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	<title>Comments on: Sorry, kids, but you&#8217;re just too stupid</title>
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	<description>Serving The Intelligent Design Community</description>
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		<title>By: Resource Blog: TUESDAY, MAY 24, 2005</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-692</link>
		<dc:creator>Resource Blog: TUESDAY, MAY 24, 2005</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-692</guid>
		<description>[...] (Posted 5/21/05).Science and religion mutually exclusive?, by Dave Mobley (Posted 5/21/05).Sorry, kids, but youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re just too stupid, by William Dembski (Posted 5/21/05).Science unlea [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (Posted 5/21/05).Science and religion mutually exclusive?, by Dave Mobley (Posted 5/21/05).Sorry, kids, but youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re just too stupid, by William Dembski (Posted 5/21/05).Science unlea [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DaveScot</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-555</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveScot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-555</guid>
		<description>Ariel penned: &quot;various forms of ID have survived fatwa after fatwa&quot;

ROFLMAO!

Great phraseology.  Many kudos!


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ariel penned: &#8220;various forms of ID have survived fatwa after fatwa&#8221;</p>
<p>ROFLMAO!</p>
<p>Great phraseology.  Many kudos!</p>
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		<title>By: DonaldM</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-536</link>
		<dc:creator>DonaldM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-536</guid>
		<description>Having recently led a study and discussion group of 16-17 year olds, I can tell you that not only can they grasp what Darwinian evolution is about, they can easily understand the challenge posed by IC systems, like the flagellum.  It took them all of about 15 minutes to see the problem.  The idea that we dare not introduce controversy or the &quot;finer points of evolutionary science&quot; to high school students is ludicrous and insulting.  Perhaps the writer is actually implying the high school biology teachers are inadequate purveyors of accurate scientific information in biology class.  After all isn&#039;t it their job to take complex ideas and make them understandable to their students.  If I were either a teenager or a biology teacher, I&#039;d be highly insulted by this.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having recently led a study and discussion group of 16-17 year olds, I can tell you that not only can they grasp what Darwinian evolution is about, they can easily understand the challenge posed by IC systems, like the flagellum.  It took them all of about 15 minutes to see the problem.  The idea that we dare not introduce controversy or the &#8220;finer points of evolutionary science&#8221; to high school students is ludicrous and insulting.  Perhaps the writer is actually implying the high school biology teachers are inadequate purveyors of accurate scientific information in biology class.  After all isn&#8217;t it their job to take complex ideas and make them understandable to their students.  If I were either a teenager or a biology teacher, I&#8217;d be highly insulted by this.</p>
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		<title>By: ariel</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-466</link>
		<dc:creator>ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 May 2005 20:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-466</guid>
		<description>Minlay, 
I would hold that perhaps your claims to discreditation are premature.  As far as the abstract goes, kids do not need to read highly technical literature to understand the basics of a theory and its problems.  To say that ID as an approach to biology has been discredited also strikes me as hollow.  If by &quot;discredited&quot; we mean, &quot;many scientists have rejected it as a live option,&quot; then fine. However, a small but growing minority are giving it credit, so perhaps it will be recredited, in that sense.  If by &quot;discredited&quot; you mean, &quot;soundly refuted as regards the merits of the case,&quot; then I disagree completely.  It seems to me that undirected Darwinian evolution has been largely refuted (though yet to be rejected or discredited in the first sense), and that the various forms of ID have survived fatwa after fatwa, pronouncments of death made on philosophical/methodological rather than scientific grounds.  So it seems we have a difference of opinion.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Minlay,<br />
I would hold that perhaps your claims to discreditation are premature.  As far as the abstract goes, kids do not need to read highly technical literature to understand the basics of a theory and its problems.  To say that ID as an approach to biology has been discredited also strikes me as hollow.  If by &#8220;discredited&#8221; we mean, &#8220;many scientists have rejected it as a live option,&#8221; then fine. However, a small but growing minority are giving it credit, so perhaps it will be recredited, in that sense.  If by &#8220;discredited&#8221; you mean, &#8220;soundly refuted as regards the merits of the case,&#8221; then I disagree completely.  It seems to me that undirected Darwinian evolution has been largely refuted (though yet to be rejected or discredited in the first sense), and that the various forms of ID have survived fatwa after fatwa, pronouncments of death made on philosophical/methodological rather than scientific grounds.  So it seems we have a difference of opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: nostrowski</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-447</link>
		<dc:creator>nostrowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2005 21:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-447</guid>
		<description>&quot;Any public school science teacher will tell you itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s already a minor miracle if a 16-year-old can accurately ..........pinpoint the Galapagos Islands on an atlas.&quot;.  Maybe this tells us more about public schools than it does about the students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Any public school science teacher will tell you itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s already a minor miracle if a 16-year-old can accurately &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.pinpoint the Galapagos Islands on an atlas.&#8221;.  Maybe this tells us more about public schools than it does about the students.</p>
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		<title>By: minlay</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-441</link>
		<dc:creator>minlay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2005 07:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-441</guid>
		<description>While I agree that arguing the merits of different origins theory would be interesting to a high school student, and might help them learn more than just studying one theory, I think the bigger issue is whether we want to be teaching students arguments that have been discredited within the scientific community.  Personally, I think we&#039;d be doing them a disservice by pretending that those types of arguments were scientifically valid.  Shouldn&#039;t the first and foremost priority for a high school science class be to teach those students the best science available?

