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Atheism and the Evolution Requirement

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One of the major difficulties I have as someone with one foot planted in the theistic evolution camp is discussing the general concept of evolution or Darwinism.

A large part of the problem is with the simple definition of the words – where one person takes Darwinism to mean “a process totally unguided and unforeseen by God in anyway”, another means “a process of variation and selection, where both variation and selected may be or (with some TEs) in fact were ultimately or proximately guided and foreseen by God”, still another means “a process of variation and selection, where the ultimate causes of variation and selection are not considered because that’s outside of science” to otherwise, etc. Navigating this is a headache, and one that constantly reappears.

But another conceptual problem is this: The claim that atheism and evolution are utterly intertwined. Now, this comes in a few forms. Sometimes the claim is that if evolution is true – let’s say, if it’s true that the first man had biological precursors – then theism must be false. More popular is the claim that theism and evolution can both be true, but theism can also withstand the falsity of evolution. Atheism, on the other hand, has a dire link to evolution: If atheism is true, then evolution must be true.

This latter view seems popular, both in and out of the ID tent. And it’s a view I deeply disagree with. My reasons follow below the cut.

Before I start in on this, I want to stress that there’s a related, more obvious claim that I’m not denying: That evolution, particularly Darwinism, is used to support atheism, and used to attack certain particular religious claims (that humanity and all life was created fully formed is the obvious example.) Likewise, I’m not denying that atheists make appeals to evolution to support their atheism, or that some would even agree that if atheism is true then evolution must be true. I think they’re as wrong as the theists who make this claim.

What I deny is this: That the assumed truth of atheism makes evolution logically necessary. All you need is a single example of a logically possible world where both atheism is true and evolution is false, and the logical necessity disappears. Here’s a sample of some possibilities.

* Humanity and all living things have been reproducing, producing only like kinds, unto eternity.
* The existence of at least humanity and possibly all other life is simply a brute fact: At some point in the finite or infinite past, humanity and/or life showed up without cause or explanation. They just are.
* Humanity and/or other life popped into existence in a Boltzmann Brain style scenario – one day they just appeared, sans precursors, by utter fortuity.
* Humanity and/or other life was directly caused to exist by a combination of laws and states-of-affairs that are/were themselves brute and inexplicable, yet which for no reason made the sudden appearance of these organisms inevitable.

This list could be expanded in numerous ways: Make the laws of nature subject to inexplicable change if you want. Increase the length of the brute fact chain. Fill the natural world with suspiciously convenient, detailed, life- or human-spawning processes that create directly rather than rely on selection and variation. All this and more are logically compatible with the truth of atheism. And it only takes one compatibility to show that no, evolution and atheism aren’t quite linked that way.

Now, as I said previously, this doesn’t mean that atheists don’t regularly present evolution as some kind of testament to the truth of atheism – but that’s deeply problematic. First, insofar as it relies on the claim that evolution must be true on atheism, it’s open to the same counter-examples I just provided. Second, I’d argue that the rhetorical strengths atheists are often granted by evolution typically derive most of their strength from their opposition to very narrow, particular religious claims – if a theist adheres to an account of origins such that organisms were made whole and without precursors, then an evolutionary account of such organisms is a challenge. But if a theist believes that God could have or did use evolutionary processes in creation, the bulk of the force of the evolutionary argument – in and of itself – dissipates. Insofar as this is true, evolution doesn’t function as an evidence for atheism as much as evidence against some particular claim of one religious view – but theism itself, and religion broadly, does not require the falsity of evolution anyway.

But one problem I have with this misunderstanding is this: It gives credit where credit simply isn’t due.

Comments
I am, but I'm not interested in anything you have to say ;)Mung
June 1, 2011
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Is anyone still reading this post? If so, I have some comments to make. If not, I'll save them. :-)tgpeeler
May 31, 2011
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But another conceptual problem is this: The claim that atheism and evolution are utterly intertwined.
If nothing at all existed, would atheism be a rational positon? What must be true (or false) for one to even consider the proposition, "there is no god"? What must be true (or false) for one to even consider whether the proposition "there is no god," is either true or false? If atheism is inherently irrational, can it be true that anything at all is logically entailed by atheism? I think not.Mung
May 26, 2011
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Atheists believe in the absence of God, theists do in the opposite. And everyone will face the consequences of their faith in the end of time.
