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[Offtopic:] A Different Culture War

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Muslim Gang Rapes and the Aussie Riots
By Sharon Lapkin
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 15, 2005

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20535

In Australia this week amidst anger over an Islamic man’s rape conviction and the bashing of two Aussie life savers, working-class locals erupted in a rampage of anger and brawling in some of the worst racial riots in decades. But there is more to the story than is being repeated in the American mainstream media….

Four days after he set foot in Australia, the rape spree began. And during his sexual assault trial in a New South Wales courtroom, the Pakistani man began to berate one of his tearful 14-year-old victims because she had the temerity to shake her head at his testimony.

But she had every reason to express her disgust. After taking an oath on the Qur’an, the man – known only as MSK – told the court he had committed four attacks on girls as young as 13 because they had no right to say “no.” They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf, and therefore, the rapist proclaimed: “I’m not doing anything wrong.”

MSK is already serving a 22-year jail term for leading his three younger brothers in a gang rape of two other young Sydney girls in 2002. In his own defence, he argued that his cultural background, was responsible for his crimes.

And he is right.

In some parts of Pakistan, sexual assault – including gang rape – is officially sanctified as a legitimate form of enforcing the social value system.

One village council recently ordered that five young girls should be “abducted, raped or murdered” for refusing to be treated as chattel. The girls were aged between six and thirteen when they were married without their knowledge, to pay a family debt.

And when Mukhtar Mai’s 12-year-old brother was alleged to have committed an offence in a small Pakistani farming village, the village council ordered that his sister be gang-raped. So, she was taken to a hut where four men repeatedly assaulted her.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan there were 804 cases of such officially orchestrated sexual assault in 2000, and 434 of these were gang rapes. And if that isn’t bad enough, the victims of these atrocities are then expected to commit suicide because rape victims bring irreparable shame upon their family.

So as MSK committed his acts of rape while visiting Australia, he was simply perpetuating his own cultural heritage. He hails from a society where officially sanctioned sexual violence is commonly employed as a means to enforce the subservience of women.

And this is where two fundamental tenets of the modern Left clash: the irresistible force of cultural relativism collides with the immovable object of gender equality. But in the 21st century it is the latter that must prevail.

The laissez faire attitudes of cultural relativism are unacceptable in modern society. Female genital mutilation is not some quaint tribal custom that we are bound to respect: it is barbarism, pure and simple.

Yet many Western leftists habitually excuse these crimes against women in order to maintain political solidarity with their allies in the Islamic world. After all, it would be tough to make common cause with Muslim groups in the antiwar movement if Progressives began to criticize the practice of polygamy.

But along with Islamic immigration to the West have come Third World value systems regarding the treatment of women. We must not be seduced by the false tenets of cultural relativism into a toleration of forced marriages, officially sanctioned rape, and honour killings.

Australia’s unique brand of multiculturalism confers both rights and obligations: while cultural and linguistic diversity are to be cherished, every Australian must subscribe to a single standard of human rights. Australians must forcefully repudiate the corruption of the multicultural idea that would condone crimes against women and support jihadism.

The dangers of cultural relativism became evident Down Under last weekend when long-festering ethnic tensions erupted into violence at Cronulla Beach near Sydney. The trouble began when a group of Middle Eastern men were assaulted by mobs of angry locals. The local Member of Parliament, Bruce Baird MP, claimed the public outcry was revenge for the Bali bombings and September 11.

But Baird also explained that a series of high profile rapes in the area had spurred locals on and that a group of Middle Eastern men had attacked two Aussie lifesavers the previous weekend. Locals claimed to the media after the riots that they were sick of Lebanese Muslim gangs calling their daughters and wives names, and throwing cigarette butts at them.

Then neo-Nazis showed up in a transparent attempt to exploit local ethnic tensions for their own benefit. But mainstream Australians expressed their frustration with both the violence inflicted by Middle Eastern men, and the equally violent effort by white racists to exploit it.

While rejecting the tenets of neo-Nazism, working-class Aussies who live near Cronulla Beach were saying they’ve had enough of this culturally motivated crime wave in a wave of violence that is also unacceptable. The race riots in suburban Sydney represented a clash between two polar opposites of white supremacy and Islamic male supremacy. But the average Australian seeks a midpoint between these equally vile extremes in which fairness and a single standard of law will apply to all.

