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Controversy swirls around last common ancestor of placental mammals

Is the molecular clock right (88-117 mya) or are the bones right (65 mya)?

File:Southern short-tailed shrew.jpg

American short-tailed shrew

Further to “New biogeography book argues for chance survivals, not continental drift …,” a new clocks versus rocks study has got the fur flying, says The Scientist:

Genetic studies that compare the DNA of living placentals suggest that our last common ancestor lived between 88 million and 117 million years ago, when the dinosaurs still ruled.

The last common ancestor is said to be a shrew-like creature.

But last year, a team of scientists led by Maureen O’Leary from Stony Brook University challenged this timeline. Through an extraordinarily detailed analysis of the bones of 86 mammals, both living and extinct, O’Leary and her colleagues concluded that placentals arose shortly after the point when the non-bird dinosaurs went extinct—the so-called K/T boundary.

Abut 65 million years ago.

Now, a trio of British researchers have hit back at O’Leary’s study, accusing it of “serious shortcomings.” In a strongly worded paper published today (January 14) in Biology Letters, the authors write that the team has reignited a controversy that “has otherwise been settled.”

Move right along, folks, nothing to see here:

“There’s nothing really wrong with either set of analyses,” Bininda-Emonds continued. “Both are robust. The real problem is that the methods are fundamentally different and make fundamentally different assumptions, so that there’s little point in comparing the apples with the oranges.”

Unless, of course, time periods matter.

Note: Maureen O’Leary. No known relation of UD news writer Denyse O’Leary

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38 Responses to Controversy swirls around last common ancestor of placental mammals

  1. And since the most fundamental assumption of all, reductive materialism, is now known to be wrong, doesn’t that make this esoteric cat fight in Darwinism seem a bit like watching pro-wrestling?

    Pro wrestling is FAKE!!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcwjVz1SGU0

    Note:

    Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....i7t6wfpg8g

    Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism – By Bruce L Gordon:
    Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world.
    http://www.4truth.net/fourtrut.....8589952939

  2. Some of us didn’t get the impression that the bad feeling among the combatants reported on at The Scientist is faked. Something’s at stake.

  3. News, agreed bad analogy, perhaps a better one is this:

    Pointless Counter Pointless – Big Bird vs. Oscar the Grouch – video
    http://www.colbertnation.com/t.....the-grouch

  4. So nobody is wrong but there is a disagreement about a conclusion.
    I say both are wrong.
    Placentals include marsupials. This old divisions in biology are false. tHere are just kinds. nO mammals. reptiles, dinos etc etc.
    they just have like features for like needs. iTs not a roadmap to their common descent. Its all just presumed .
    stop looking at fossils and genetics for conclusions on biology.
    its flawed reasoning if i may say so evolutiondom.

  5. Irrespective of what the biologist debate is about the Cretaceous–Paleogene (K–Pg) boundary age is in the order of 66 million years ago.

    See,

    Husson, D., Galbrun, B., Laskar, J., Hinnov, L. A., Thibault, N., Gardin, S., & Locklair, R. E. (2011). Astronomical calibration of the Maastrichtian (late Cretaceous). Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 305(3), 328-340.

    The placental debate is if there was a Palaeogene origin of placental mammals or if it was before that. ID/creationist journals will never answer that one as they can’t even decide if the world is 6,000 years or 4.5 billion years !

  6. Lincoln Phipps, as an atheistic materialist yourself, don’t you have quite a bit more on your plate that is left unresolved than the ‘dreaded’ creationists do?

    Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables – Scott Aaronson (MIT – quantum computation)
    Excerpt: “Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!”
    http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.html

  7. podcast – “David Berlinski on Cladistics and Darwin’s Doubt, pt. 1″
    http://intelligentdesign.podom.....9_45-08_00

  8. It’s surprising that the fossil record and molecular clock would contradict at all, seeing as the molecular clock is based off of the fossil record:

    “But before any clock can work, it has to be calibrated, he added. Setting a molecular clock “begins with a known, like the fossil record,” for a specific species. Then, once the rate of mutation is determined, calculating the time of divergence of that species becomes relatively easy.”
    http://phys.org/_news146418967.html

    The fact that the molecular clock has to be calibrated after a new fossil find just shows how useless it is. And even if it doesn’t contradict the fossil record, it literally means nothing because it’s essentially using the fossil record to support the fossil record: circular reasoning at its finest.

    If they so clearly contradict each other, how about questioning the one assumption that the methods have in common? (Common descent)

  9. bornagain77, I see you are ever seeking solace in quantum mechanics as if the quantum scale doesn’t apply to you too. That’s called special pleading.

    You can try and claim that it is not relevant as to when something occurred if it happened more than planck time before now() but such an argument applies too all irrespective of what you think the philosophical beliefs of the other people are.

    I suspect though that you would not use such arguments against others here. You are a one-trick pony. You copy and paste quantum mechanics like it is magic pixie dust to bolster your opinion that somehow materialism is false.

    You forget that the quantum scale is part of nature too. It’s so much part of the material world that you can actually buy electronic components that use quantum mechanics. Tunnel diodes work inside or outside a church and with or without prayer.

    I posted Cretaceous–Paleogene (K–Pg) boundary age as being in the order of 66 million years ago. See,

    Husson, D., Galbrun, B., Laskar, J., Hinnov, L. A., Thibault, N., Gardin, S., & Locklair, R. E. (2011). Astronomical calibration of the Maastrichtian (late Cretaceous). Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 305(3), 328-340.

