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Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
"could NEVER be boring Eugen!" OK as long as there's no Vogon poetry. See,it's easy to get in trouble. But Father, you and everybody else know that I'm joking! Now seriously and no emotions. NDE reports talk how there is some sequence to their experience in other reality. Events don't happen all at once ,it seems.They also communicate with others one on one and in groups. I think logic should work as well ie. 2+2=4.Eugen
February 24, 2011
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For Bruce David, Thank you for the invitation to read "Coversations with God". I confess that I will probably not read it. A dollar or two for a used copy is ok, but not the $9 for the copy I looked through. I did look up the website and wikopedia. Those efforts combined with your comments in this thread indicate that it is basically a Christian Heresy. A heresy takes a truth out of context and then assigns too great an emphasis on it. Take your statement, "Knowledge is not aquired, it is given." That is a Christian statement. God gives us all knowledge: through scripture for example, through other people, through our senses, through our mental activities, and through direct infusion of knowledge. Your statement implies only the last is true and that is a very narrow interpretation of giving. I have found your comments interesting because you basically give a "Christian" message, but you are hung up on sin. The simple way is to just relax and not worry about it. Follow your own advice and let God give you the knowledge you need to understand it. You will know you have the answer when you are at peace with it. God Bless you and all others here. GesualdoGCS
February 24, 2011
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Eugen you state in regards to living in eternity; 'I’m afraid I’ll get bored,' Existing in a intimate fellowship with the Being who created this universe, with merely His spoken word no less, could NEVER be boring Eugen!bornagain77
February 24, 2011
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Hey Eugene, You say: "Eternity is weird. What are we going to do for eternity?" It would depend on where you end up I guess. Mwahahaaa!!! ;) - SonfaroSonfaro
February 24, 2011
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Bornagain "spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome" Eternity is weird. What are we going to do for eternity? I'm afraid I'll get bored,start bugging people and get in trouble.Eugen
February 24, 2011
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Hey BA77, Thanks for clearing that up for me. It's what I get for making assumptions. :)Sonfaro
February 24, 2011
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Science can’t make any ‘conclusions’, or at least no credible ones, unless it has the means to observe and/or test things.
The evidence for ID is entirely material, and is observable by anyone.
Your God or any other God isn’t observable, or testable.
This objection is irrelevant. ID doesn’t test for a God, or gods, or any particular God at all.
The suggestions you’re thinking of are determined and biased by your religious beliefs. If anything, you have a priori beliefs and want to fit the science to those beliefs.
The only thing of consequence to science is the evidence. Anyone’s personal beliefs are secondary to that evidence, and it is only that evidence that is at issue.
Yeah, I know, some scientists want to ‘adjust’ the science too but it’s usually not because of their religious beliefs and especially not if they’re evolutionary biologists or in a similar field.
This is like saying that someone who likes vanilla ice cream has a preference, but someone who doesn’t like vanilla ice cream has no preference. It’s a scam against logic and reason – it’s a back marker for ideologues who wish to see themselves as paragons of reason, those whose beliefs are not affected by their beliefs.
When scientists ‘adjust’ the science it’s usually because of a desire for money (grants, etc.), fame, reputation, promotion, job security, etc.
Agreed. And when everyone is forced to “adjust” the science in the same direction it is called pseudo-science, which is what materialism is.
Some scientists may adjust the science because of their atheism but that doesn’t make it okay for religious people to do the same thing.
Firstly, the evidence of design in nature doesn’t require an adjustment. It’s readily observed by those on both sides of the argument. The “adjustment” you speak of is simply to ignore that it exist. Secondarily, the scientists who make the adjustment (to ignore the evidence) do so in order to come to the same conclusion which happens to support your worldview. So to decode your comment – you don’t care if some scientists lie in order to support your worldview, but even if they do, that doesn’t make it okay for other scientists to not lie to you.
No possible things should be left out of science IF those things actually are possible and are verifiable (or not) through sound scientific methods.