Comments
truth seeker you wrote: "just to clarify, my understanding is that Idolatry in hinduism is actually an expression of a pantheistic worldview… That is, everything is God and Idols help to ‘focus’ attension… or something like that…" It depends on who you ask. Hinduism is like Islam or Christianity or Judaism in that the word Hinduism denotes a category of religions and is not a religion itself. Just like in Islam or Christianity or Judaism we find different religions each claiming to be Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, and each with differing interpretations of scriptures, different doctrines and saints etc. So the same thing is found in Hinduism. There are many different schools of thought or sects under the title of Hinduism. The belief that you mention belongs to the religion or sect known as Advaita Vedanta. It's founder was Shankara or Sankara or Adi Sankara. He taught what is commonly called monism, which is sometimes mistaken for pantheism. I don't know of any Hindu sect which teaches pure pantheism. They are either almost all monists or panentheists. Essetially there are two types (and a minor third type) of Hinduism. Monism and panentheism. Monists make up barely 5% of the Hindu population but because they were the first teachers of Hinduism to come to the west and teach, their beliefs have influenced the west's perceptions of Hinduism to a great extent. Not to scholars of Hinduism, but to the common man. To the monist what you said is correct. They believe that worship of an idol as a representative of God is for beginners on the spiritual path. They teach that it is difficult for the average person to understand that God is formless, that God is everywhere and everything, including within ourselves, and that to meditate on God in that understanding is difficult. Therefore deity worship in the form of a statue or picture or even in the mind, of a form of God, seeing God as a person, focuses that person's understanding and ability on an easier conception. It is believed by the monists that idols, pictures, etc, make it easier to meditate on God and easier to relate to God. But once you have progressed beyond that need then the idol worship is given up. Not only is idol worship given up but also the conception that God as an individual person different from me or you is also given up. They teach that when one reaches enlightenment that all illusions of duality within the world disappear. At that stage the soul discovers "Aham Brahmasmi", "I am Brahman". They teach that God is not really an individual soul which is different then you or I, that we are all one with God, that God or Brahman is a spiritually ineffable transcendant reality. All notions of duality in this world are a product of illusion. There is only one reality, and that is Brahman. When enlightened the soul no longer sees the duality apparent in this world, he merges into the totality of supreme spirit which is Brahman. All seeming duality of the world of shapes and forms is an illusion. Not in the sense that duality doesn't exist. They do not deny that a tree or a house is an illusion and that they don't exist. They teach that ultimtely all things in this world are temporary manifestations of a single substance called Brahman. That ultimately there is only one substance which takes on a variety of the forms and shapes of this world and that when enlightened the person will see that the world of duality is illusory because everything is comprised and manifested from and by the same thing. The illusion or Maya they speak of is the illusion in our perception. They give the example of a snake and a rope. From a distance a rope may look like a snake, but upon closer examination it is seen to be a rope. So they teach that the world appears to be one thing but in reality it is something else. People who mistake the world to be what it appears to be are said to be under the influence of Maya or illusion. The most popular school of thought in Hinduism is the panentheism of the Bhakti schools. That accounts for over 90% of all Hindus. They come in a variety of religious beliefs but have in common the teaching that God is a person who while one with everything and everyone, that God is also distinct and different from everything and everyone. This is distinct from the non-duality of the previously mentioned Advaita Vedanta monist school. This school of thought believes in duality and non-duality at the same time. To make it simple to understand we can say that they believe in panentheism. That is that God comprises and is therefore one with everything and everyone, but at the same time everyone and everything is not God. The comparison is given of a drop of water in the ocean. The drop of water is one with the ocean, but at the same time the ocean is distinct from the drop of water in that the ocean is huge and powerful and exists in far more places then any single drop. They teach that God and the individual soul are of the same one substance, Atma, or spirit/consciousness, but that the individual soul will never become fully one with God upon enlightenment. There will always remain a vast difference between God and the soul even though they are one. Just like the drop of water in the ocean is part of the ocean, still the drop will never be equal with the ocean. They are one and not-one at the same time. While the monists believe that all difference will be lost upon enlightenment and that the soul will experience absolute oneness with God, the other schools of Hinduism teach that the soul enters into a personal one on one relationship with God upon enlightenment, and at the time of death goes to live with God in the transcendental perfected world, or heavenly realm. They teach that the idol or deity worship of a statue or picture or form of God in the mind is also to aid in meditation. But they do not teach that as one advances in enlightenment that the conception of God as an individual person, or of a God who has a form, will be given up in order to see that God is ultimtaely formless and non different then our selves. They teach that God is both formless and all pervading, AND has an eternal human form (many forms actually) and that in the transcendental heavenly realms God lives with us and interacts with us in those human forms. The monists teach that God or Brahman descends to earth in incarnations or avatars in human forms, but that ultimately those incarnations only exist for the purpose of teaching, and that they do not exist beyond the earthly realms. The other schools of Hinduism teach that those incarnations are earthly manifestations of eternal forms of God ever existing in the transcendental heavenly realm, and that they come done to teach and also to display "lila" or divine pastimes. That "lila" is taught as being a glimpse of what life is like in the trascendental heavenly realm. Then you wrote: "But with regards to Allah, Allah will never command something incorrect or false for the purpose of teaching, because as I said before, falsehood then becomes an eternal attribute of the Allmighty. Allah is unchanging, he will not lie at one point and then not lie later. This Goes against the nature of Allah." You need to re-read what I wrote.mentok
December 26, 2005
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Peace, just to clarify, my understanding is that Idolatry in hinduism is actually an expression of a pantheistic worldview... That is, everything is God and Idols help to 'focus' attension... or something like that... Correct me if I am wrong. peace...Truth_Seeker
December 26, 2005