    That is an accurate figure. What is not accurate is the arrival of placental mammals before or after that event. That’s up to palaeontologists to work on.

  10. sixthbook,

    the very old fossil records are calibrated from geology by how the fossil sediments are bracketed by other rocks. These other rocks are calibrated from radiometric dating data. That is very robust science.

    http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/radiometric.html

    In some respects I pity the Old Earth ID supporter given the YEC clowns that have hitched a ride on the ID bandwagon. On the other hand they are funny.

  11. Lincoln Phipps @ 10 announced

    the very old fossil records are calibrated from geology by how the fossil sediments are bracketed by other rocks. These other rocks are calibrated from radiometric dating data. That is very robust science.

    And geologic strata are dated using “indicator fossils.” Round the circle we go. Whee! LOL.

    It’s not robust, it’s pathetic. This is more like soap-opera than science.

    When I first realized that the evolutionary Biology and Geology are set up to reference each other, it was the first crack in my Darwinist faith.

    -Q

  12. Querius,

    I see your reading problem – what part of “These other rocks are calibrated from radiometric dating data.” do you have problems understanding ?

  13. Querius,

    index fossils are a handy and cheap rule of thumb but they have already been pre-calibrated.

    This is like how if you measure a temperature with a probe then it says a number that is deemed accurate because it has already been independently calibrated using a different mechanism.

    You seem to think that if a probe says 90 degrees C then this is a circular argument that your pot roast is 90 deg C because the probe says so. Seriously retarded logic you and sal have there.

  14. Lincoln Phipps, not to be rude, but you display a gross ignorance of philosophy, and/or the actual structure of reality, as revealed by modern science, when you state stuff like the following:

    “You copy and paste quantum mechanics like it is magic pixie dust to bolster your opinion that somehow materialism is false.
    You forget that the quantum scale is part of nature too. It’s so much part of the material world that you can actually buy electronic components that use quantum mechanics. Tunnel diodes work inside or outside a church and with or without prayer.”

    Perhaps, Mr. Phipps, you should see what your atheistic philosophy actually claims as to the structure of reality before you spout such incoherent nonsense?:

    Materialism
    In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that all things are composed of material, and that all emergent phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material properties and interactions. In other words, the theory claims that our reality consists entirely of physical matter that is the sole cause of every possible occurrence, including human thought, feeling, and action.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

    That is your ‘bottom up’ atheistic/materialistic picture of the universe, Mr. Phipps! A grandiose claim for reality if ever there were one. A claim requiring an extraordinary blind faith to believe that not only is the unfathomable complexity/information being found in life is held to simply be ‘emergent’ from a ‘bottom up’ material basis, but even consciousness itself is said to ‘emerge’ from a material basis. Materialists, despite their arrogant, dogmatic, condescending attitude towards anyone who doubts their over the top claims for the structure of reality, not only don’t have any evidence whatsoever that functional complexity/information can ‘emerge’ from a material basis, but materialists/atheists also have no clue whatsoever as to how consciousness can possibly ‘emerge’ from a material basis.

    The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel – Null Hypothesis For Information Generation – 2009
    To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis.
    http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf
    Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation)
    1) Mathematical Logic
    2) Algorithmic Optimization
    3) Cybernetic Programming
    4) Computational Halting
    5) Integrated Circuits
    6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium)
    7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics)
    8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system
    9) Language
    10) Formal function of any kind
    11) Utilitarian work
    http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag

    Darwinian Psychologist David Barash Admits the Seeming Insolubility of Science’s “Hardest Problem”
    Excerpt: ‘But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can’t even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don’t even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.’
    David Barash – Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....52491.html

    The Hard Problem (Of Consciousness) – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRG1fA_DQ9s

    Neuroscientist: “The Most Seamless Illusions Ever Created” – April 2012
    Excerpt: We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.
    Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor
    http://darwins-god.blogspot.co.....sions.html

    Nuerosurgeon Dr. Eben Alexander Says It’s Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten – 10/24/2013
    Excerpt: As long as scientists hold onto that simplistic (materialistic) thinking they are going to be mired down to never, ever explain consciousness or the enigmas of quantum mechanics. But there are a lot of scientists out there who do get it,,,
    The pure scientific materialist model that I worshiped for so many years has absolutely nothing to offer up in terms of explaining how consciousness might emerge from the physical brain.,,,
    consciousness is a far deeper, more profound mystery than “kindergarten level” scientific materialism offers up. Now that’s why I include in my book the hard problem of consciousness and the enigma of quantum mechanics.,,,
    It’s time for brain science, mind science, physics, cosmology, to move from kindergarten up into first grade and realize we will never truly understand consciousness with that simplistic materialist mindset.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....51093.html

    Perhaps you would like to actually falsify the null hypothesis Mr. Phipps before you condemn anyone who doubts your materialistic religion that you have so much blind faith in???