Where does the idea come from, that there will come a time When Time Shall Be No More? Is it biblical?Mung
May 26, 2011
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A source can create only if it possesses the flexibility, imagination, and power of will to decide whether to create or not create. Also, physical laws, like everything else, require an explanation. --nullasalus: "I’d agree. But here’s a great example: I have, and I’m positive you have, run into atheists who will disagree there. Many will dive for the brute fact, the inexplicable, in a heartbeat. For the laws, for the universe, for the Big Bang – for whatever they have to." The point, though, is not whether they disagree but rather if their disagreement is rational. The argument for a personal, unchanging, eternal, immaterial first cause is unassailable. Suppose person A walks into a room with person B and both of them notice a red ball on the kitchen table. A: Look there is a red ball on the table. I wonder how it got there. B: What are you wondering about? Obviously, someone put it there. A: I disagree B: You may disagree all you like, but your disagreement is not rational. Now, blow the ball up the size of a house, a city, a planet, a universe. Has the argument changed? No, only the size of the ball. From a public relations standpoint, it may count for something if atheists try to dispute the point, but from a logical perspective, it doesn't matter a whit. Whenever atheism confronts reason; atheism will lose.StephenB
May 26, 2011
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---ilion: "And, one of the things logically entailed by the assertion that there is no Creator-God is Darwinism, or something indistinguishable from it." Here, I think you have successfully bridged the gap between what nullasalus was saying and what I was saying. He says that what atheists have come up with [in some cases] qualifies as a meaningful alternative to and is significantly different from, matter to mind Darwinism. I say that even it is different, it isn't different enough to count for much. [As in the proposition that some inexplicable Taoist first "principle" can serve in the role as Creator (How is that so different from some inexplicable principle called "spontaneous generation" or "emergence" playing the role of Creator?)]. In every case, no real explanation has been given and reason has been abandoned. Also, as Timaeus has pointed out, the problem of origins must, at some point, be faced, even if means explaining the origin of little green men depositing their seeds. Once that reality if confronted, some evolutionary oriented solution will be the result.StephenB
May 26, 2011
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I do not agree with the Author because scientifically we cannot deny logically coherent reasoning originating in ANY system of axioms. We simply have no power to deny this by means of science alone. All intellectual exercises to do with "imaginary worlds" are scientifically nonsensical and futile. On the contrary, what the Author is talking about is a matter of Faith. Atheists believe in the absence of God, theists do in the opposite. And everyone will face the consequences of their faith in the end of time.Eugene S
May 26, 2011
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nullasalus: I agree with you that the atheist, driven by prior religious commitments, will wiggle and squirm, in order to avoid inferring divine design, but he has an insurmountable problem. For example, Crick can postulate an alien rather than an indigenous origin for life, and thus deny any terrestrial chemical evolutionary scenario. But then, where did the alien seeds come from? Some life-form must have produced them, and where did that life-form come from? Eventually -- if the universe is not eternal, and I assume that Crick accepted the Big Bang and a finite age of the universe -- Crick must come back to a first set of alien seeds, which themselves arose through blind chemical evolution on some planet or other. So Crick must then say that conditions were right on some planet *other* than Earth for such a process. But then, if he grants that, there is only a difference in detail, not a difference in principle, in believing that it could have happened on earth. So Crick would be desperately dodging the bullet. Ultimately, to deny evolution, he would be faced with one of my three choices, two of which fly in the face of modern scientific consensus, and one of which abdicates scientific explanation altogether. So I'd say that, while Crick could be a non-evolutionist regarding the indigenous origin of earth life, he couldn't ultimately be a non-evolutionist in the absolute sense. The bottom line is that if you reject the existence of any deities or spirit-beings, if you believe that matter and energy account for all that exists, then origins must be explained in terms of unintelligent rearrangements of matter an energy, i.e., naturalistically. So either you opt for spontaneous generation (contrary to all evidence) or you have to derive later species from earlier species, and the earliest species ultimately from non-living chemicals. An atheist, if he accepts a universe finite in time and space, has little choice but to adopt some sort of naturalistic evolutionary scenario for origins. And indeed, insofar as atheists have speculated on origins, they've come up with variations on these two themes, spontaneous generation (usually couched in terms of lucky collisions of atoms that happen to form something useful), or various versions of evolutionary theory. Can you think of an atheist who has tried to explain origins (in terms of what passed for the natural science of his day) who hasn't relied on (a) atoms coming together into something new and useful by sheer dumb luck; (b) a gradual evolutionary process of one sort or another? T.Timaeus