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Mentok, I am familiar with that thinking or argument. I know that it is used to justify idol worship at the start while a person is a 'beginner' in religion, in hinduism. I would first say that falsehood and error can never be used by God for the purpose of guidance. The end does not justify the means. But also with regards to the worship of idols to bring one closer to the one God, Allah has this to say in the Qur'an: - Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful. (Qur'an, 39:3) That is, serving some host of idols to bring one closer to Allah is forbidden. The truth that God is 1, that the universe contains manifest signs of God's creation and power etc... This is not something you need to learn in stages, it is simple and easy, even a child can appreciate that. Your analogy of the child is actually irrelivant here, because never crossing the road or crossing only with supervision or looking both ways before crossing are not statements of truth or falsehood, they are advice. Advice may or may not be useful. But with regards to Allah, Allah will never command something incorrect or false for the purpose of teaching, because as I said before, falsehood then becomes an eternal attribute of the Allmighty. Allah is unchanging, he will not lie at one point and then not lie later. This Goes against the nature of Allah. Therefore I would suggest you clarify what your analogy is supposed to mean wrt Allah/God and the approach to God. peaceTruth_Seeker
December 26, 2005
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truth seeker you wrote: "1) Destroy the function of revelation by saying that everything ever said was actually the word of God. It makes no sense. My understanding, the Qur’anic understanding, that Allah allows falsehood as part of the trial of this life is logical and removes nothing from Allah of his majesty and removes nothing from the trial." Consider this analogy. You tell your young children that they must never cross the road alone, as they get older the rules change, no longer are there as many restrictions. The same principle applies in one's spiritual awakening. For the neophyte he is advised to see God through the revelations of scriptures and of people who are experts in the scriptures and to avoid the things and expressions of the "worldly". As the neophyte deepens in his understanding he finds that the earlier admonition to see God in the scripture and to avoid the worldly, is there only to raise his consciousness, to enable him to see a deeper reality. Once attaining to the deeper vision he sees that there is nothing separate from God, that God is fully controlling everything and everyone, including his own mind, at all times. At that stage that which was once seen as separate from God, and seen as the workings of chaos or of people and actions averse to God, becomes seen in a different light. Once you can appreciate the true situation of this world, at that stage the puppetmaster can use the puppets to show you just what He is all about and what He can do. We are all puppets, once understanding this in truth, in a constant realized state, then God becomes visible to our vision, within and without. This is not meant for neophytes on the spiritual path, it is meant for those who see through the eyes of knowledge, whose vision has been opened by God. "Those who perceive Me in everything, and behold everything in Me, are not separated from Me, and I am not separated from them." Bhagavad Gita 6.30mentok
December 25, 2005
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mentok, once again, I disagree... you say: - "“with all due respect, your answer is yes, muhammad was the creator of Islam.” No, my answer was that God, Allah created Islam and that Muhammed was the vehicle for God." If this was actually true you would be a muslim, but i understand why you (presumably) are not,lets see how I deduce this based upon the last thig you say. But first, you say: - "“The statement that in reality God is the creator of all things (true) merely serves to muddy the waters.” I believe that the truth never “muddies the waters”." Well actually, truth can muddy the waters when it is not directly relevant to what was being said. That statement is true at all times, hence to just say it within a specific context that does not need it, is muddying the waters. next you say: - "“Falsehood that a man may pronounce, and the movement that may follow are also the creation of God. But that falsehood is not FROM God…” That’s a contradiction. If God controls everything that goes on then falsehoods are also under the direction of God. Does that mean that God endorses falsehoods?" No contradiction, Allah brings everything into existance, creates every moment that exists, we cannot will to do something or do something except by Allah's leave. Allah allows falsehood to exist, and for people to speak it because of the reality of our existance. We are beings who are being tested in this life, and part of the test is our choice to believe or not to believe, to speak truth or to speak falsehood. All these things Allah allows as he wills. But they are not from Allah. Because Allah is the truth and speaks only the truth. So to answer the supposed contradiction, Allah does not endorse falsehood, Allah allows it as part of the test of this life. Your understanding imples a god who from himself (and therefore as part of his eternal and unchanging nature) lies and cheats... And at the same time you: - 1) Destroy the function of revelation by saying that everything ever said was actually the word of God. It makes no sense. My understanding, the Qur'anic understanding, that Allah allows falsehood as part of the trial of this life is logical and removes nothing from Allah of his majesty and removes nothing from the trial. 2) You seem to promote some form of determinism by removing any actual choice from mankind. you say: - "God or Allah is the primary cause of everything, if something exists it’s because God caused it to exist, all other causes proceed from the first cause." I would go one step further and say there are no secondary causes at all. We are not the creators and causes of our thoughts and actions, whereas we are merely entrusted by Allah to choose, and Allah guides this as he judges. We are essentially able to think only because Allah created that ability and does so perpetually, and will to do things because Allah allows us to do so. Allah allows this as it is within his plan for his creation within this life. two verses of note: - “And Allah created you and whatever you do” (The Qur’an. ‘Chapter’ 37 Verse 96) and "This is nothing else than a reminder unto creation, For him among you who wills to go straight. and you do not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds." (Qur'an 81:27-29) you say: - "God is always speaking through everyone and everything, if we can understand that, then God can reveal that truth through everything and everyone, directly to us, understand?" This is only partially true. Many things are signs of Allah in that they point to him. But not all things that are said are FROM Allah. The universe is a physical revelation from Allah and scripture is the word based revelation from Allah. But the words of mankind... one ust be careful... Anyway, these are topics needing more time to deal in full depth with. Understand? Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 24, 2005