  15. Mr. Phipps, the actual structure of reality as revealed by modern science, contrary to what you so blindly believe to be true, reveals a ‘top down’ Theistic structure to reality where consciousness is not emergent from material reality but is primary to material reality coming into existence. To further clarify this ‘top down’ Theistic structure for the universe, materialism had postulated for centuries (since at least the ancient Greeks) that life emerged ‘bottom up’, from material atoms and/or particles, yet the correct structure of reality is now found by modern science to be as follows:

    1. material particles/atoms (mass) normally reduce to energy (e=mc^2)
    2. energy and mass both reduce to quantum information (A. Zeilinger, quantum teleportation; Wheeler and Zeilinger’s ‘It from Bit”)
    3. quantum information reduces to consciousness (geometric centrality of conscious observation in universe dictates that consciousness must precede quantum wave collapse to its single bit state) (Leggett’s Inequalities, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice; Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries; Quantum Zeno Effect)

    Here are my references for the claim that mass “normally reduces” to energy:

    The reduction of matter to energy is comparatively easy to accomplish as is demonstrated by the detonation of nuclear/atomic bombs:

    Atomic Bomb Explosion – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-22tna7KHzI

    *6.4 mg of mass converted to energy in Hiroshima A-bomb
    *4,400,000 Hiroshima A-bombs equivalent to one ounce of mass
    *1 drop of water equivalent to 10 Hiroshima A-bombs

    Whereas to convert energy to matter is a far more difficult proposition:

    Why is it impossible, at this point in time, to convert energy into matter?
    Excerpt: “Particle accelerators convert energy into subatomic particles, for example by colliding electrons and positrons. Some of the kinetic energy in the collision goes into creating new particles.
    It’s not possible, however, to collect these newly created particles and assemble them into atoms, molecules and bigger (less microscopic) structures that we associate with ‘matter’ in our daily life. This is partly because in a technical sense, you cannot just create matter out of energy: there are various ‘conservation laws’ of electric charges, the number of leptons (electron-like particles) etc., which means that you can only create matter/anti-matter pairs out of energy. Anti-matter, however, has the unfortunate tendency to combine with matter and turn itself back into energy. Even though physicists have managed to safely trap a small amount of anti-matter using magnetic fields, this is not easy to do.
    Also, Einstein’s equation, Energy = Mass x the square of the velocity of light, tells you that it takes a huge amount of energy to create matter in this way. The big accelerator at Fermilab can be a significant drain on the electricity grid in and around the city of Chicago, and it has produced very little matter.
    http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/d.....0724a.html

    Moreover, it is interesting to note that a simple atom is certainly not as ‘simple’ as would have initially been believed from a materialistic perspective:

    Delayed time zero in photoemission: New record in time measurement accuracy – June 2010
    Excerpt: Although they could confirm the effect qualitatively using complicated computations, they came up with a time offset of only five attoseconds. The cause of this discrepancy may lie in the complexity of the neon atom, which consists, in addition to the nucleus, of ten electrons. “The computational effort required to model such a many-electron system exceeds the computational capacity of today’s supercomputers,” explains Yakovlev.
    http://www.physorg.com/news196606514.html

    Does the atom have a designer? When science and spirituality meet – LAKHI GOENKA an Engineer – May 2012
    Excerpt: Atoms are machines that enable the physical, electromagnetic (including light), nuclear, chemical, and biological (including life) functioning of the universe. Atoms are a complex assembly of interacting particles that enable the entire functioning of the universe. They are the machine that enables all other machines. It is virtually impossible to explain the structure, complexity, internal dynamics, and resulting functionality of the atom from chance events or through evolutionary mechanisms. The atom is a machine that provides multiple functions, and every machine is the product of intelligence. The atom must have a designer.
    http://www.annarbor.com/news/o.....-designer/

    Yet somehow, serendipitously, shortly after the big bang, and in the nucleosynthesis of stars, all the pieces of the puzzle ‘spontaneously’ fell together to get all these complex atoms, that can’t even be modeled by our best supercomputers, to form from energy:

    Big Bang
    After its (The Big Bang’s) initial expansion from a singularity, the Universe cooled sufficiently to allow energy to be converted into various subatomic particles, including protons, neutrons, and electrons.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

    The Elements: Forged in Stars – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003861

    “Dr. Michael Denton on Evidence of Fine-Tuning in the Universe” (Remarkable balance of various key elements for life) – podcast
    http://intelligentdesign.podom.....3_59-07_00

    I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars.
    Sir Fred Hoyle – “The Universe: Past and Present Reflections.” Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12

  16. Here are my references for the claim that “energy and mass both reduce to quantum information”:

    Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups
    Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,,
    http://www.rsc.org/chemistrywo.....ammeup.asp

    Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009
    Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,,
    “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....1769/posts

    New Breakthrough in (Quantum) Teleportation – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqZI31udJg
    Quote from preceding video:
    “There are 10^28 atoms in the human body.,, The amount of data contained in the whole human,, is 3.02 x 10^32 gigabytes of information. Using a high bandwidth transfer that data would take about 4.5 x 10^18 years to teleport 1 time. That is 350,000 times the age of the universe.”

    Physicists set new record for quantum teleportation with matter qubits – Apr 16, 2013
    Excerpt: “The greatest significance of our work is the dramatic increase in efficiency compared to previous realizations of matter-matter teleportation,” Nölleke said. “Besides, it is the first demonstration of matter-matter teleportation between truly independent systems and constitutes the current record in distance of 21 m. The previous record was 1 m.”
    http://phys.org/news/2013-04-p.....ubits.html

    How Teleportation Will Work -
    Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made.
    http://science.howstuffworks.c.....ation1.htm

    Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page
    Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,”
    http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862

    Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract
    Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,,
    http://www.sciencemag.org/cont.....6.abstract

    It is also very interesting to note that the quantum state of a photon is actually defined as ‘infinite information’ in its uncollapsed quantum wave state:

    Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia
    Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,,
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entr.....tcomp/#2.1

    Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh
    Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) — Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport.
    http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/fa.....lPSA2K.pdf

  17. As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger, with many astonishing breathroughs under his belt in quantum mechanics, has followed in John Archibald Wheeler’s footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is ‘information’, not material.