May 26, 2011
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Darwin was not Darwinist and would have been ostracised by the likes of Dawkins for not being a true scientist, had he been alive today.Eugene S
May 26, 2011
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Timaeus, Thanks for your reply. I want to stress something here. I agree with most of what you say. But your points 1, 2 and 3 are, I think it's fair to say, contingent on the current climate, the current state of scientific knowledge, current cultural forces. This I grant, and I granted it in the OP as well - that's what I alluded to when I spoke of very heavy intellectual, political and emotional investment. But, consider this. Let's say a prominent biologist tomorrow decides that there's no way natural, unguided forces could account for the origin of life on earth. He investigates the matter, decides it's hopeless. Will he sacrifice his atheism? Well, we have an example of that in Francis Crick. He did no such thing - he went for Directed Panspermia. Likewise for the Big Bang - that time had an apparent temporal beginning hasn't stood in tension with many atheist's atheism, even though I'd bet most would have guessed that it would prior to the theory's rise to prominence. (Now, you can come up with an example here and there of an atheist who found himself limping towards theism due to this or that discovery - Hoyle's one. But there's also numerous examples of atheists who stood their ground and just interpreted the data in some new imagined atheistic way.) Another way of thinking about this is: An atheist can stay resilient in the face of all manner of scientific data, all kinds of broadly logical possible worlds, even ones where evolution by natural selection flat out doesn't take place. As such, it's misleading to suggest (and I think it's often suggested) that, logically speaking, atheism requires the truth of evolution - and what do you know, of all the possible universes we live in, we live in the one where the only option for the atheist is one which many scientists claim is the explanation. It's a little - but not exactly - like saying, 'Look at this, we live in a universe where time began with a Big Bang. Just as would be necessary given atheism!', as if a past-eternal universe were incompatible with the belief.nullasalus
May 26, 2011
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nullasalus: An interesting post. I'm inclined to agree at least partly with Barry and StephenB. If you are an atheist, meaning you believe in no gods at all -- no polytheism, not monotheism, no pantheism, no nature-sprits, no deities period -- you have to face the question of origins. Either you deny that there were any origins, i.e., you go along with Aristotle and say that the world is eternal, and so there were always men, anteaters, bees, roses, etc., or you accept the apparent conclusions of modern science that the universe (at least, the one we live in now) had a definite origin in time, as did the earth, as did life on earth, as did man, etc. If you accept that there was a time when man was not, and earlier when mammals were not, and earlier when life was not, then you have to explain the origin of these things. Why did they at one time not exist, and then start existing? Broadly speaking there seem to be two possibilities; either life, and species, can come into being abruptly, through accidents or unknown natural processes; or life, and species, came into being gradually, through a sort of accumulation of properties from previous concatenations of matter or life. So it seems to me that an atheist has to posit either a form of spontaneous generation (which was at one time a scientifically respectable position, at least for lower animals, though it's now quite out of fashion), or some sort of evolutionary scheme. Now, to come back to your point: is evolution *logically* necessary for an atheist? No, not strictly logically necessary. The atheist can choose to say "No Comment" regarding origins; or he can say that the current world is eternal and therefore origins are not a problem; or he can say that life or various species "popped up" due to unknown biochemical or geological forces. He doesn't *have* to be an evolutionist. But in practical terms: 1 -- The price of saying "No Comment" is high; it makes atheists look either evasive, or very lacking in the human virtue of curiosity; it doesn't look good on the atheists; this may be why so few atheists take this route: 2 -- The price of saying that the world is eternal is that the atheist must show the falsity of all the main conclusions of all the historical sciences (cosmology, geology, evolutionary biology); and not only is this a huge order of business, it is precisely *not* the tactic that modern atheists take. They generally warmly embrace the conclusions of the historical sciences. And even among the few pure Aristotelians left alive, surviving in dusty old philosophy departments somewhere, do any of them seriously contend that man has been around forever? 