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truth seeker you wrote: "with all due respect, your answer is yes, muhammad was the creator of Islam." No, my answer was that God, Allah created Islam and that Muhammed was the vehicle for God. Then you wrote: "The statement that in reality God is the creator of all things (true) merely serves to muddy the waters." I believe that the truth never "muddies the waters". Then you wrote: "Falsehood that a man may pronounce, and the movement that may follow are also the creation of God. But that falsehood is not FROM God…" That's a contradiction. If God controls everything that goes on then falsehoods are also under the direction of God. Does that mean that God endorses falsehoods? I would say no. But if God didn't want those falsehoods promulgated then why do they exist? Is God too weak to stop them? Whatever exists does so because God wants it that way, if God didn't want it that way, it wouldn't exist. God is in charge and whatever exists in whatever form and fashion it exists in is because God wants it to exist for some purpose. Then you wrote: "I state and mean that Allah is the primary cause of Islam in that it was intended as truth. The Qur’an is FROM Allah (God), I do not mean that it was just some other thing that God brought about but which was actually the thoughts of the man Muhammad." God or Allah is the primary cause of everything, if something exists it's because God caused it to exist, all other causes proceed from the first cause. The thoughts of Muhammed are also from God, as are the thoughts of everyone else. All thoughts are dependent on memory, which is controlled by God. These words are coming from God, whether or not God endorses them as aboslute truth or he has me say them for some other purpose, is up for you to decide, that's called free will. The same is true of what you say or anyone else says. God is always speaking through everyone and everything, if we can understand that, then God can reveal that truth through everything and everyone, directly to us, understand?mentok
December 24, 2005
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peace, just for the purpose of clarification... I say: - "Islam and all the pure messages act as discontinuities in time followed by periods of corruption. And so in the tradition of what came before Islam came to cancel the corruption by once again bringing the truth that has always been." The qur'anic Message of Islam has survived, although distortion has been added to the practice of Islam it via the Hadith liturature and the ulema... But those distortions are such that they can be removed since they are not in the very message of the Qur'an. So I would rephrase that statement as: - "The Qur'an and all the pure messages act as discontinuities in time. For the messages before the Qur'an there is the discontinuity followed by periods of corruption. And so in the tradition of what came before, Islam came to cancel the corruption by once again bringing the truth that has always been." To correct a misconception I have presented, Islam was not the new message, that is, the submission of will to God. But the Qur'an was a new revelation with the purpose of establishing Islam once again. Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 24, 2005
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Mentok, with all due respect, your answer is yes, muhammad was the creator of Islam. The statement that in reality God is the creator of all things (true) merely serves to muddy the waters. Falsehood that a man may pronounce, and the movement that may follow are also the creation of God. But that falsehood is not FROM God.... I state and mean that Allah is the primary cause of Islam in that it was intended as truth. The Qur'an is FROM Allah (God), I do not mean that it was just some other thing that God brought about but which was actually the thoughts of the man Muhammad. Islam says that it is merely the same message that was preached before and hence it continues in a unified tradition. But be clear that it is here referring to the original messages that were brought via the prophets, and not the curroption of beliefs and practices that were later followed in these religions. Just one example: - For the Arabs at the time of the prophet who worshipped at the Ka’bah, Salaat/prayer was corrupted and empty of meaning, as Allah tells us: - “Their prayer at the House (Ka’bah) is nothing but whistling and clapping. So taste the punishment because you disbelieved!” (Qur’an, 8:35) And there is more in this regard (that is the history of corruption by the followers). Islam and all the pure messages act as discontinuities in time followed by periods of corruption. And so in the tradition of what came before Islam came to cancel the corruption by once again bringing the truth that has always been. Allah says in the Qur'an: - We sent a Messenger among every people saying: 'Worship Allah and keep clear of all false gods.' Among them were some whom Allah guided but others received the misguidance they deserved. Travel about the earth and see the final fate of the deniers. (Qur'an, 16:36) And regarding practices that are shared. The point of what I was saying is not that there are no shared practices, but instead that the practices are not neccessarily DERIVED from each other. There is a big difference. The Qur'an was revealed as a furqaan (a criterion) between what is right and wrong and elsewhere it is also described as something whaich is muhayminun (an overseer/corrector) of what came before. So Islam came to confirm what was correct and correct what was wrong. you say: - "Therefore we find reference to Jewish religious concepts within Islam" This must be understood within the context of what the Qur'an was doing, some of the practices that were done are critisized, others are not. Islam did not come (as none of the messages came) as some massive and radical departure from all that came before, it came (again) to re-establish pure monotheism (the true and timeless message) and to clear away the falsehood that man had attactched to it. Regaridng judaism containing narratives and inclusions from other sources... this is nothing new, it is even identified in the Qur'an as one of the bad things done to the message that was repeatedly sent to the Jews. Example: - But those who did wrong substituted words other than those they had been given. So We sent down a plague from heaven on those who did wrong because they were deviators. (Qur'an, 2:59) Do you really hope they will follow you in faith when a group of them heard Allah's Word and then, after grasping it, knowingly distorted it? (Qur'an, 2:75) Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say 'This is from Allah' to sell it for a paltry price. Woe to them for what their hands have written! Woe to them for what they earn! (Qur'an, 2:79) Those who conceal what Allah has sent down of the Book and sell it cheap, take nothing into their bellies but the Fire. On the Day of Rising Allah will not speak to them or purify them. They will have a painful punishment. (Qur'an, 2:174) But because of their breaking of their covenant, We have cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort the true meaning of words and have forgotten a good portion of what they were reminded of. You will never cease to come upon some act of treachery on their part, except for a few of them. Yet pardon them, and overlook. Allah loves good-doers. (Qur'an, 5:13) But those of them who did wrong substituted words other than those they had been given. So We sent a plague on them from heaven for their wrongdoing. (Qur'an, 7:162) I hope you can understand my explanation in this regard. I look forward to your comments. Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 24, 2005