I guess that opens up the bigger question, how do we know what the best science is?  I think the only consistently reliable way to know is to examine the primary literature.  And this is the tricky part, because the primarily literature is not very accessible to the lay reader.  While getting &quot;access&quot; to these articles is getting easier and easier, with the internet and the increasing number of public journals, as biology grows it&#039;s getting harder and harder to understand those articles.  If there are any high school students reading this, go to www.nature.com and check out the table of contents to the latest issue of [i]Nature[/i].  Those articles represent the raw, unfiltered, cutting edge of science.  Do you think you could understand any of those articles?  I could probably only understand a few of them per issue.  Since Nature articles aren&#039;t free to the public, you might try looking at the Public Library of Science&#039;s Biology journal, [url=http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-toc&amp;issn=1545-7885&amp;volume=3&amp;issue=5]PLoS Biology[/url].  Those articles are freely available, and on the cutting edge of biological research.  Check out the abstract to this article, from the most recent issue.

[quote][b]Evolutionary Origins of Genomic Repertoires in Bacteria[/b]
Emmanuelle Lerat1, Vincent Daubin2, Howard Ochman2*, Nancy A. Moran1 

[b]Explaining the diversity of gene repertoires has been a major problem in modern evolutionary biology[/b]. In eukaryotes, this diversity is believed to result mainly from gene duplication and loss, but in prokaryotes, lateral gene transfer (LGT) can also contribute substantially to genome contents. To determine the histories of gene inventories, we conducted an exhaustive analysis of gene phylogenies for all gene families in a widely sampled group, the ÃŽÂ³-Proteobacteria. We show that, although these bacterial genomes display striking differences in gene repertoires, most gene families having representatives in several species have congruent histories. Other than the few vast multigene families, gene duplication has contributed relatively little to the contents of these genomes; instead, LGT, over time, provides most of the diversity in genomic repertoires. Most such acquired genes are lost, but the majority of those that persist in genomes are transmitted strictly vertically. Although our analyses are limited to the ÃŽÂ³-Proteobacteria, these results resolve a long-standing paradoxÃ¢â‚¬â€i.e., the ability to make robust phylogenetic inferences in light of substantial LGT.[/quote]