3 -- The price of defending spontaneous generation is higher than any respectable atheist is willing to pay. Sure, some of them might go for the freak, spontaneous generation of the first life; but then how do you get to man? Without evolution, you have to have an endless chain of these spontaneous generations. And there is no empirical evidence that whole new species could pop up without antecedents. Such a view would be laughed out of the scientific community. And again, no atheist holds it. So the only practical position for an atheist is some form of evolutionism. It doesn't have to be Darwinian; it could be Lamarckian, it could some sort of necessitarian front-loaded scheme (without any God to do the initial front-loading, which was just a lucky break of the primeval oceans or of the Big Bang). But it has to be evolutionary -- the later must derived by physical descent from the earlier. So I think that atheists, at least, those who wish to be thought of as scientifically up-to-date (and who therefore must reject the eternity of the world and spontaneous generation), must be evolutionists. Of course, the converse is not true. One does not have to be an atheist to be an evolutionist. But you have already conceded that, so I have no disagreement on that point. T.Timaeus
May 26, 2011
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StephenB @ 53 "No doubt there are some who may put their imagination to work and posit circumstances in which the universe is not necessarily a rational place at all, leaving open the possibility that laws, or at least the behavior that we characterize as laws, could change their nature in mid flight and become another kind of thing–or that things could just pop into existence without a cause ..." As to the main thrust of post #53, that's old hat by now. The God-haters do, indeed, assert that anything at all may happen at any time and for no reason at all -- they do, indeed, assert nothing has a nature, and that true mat become false and false true ... well, except that God be; they're still adamant on that one. Here, I discuss just one example of this common phenomenon.Ilion
May 25, 2011
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StephenB, I don’t think it should be de-emphasized on the grounds that we can find exceptions to it. I don't want to de-emphasize it. That's why I immediately copped to the, for lack of a better way to put it, state of the game right now with regards to atheists and evolution. I just worry about what I see is a tremendous exaggeration on that front, and some fundamental misconceptions. Again, I point at the Big Bang as an example. What was considered anathema to atheism previously (a universe with a temporal beginning) was incorporated in a ridiculously short amount of time - would that count as a trend? I maintain that if tomorrow evolution were somehow flatly proved untrue, a similar shrugging off could and would occur. A source can create only if it possesses the flexibility, imagination, and power of will to decide whether to create or not create. Also, physical laws, like everything else, require an explanation. I'd agree. But here's a great example: I have, and I'm positive you have, run into atheists who will disagree there. Many will dive for the brute fact, the inexplicable, in a heartbeat. For the laws, for the universe, for the Big Bang - for whatever they have to. Thus, rational discussions, which seek to distinguish the possible from the impossible, would serve no purpose, and there would be no reason to discuss anything with anyone. C'mon, now. If nothing else, it can be kind of funny. Didn't you like Alice in Wonderland? Pardon the joking. Either way, hopefully you get where I'm coming from here, even if you may not fully agree.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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StephenB: "I think the problem is that I actually misread your argument because, as you say, it is a sociological fact that some atheists, though in the minority, have rejected evolution in the name of a higher minded atheism. So you are right about that. A fact is a fact." I am going to make a point that very few seem ever to grasp -- it doesn't matter in the least what ad hoc mish-mash of propositions this or that so-called atheist (*) deigns to advocate as being 'atheism.' What matters is rightly seeing which propositions do or do not logically follow from the assertion that God is not. And, one of the things logically entailed by the assertion that there is no Creator-God is Darwinism, or something indistinguishable from it. Just as Christianity entails a 'this' but not 'that,' so ,too, does atheism entail a 'this' but not 'that.' It changes reality not a whit that some self-proclaimed Christians assert some 'that' or other and try to call it Christianity. It changes reality not a whit that some self-proclaimed atheists assert some 'that' or other and try to call it atheism. (*) for, in truth, while there are millions of God-haters in the world, there are precious few actual atheistsIlion
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: Really, you played your hand there by rolling in with “Jesus was a creationist!” immediately. Not interested, not in this thread. lol. Did you seriously think I was trying to hide an agenda by asking you to clarify what religions qualified for inclusion in theistic evolution? After I had mistakenly presumed the usual suspect, you find it disingenuous I should ask what you did mean? No, it’s not. It is, for my purposes, “juxtaposed against theism”. Not specific religious beliefs. Oh please. Your words stand as-is and they plainly state "if a theist adheres to an account of origins" and "if a theist believes that God could have or did use evolutionary processes in creation", and you find it suspect someone should ask what theists you meant if not Judeo-Christian thesists? Words actually do have precise meanings. They are not interchangable. “Well now you have to talk about what religions can accept evolution!” No, I simply asked which religions you meant to include in "theistic evolution" if not Judeo-Christian. No more no less. But this is where I came in to this movie, so I'm done. In your crazy, combox-warrior world, I’m sure it is [plainly inconsistent]. Your coherence is exceeded only by your civility.Charles