Again, the evidence of design is completely material and is observable by anyone. You’re doing the ideologue’s dance. You demand that ID can’t test for a God, and then when told that ID doesn’t test for a God, you demand that ID can’t test for a God. You’ve placed your intellect in a cocoon, inside an echo chamber, with denial guarding the door. Such a position empowers you to claim that other people are close-minded and won’t listen to reason. The more you speak, the more rational you appear.Upright BiPed
February 24, 2011
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Sonfaro I noticed you stated; 'I don’t even thing BA77 would say that. And he’s hardcore for Christ' Sonfaro, I'm not even close to the people I consider 'hardcore for Christ'; People who travel half the way around the world with the gospel, hoping to when a few souls to Christ, knowing that their very lives (on this world) could be a stake, sometimes within their very own countries they suffer such peril. Those people are 'hard core; Francis Chan speaks of some 'hard core' Christians here; Experiencing Jesus Christ - Francis Chan - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4928919/ Shoot Sonfaro, I've a hard enough time keeping my focus on eternity instead of just on the here and now; Francis Chan On Living for Eternity - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5848080/ notes; "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/best-brainac/article37176-2.html "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 In The Presence Of Almighty God - The Near Death Experience of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544/ 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got... up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimonybornagain77
February 24, 2011
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correction; you may say YOU believe Richard Dawkins exists but can you prove it?bornagain77
February 24, 2011
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Pach. let's turn your logic around on itself and see if it holds water, ,,, you may say believe Richard Dawkins exists but can you prove it? Do you believe Richard Dawkins exists? Excerpt: Conclusion' The evidence for the existence of God is far more conclusive than the evidence that I have personally seen for the existence of Richard Dawkins. To be honest, I’m pretty sure Dawkins exists too. But I’m even surer of the existence of God. http://creation.com/does-dawkins-exist The Dawkins Delusion - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERyh9YYEis "Does Richard Dawkins exist? Many people would say yes. Terry Tommyrot thinks otherwise. In a revealing interview on "The Big Questions", Dr. Tommyrot explains how belief in Richard Dawkins is, in fact, a harmful delusion, and how it can be explained scientifically." (A parable within a parody)bornagain77
February 24, 2011
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Hi Pach, My reply to you may be a bit jumbled. It’s early in the morning for me. Hope you can forgive. Also, I’m hoping this will be the last time I repeat myself. ID will not point to my God specifically. Only to a creator. However, my God IS a creator. It is then a possibility that my God exists IN MY OPINION. Maybe it's not a strong possibility, but it's a possibility. "Why do you want science to verify and substantiate your religious beliefs, or even care if it does?" I was fine when Science said my faith was pure delusion. And I'm fine now. While I love it that Science seems to be substantiating what I already believed, I would have believed it regardless. (Indoctrinated, remember? -_- ) I 'care' because as a Christian I have something more to defend my faith with, and something I can share with people who want to know why I believe what I believe. "What I’m dismissing is a God(s) and religion “thought”. The thing is though, that it really doesn’t matter what I accept or dismiss when it comes to whether science will ever accept ID theory as being scientific (or credible). I’m just one person and science is much bigger than any one person." Throughout this thread, you’ve conflated ‘Science’ with materialism. Please don’t do that. I’ve said it before, there will be no convincing Materialists that ID is valid. They made up their minds - like you apparently. Others have said it better but science should be after the facts. Not just material facts. Fact period. And it appears that all of the facts – from physics to cell structure – point to a designer. “You make it sound like religion and ID go together. If they do, then ID isn’t scientific.” Why you left out the rest of my statement is beyond me. But I’ll try to rephrase it so you have no excuse. You’re on a science board where there are also religious people. You could go to a Naruto board and find the same. Or a wrestling board. Or a board for porn (why religious people would be there though is beyond me) Heck, there are religious posters who pop up on Dawkins board trying to defend their faith when a hardline atheist starts talking trash too! We outnumber non-believers Pach. We’re everywhere. Yes, even here. “If your desire (or agenda) is to get science to accept ID as a scientific theory, you’re doing your desire (or agenda) more harm than good, by injecting religion and Gods into ID and any discussion of it.” My discussion of God came from your dismissal and rudimentary atheist anti-religious spiel. Remember? It’s why I started posting. I’m asking you to stop bringing up God. You keep bringing him up. “Then promote and discuss ID strictly for the science behind it and stop challenging atheists or others who aren’t interested in any connection between religious beliefs or Gods and ID.” Pach, If’ I’ve ‘challenged’ you, it was in defense of my beliefs, which you’ve taken unnecessary shots at throughout. I’ve said time and again I’m not trying to convert you. If someone else was on this board you’ll have to take it up with them. I’m trying to get you to stop being such a closed-minded hardcore atheist who likes to bash religion, which you apparently refuse to do. Also, as to evidence for my faith: A Christian can give you the historical documents that confirm Jesus’ existence. We could point out that most objections to the bibles accuracy typically fall flat when you read in context. We could remind you that we’ve found Jericho, Sodom, Nazareth, ‘The House of David’ ect. We could show you all these things and they wouldn’t mean much to you. Like the Landing-deniers I mentioned earlier, you made up your mind about the answer, and nothing we could say would change it. You’d just rationalize it away with a wave of the hand. Fine. Whatever. It’s your life, live it your way (I’ve said this before already). But don’t go thinking your opinion is more valid than mine because you’ve dismissed whatever evidence that exists. A Christian can do the same for evidence against their/our faith. So can a LL-denier. It’s your opinion Pach. It's not fact. Stop taking your god-complex out on ID just because you catch the wiff of religious people hovering around. It’s boring. Seriously, I thought we were having a conversation, but it appears you’ve shut down completely. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 24, 2011
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P: A Challenge:
Work your way through Gil Dodgen's presentation, here. Then, tell us on the merits, why you reject it.