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truth seeker you wrote: "1) I do not see muhammad as the creator of the religion of Islam, that I ascribe to Allah… God.2) To say that Islam ‘borrows’ from prior practices indicates a causal relationship and that it is a religion made up in which the founder picks and chooses what he likes." 1) I agree that God..Allah did work through Muhammad, I said that Muhammad created Islam in the sense of Muhammad being the efficient cause, but I would agree that God is the final cause of Islam because I would posit that God is the final cause of everything i.e everything is acting or moving based upon the will of God in all that occurs. 2) We see that in most religions we can find practices of previous religions within them. We may not see that in all religions, it is not an axiomatic truth, but we do see it often. In fact Islam claims to be a continuance of or in a series of truths handed down by prophets in the line of Hebrew prophets with Muhammad being the final or latest prophet. Therefore we find reference to Jewish religious concepts within Islam. The same exact thing is found in Christianity with respect to the claim of Jesus being the fulfillment of Hebrew prophecy. That is not said to belittle any of those beliefs, but it is simply factual. I don't believe Islam was derived from hinduism, I pointed out that some of the practices of the meccans were incorporated into Islam and that those practices seem to possibly be hindu in origin. We can find the same thing in Biblical theology e.g concepts about Angels and Planetary Hosts. Those concepts were imported into Judaism while in their captivity in Babylon. After the Israelites were captured and sent to Babylon that is when Cyrus conquered Babylon, the Hebrews were there and he set them free. The jews write about Cyrus as a messiah figure. The religion of Persia at that time and of Cyrus was Zoroastrianism. We can find many Zoroastrian concepts within Judaism. see http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Zoroastrim/zoroastrianism_and_judaism.htmmentok
December 23, 2005
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Though I have no more intension to discuss with harban, regarding your yes no question, just look at my war in the Qur'an post and judge for yourself, the relevant verses are there. But if you need a monosyllabic answer, then if you are only asking "if its for no other reason other than changing ones mind on Islam, can this person be killed?" the answer is NO. to save you having to page up or whatever here is a relevant verse: - Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.” The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the “Truth stands out clear from error” (2:256). And so, harban, believe whatever you want, I dont really care. I thought you wanted a proper honest discussion and thats why i took part... But that wasnt the case. I hope that some day you will let go of your anger and venom and just try to be honest in understanding what it is you so passionately hate. At least then, your comments would contain some evidence of thought and consideration. And perhaps too, you will learn that insults are not the best way to present your case. Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 23, 2005
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Peace, just to mentok, Just two quick comments I want to make... 1) I do not see muhammad as the creator of the religion of Islam, that I ascribe to Allah... God. 2) To say that Islam 'borrows' from prior practices indicates a causal relationship and that it is a religion made up in which the founder picks and chooses what he likes. On these two points I would be interested to see what your evidence/thoughts for them would be. As a general point: - If mr. x says something and later I say something and its possible that i have met mr. x, is that proof that I copied that statement from mr. x? No... Its possible... But one must analyse further. It is not enough to say that a preceded b hence a -> b. I think you should be careful to differenciate between something being temporally prior and causally prior. The first needs little proof, the latter needs much more proof. Also, for your interest... There was a christian missionary called Robert morey who tried to prove that Islam was derived from a the moon god religion(s) of the middle east. His thesis is dealt with and soundly refuted in this article... http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html As another point of interest, christians also try to say that Islam just borrows from a collection of apocryphal writings and other sources and misunderstandings of christian text and theology. Their arguments are dealt with very well here (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/). In both these cases, the error was "before = cause" with some hand waving arguments... On the issue of the pre islamic arabs following something vedic in style... Its possible that they developed their idolatry and their customs themselves, idols etc... stuff like that may be fairly common i think... But to me, on a superficial level at least... The religious customs and beliefs of the pre islamic arabs seem similar to that of hindus (or more accurately vedantists)... Would I be correct in characterising your belief if I said that you believed that All religions (except maybe vedantism) are to some extent derived from one another along with cultural flavours? If not, could you briefly outline how you see it? (unless your previous post contains it already...) I may be worth seeing if there are vedic like beliefs in areas not theorized for Hindus to have been... Sorry for the short post, im tired and sick and over worked... (smallest violin in the world plays in the background...)... I am in the midst of post grad research and other stuff and im pooped, so i am not at all interacting as i would like to... Ill be starting on those 12 questions very soon Inshallah (God willing)... They are good... To finish for now, I would like to thank you for your well mannered and civilised interaction with me on this topic. Its a breath of fresh air... Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 23, 2005
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Well Truthseeker, you and Marwan are from a nonsensical form of Islam.....it is pointless to try and debate you when you say you are somehow representative of Orthodox Islam and you are not....You both are considered rank heretics.... Give me at least Honest Muslims that believe in the Quran and Sunnah and I am happy to debate.....you are simply cafeteria muslims that pick and choose the nice aspects of Islam and throw out the brutal parts... However, the Quran itself is brutal alone...150 admonitions alone to kill and slaugher non muslims......wife beating advocated.....treating your wife as a 'tilth' or in otherwords as a sperm receptacle when ever the Muslim male feels the urge so to speak... Again, you 2 are about as representative of Islam as Scientology is representative of Christianity.... The same goes for Sufis or Ismailies.......they are completely heretical and have been horribly persecuted by Orthodox Islam for centuries for their views.. However, the funny thing is, the more heretical a Muslim is like our Quran only friends here or Sufis, the more decent a person they are... The more Orthodox the Muslim is, the more dangerous they become... If I had my druthers, all of Darul Islam would be made up of Sufis or Quran only..........of course they are not remotely True Muslims but at least we wouldn't be having 1400 years of bloodshed on our hands.. A question to either resident muslim here... Do you agree with executing ex muslims as per Islam's teachings or do you reject such evil instructions? Yes or No please... If No, then you have no problem with Ex Muslims living in Muslim societies openly practicing their new non muslim religions, right? AS you know now, not one Muslim society on earth and none ever in the past has tolerated ex muslims........even today in 'liberal' turkey or maylaysia, ex muslims are persecuted and thrown in jail... In more honest and orthodox Islamic countries, ex muslims are executed as per Islamic teaching.... I would like to know what are muslim friends here think about this issue.....it is dear to my heart as I have 5 acquaintences that are Ex Muslims here in Alberta.... Also, to a point one of our muslim friends made earlier about my Muslim girlfriend dating me many years ago....yes you are right...a Muslim Girl is not allowed to date a Kafir like me......However, Turks are pretty liberal in their interpretation of Islam....she was more Ataturk then devout Muslim too be sure though she was certainly a nominal believer that introduced me to the Quran ThanksProudDarulHarbian
December 23, 2005