May 25, 2011
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---nullasalus: "But more than that, I’m surprised you of all people would claim that the atheist universe – whatever the truth of evolution – is a rational one, at least if I’m reading you right." I think the problem is that I actually misread your argument because, as you say, it is a sociological fact that some atheists, though in the minority, have rejected evolution in the name of a higher minded atheism. So you are right about that. A fact is a fact. On the subject of mind arising from matter or matter arising from mind, those are still the ruling paradigms but, again, as you say, a trend does not constitute a logical necessity. On the other hand, a consistent trend is a consistent trend. I don't think it should be de-emphasized on the grounds that we can find exceptions to it. I am not suggesting that atheists are rational (we know that I would never argue that way) but rather that their matter-to-mind-emergence syndrome, illogical though it is, is no less illogical than one of their alternative explanations, namely the notion that a cosmic "law" can "create" anything. (Translate that as Taoism). Laws do not have the flexibility to create; they just do what they do over and over again. A source can create only if it possesses the flexibility, imagination, and power of will to decide whether to create or not create. Also, physical laws, like everything else, require an explanation. Wherever we find a law, we must acknowledge a lawgiver. Sometimes the most important points get missed because we hear them so often that they no longer impress us. Nor can we argue that a law could be a part of the universe that it is alleged to be governing. If the law was, indeed, part of the universe, it, too, would be changing right along with the universe’s other parts, which means that it would no longer be a law. To be sure, that which we call a law may influence the way things change, but it must be separate from and outside them, and, as I already indicated, a law lacks the potential to create anything. No doubt there are some who may put their imagination to work and posit circumstances in which the universe is not necessarily a rational place at all, leaving open the possibility that laws, or at least the behavior that we characterize as laws, could change their nature in mid flight and become another kind of thing--or that things could just pop into existence without a cause --or that the ordered nature of the universe’s behavior would not correspond to our logically and mathematically ordered understanding of it. But once we grant such assumptions, all things become possible in principle. Thus, rational discussions, which seek to distinguish the possible from the impossible, would serve no purpose, and there would be no reason to discuss anything with anyone.StephenB
May 25, 2011
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Charles, But when your claim presumes the truth of evolution, it is juxtaposed against not theism again, but rather against specific theist beliefs about how God originated or created. No, it's not. It is, for my purposes, "juxtaposed against theism". Not specific religious beliefs. In the portion you quote of me, my point was simply that evolution was compatible with the existence of God or gods in and of itself - and granted that, if someone's belief about God requires them to reject evolution, then evolution is a threat. By the same token, if their belief doesn't require that, it is no threat. Pretty basic. Turning that into "Well now you have to talk about what religions can accept evolution!" is just a great topic - but not this one. Really, you played your hand there by rolling in with "Jesus was a creationist!" immediately. Not interested, not in this thread. But apparently that doesn't matter to you, so just keep up the little game if you want. I'm about ready to just ignore it. But declining to explain in what theistic systems (religions) you generally find theists believing accounts of origin or creation vs evolution while simultaneously relying implicitly on such religions when it suits your claim is plainly inconsistent, to be charitable. In your crazy, combox-warrior world, I'm sure it is. One more time: Deal with it. StephenB, atheism is committed to the proposition that mind arose from matter by coincidence. If we are talking about a rational universe, I don’t think a third option is available to us. If you're saying atheists have to be materialists about the mind, that seems flatly false. Chalmers is an agnostic/atheist, and he explicitly rejects materialism. He's not alone in that. Now, how mind arises is a distinct question from evolution, I think it's fair to say. But more than that, I'm surprised you of all people would claim that the atheist universe - whatever the truth of evolution - is a rational one, at least if I'm reading you right. I've seen you in enough discussions about the big bang, the prime mover, etc to have thought your opinion was different than that. How many times have you firsthand witnessed atheists deny causality, or speculate that maybe things stop making sense at the Big Bang, or at the quantum level, etc? Because frankly, I've lost count. As I said previously, what part of atheism requires that the universe be rational? On theism, particularly classical theism, it follows automatically from there being a God who is Himself rational. Unless you consider inexplicable regularities, the rejection of the PSR, brute facts, etc to be reasonable, it seems more likely that on atheism/materialism, the universe (at least in part) not only doesn't have to be reasonable, but it should be expected not to be.