    “It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom – at a very deep bottom, in most instances – an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin.”
    John Archibald Wheeler

    Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe?
    Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.”
    Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation:
    http://www.metanexus.net/archi.....linger.pdf

    Here are my references for the claim that “quantum information reduces to consciousness”:

    Due to adavnces in quantum mechanics, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:

    1. Consciousness either preceded/precedes all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena/emergent’ property of/from material reality.
    2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality.
    3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality.
    4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality.

    Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Leggett’s Inequalities, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice; Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries; Quantum Zeno effect)
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit

    The Galileo Affair and Life/Consciousness as the true “Center of the Universe”
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit

    Of related note: The following site is also very interesting to the subject of consciousness preceding ‘material’ reality:

    The Scale of The Universe – Part 2 – interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features)
    http://htwins.net/scale2/scale.....olor=white

    The preceding interactive graph points out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which ‘just so happens’ to be directly in the exponential center of all possible sizes of our physical reality (not just ‘nearly’ in the exponential center!). i.e. 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of ‘observable’ length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. This is very interesting for, as far as I can tell, the limits to human vision (as well as the size of the human egg) could have, theoretically, been at very different positions than directly in the exponential middle!

    Moreover, the correct ‘top down’ structure for how reality is found to be constructed is closely reflected in how our bodies are also constructed in a ‘top down’ manner.

    1.The lowest level of our bodies are the material atoms of our body.
    2.The next higher level of our bodies is the energy of our bodies (biophotons).
    3.The next higher level of our bodies is the quantum entanglement/information of our bodies (of which the classical information that is encoded on our DNA is found to be a subset of).
    4. The highest level of our bodies is the consciousness of our mind.

    References:

    Light is found to be directing the chemical reactions of the material particles in the body by the following:

    Are humans really beings of light?
    Excerpt: “We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.”,,, “There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.”
    http://viewzone2.com/dna.html

    The face of a frog: Time-lapse video reveals never-before-seen bioelectric pattern – July 2011
    Excerpt: For the first time, Tufts University biologists have reported that bioelectrical signals are necessary for normal head and facial formation in an organism and have captured that process in a time-lapse video that reveals never-before-seen patterns of visible bioelectrical signals outlining where eyes, nose, mouth, and other features will appear in an embryonic tadpole.,,, “When a frog embryo is just developing, before it gets a face, a pattern for that face lights up on the surface of the embryo,”,,, “We believe this is the first time such patterning has been reported for an entire structure, not just for a single organ. I would never have predicted anything like it. It’s a jaw dropper.”,,,
    per physorg

    An Electric Face: A Rendering Worth a Thousand Falsifications – September 2011
    Excerpt: The video suggests that bioelectric signals presage the morphological development of the face. It also, in an instant, gives a peak at the phenomenal processes at work in biology. As the lead researcher said, “It’s a jaw dropper.”
    http://darwins-god.blogspot.co.....usand.html

    The (Electric) Face of a Frog – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VULjzX__OM

    Using light to control protein clustering – February 12, 2013
    Excerpt: Results of the study,, show how blue light can be used as a switch to prompt targeted proteins to accumulate into large clusters.,,
    “Our study shows a new use for using energy, in this case light, as a tool to understand and control cellular function. In this study, we demonstrated a new method for turning specific cell signaling pathways on and off with spatial and temporal precision, and use this to help better understand the dynamics of the pathway. At the same time, our technique can be used to control certain cell functions,” Kane and Schaffer said.,,,
    http://phys.org/news/2013-02-cell-clustering.html

    Optogenetic protein clustering and signaling activation in mammalian cells – January 2013
    Excerpt: We report an optogenetic method based on Arabidopsis thaliana cryptochrome 2 for rapid and reversible protein oligomerization in response to blue light. We demonstrated its utility by photoactivating the ?-catenin pathway, achieving a transcriptional response higher than that obtained with the natural ligand Wnt3a. We also demonstrated the modularity of this approach by photoactivating RhoA with high spatiotemporal resolution, thereby suggesting a previously unknown mode of activation for this Rho GTPase.
    http://www.nature.com/nmeth/jo......2360.html

  18. And here, ‘Theoretically’ reducing an entire human body to quantum information is discussed:

    New Breakthrough in (Quantum) Teleportation – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqZI31udJg
    Quote from video:
    “There are 10^28 atoms in the human body.,, The amount of data contained in the whole human,, is 3.02 x 10^32 gigabytes of information. Using a high bandwidth transfer that data would take about 4.5 x 10^18 years to teleport 1 time. That is 350,000 times the age of the universe.”

    Moreover, Quantum entanglement/information is now found in our body on a massive scale, in every protein and DNA molecule of the human body:

    Shortened, concise, form of evidence is here:
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-451051

    Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight – 2009
    Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn’t be able to.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible.
    http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_.....ave-t.html

    Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – short video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/

    Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011
    Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way.
    Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from.
    To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,,
    Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins.
    That’s a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo’s equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics.
    http://www.technologyreview.co.....n-folding/

    The implications of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum information/entanglement in our body on a massive scale are fairly self evident:

    Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012)
    Excerpt: The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,,
    “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,,
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....142217.htm

    Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff – video (notes in description)
    http://vimeo.com/29895068

    Of related note:

    The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology
    Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale
    with body size as power laws of the form:

    Y = Yo M^b,

    where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent.
    A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling.
    http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~dre.....18_257.pdf

    “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection.” Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79
    http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/