I think that can serve to supplement the questions above. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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Pach, you said:
Science can’t make any ‘conclusions’, or at least no credible ones, unless it has the means to observe and/or test things. Your God or any other God isn’t observable, or testable.
This does not correctly address the question. I did not ask if you thought God was observable or testable. I asked, "“Why do you think it is OK to rule out, beforehand, any possible conclusions from science, whether those conclusions SUGGEST the existence of God or anything else?” I did not say nor have in mind science concluding God. So would you please answer again.
No possible things should be left out of science IF those things actually are possible and are verifiable (or not) through sound scientific methods.
This shows again that you are not correctly and directly answering what's being asked. I think the answer is fairly good as far as it goes, but to parse the words in that reply leaves major holes. You said no "things" should be left out of science, but I was not asking about things, rather about conclusions that suggest things. We are leaving the question about whether those things that science may suggest are directly testable or not for later. You then say, "IF those things actually are possible . . ." But we don't know what is possible until we apply the science to begin with. So, this point is even further from addressing the question. And then, " . . . and are verifiable (or not) through sound scientific methods." This goes back to the first point about not correctly addressing the actual question being asked. The conclusions that science suggests need not themselves be verifiable. That is the next step. So, could you address the question again, please?
Why do you want science to verify and substantiate your religious beliefs, or even care if it does?
I don't. But hey, if science verifies my worldview I'm not gonna be ashamed of sticking that feather in my hat. I don't care if science substantiates my religious belief. But if my religious belief happens to be true then I expect science to do so. I don't want or need it to be forced to, however.Brent
February 24, 2011
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PS: Nor is this a matter of just one individual. There is a definite power establishment committed to evolutionary materialism, that needs to be exposed for question-begging closed mindedness, for plain old fashioned bigotry, for their thought police expulsion and slander tactics, and they need to be strongly corrected. If they refuse such correction on the merits [as is also happening with the global warming issue, which the OP joins to the evolutionary materialism agenda], they need to be shamed for such uncivil behaviour, and then we need to take back science and science education from such untrustworthy hands. Newton's remarks in Opticks, Query 31, would be an excellent place to begin.kairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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P: Further to the just above, I note:
What I’m dismissing is a God(s) and religion “thought”.
That is actually an admission to the problem. If, a priori you rule out the possibility that an Intelligent Creator capable of building a cosmos such as ours exists, then you are begging serious questions and censoring the possibility that science could provide evidence that points in that direction. As it evidently does. For, it is credible on observable and observed signs, that our cosmos had a beginning at a finite distance in the past, so it is a contingent being,. One that has a begin-ner external to it. And, as the previously linked shows, even through a multiverse speculation, that simply pushes the contingency back one step, as we now have to ask, what is the explanation of he finely tuned "cosmos bakery" that is capable of putting out fine tuned life-facilitating sub-cosmi like the one we inhabit. That fine tuning points as well to certain characteristics of such a necessary being root cause: purposefulness, power, knowledge and skill. All of which are attributes of intelligence. So, we are looking at an extra-cosmic, necessary being, with purpose, skill and intelligence sufficient to create at least one physical cosmos. Such a being would be reasonably described as the God. So, to dismiss such a chain of reasoning implies that there is a controlling, question-begging metaphysical a priori at work, specifically materialism. Which -- never mind its dominance among elites in various institutions -- is demonstrably a self referentially incoherent, self-refuting, necessarily false worldview. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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P: I am afraid that is just what you have done again. The issue addressed by design theory is not whether an intelligent designer is a logically possible state of affairs in our cosmos. The issue is whether there are observable, empirically reliable signs of intelligence as acting cause, and in particular that on observing such signs, one may reasonably infer therefrom to the objective state of affairs, that design was the relevant cause. This on inference to best, empirically anchored explanation. Above, I have summarised and linked on why I and many others believe this is correct. Kindly, respond to it, and also to the narrowed question by Brent. For, it seems to us that the reason why that infverence in the cotngext of origins science is being dismissed and diverted from to try to raise discussions on religion and suggest tyrannical theocratic agendas, is that there is a successful imposition in key institutions of Sagan-Lewontin style a priori evolutionary materialism. An imposition that is plainly censoring science form the ability to pursue the truth about our world based on evidence. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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kairosfocus, I'm not dismissing design "thought" and I'm not dismissing intelligence "thought". I've said several times that I think that an intelligent designer of some sort is possible. What I'm dismissing is a God(s) and religion "thought". The thing is though, that it really doesn't matter what I accept or dismiss when it comes to whether science will ever accept ID theory as being scientific (or credible). I'm just one person and science is much bigger than any one person. I have to get some sleep now.Pachyaena