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: What I touched on regarding non-atheism in this thread, I limited to mere theism intentionally. ... “But that’s so broad!” you may cry. No, my cry is "But you've been inconsistent!!!". Here are 4 claims intertwining theism and evolution you made in your original post which ostenisbly are up for discussion and not off-topic:
More popular is the claim that theism and evolution can both be true, but theism can also withstand the falsity of evolution. if a theist adheres to an account of origins such that organisms were made whole and without precursors, then an evolutionary account of such organisms is a challenge. But if a theist believes that God could have or did use evolutionary processes in creation, the bulk of the force of the evolutionary argument – in and of itself – dissipates. but theism itself, and religion broadly, does not require the falsity of evolution anyway
When your claim presumes the falsity of evolution, it is juxtaposed against theism itself (the mere belief in God or gods). But when your claim presumes the truth of evolution, it is juxtaposed against not theism again, but rather against specific theist beliefs about how God originated or created. Having limited yourself to mere theism (simply a belief in God or gods), from where did you extract specific beliefs of origin or creation accounts that are challenged by evolution? And while you may claim to be “sticking to the topic” when declining to be specific about which religions and how their tenets intersect or not with evolution’s tenets, you plainly went off topic in your last 3 conclusory statements above. But declining to explain in what theistic systems (religions) you generally find theists believing accounts of origin or creation vs evolution while simultaneously relying implicitly on such religions when it suits your claim is plainly inconsistent, to be charitable.Charles
May 25, 2011
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I would argue that atheism does, indeed, require some kind of unguided evolutionary scheme to explain the origins of life. Theism is committed to the proposition that matter arose from mind by design; atheism is committed to the proposition that mind arose from matter by coincidence. If we are talking about a rational universe, I don’t think a third option is available to us.StephenB
May 25, 2011
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Mung,
We can, as soon as the mustard seed becomes the smallest seed of all seeds.
Nah, we can do it right now.Clive Hayden
May 25, 2011
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mike1962, yes, let's not tell folks to shut up, or you will be shut up in moderation.Clive Hayden
May 25, 2011
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Charles, It's as simple as this: I'm not interested in discussing the particulars of any religion here. Is evolution compatible with Islam? Hinduism? Deism? Christianity? Judaism? Some other unmentioned theistic religion? Good questions - for another thread, where people can make their case for whichever side of the equation. What I touched on regarding non-atheism in this thread, I limited to mere theism intentionally. "But that's so broad!" you may cry. "Deal with it," I reply.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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mike1962: Null was defining and delimiting his usage of the term. If someone didn’t know what the term “theism” meant, how else would you define it if not “the belief in god or God”? A very reasonable assumption, and nearly the one I made initially, though in the context of "theistic evolution" and the usual UD threads, I assumed the Judeo-Christian God and theism. But I was wrong. Outside of Judeo-Christianity, I was not (and still am not) aware of any "religion" or any "theism" that holds tenets which intersect with evolution's tenets, pro or con. And so I had erroneously presumed Judeo-Christian theism in the context of "theistic evolution". I wrote:
I assume we define “Theist” to exclude Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. since Theistic Evolution has a largely Christian Catholic following, yes?,
But having been corrected that a broader definition was intended, I then asked:
Ok, but what other religions (broadly) have tenets that intersect evolution’s tenets?
and not getting a direct answer I restated my question as:
I’m simply asking what religions specifically (beyond Judeo-Christianity) make what specific assertions about what their diety/theos created or evolved, regardless of whether such assertions are compatibile with current prevailing evolutionary theory. I’m interested firstly in what religions you include more broadly in “Theism” and your criteria for their inclusion.