Now look at the problem that the authors are trying to answer (which I&#039;ve boldfaced).  Do you think you could read this article, and understand how their data addresses that issue?  To truly understand this article, you&#039;d not only have to read it, but you&#039;d have to look at a large chunk of the 58 other articles that they cite.  I think that&#039;s a lot to ask of a high school student.  Heck, that&#039;s a lot to ask of a college senior.  So I think it&#039;s a little unfair to claim that the scientific community thinks that high school students are stupid because they don&#039;t understand the primarily literature, which is what&#039;s needed to really understand why these alteratives to evolution have been discredited.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree that arguing the merits of different origins theory would be interesting to a high school student, and might help them learn more than just studying one theory, I think the bigger issue is whether we want to be teaching students arguments that have been discredited within the scientific community.  Personally, I think we&#8217;d be doing them a disservice by pretending that those types of arguments were scientifically valid.  Shouldn&#8217;t the first and foremost priority for a high school science class be to teach those students the best science available?</p>
<p>I guess that opens up the bigger question, how do we know what the best science is?  I think the only consistently reliable way to know is to examine the primary literature.  And this is the tricky part, because the primarily literature is not very accessible to the lay reader.  While getting &#8220;access&#8221; to these articles is getting easier and easier, with the internet and the increasing number of public journals, as biology grows it&#8217;s getting harder and harder to understand those articles.  If there are any high school students reading this, go to <a href="http://www.nature.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com</a> and check out the table of contents to the latest issue of [i]Nature[/i].  Those articles represent the raw, unfiltered, cutting edge of science.  Do you think you could understand any of those articles?  I could probably only understand a few of them per issue.  Since Nature articles aren&#8217;t free to the public, you might try looking at the Public Library of Science&#8217;s Biology journal, [url=http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-toc&amp;issn=1545-7885&amp;volume=3&amp;issue=5]PLoS Biology[/url].  Those articles are freely available, and on the cutting edge of biological research.  Check out the abstract to this article, from the most recent issue.</p>
<p>[quote][b]Evolutionary Origins of Genomic Repertoires in Bacteria[/b]<br />
Emmanuelle Lerat1, Vincent Daubin2, Howard Ochman2*, Nancy A. Moran1 </p>
<p>[b]Explaining the diversity of gene repertoires has been a major problem in modern evolutionary biology[/b]. In eukaryotes, this diversity is believed to result mainly from gene duplication and loss, but in prokaryotes, lateral gene transfer (LGT) can also contribute substantially to genome contents. To determine the histories of gene inventories, we conducted an exhaustive analysis of gene phylogenies for all gene families in a widely sampled group, the ÃŽÂ³-Proteobacteria. We show that, although these bacterial genomes display striking differences in gene repertoires, most gene families having representatives in several species have congruent histories. Other than the few vast multigene families, gene duplication has contributed relatively little to the contents of these genomes; instead, LGT, over time, provides most of the diversity in genomic repertoires. Most such acquired genes are lost, but the majority of those that persist in genomes are transmitted strictly vertically. Although our analyses are limited to the ÃŽÂ³-Proteobacteria, these results resolve a long-standing paradoxÃ¢â‚¬â€i.e., the ability to make robust phylogenetic inferences in light of substantial LGT.[/quote]</p>
<p>Now look at the problem that the authors are trying to answer (which I&#8217;ve boldfaced).  Do you think you could read this article, and understand how their data addresses that issue?  To truly understand this article, you&#8217;d not only have to read it, but you&#8217;d have to look at a large chunk of the 58 other articles that they cite.  I think that&#8217;s a lot to ask of a high school student.  Heck, that&#8217;s a lot to ask of a college senior.  So I think it&#8217;s a little unfair to claim that the scientific community thinks that high school students are stupid because they don&#8217;t understand the primarily literature, which is what&#8217;s needed to really understand why these alteratives to evolution have been discredited.</p>
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		<title>By: ariel</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-439</link>
		<dc:creator>ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2005 04:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-439</guid>
		<description>Correction:

Instead of &quot;Origin of *the* Speices,&quot; it should read &quot;On the Origin of Species,&quot; or just &quot;Origin.&quot;  Looks like I could&#039;ve used some more critical exposure myself.  ;) 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction:</p>
<p>Instead of &#8220;Origin of *the* Speices,&#8221; it should read &#8220;On the Origin of Species,&#8221; or just &#8220;Origin.&#8221;  Looks like I could&#8217;ve used some more critical exposure myself.  <img src='http://www.uncommondescent.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: ariel</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator>ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2005 04:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-438</guid>
		<description>Chris, 

For the ad hominem issue, I agree that &quot;stupid&quot; (if an absolute generalization) wouldn&#039;t the best way to characterize the opposition&#039;s view of students.  But in context, I don&#039;t see William doing that.  Whether we say they are not ready to handle the issues, not bright enough for finer points of biological controversy, intellectually unprepared for nuanced concepts, or whatever, &quot;too stupid&quot; is a just pointed way of summing that up, in my opinion.  He is stripping a euphemism, not being disengenuous.  