February 24, 2011
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P: Re: Science can’t make any ‘conclusions’, or at least no credible ones, unless it has the means to observe and/or test things. Your God or any other God isn’t observable, or testable. Pardon, but this is triply fallacious:
1: This is a subject-changing strawman argument, as the design inference is an inference about cause on observation and analysis. 2: A great many key explanatory constructs in science are inferred not observed, and we hold them to be quite well established, e.g. can you show me a picture of entropy, or of an electron? 3: As to the observability and testability of what many would call God as Creator, the evidence of the origin of our cosmos at a finite point in time, thus its contingency, multiplied by the evidence of its fine-tuning to support life has a very interesting import on inference to best warranted explanation:
a: the radical contingency of the cosmos entails the existence of a necessary being as root cause [in the old days before that origin was solidly established, the necessary being was routinely thought to be our observed universe as an eternally existing entity]. b: Such a necessary being, is one that has no causally necessary factors external to itself, and as such does not have a beginning nor would it go out of existence. (Contrast a fire that depends on air, heat and fuel, each being necessary, and the three being jointly sufficient.) c: Further to this, the fine-tuning of the cosmos that supports intelligent life, points to an INTELLIGENCE as being involved with that necessary being. d: Also, we consider the power, skill and knowledge required to create such a cosmos. e: so, we see a cluster of observable evidence, testable by further observations, that point to a necessary, intelligent, extremely powerful and knowledgeable being as the most credible explanation of our cosmos. f: All, well within Newton's canons of "Natural Philosophy."
GEM of TKI PS: On the specifically Christian side, the evidence put forth in summary here, points to such a God who "tabernacled" among us. So, since you have the opportunity to examine the evidence, I suggest that you should do so without selectively hyperskeptical dismissals, if you are determined to live towards the truth and the right.
kairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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My comments above (No. 283) are directed to Brent (regarding No. 281).Pachyaena
February 24, 2011
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7 --> Again, Q: Do we observe such FSCO/I being caused by undirected forces of chance [stochastic, credibly undirected contingency] and/or mechanical necessity of natural law forces? A: No, there are no credible cases in point. 8 --> So, those who view design theory as a reasonable scientific project find that we have here a reliable empirical induction, yielding an observable sign that points to design as credible, objective, causal state of affairs. 9 --> That, in turn is backed up by the sort of infinite monkeys analysis that also supports key laws of physics such as the second law of thermodynamics, statistical form. 10 --> So, on the uniformity principle of origins science [suggested by Newton, and used by the likes of Lyell and Darwin, and onwards down to today], we infer that it is a reasonable and scientific principle to infer from FSCO/I to the signified cause, design, on the warrant that such is inductively strong and analytically supported. 11 --> So, from this, with the observation of abundant FSCO/I in unicellular life forms [including the most primitive] -- starting with DNA -- and much larger increments of that in the major body plans, we infer that it is credible that a significant causal process involved in the origin of life and that of major body plans was design. 12 --> Similarly, when we see the credible origin of our observed cosmos at a finite point in time, and the associated complex fine-tuning of the physics of that cosmos that facilitates such C-chemistry, cell based life, we find it reasonable to infer that the cosmos we inhabit was also designed, with the evident purpose of supporting life. 13 --> An inspection of the chain of reasoning and supportive evidence will reveal that at no point has an unsupported metaphysical assumption been injected as a controlling a priori. 14 --> Nor, has the reasoning strayed from the canons of scientific investigation on empirical evidence, observation and reasoned analysis controlled by that evidence. 15 --> So, we conclude that the inference/explanatory model is properly scientific, and should be investigated further. 16 --> While this may be friendly to theistic worldviews [especially on teh cosmological side], the root is a matter of empirical facts, observed causes and related analysis of why the observations are why they are as they are, not appeal to religious texts, or to unsupported a priori metaphysical impositions. 18 --> Precisely opposite to the way that through the stalking horse of so-called methodological naturalism, a priori evolutionary materialism has been injected into too much of current origins science and related education. 19 --> And, when I look at your response above, I find, P, that it is evasive rather than responsive on the merits. You have specific evidence, analysis and inferences. ________________ Kindly, please address such on the merits. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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P: Let's see your response to the definition of ID as science I provided in 253, point 2, above:
[P, 280:] I’ve already said that I think ID is possible. Not necessarily exactly as you or some other ID adherents see it but possible in some way. It has already been challenged by many people and it hasn’t settled a thing. At this point in time, it seems fruitless to nitpick the details. In time, more evidence will be found and understood that will help to determine whether materialistic or intelligent causes are behind life and/or everything else. I can wait.