  19. It is also important to note that consciousness is now found to be ‘quantumly entangled’ in a fairly different way than the rest of the body:

    Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence/Conservation of Quantum Information) – Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video
    https://vimeo.com/39982578

    Brain ‘entanglement’ could explain memories – January 2010
    Excerpt: In both cases, the researchers noticed that the voltage of the electrical signal in groups of neurons separated by up to 10 millimetres sometimes rose and fell with exactly the same rhythm. These patterns of activity, dubbed “coherence potentials”, often started in one set of neurons, only to be mimicked or “cloned” by others milliseconds later. They were also much more complicated than the simple phase-locked oscillations and always matched each other in amplitude as well as in frequency. (Perfect clones) “The precision with which these new sites pick up on the activity of the initiating group is quite astounding – they are perfect clones,” says Plen
    http://www.newscientist.com/ar.....ories.html

    Moreover quantum information/entanglement is found to be ‘conserved’

    Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – March 2011
    Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed.
    http://phys.org/news/2011-03-q.....tally.html

    Quantum no-deleting theorem
    Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.....onsequence

    Additionally, encoded ‘classical’ information such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of conserved ‘non-local’, (beyond space and time), quantum entanglement/information by the following method:

    Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011
    Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect;
    In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.”
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....134300.htm

    Of related note:

    Quantum Entanglement and Information
    Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory.
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/

    Music and verse:

    The Police – Spirits In The Material World – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq0KW-_48Cc

    Luke 23:43
    Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

  20. Mr. Phipps, to shed further light on the ‘top down’ Theistic structure of reality, it is important to note higher dimensions, ‘if’ they exist, would be invisible to our physical 3 Dimensional sight. The reason why ‘higher dimensions’ are invisible to our 3D vision is best illustrated by ‘Flatland’:

    Dr. Quantum in Flatland – 3D in a 2D world – video
    http://www.disclose.tv/action/....._2D_world/

    Perhaps some may think that we have no real scientific evidence to support the view that higher ‘invisible’ dimensions are above this 3 Dimensional world, but a person would be wrong in that presumption. Higher invisible dimensions are corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please note the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light:

    Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/

    The preceding video was made by two Australian University physics professors. Here is the interactive website, which is related to the preceding video, with a link to their math at the bottom of the page:

    Seeing Relativity
    http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Searle/

    As well, as with the tunnel for special relativity to a higher dimension, we also have extreme ‘tunnel curvature’, within space-time, to an ‘event horizon’ at the surface of black holes;

    Space-Time of a Black hole
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8

    Of related note, it is also interesting to point out that a ‘tunnel’ to a higher dimension is also a common feature of Judeo-Christian Near Death Experiences:

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video
    https://vimeo.com/79072924

    “I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” –
    Vicki Noratuk’s NDE – (of note: although she was Blind since birth, she could see for the first time during her NDE, which is found to be a common experience for blind people during deep NDE’s)

    Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/

    Some atheists/materialists may want to write off the ‘observational evidence’ from Near Death Experiences (NDEs) as ‘unscientific’, but I remind those who would like to do as such that NDEs have far more ‘observational evidence’ going for them than Darwinian evolution does:

    Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist’s Evidentiary Standards to the Test – Dr. Michael Egnor – October 15, 2012
    Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE’s are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception — such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,,
    The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,,
    The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn.
    Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....65301.html

    “A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007).”
    Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.

    It is also interesting to note that Even though the atheistic researchers in this following study found evidence directly contradicting what they had expected to find for Near Death Experiences, they were/are so wedded to the materialistic/naturalistic view of reality, the view of “I’ am my body”, that it seems sadly impossible for them to even conceive of the fact that they may be wrong in their materialistic presuppositions, and to even admit to the possibility of the soul, i.e. to the ‘I am a soul’ distinct from my body” view of reality.

    ‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real,’ researcher says – Wed April 10, 2013
    Excerpt: “If you use this questionnaire … if the memory is real, it’s richer, and if the memory is recent, it’s richer,” he said.
    The coma scientists weren’t expecting what the tests revealed.
    “To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors,” Laureys reported.
    The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. “The difference was so vast,” he said with a sense of astonishment.
    Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich “as though it was yesterday,” Laureys said.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/.....periences/

    2 Corinthians 12:2-4
    I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
    And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth), how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

  21. What’s more is that both special relativity and general relativity confirm that there is a higher ‘eternal dimension of time’ for this higher dimension. i.e. Time, as we understand it temporally, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.

    Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    Virtual Particles & Special Relativity of Photons – Michael Strauss PhD particle physics – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4554674/

    And this ‘eternal’ time framework in this higher, invisible, dimension, for both General and Special relativity, has much empirical support going for it:

    Time dilation
    Excerpt: Time dilation: special vs. general theories of relativity:
    In Albert Einstein’s theories of relativity, time dilation in these two circumstances can be summarized:
    1. –In special relativity (or, hypothetically far from all gravitational mass), clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer accelerating, hypothetically, to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop).
    2.–In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field—such as in closer proximity to a planet—are found to be running slower.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

    Time Dilation – experimental confirmation
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....nfirmation

    This following confirmation of time dilation is my favorite since they have actually caught the physical effects of time dilation on film (of note: light travels approx. 1 foot in a nanosecond (billionth of a second) whilst the camera used in the experiment takes a trillion pictures a second):

    Amazing — light filmed at 1,000,000,000,000 Frames/Second! – video (so fast that at 9:00 Minute mark of video the time dilation effect of relativity is caught on film)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_9vd4HWlVA