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Truthseeker, “Pmob1, your comments also leave allot to be desired…” Okay. Sorry about that. But it’s frustrating you know? You say the Kaaba is not an idol yet millions of Muslims bow down to it everyday exactly as if they were worshipping. You say it’s not an idol, that it’s really nothing special, just a piece of cloth and yet I can’t go visit it and take pictures of this mere piece of cloth and respectfully check it out. C’mon. It just doesn’t add up. It’s like Elton John marrying some old bald guy. I don’t get it. Then you guys try to blame the Saudis, like it’s all their fault and the mean Saudis won’t let innocent people like me go take pictures of the Kaaba. It’s the mean old Saudis that are distorting things. Okay, so you’re telling me a billion Muslims are deluded enough to lap up a bunch of Saudi B.S.? A billion Muslims are buying into a bunch of Saudi distorted nonsense every day of the week like clockwork? Hey, that isn’t a religion. It’s Jerry Springer.pmob1
December 22, 2005
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truth seeker you wrote: "mentok, can i take it you are a hindu or a vedantist?" To one degree or another. "Are you seriously trying to imply that Islam is a hindu religion and that the ka’bah was a hindu monument? If so, in trade (:-) for my answers to those question) could you please summarise the case in those links for me, or at least give me the gist of them." To the first question, No. To the second question, there seems to be a lot of confusion about what religion was practiced in the Kaaba by mainstream western historians. What religions do we know were being practiced in the middle east right before Islam? Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism (mandeism), Manichaeism, Sabaeanism, Nabataeanism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and probably many other lesser known religions and surviving remnants of much older religions. If we go much furthur back in time there is a lot of evidence that all of these religions (including european religions e.g Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Greek) were influenced by the Vedic religion. Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism which was a direct offshoot of the Vedic religion. Also the Celtic religion and Vedic religion are very similar as has been noted by scholars of the Celtic religion, as well as the "Pagan" religions of Greece and Rome and of the Germanic tribes were all also related to the Vedic religion, as was their language related to the language of the Vedic religion; sanskrit. The study of sanskrit in the 18th century led to the development of the Indo-European thesis also called the aryan invasion theory which is the current mainstream academic position in most of the world's universities. Although there are many people who reject that theory, a lot of them Indian historians who claim a cultural bias in the interpretation of historical data on the part of the west. That theory was developed by British academics who upon studying sanskrit in the latter part of the 18th century were surprised to find that it is closely related to almost all of the european languages, and the older the language, the closer they are related. A theory was put forth as to how that had come to be. The theory was that a long time ago there were migrations westward out of India and that those migrants eventually ended up in Europe and that their language, religion, and culture melded with the pre-civilized Europeans. By the time of the Greeks there was no memory of their Indian ancestors. But the influence was there to be seen in the languages, religions, and cultures of Europe of that time, all of them had similarities to what the British were discovering in India. But that theory did not last long. Why? Probably because it went against the British political and colonial ambitions in India. A new theory was created and it is the theory with slight modification which has continued on down to us today. That theory was called The Aryan Invasion Theory, after WW2 the word aryan became politically incorrect so they changed the name of the theory to the Proto Indo European theory, or PIE for short. That theory teaches that long ago before civilization in europe there was a people who lived somewhere near the steppes of Eurasia or maybe closer to europe. No one knows because there is no physical evidence that they came from where the theory claims they came from, it's a theory based on linguistics alone. So the theory goes that these people had an oral tradition which was later written down i.e The Vedas. These people had developed horse drawn chariots when everyone else was living without. They were warlike and decided to leave their homeland. They moved into Europe, Asia Minor, Persia, and India, conquering wherever they moved into because of their superior war abilities of the horse drawn chariots. That was theorized to have happened somwhere around 1700 b.c. or maybe earlier. More recently that theory has come under fire and has (IMO) been succesfully refuted, although the mainstream academic community in the west doesn't like to budge on the issue, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. But they have been forced to change the theory to a small degree because of the evidence from the Harappan civilization, they were there long before the so called aryan invasion, and their cities show no sign of an invasion or battles. They now claim that the "Aryans" did not conquer India but came in migrations and eventually became the dominant culture. So it is believed that the Vedic religion has had a major impact on the cultures and religions of the very ancient world. The newer Non Aryan invasion theorists have a different theory which is based on more then linguistics. They believe they have proven that the aryans were from India. One of their many points is that the Vedas make no mention of any place outside of greater India (including afghanistan). So if the historical tradition of the aryans makes no mention of any invasion, nor mention of migration, nor mention even of places outside of India, then it makes more sense that it is because India is their homeland, espeically since that is what the aryans themselves claim. That theory posits that long long ago migrations regularly started out of India westward because the climate changed. Western India some 7000 years ago was a very lush place, today it is mostly desertified. That process started around 7000 years ago. In the Vedas the aryans speak a lot about their homeland centered around the great mother river Saraswati. From the mountains to the sea their homeland was like an eden. For a long time no one knew where that river was. But it was mentioned in other ancient texts that the river had greatly dried up by 5000 years ago. A few years ago using satellite technology the dry river bed of the Sarasvati river was discovered east of the Indus river, in the Indian desert. It's a humongous river basin flowing from the mountains to the sea, just as the aryans themselves claimed. Some 90% of the towns discovered of the "Harappan" civilization were in that desert, and it turned out that they were all centered along the dry river bed of the Saraswati(the river bed is under the sand and invisible to the human eye). see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2073159.stm http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/scientific-verif-vedas.html So the new theory of how how the ancient cultures in Europe, Asia Minor, Persia, and India came to be related is that as Western India was drying up over a few thousand years, there was a continuous migration of people, many going westward. This can be easily as possible seen in such cultures as the Roma or Gypsies (originally from India). Although they more likely entered Europe after the advent of Islam. They