1 --> Now, the heart of that definition was this:
Intelligent design (ID) is the view that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that “certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection” [1] Intelligent design cannot be inferred from complexity alone, since complex patterns often happen by chance. ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan. According to adherents, intelligent design can be detected in the natural laws and structure of the cosmos; it also can be detected in at least some features of living things.
2 --> In turn, this was in response to a comment you had made earlier, which I take must be seen as the context for interpreting your remarks on the definition, from 280 above:
[P, 251, as marked up in 253:]The point I’m trying to get across is that science will not accept a religious [materialistic atheism] based idea. I know, you said that ID [methodological naturalism] is scientific and that religious [atheistical] people are drawn to it because they think it helps to verify their beliefs. But, and this is a big but, as long as religious [atheistical] comments of any kind are made in any article, discussion, or debate about ID [origins science], ID [origins science] will be thought of (by science and science supporters) as merely a religious [materialistic] idea and agenda
3 --> Do you see why I have said in effect that you are indulging an ideologically loaded, question-begging, selectively hyperskeptical dismissal of design thought? 4 --> On the merits, the issue pivots on this: [Q 3:] are functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] empirically testable and reliable signs of design as materially significant cause? 5 --> In turn, this all pivots on the [glorified common-sense] point -- never mind the side-tracking objections of a certain Mr "Tanner" -- that we routinely observe patterns of signs and infer to objective states of affairs and/or objects, on a warrant:
I: [si] --> O, on W
6 --> So, Q: is it true that we routinely observe FSCO/I to be the result of intelligent cause? A: Plainly, yes, as posts in this thread and millions of other cases in point demonstrate. Indeed, the Glasgow Coma Scale, used in life and death head trauma situations, is an inference to design on FSCI. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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Science can't make any 'conclusions', or at least no credible ones, unless it has the means to observe and/or test things. Your God or any other God isn't observable, or testable. The suggestions you're thinking of are determined and biased by your religious beliefs. If anything, you have a priori beliefs and want to fit the science to those beliefs. Yeah, I know, some scientists want to 'adjust' the science too but it's usually not because of their religious beliefs and especially not if they're evolutionary biologists or in a similar field. When scientists 'adjust' the science it's usually because of a desire for money (grants, etc.), fame, reputation, promotion, job security, etc. Some scientists may adjust the science because of their atheism but that doesn't make it okay for religious people to do the same thing. No possible things should be left out of science IF those things actually are possible and are verifiable (or not) through sound scientific methods. Why do you want science to verify and substantiate your religious beliefs, or even care if it does?Pachyaena
February 24, 2011
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P: First, I agree with Brent's narrowed question (once the context is held in hand):
[Q1c:] “Why do you think it is OK to rule out, beforehand, any possible conclusions from science, whether those conclusions suggest [or, support worldview possibilities such as] the existence of God or anything else?”
Kindly notice, I have specifically laid out a description of science as it should seek to be here. Let me scoop it out [in a fairly detailed form], and ask you to address it as a part of your response to Brent's narrowed question Q 1c:
science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:
a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical -- real-world, on the ground -- observations and measurements, b: inference to best current -- thus, always provisional -- abductive explanation of the observed facts, c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein's favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments], d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and, e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, "the informed" is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)
As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.
If you compare my excerpt from Newton's Opticks, Query 31, and context at 253 - 254 [point 6] above, you will see much of where I am coming form, and the links where I have scooped from will show more. (BTW, observe from point 10, 254, how N says that the disucssion of worldview level implications is a reasonable part of Natural Philosphy, which in those days was seen as the context of work that when it delivered solid findings, those findings were to be seen as Scientia, knowledge, however constrained by the limits of inductive reasoning.) So, it is time to ask another question, too:
[Q 2:] If "science" in your view [and that of the neo-magisterium in the holy lab coat that rules the roost in key institutions] is constrained to materialistic consequences and by materialistic assumptions [a la Sagan and Lewontin, NAS, NSTA, NCSE, Coyne et al], regardless of impact on ability to find truth about our world, why should we prefer to do "science" rather than Newtonian style "Natural Philosophy" [and related "Natural History"] -- precisely because they seek and do not censor inquiries directed at the truth backed up by observable evidence?