To which the answer was:
Theism itself is not a religion per se – it’s a belief in God or gods. You’ve already given a few theistic religions (Buddhism is a trickier case), but any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be theistic.
So instead of being told what specific religions had tenets that intersected evolution's in some fashion, the definition given was "any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be theistic". Given then theism defined as simply "belief in God or gods", then a definition that "any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be [of God or gods]" is a tautology and certainly of little help in clarifying what religions or theisms held tenets related (pro or con) to evolution, as I repeatedly asked. To bandy about terminology meaning merely "[of any God or gods] evolution" seems rather hollow. So by the broad context of theism, e.g. Zeus being a god or Mammon being a god, etc., Zeusistic or Mammonistic evolution makes little sense, doesn't it. I further submit if you run thru the pantheon of gods, there is only one context in which "Theistic evolution" makes any sense worth discussing. Yet I'm told only the broader context applies (somehow) in this discussion. So I stand corrected. You’re wasting peoples’ time. Yes. Twould seem so.Charles
May 25, 2011
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OK, Charles, I'm sorry for telling you to shut up :)mike1962
May 25, 2011
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One last comment before I take care of business today. mike1962, Yes, that's pretty much what I was going for, so thanks for stating you can see what I was saying here. Still, I'd request no telling people to shut up, etc. I got snippy with Charles, he got snippy with me, but let's try to keep things polite here. (And that goes for myself as well, I ain't perfect.)nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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Charles: Sincerely, your definition of theism being any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods, makes them the same thing.
It sure makes them same thing with regards to their belief in God. Duh.
That is the problem with tautologies.
*All* definitions of words are tautologies. But you're missing the point. Null was defining and delimiting his usage of the term. If someone didn't know what the term "theism" meant, how else would you define it if not "the belief in god or God"? Shut up Charles. You're wasting peoples' time.mike1962
May 25, 2011
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Just to clarify one thing here. While I do have TE leanings, the purpose of this post isn't to defend TE. It's to critique what I think is a view that's gives far too much to atheism from the outset, more than is warranted. I would think someone could reject TE entirely, yet at the same time appreciate the point I'm making here. (At the same time, I don't expect everyone to agree with me either. But hopefully where I'm coming from at least can be seen.)nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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In the science classes that Jesus took religion wasn’t prohibited. So why can’t we teach ID in science classes today?
We can, as soon as the mustard seed becomes the smallest seed of all seeds.Mung
May 25, 2011
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bevets, I'd agree with Mayr. In fact, put that way, I think the lesson is important: The problem isn't the scientific theory as a scientific theory. The problem is what's plastered onto it above and beyond science - the philosophy, the metaphysics. As for Dawkins, sorry - I have no respect for the man's opinion. And I think the fact that he and other atheists have bristled heavily at Biologos, not exactly the most aggressive TE outfit, is instructive. TE is downright threatening to atheists, unless that TE is so watered down as to be something akin to Ruse's nonsense. I wouldn't trust Dawkins to give me straight talk on young earth creationism either.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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The Darwinian revolution was not merely the replacement of one scientific theory by another, as had been the scientific revolutions in the physical sciences, but rather the replacement of a world view, in which the supernatural was accepted as a normal and relevant explanatory principle, by a new world view in which there was no room for supernatural forces. ~ Ernst Mayr I have a certain niggling sympathy for the creationists, because I think, in a way, the writing is on the wall for the religious view that says it's fully compatible with evolution. I think there's a kind of incompatibility, which the creationists see clearly. ~ Richard Dawkinsbevets
May 25, 2011
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