Your contention is that &quot;many...students are simply unprepared for basic college level academic work, like reading primary sources in philosophy.&quot;  I agree.  But, from my perspective, this is why teaching the controversy has such a strong case.  It is not that high school students would be unable to handle controversy, or differences of scientific opinion on a particular issue.  It is that, on issues where the establishment has vested interest to keep controversy under wraps, the kids are often not given the opportunity.  Why shouldn&#039;t high school students be getting critical exposure to primary sources of various disiciplines--science, philosophy, history, religion--so that they are better prepared for your college curriculum?  The point is that they can step up to the challenge--that is, if they can handle summarizing Origin of the Species (a science classic), then they can understand the basics of the current controversy (which gives that scientific classic immediate relevance to the kids&#039; lives).  If one argued that they can&#039;t handle such critical exposure, the criticism that the kids are thought &quot;too stupid&quot; is justified.  If one argued that they shouldn&#039;t recieve it, then I don&#039;t understand the reason for your &quot;shock&quot; at unprepared college students in the first place.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, </p>
<p>For the ad hominem issue, I agree that &#8220;stupid&#8221; (if an absolute generalization) wouldn&#8217;t the best way to characterize the opposition&#8217;s view of students.  But in context, I don&#8217;t see William doing that.  Whether we say they are not ready to handle the issues, not bright enough for finer points of biological controversy, intellectually unprepared for nuanced concepts, or whatever, &#8220;too stupid&#8221; is a just pointed way of summing that up, in my opinion.  He is stripping a euphemism, not being disengenuous.  </p>
<p>Your contention is that &#8220;many&#8230;students are simply unprepared for basic college level academic work, like reading primary sources in philosophy.&#8221;  I agree.  But, from my perspective, this is why teaching the controversy has such a strong case.  It is not that high school students would be unable to handle controversy, or differences of scientific opinion on a particular issue.  It is that, on issues where the establishment has vested interest to keep controversy under wraps, the kids are often not given the opportunity.  Why shouldn&#8217;t high school students be getting critical exposure to primary sources of various disiciplines&#8211;science, philosophy, history, religion&#8211;so that they are better prepared for your college curriculum?  The point is that they can step up to the challenge&#8211;that is, if they can handle summarizing Origin of the Species (a science classic), then they can understand the basics of the current controversy (which gives that scientific classic immediate relevance to the kids&#8217; lives).  If one argued that they can&#8217;t handle such critical exposure, the criticism that the kids are thought &#8220;too stupid&#8221; is justified.  If one argued that they shouldn&#8217;t recieve it, then I don&#8217;t understand the reason for your &#8220;shock&#8221; at unprepared college students in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: jonejinx</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-437</link>
		<dc:creator>jonejinx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 May 2005 02:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-437</guid>
		<description>Having been a high school student at one time I have to say that the best way to teach students science is to stop boring them. Win lose or draw the argument approach will stimulate student&#039;s minds far more than having to regurgitate some boring lecture on a test ever will.
In fact it will make the boring lectures better because their will be a point to them in the minds of the students. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been a high school student at one time I have to say that the best way to teach students science is to stop boring them. Win lose or draw the argument approach will stimulate student&#8217;s minds far more than having to regurgitate some boring lecture on a test ever will.<br />
In fact it will make the boring lectures better because their will be a point to them in the minds of the students.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveScot</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/education/sorry-kids-but-youre-just-too-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-428</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveScot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 May 2005 13:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/89#comment-428</guid>
		<description>I think the high school student, not having been brainwashed by the Church of Darwin clergy that reign at the university, is actually better prepared to discuss alternatives to the dogma by virtue of still having an open mind.


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the high school student, not having been brainwashed by the Church of Darwin clergy that reign at the university, is actually better prepared to discuss alternatives to the dogma by virtue of still having an open mind.</p>
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