to stasis, with relatively few cases where anyone had observed gradual evolution. If species didn’t appear suddenly in the fossil record and remain relatively unchanged, then biostratigraphy would never work—and yet almost two centuries of successful biostratigraphic correlations was evidence of just this kind of pattern. As Gould put it, it was the “dirty little secret” hidden in the paleontological closet. Most paleontologists were trained to focus on gradual evolution as the only pattern of interest, and ignored stasis as “not evolutionary change” and therefore uninteresting, to be overlooked or minimized. Once Eldredge and Gould had pointed out that stasis was equally important (“stasis is data” in Gould’s words), paleontologists all over the world saw that stasis was the general pattern, and that gradualism was rare—and that is still the consensus 40 years later. Donald Prothero - American paleontologist, geologist, and author who specializes in mammalian paleontology. https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/donald-prothero-in-evolution-stasis-was-the-general-pattern-gradualism-was-rare-and-that-is-still-the-consensus-40-years-later/ Problem 5: Abrupt Appearance of Species in the Fossil Record Does Not Support Darwinian Evolution - Casey Luskin January 29, 2015 Excerpt: Rather than showing gradual Darwinian evolution, the history of life shows a pattern of explosions where new fossil forms come into existence without clear evolutionary precursors. Evolutionary anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz summarizes the problem: "We are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus -- full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations. . ."98 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/problem_5_abrup091141.html “With the benefit of hindsight, it is amazing that paleontologists could have accepted gradual evolution as a universal pattern on the basis of a handful of supposedly well-documented lineages (e.g. Gryphaea, Micraster, Zaphrentis) none of which actually withstands close scrutiny." Christopher R.C. Paul, “Patterns of Evolution and Extinction in Invertebrates,” K.C. Allen and D.E.G. Briggs, eds., Evolution and the Fossil Record (Washington, D.C., Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989), 105. "It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I learned as a student from Trueman's Ostrea/Gryphaea to Carruthers' Zaphrentis delanouei, have now been 'debunked'. Similarly, my own experience of more than twenty years looking for evolutionary lineages among the Mesozoic Brachiopoda has proved them equally elusive.' Dr. Derek V. Ager (Department of Geology & Oceonography, University College, Swansea, UK), 'The nature of the fossil record'. Proceedings of the Geologists' Association, vol.87(2), 1976,p.132. "The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, whether at the level of orders or of species, we find' over and over again' not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." Paleontologist, Derek V. Ager, “The Nature of the Fossil Record,” 87 Proceedings of the British Geological Association 87 (1976): 133. (Department of Geology & Oceanography, University College, Swansea, UK) “It is a feature of the known fossil record that most taxa appear abruptly. They are not, as a rule, led up to by a sequence of almost imperceptibly changing forerunners such as Darwin believed should be usual in evolution…This phenomenon becomes more universal and more intense as the hierarchy of categories is ascended. Gaps among known species are sporadic and often small. Gaps among known orders, classes and phyla are systematic and almost always large.” G.G.Simpson - one of the most influential American Paleontologist of the 20th century "A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God." Paleontologist, Mark Czarnecki "There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways, it has become almost unmanageably rich and discovery is outpacing integration. The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps." T. Neville George - Professor of paleontology - Glasgow University, "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them." David Kitts - Paleontologist - D.B. Kitts, Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory (1974), p. 467. "The long-term stasis, following a geologically abrupt origin, of most fossil morphospecies, has always been recognized by professional paleontologists" – Stephen Jay Gould - Harvard etc.. etc..
As to antibiotic resistance being ancient, and you calling that 'silly', I suggest you update your notes! Here are a few more notes to go along with the cite I already listed:
Scientists unlock a 'microbial Pompeii' - February 23, 2014 Excerpt: "...The researchers discovered that the ancient human oral microbiome already contained the basic genetic machinery for antibiotic resistance more than eight centuries before the invention of the first therapeutic antibiotics in the 1940s..." http://phys.org/news/2014-02-scientists-microbial-pompeii.html A Tale of Two Falsifications of Evolution - September 2011 Excerpt: “Scientists were surprised at how fast bacteria developed resistance to the miracle antibiotic drugs when they were developed less than a century ago. Now scientists at McMaster University have found that resistance has been around for at least 30,000 years.” http://crev.info/content/110904-a_tale_of_two_falsifications_of_evolution
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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