were probably living in the middle east and left when Islam took over. In fact the name Gypsy is derived from Egypt because that is where many of them entered into Europe from, and where they were thought to have originated from by the Europeans. No one knew where they were from, even the Roma themselves. But by looking at them it is obvious that they are Indian. A few years back some researchers took on the job of finding out the roots of the Roma seriously and they discovered that they spoke an Indian dialect, and that their music is Indian in origin, and that their religion has some Hindu aspects. Now it is accepted by the Roma and by mainstream academics that they originally came from India. Also, this may surprise you, the Druze also were originally a Vedic relgion. The Druze are mysterious people who have for along time refused to let outsiders know what they believe, until recently see http://tinyurl.com/9xg4w They were most likely a community of a sect of Vedic people who stayed in the middle east after the advent of Islam, whereas the Roma left, as well as the rest of the Vedic worshippers. There has always been since the most ancient times a strong link between India and Iraq and Arabia because that is a major trade route, it's a short easy boat ride between Arabia and India and that route is still sailed today. Due to that merchant business many Indians moved westward and arabs moved into India. Thats why in the west of India many of the people look more like arabs then Indians. So the point I'm getting at is that for a very long time there had been a big influence upon the middle east from India, especially the ancient "pagan" religions (another topic), as well as Judaism through Zoroastrianism. Was the "pagan" religion of the Meccans Vedic in origin? The arguments put forth on those links I provided do a good job of showing a good argument for that. Although the authors speak derogatorily of Islam, they do make some good arguments about the religion of the meccans. The prophet Muhammed clearly created a new religion, but some of the old religious practices were incorporated into Islam in various ways, or so it appears.mentok
December 22, 2005
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mentok, women in preislamic arabia http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/herstory.html peace.Truth_Seeker
December 22, 2005
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mentok, just to clarify, i have not read the links... just skimmed on or two... Just in case you think i am trying to misrepresent their content. Anyway, ill be working on those questions for you. peace.Truth_Seeker
December 22, 2005
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To harban, I have already outlined my side and challanged you to present any evidence for your claims. you have failed and rely now as before upon frankly ignorant and disrespectful comments. My discussion with you is over. I have also given details of websites that respond to both the websites you quote. You describe them as inept, well, to be honest, your opion holds no weight at all as it is clear you are a biased, narrow minded individual whose only skill is in portraying an example of ignorance and disrespect. Pmob1, your comments also leave allot to be desired... mentok, can i take it you are a hindu or a vedantist? Are you seriously trying to imply that Islam is a hindu religion and that the ka'bah was a hindu monument? If so, in trade (:-) for my answers to those question) could you please summarise the case in those links for me, or at least give me the gist of them. This thesis is entirely revisionist from an obviuosly biased perspective. If you summaries the points, ill respond accordingly. peaceTruth_Seeker
December 22, 2005
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Truthseeker, So I gather I can’t get anywhere near the Great Kaaba Idol that puts a billion Muslim butts in the air 3 times a day (as you prescribe), the Great Idol that drives all Muslims insane. Gee, I never would have guessed it. Honestly, I never would have guessed it in a zotz’s age. You know what? You have helped me understand why shrieking lunatics break up ancient statues in Afghanistan. It’s because their shtick is so lame that anything, no matter how pitiful, is a threat to their faith in The Idol Behind The Curtain. I pity them. I pray for them. I pray that they give up their shroud that hangs before a rock that never was.pmob1
December 21, 2005
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Yes I have read the turgid Quran and what a painful experience that was....oy....... Seriously, if either of these 2 'muslims' were to try and practice their 'islam' in any Islamic state, they would be flogged in the market square for their heretical views!! Of course, Orthodox Islam, Sunni or Shia, would also flog Sufis, Ismailies, Ahymidias, Alawites et al... Again, I would refer our readers to Ex Muslims either in person where you live or online with the myriad of websites run by these Brave people.... One of the best is run by Ali Sina.....this site comes from mainly a secular pov and their goal is too help muslims to come out of Islam... www.faithfreedom.org If you have any questions about the Quran or Hadiths or Sira or Shariah et al, these are the people to ask........they were raised in it and they know all the tricks and techniques that Muslims use in defending Darul Islam.... Good stuff too be sure.... If you want too talk to Ex Muslims that are now Christians, their is of course www.answering-islam.org..........which has so infuriated the Islamic Cyberspace world that they set up the hilariously inept answering-christianity......you know what they say about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Our 2 friends here are from a small (very very small)group of Quran only muslims who are rightly embarrassed of the Sahih Hadiths and Sira.... But again, without these sources, the Quran absolutely falls apart...it simply makes no sense.........Again, I encourage everyone to read the Quran to find out for themselves!!ProudDarulHarbian
December 21, 2005
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One more thing about the Kaaba: http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htmmentok
December 21, 2005
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If women were worthless in arabia before Islam why then was Khadija the wealthiest or one of the wealthiest merchants in mecca? Also there were many Jews and a large segment of a variety of Christians living all over the middle east, were they also in your opinion mistreating women? The pre Islamic arabs had many Goddess figures in their religion, wouldn't that say a lot about how they viewed women. How do you know how women were treated before Islam? I am interested in gaining a deeper theological understanding beyond the historical vantage point, history is written by the victors and therefore unreliable if our source for history is the victors side of the tale. To me history is much less important when it comes to an ancient religion because of the fudge factor, nothing is reliable unless corroborated by both the victors and the vanquished. , i await for your answers, thank you. Peace.mentok
December 21, 2005
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I meant ill post the questions on my blog and answer them their too...Truth_Seeker
December 21, 2005