    It is also interesting to point out that this higher dimensional ‘eternal’ framework for time at the speed of light is also a common feature that is mentioned in many Near Death Experience testimonies:

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544

    ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’
    Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ -
    Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE testimony

    ‘Time dilation’, i.e. eternity, as was shown is confirmed by many lines of scientific evidence, but basically the simplest way to understand this ‘eternal framework’ for light, and Einstein’s enigmatic statement “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity” is to realize that this higher dimensional, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ (i.e. from our perspective light ‘moves’) yet it is also shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. This ‘counter-intuitive’ paradox is only possible for light if the ‘temporal time’ for 3-dimensional mass is of a lower dimensional value of time than it is for light. Temporal time for mass must be a ‘lower dimensional value of time’ than it is for light in order for time dilation to even be possible for something traveling the speed of light
    Yet, even though light is shown to have this higher dimensional ‘eternal’ attribute, for us to ‘hypothetically’ travel at the speed of light will still only get us to first base as far as trying to coherently explain the instantaneous actions of quantum entanglement, and/or quantum teleportation in the universe.

    Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182

    Science vs God: Bryan Enderle at TEDxUCDavis – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn7YQOzNuSc

    i.e. As the preceding videos slightly reveal, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be, because of time dilation, instantaneous travel for the person traveling at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for the ‘hypothetical’ observer at the speed of light, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of, this ‘timeless’ travel is still not completely instantaneous and transcendent of our temporal framework of time as quantum entanglement is now shown to be.

    Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012)
    Excerpt: ,,,The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,,
    “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,,
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....142217.htm

  22. i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference for time, is still not completely transcendent of our temporal time framework since light appears to take time to travel from our temporal perspective. Yet, in the quantum entanglement, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in our lower temporal framework, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in the ‘eternal’ speed of light framework/dimension. That is to say, the instantaneous travel (if travel is a proper word) of quantum information/entanglemnt is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just our present temporal framework or the ‘eternal’ speed of light framework. Quantum information ‘travel’ is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us in this temporal framework. Thus ‘quantum information/entanglement’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we now have examined (many of which I have not specifically listed here); transcendent, eternal, and ‘infinite’, quantum information is indeed real and resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can possibly exist for reality (as far as we can tell from our empirical evidence).

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane Kramarik – Child Prodigy – artist

    supplemental notes:

    Bohemian Gravity – Rob Sheldon – September 19, 2013
    Excerpt: Quanta magazine carried an article about a hypergeometric object that is as much better than Feynman diagrams as Feynman was better than Heisenberg’s S-matrices. But the discoverers are candid about it,
    “The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity. “Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things,” said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. “Both are suspect.””
    What are these suspect principles? None other than two of the founding principles of materialism–that there do not exist “spooky-action-at-a-distance” forces, and that material causes are the only ones in the universe.,,,
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....n-gravity/

    An Interview with David Berlinski – Jonathan Witt
    Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time ….
    Interviewer:… Come again(?) …
    Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects.
    http://tofspot.blogspot.com/20.....-here.html

    It is also interesting to note that ‘higher dimensional’ mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated;

    The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss and Riemann – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/

    The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960
    Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space,
    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc.....igner.html

    Moreover, ‘bottom up’ materialists/atheists cannot give a coherent explanation for the overall spherical structure, and ‘flatness’ of the universe:

    “If you have no God, then you have no design plan for the universe. You have no prexisting structure to the universe.,, As the ancient Greeks held, like Democritus and others, the universe is flux. It’s just matter in motion. Now on that basis all you are confronted with is innumerable brute facts that are unrelated pieces of data. They have no meaningful connection to each other because there is no overall structure. There’s no design plan. It’s like my kids do ‘join the dots’ puzzles. It’s just dots, but when you join the dots there is a structure, and a picture emerges. Well, the atheists is without that (final picture). There is no preestablished pattern (to connect the facts given atheism).”
    Defending the Christian Faith – Pastor Joe Boot – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqE5_ZOAnKo

    Proverbs 8:26-27
    While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

    The Known Universe by AMNH – video – (please note the ‘centrality’ of the Earth in the ‘sphere’ of the CMBR of the universe in the video)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U

    Planck’s view of the Universe – Oct. 18, 2013 – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn0FgOwyu0w

    Moreover, The curvature of the space time of the universe is ‘flat’ to at least 1 in 10^15 places of accuracy
    http://books.google.com/books?.....38;f=false

    Job 38:4-5
    “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
    Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?

    Verse and Music:

    Romans 1:20
    “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

    Kari Jobe – Revelation Song –
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FObjd5wrgZ8

  23. Lincoln Phipps:

    the very old fossil records are calibrated from geology …

    And who calibrated geology?

    The problem copmes back to the age of the earth and that cannot be determined until we know HOW the Earth was formed.

  24. Lincoln Phipps:
    How the age of rocks is determined is irrelevant to my comment that the molecular clock is useless circular reasoning.

  25. Joe,

    how do you think the Earth formed (and meteorites and the moon) ?

  26. Lincoln Phipps, since you were just shown that we live in a Theistic universe (posts 14 thru 22), why in blue blazes do you pretend that anything in the universe, including the Earth, formed by unguided processes?

  27. Of note:

    To clearly illustrate the stunning, incomprehensible, degree of fine-tuning we are dealing with in the universe, Dr. Ross has used the illustration of adding or subtracting a single dime’s worth of mass in the observable universe, during the Big Bang, would have been enough of a change in the mass density of the universe to make life impossible in this universe. This word picture he uses, with the dime, helps to demonstrate a number used to quantify that fine-tuning of mass for the universe, namely 1 part in 10^60 for mass density. Compared to the total mass of the observable universe, 1 part in 10^60 works out to about a tenth part of a dime, if not smaller.