In the context of these questions, I will next turn to the issue of your response to an acceptable, reasonable definition of ID, and the associated rationale for why it is to be seen as properly scientific. (Mind you -- as Plantinga reminded us so sharply -- the question of what is rapidly becoming an honourific label, is less important than the question of seeking the reasonable truth about our world in light of evidence and reasoned analysis.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 24, 2011
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Pach, Well, at least GEM and I want you to address this one specific question. I think that it's obvious that if we don't narrow this down this conversation will go nowhere. So: “Why do you think it [may be?] justified or even permissible to a priori rule out any conclusions from science, whether they [e.g. the implications of cosmological expansion, and red shift, that the cosmos has a beginning at a definite time, also, fine tuning of the cosmos, and the FSCO/I in DNA and its increments to account for body plans, etc] suggest [to many informed onlookers or even participants -- up to and including Nobel and Equivalent Prize holders] the existence of God or anything else?” I'll give you a rephrased version to ensure that you know the heart of the question: “Why do you think it is OK to rule out, beforehand, any possible conclusions from science, whether those conclusions suggest the existence of God or anything else?”Brent
February 23, 2011
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Sonfaro, You said: "This has nothing to do with ID." That's right. Your religious beliefs and indoctrination into them have nothing to do with ID, if ID is merely a scientific theory. And if ID is merely a scientific theory, then why do you and many others bring up religious beliefs and Gods when talking about ID? "If indeed the observations made by Behe and others are acurate, and if indeed the universe is fine tuned for life, then my God – the God some people think is mere delusion – suddenly becomes a possibility." No. Your God is no more possible even if ID turns out to be a valid scientific theory. Unless ID actually shows evidence or proof of your chosen God, the possibility of your God is unchanged by anything that has to do with ID. "I’m willing to say I could be wrong. Why aren’t you?" Because your God or any other Gods have no evidence whatsoever to verify them. Many people have tried for thousands of years to prove that their God is authentic. None have succeeded. All the Gods humans have invented are simply preposterous. "But if the claims of ID are true, then why shouldn’t I, a believer in a SPECIFIC Creator, be overjoyed that there appears to be evidence for even a GENERIC-deistic creator the even the unbeliever can see." Because even if ID theory turns out to be valid, it doesn't have any evidence or proof of your God. Your God is a specific claim. ID is a 'general theory' about intelligent design, not any Gods, that is of course if ID theory is truly a scientific idea and not a ruse or platform to push religious beliefs and/or a God or Gods. "Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Unicorn God? These are the arguments of a highschool atheist trying to convince a highschool theist that they are living in fantasy. It’s kinda uneducated, and it’s downright boring." There's as much factual evidence in favor of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or a unicorn God as there is for your God or any other God. I said: “Any imaginary being(s) or thing(s) can be imagined to be compatible with ID or creation if someone wants it badly enough.” And you said: "Right, I agree. What does that have to do with the science that gets us to that conclusion?" What science? What conclusion? The science of ID, which allegedly has nothing to do with religion or Gods, or an erroneous conclusion that ID or science of any kind supports the existence of your God or any other Gods? "Once we get to the point of ‘Who is the creator’ we drop out of science and into speculation and guess work." Yes, it is speculation and guesswork, which isn't scientific. "It isn’t science anymore at that point. It’s guessing and faith. Sure. But that doesn’t change the work that led us there. That remains constant." What work? What "work" leads to faith and guessing? If you're referring to ID theory, it can't honestly be said that the "work" on it led you to believe in your God. You already believed in your God before ID theory came about and you said yourself that you were indoctrinated into religion by your parents, not by any "work" pertaining to ID. Christianity began a long time ago, WAY before anyone ever thought of the current ID theory. ID theory had and has nothing to do with people adhering to Christianity or any other religion. Some religious people have latched onto ID to convince themselves (and try to convince others) that their beliefs were right all along. I find it interesting that some religious people want or even expect science to verify that their 'faith' isn't misplaced. "Kairosfocus posted a description of ID from an encyclopedia and asked you: “A civil response, would be to address this on the merits. If you disagree, show why”" I've already said that I think ID is possible. Not necessarily exactly as you or some other ID adherents see it but possible in some way. It has already been challenged by many people and it hasn't settled a thing. At this point in time, it seems fruitless to nitpick the details. In time, more evidence will be found and understood that will help to determine whether materialistic or intelligent causes are behind life and/or everything else. I can wait. "We’re asking for a reasoned argument. And you’ve given us a materialist spiel most of us have heard in one form or another." Faith and guessing are not reasoned arguments. Material things are all that science should be concerned with. If ID can't be verified materially, it isn't a scientific theory. "You’re on an ID board. Some of us are religious." You make it sound like religion and