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Hey pmob1, The kaaba is referred to as the ancient house, figuratively the house of God. It is a symbol and a directional guide for prayer. It is not worshipped, although some sunnis go a bit crazy over the black corner stone in the building. But in an essential sense it is not being worshipped when they bow down to pray. A hindu temple? I think more likly the similarity was in the concept of idols and polytheism as opposed to it being a hindu temple. Qur'anically, it was never originally a hindu temple. Regarding directions, i think ratzinger the new pope states that you must be directed to jerusalem, I also gave that quote from the ot in a previous post. You would not be allowed to go to the ka'bah now in Saudi arabia without proclaiming the unity of God. This is the position the government has taken. I'll check up the Qur'anic position on this when I get the chance... An idol is an object that is taken for worship in partnership with the All mighty, the ka'bah has never served this purpose for muslims. The ka'bah has been rebuilt in the past... If it was blown up, yes there would be lots of irritation, what would happen, i dunno. Regarding the timeline, I will look at historical data before i jump to your conclusions that it was neccessarily bad. But please realise, there was much hostility to the muslims from all round. They came with a message that sounded the death knell of polytheism and injustice. It threatened the tribal gods and divisive customs, the slave trade, prostitution, alcohol, unjust killing, fornication, the utter disrespect that women suffered (they were worthless before Islam)... Everything that idolatrous, tribal, unjust and ignorant world held dear was threatened. One must analyse context... To mentok... Thank you for your questions, they are very important, if you want them answered properly, you will have to wait for them one (or two) at a time... I'll post them here and on my blog... I hope you will find them useful. I'll also post them on my blog and proceed to answer them when I can. PeaceTruth_Seeker
December 21, 2005
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Marwan, Regarding the timeline, 632-700: Okay, so Islam and The Conquering Horde were unrelated. Big coincidence. I think I get the picture. My ancestors roared out of Scandinavia not long after and beat the crap out of lot of people. I guess from now on I’ll just say they took care of some very evil reactionaries who didn’t want to submit to the truth.pmob1
December 21, 2005
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mentok, you write: The Islamic story is that the Kaaba is revered because it was built by Adam and rebuilt by Abrahama and Noah. Okay, so it IS an idol. I mean walks like an idol, talks like an idol, etc. I don’t know any Jews who face Hebron or Mt Sinai to pray. They might go to the Wailing Wall the way an Oglala goes up to Harney Peak I guess. I don’t know any Lutherans who kneel down to Wittenburg. I have some Catholic friends who have kissed the Pope’s ring but I don’t think they face the ring when they pray. In fact, I don’t think they worshipped the ring when they had their audience. I get the distinct impression that this Kaaba thing is different. I mean if the Old Temple Wall was blown up, I think the Jews would be in a terrific fit. But they’d get over it pretty quick. They’ve seen walls tumble. They’ve seen salt poured on the broken blocks. It’s part of the Predicament. Faith survives. But if the Kaaba got blown to smithereens, I have the distinct impression that a lot of Muslims would lose their marbles completely. Am I wrong?pmob1
December 21, 2005
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Truth Seeker or Marwan, Kaaba: Well, when you see people bowing down toward something all the time, you naturally think maybe they’re worshipping it. But maybe I’ve got it wrong. And there is no actual rock? Okay, so if it’s just a building and a piece of cloth, then that can’t be a worship item I wouldn’t think. So here’s the question: if there’s no idol thing going on, could I go to Mecca and check this thing out? You know, walk up to it, take pictures, touch it, that sort of thing. I went to St Peter’s and the Sistine Chapel. I went inside, touched it, stared at it, all that sort of thing. I understand I could go to the Wailing Wall and walk right up to that. I know people who have. So I could walk up to the cube-shaped building and the piece of cloth, right?pmob1
December 21, 2005
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Truth seeker I like the way you present Islam. Although I am ignorant of may of it's teachings. Could you find time to answer a few questions? 1. What is the nature of God or Allah? e.g is Allah a person who you can speak directly with and directly interact with, like between you and me here? 2. What is the nature of the eternal relationship between Allah and the individual soul? e.g is it a relationship of obedience to an impersonal authority, master to servant, friend to friend, parent to child, lover to lover? 3. Why is there a disparity in the way that peoples lives unfold here on earth e.g some rich some poor, some healthy some unhealthy, some safe and content some unsafe and miserable etc. 4. Is their eternal damnation for some or is everyone destined for a spiritual apotheosis? 5. I hear that upon going to heaven that you will have a bunch of virgin girls as your playthings, is that true? If so where did those virgins come from? Are all people who go to heaven going to receive virgin girls including women who go to heaven? 6. I hear that Islam is based on the Torah. Does Islam teach that God created the universe, earth, and humanity recently, with the creation of Adam as the first human in existence less then 10,000 years ago? 7. If the above is true how do you view intelligent design theorists who reject young earth creationism? Is Islam only compatible with young earth creationism? 8. Is there a description of heaven e.g what is life like there? 9. Is Islam panentheistic? i.e Allah is everywhere, everything is born from and comprised of Allah and controlled by Allah, and Allah is also existing transcendental to or beyond the confines and physical laws of the created world. 10. What part does satan play if any at all? 11. I have read that Sufism teaches about encountering and communicating with Allah within our own self and mind, this is a very Hindu type of teaching, is this a common Islamic teaching? 12. What enables a person to go to heaven and what keeps them from going to heaven? Thanksmentok
December 21, 2005
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Peace, My Islam is not truncated, it is complete. It is the sunni/shia form that containes superfluous material. Now to the various comments you made... Lets get to the meat of it... Present your evidence and lets make this more than an assertion-fest... Without evidence, your words are nothing but hot air... I hope that in your attempt to back up your claims that you for once actually read the Qur'an. :-) Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 21, 2005
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So we have a couple of Muslims here who to their credit openly admit that they practice a truncated form of Islam...Quran only Islam.....an Islam that is recognized by less then 5 % of Islam .... The problem with this is that without the Sunnah , the Quran makes no sense whatsoever!??? Their are 2 dangers with the short Quran....one is the amount of overt violence in its writings against non muslims .........secondly and that is the tremendou ambigiuty and vagueness in the Quran which leaves it open to wide ranging interpretations....... Without the additional writings, one cannot make hide nor hair of the Quran which is a mess....it may sound very nice phonetically when spoken in proper Arabic, but it makes very very little sense! And still , Muhammed and Islam come off very very poorly inside the Quran on its own when one can understand it........ Though granted it is less violent without the Sunnah but less comphrenisible!! Damned if you do......damned if you don't ......ProudDarulHarbian
December 21, 2005
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sorry for the unintended double post... The first one is the one that was meant. peace.Truth_Seeker
December 21, 2005
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