    Where Is the Cosmic Density Fine-Tuning? – Hugh Ross
    http://www.reasons.org/where-c.....ine-tuning

    Actually, 1 in 10 to the 60th for the fine-tuning of the mass density for the universe may be equal to just 1 grain of sand instead of a tenth of a dime!

    Sand is made up of Silica this has the formula SiO2
    silicon weighs 28 atomic units
    Oxygen weighs 16 atomic units
    so each SiO2 weighs 60 atomic units

    there are 6.023 x 10^23 atomic units in a gram. that is 6 with 23 zeros after it.

    so there would be 6.023 x 10^23 / 60 = 1x 10^22 SiO2s in a gram
    so
    3 x 10^22 atoms in a gram

    Say a grain of sand is 1mm across it has a volume of 0.001cm3
    1cm3 of sand weighs about 2.6g

    so a grain of sand will
    weigh 0.0026g

    so to find the number of atoms in a grain of sand we multiply the number of atoms per gram by the number of grams:

    3 x 10^22 x 0.0026g = 7.8 x 10^19 atoms = 1 grain of sand
    http://www.thenakedscientists......topic=6447

    thus

    10^79 – atoms in the universe
    minus
    10^60 – fine tuning of mass density
    equals
    10^19 – or equals one grain of sand
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-394591

    To fully appreciate just how amazing it is the find that the mass density of the universe is balanced to approximately one grain of sand, it is good to ponder just how huge the universe is:

    The Biggest Stars in the Universe – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LUQVzerseI

    As well it turns out even the immense size of the universe is necessary for life:

    Does the Universe exist for a purpose? The size of the Universe – Overview of the math – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onvUdyvkXvQ

    Evidence for Belief in God – Rich Deem
    Excerpt: Isn’t the immense size of the universe evidence that humans are really insignificant, contradicting the idea that a God concerned with humanity created the universe? It turns out that the universe could not have been much smaller than it is in order for nuclear fusion to have occurred during the first 3 minutes after the Big Bang. Without this brief period of nucleosynthesis, the early universe would have consisted entirely of hydrogen. Likewise, the universe could not have been much larger than it is, or life would not have been possible. If the universe were just one part in 10^59 larger, the universe would have collapsed before life was possible. Since there are only 10^80 baryons in the universe, this means that an addition of just 10^21 baryons (about the mass of a grain of sand) would have made life impossible. The universe is exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all.
    http://www.godandscience.org/a.....ntro2.html

    God created the entire universe for us – February 2012
    Excerpt: If the sun were represented by the period at the end of this sentence, our galaxy would be the size of the continental United States.,,, Why didn’t God create our modest solar system and a few stars and let it go at that? Because size matters.
    If the universe weren’t as large as it is fusion would be inefficient. As a result, the universe would produce hydrogen, or hydrogen plus a small amount of helium. That means carbon and oxygen — both essential for life — would be missing.
    http://www.dailypilot.com/news.....2339.story

    Here is a video of Astrophysicist Hugh Ross explaining the anthropic cosmological principle behind the immense size of the universe as well as behind the ancient age of the universe:

    We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History – Hugh Ross – video
    http://vimeo.com/31940671

  28. corrected link:

    The Biggest Stars in the Universe – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCmJmTYS7Zw

  29. bornagain77,

    you’re ranting bornagain77 and it’s amusing to watch as it gives me a current checklist of what woo is being re-packaged to sell Jesus and whatever else turns people on. You might claim that I am ignorant of philosophy but as I’m not the one running on the hamster wheel marked “metaphysical”, your claim is a moot point.

    “materialism” is your strawman. A better term I prefer to use is physicalism but in the end we’re discussing what is naturalism not what supervenes on what. I tell you that when I say “the quantum scale is part of nature too”

    I also foretell your reply when I say that you’ll try and claim “materialism is false”

    But I don’t say materialism is true – I use methodological naturalism. It is an assumption of naturalism and at best I use physicalism where I am discussing supervenience.

    It’s YOU that goes on about materialism ! Pages and pages of quantum mechanics and special relativity, all of which are reasonably part of nature and so reasonably naturalism but you are fixed on “materialism”.

    Somehow after you have poked the strawman of “materialism” you then throw in the wild claims of ‘therefore God’ even though your references are not interested in that conclusion.

  30. Mr. Phipps you claim:

    ‘But I don’t say materialism is true’

    So why do you defend it as if it were when discussing neo-Darwinism?

    So are you a non-reductive materialist in regards to neo-Darwinism? If so please elaborate. We had a PhD in philosophy named KantianNaturalist who tried to invoke non-reductive materialism, physicalism/naturalism, or whatever, but it turned out that he had less of a claim to empirical evidence than neo_Darwinists (i.e. reductive materialists) do! If you want to defend that angle for atheism I will be more than willing to show you your shortcomings, with empirical evidence, once again. I seriously want you, and everyone else, to see how utterly bankrupt your worldview is of any supporting evidence.,, Not to be mean to you or anything like that, it is just fascinating for me to see how irrational atheists can be when forced to face brute hard facts.

  31. Lincoln Phipps-

    No one knows how the earth was formed. That is the point. Until you know HOW you cannot tell WHEN.