ID go together. If they do, then ID isn't scientific. "I know somebody else in the thread brought God up first, but c’mon, lets be honest with ourselves. If you want to talk about ID lets do so. But if all you want to do is rail at religion or religious people please do it where that sort of thing is applauded." And if you and others want to talk about religion and Gods, maybe you should do it on a Gods or religious board. If ID is supposed to be a scientific theory, religion and Gods should be completely left out of it. Religion and Gods saturate this website. A website that is allegedly about the scientific theory of ID. If your desire (or agenda) is to get science to accept ID as a scientific theory, you're doing your desire (or agenda) more harm than good, by injecting religion and Gods into ID and any discussion of it. "Challenge ID for the science behind it please, not the faith-based beliefs of people who support it." Then promote and discuss ID strictly for the science behind it and stop challenging atheists or others who aren't interested in any connection between religious beliefs or Gods and ID.Pachyaena
February 23, 2011
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Pach, seriously? How many ways do I have to say it so you understand me dude? I make the claims because I'm religious. I was brought up in a religious house hold - indoctrinated if you want to use the hyperskeptic materialistic worldview (which annoys me because we're all 'indoctrinated' by our parents/guardians in one way or another). The claims I make are those of the worldview I've been brought up with and lived by. Could they be wrong? Sure, why not. This has nothing to do with ID. The science: irreducible complexity, the fine tuned universe, ect... heck, we can throw the big bang in there too. They all appear to point to a creator. They don't say who or what the creator is. Just that there appears to be one. So if there IS a creator, MY natural response is to associate that creator with MY God because that fits MY worldview. Maybe it doesn't fit yours. But it fits mine. You say: "In the alleged science behind ID, where does it say that your world view is supported or affirmed? In other words, where does it say that the God you have chosen actually exists, and is the one and only God and that the Christian Bible is the word of your chosen God and that everything in the Bible is true and accurate?" I answered this already Pach. If indeed the observations made by Behe and others are acurate, and if indeed the universe is fine tuned for life, then my God - the God some people think is mere delusion - suddenly becomes a possibility. Merely the evidence of a Creator would be support for me. Which is what this is. Not definitive proof. But support. Maybe not as much as the possibility of Aliens or some mystic unspecific 'life force' or whatever it is you were okay with the creator being. But the possibility is still increased in my opinion. And that's what it is Pach. My opinion. Like your opinion that Religion is false. The difference, at least how I see it, is that I've at least tried to be honest with what I do know and don't know. I've made no illusion to my worldview in this thread, but I've tried to be open about the possibility of being incorrect. But in several of your posts you made comments that you'll see in any hard atheist website. And when we asked you to keep an open mind you stated ”...I will decide what’s absurd to me.” I'm willing to say I could be wrong. Why aren't you? My God may indeed not exist. I have no problem saying that. If evidence - true evidence - came out to the contrary I don't think the way I live my life would change too much. I might be depressed for a few weeks, but I'd get over it. But if the claims of ID are true, then why shouldn't I, a believer in a SPECIFIC Creator, be overjoyed that there appears to be evidence for even a GENERIC-deistic creator the even the unbeliever can see. "Believing that the Flying Spaghetti Monster or a unicorn God created and designed everything would be just as “compatible” with ID or creation as your beliefs are. Any imaginary being(s) or thing(s) can be imagined to be compatible with ID or creation if someone wants it badly enough. What you or anyone else have “imagined” or do imagine isn’t evidence, and it certainly isn’t scientific." Two steps back dude. Flying Spaghetti Monsters? Unicorn God? These are the arguments of a highschool atheist trying to convince a highschool theist that they are living in fantasy. It's kinda uneducated, and it's downright boring. Specifically though, you say: "Any imaginary being(s) or thing(s) can be imagined to be compatible with ID or creation if someone wants it badly enough." Right, I agree. What does that have to do with the science that gets us to that conclusion? Once we get to the point of 'Who is the creator' we drop out of science and into speculation and guess work. We Christians have a pretty good idea that our evidence for our God is solid... but then again so do our Muslim cousins, and our Jewish brothers, and the Hindu, and the Bahi and Deists and on and on. It isn't science anymore at that point. It's guessing and faith. Sure. But that doesn't change the work that led us there. That remains constant. There are times Pachyeana that you seem informed, balanced, and capable of having a conversation. And then there are posts like the one you just made, that leave you indistinguishable from the kind of internet-trolls that follow PZ Myers. I'm sorry if that offends but I see no other way to describe your actions in this thread. Kairosfocus posted a description of ID from an encyclopedia and asked you: "A civil response, would be to address this on the merits. If you disagree, show why" That's what we're asking from you. We're not saying "Come to Jesus or burn!" I don't even thing BA77 would say that. And he's hardcore for Christ (love 'ya BA ;) ) We're asking for a reasoned argument. And you've given us a materialist spiel most of us have heard in one form or another. You're on an ID board. Some of us are religious. Shockingly though, there are religious people on non-religious boards around the world. Doesn't change what the board is about. I know somebody else in the thread brought God up first, but c'mon, lets be honest with ourselves. If you want to talk about ID lets do so. But if all you want to do is rail at religion or religious people please do it where that sort of thing is applauded. Challenge ID for the science behind it please, not the faith-based beliefs of people who support it. - Sonfaro (To anyone, if I have been in error or unclear in anything I wrote in this post, please correct me. I don't want to keep arguing in circles. It's not healthy. :( )Sonfaro
February 23, 2011
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Pach you state; 'Notice that your first statement specified “God”, while your second statement said “intelligence”. Moving the goalposts is a futile endeavor.' Baby steps are needed before you can walk pach, so I would like for you to at least admit the necessity for intelligence. Or are you saying that you are comfortable with some type of Intelligence just so long as it is not the Judeo-Christian God? and if so, Just what type of transcendent Intelligence would you be comfortable with pach. so as to explain the origination and extreme fine-tuning of the universe?,,, And if not please tell me of the many materialistic conjectures that you claim have been postulated to explain such overwhelming appearance of design.bornagain77
February 23, 2011
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Sonfaro said: "Of course he believes creation and design are linked: He’s a Christian. It’s part of the worldview!" "We flock to ID because our worldview is supported." "Again: Religious folks like myself, like BA’77, like other Christians on this board flock to the SCIENTIFIC THEORY that our world was DESIGNED because it affirms our worldview. We already believed there was a designer – now suddenly there seems to be evidence for him in nature, in space, in physics, all around." "Of course ID has no real say who the creator is. Most of us have already… for lack of a better word… “imagined” what he/she/it is already." "The SCIENCE behind ID makes NO CLAIMS as to who the Creator is. Those who are already Religious may make all the claims we want (and trust me, we will.) ID is compatible with all of them… From Deism to Pantheism. But that’s all it is. Compatable. Seeing the designs in action doesn’t directly point to what the designer would be like. ID is most definitely a science." -------------------------- So, if the science behind ID makes no claims as to who the creator is, how do you know it's a "who" (instead of a what, an it, or a bunch of whos, whats, or its) and how do you know it's a "him". In the alleged science behind ID, where does it say that your world view is supported or affirmed? In other words, where does it say that the God you have chosen actually exists, and is the one and only God and that the Christian Bible is the word of your chosen God and that everything in the Bible is true and accurate? Believing that the Flying Spaghetti Monster or a unicorn God created and designed everything would be just as "compatible" with ID or creation as your beliefs are. Any imaginary being(s) or thing(s) can be imagined to be compatible with ID or creation if someone wants it badly enough. What you or anyone else have "imagined" or do imagine isn't evidence, and it certainly isn't scientific.Pachyaena
February 23, 2011
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Dr bot I'm not implying design. I carefully try not to make strong statements re. biological systems as I have only somewhat more than basic knowledge in biology. Regarding going simpler than what we see I think we should remember stability of the discreet units. Albert Einstein said: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." If I was creating a system I would go as basic as possible but keeping in mind reliability of my components. I would look for solutions where my system could have redundancy and some form of error correction. Now , looking at two DNA strands of bases it appears to me they are backup for each other (redundancy) with the added bonus of physically stabilizing the structure. Also, sequenced complimentary pairs provide easy setup for basic error correction. Twist in strands encloses bases and probably protects them that way. Also, it makes it easier to twist further into tight, very protective and compact structures. There is something interesting going on with codon table but that will be in the next post. Biologists can shoot me down in flames but I'll have some fun first. Jesuit credo: It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.Eugen
February 23, 2011
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Dr Bot: Well you know, the referenced item that is held to be an empirically well supported sign of design is FSCO/I. That, because with an info sto4age capacity of 1,000 or more bits, you start at 10^301 possible configs. So, if you are in an island of function that is fairly specific [and coded programs and languages are specific], since such a config space is well beyond the search capacity of the cosmos, it is maximally unlikely to find such an island of function through a random walk from an arbitrary initial config, on the gamut of the observable cosmos. That is because the resources of he whole cosmos of 10^80 or so atoms, working for 10^25 s [credible lifespan], 50 mn times the duration since the estimated singularity,and incrementing in Planck time steps [~ 10^20 faster than strong nuclear force interactions], would only go through 10^150 atomic states, i.e 1 in 10^150 or less, a practical zero scope search. Our routine experience is that FSCI of at least 1,000 bits, or 125 bytes, is uniformly the observed result of intelligence that specifies what is desired and uses smarts to do it. So now, when we see such FSCI in the code in DNA, what is that telling us is the best explanation? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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