  32. Lincoln Phipps, as to your backing away from reductive materialism and doubling down on the broader term of naturalism,,

    “I use methodological naturalism. It is an assumption of naturalism,,,”

    It might interest you to know, Mr. Phipps, that Alvin Plantinga has now shown that assuming naturalism as the driving force of Darwinian evolution is an epistemologically self-defeating assumption:

    Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism by Alvin Plantinga – video
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL80CAECC36901BCEE

    “Refuting Naturalism by Citing our own Consciousness” Dr. Alvin Plantinga
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r34AIo-xBh8

    Content and Natural Selection – Alvin Plantinga – 2011
    http://www.andrewmbailey.com/a.....ection.pdf

    Scientific Peer Review is in Trouble: From Medical Science to Darwinism – Mike Keas – October 10, 2012
    Excerpt: Survival is all that matters on evolutionary naturalism. Our evolving brains are more likely to give us useful fictions that promote survival rather than the truth about reality. Thus evolutionary naturalism undermines all rationality (including confidence in science itself). Renown philosopher Alvin Plantinga has argued against naturalism in this way (summary of that argument is linked on the site:).
    Or, if your short on time and patience to grasp Plantinga’s nuanced argument, see if you can digest this thought from evolutionary cognitive psychologist Steve Pinker, who baldly states:
    “Our brains are shaped for fitness, not for truth; sometimes the truth is adaptive, sometimes it is not.”
    Steven Pinker, evolutionary cognitive psychologist, How the Mind Works (W.W. Norton, 1997), p. 305.
    http://blogs.christianpost.com.....ism-12421/

    This epistemological failure inherent within naturalism (and evolution) led Plantinga to remark:

    “Modern science was conceived, and born, and flourished in the matrix of Christian theism. Only liberal doses of self-deception and double-think, I believe, will permit it to flourish in the context of Darwinian naturalism.”
    ~ Alvin Plantinga

    and

    Philosopher Sticks Up for God
    Excerpt: Theism, with its vision of an orderly universe superintended by a God who created rational-minded creatures in his own image, “is vastly more hospitable to science than naturalism,” with its random process of natural selection, he (Plantinga) writes. “Indeed, it is theism, not naturalism, that deserves to be called ‘the scientific worldview.’”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12.....wanted=all

    Of note: Plantinga’s argument is an expansion on CS Lewis’s argument from reason:

    “One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.”
    —C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason)

    Physicalism and Reason – May 2013
    Summary: So we find ourselves affirming two contradictory propositions:
    1. Everything is governed by cause-and-effect.
    2. Our brains can process and be changed by ground-consequent logical relationships.
    To achieve consistency, we must either deny that everything is governed by cause-and-effect, and open our worldviews to something beyond physicalism, or we must deny that our brains are influenced by ground-consequence reasoning, and abandon the idea that we are rational creatures.
    Ask yourself: are humans like falling dominoes, entirely subject to natural law, or may we stand up and walk in the direction that reason shows us?
    http://www.reasonsforgod.org/2.....nd-reason/

    Do the New Atheists Own the Market on Reason? – On the terms of the New Atheists, the very concept of rationality becomes nonsensical – By R. Scott Smith, May 03, 2012
    Excerpt: If atheistic evolution by NS were true, we’d be in a beginningless series of interpretations, without any knowledge. Yet, we do know many things. So, naturalism & atheistic evolution by NS are false — non-physical essences exist. But, what’s their best explanation? Being non-physical, it can’t be evolution by NS. Plus, we use our experiences, form concepts and beliefs, and even modify or reject them. Yet, if we’re just physical beings, how could we interact with and use these non-physical things? Perhaps we have non-physical souls too. In all, it seems likely the best explanation for these non-physical things is that there exists a Creator after all.
    http://www.patheos.com/Evangel.....#038;max=1

    The Atheist’s Guide to Intellectual Suicide – James N. Anderson PhD. – video
    https://vimeo.com/60437420

    Also of note, assuming naturalism for the origin of the universe is also epistemologically self-defeating:

    BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010
    Excerpt: What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse – where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause – produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com.....arguments/

  33. Lincoln Phipps wanted to know

    what part of “These other rocks are calibrated from radiometric dating data.” do you have problems understanding ?

    It’s the part where the radiometric dating is calibrated (i.e. adjusted) to conform with the results expected from geological interpretations of indicator fossils. This means that the radiometric dating can always be made to miraculously agree with expected results.

    Whatever it this process might be called, it’s certainly not science.

    I’m not knocking radiometric dating—it would be great if we could identify and use a more reliable dating method—but the methods used have been compromised to the point where a reasonable person would question their utility.

    -Q

  34. Querius,

    you are claiming that there is a fraud that has gone on for many decades across all the world and across hundreds of thousands of researchers.

    You are also claiming that the fraud is with both states, private companies and public and private universities and especially with oil and resource exploration companies.

    In other words you are basically talking crap. Decades of science says one thing but a few YEC who don’t actually do any science think it’s another thing.

  35. Lincoln- Your position doesn’t have any science behind it. So stop with your bloviations about YECs

  36. Querius,

    what you have posted is self-defeating because all you have posted applies to all others too.

    So how do we extract sense from the noise ? Bayes is one approach. If numerous results from decades of work from different fields of science papers and engineering (resources exploration) all point to certain ages then the odd ones out are the people who make the contrary claims.

    As the contrary claims are driven by dogma such as the literal reading of a religious book or through criticism then what’s left standing is an Old Earth.

  37. Lincoln,

    My previous post said “This has nothing to do with YECs.” What part of that didn’t you understand?

    -Q

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