Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part III

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I have been reflecting on the critical responses to my posts, which I appreciate. They mostly centre on the very need for ID to include theodicy as part of its intellectual orientation.

 

The intuitive basis for theodicy is pretty harmless: The presence of design implies a designing intelligence. Moreover, in order to make sense of the exact nature of the design, you need to make hypotheses about the designing intelligence. These hypotheses need to be tested and may or may not be confirmed in the course of further inquiry. Historians and archaeologists reason this way all the time. However, the theodicist applies the argument to nature itself.

 

At that point, theodicy binds science and theology together inextricably — with potentially explosive consequences. After all, if you take theodicy seriously, you may find yourself saying, once you learn more about the character of nature’s design, that science disconfirms certain accounts of God – but not others. Scientific and religious beliefs rise and fall together because, in the end, they are all about the same reality.

 

This is explosive because we live in a world where (allegedly) false scientific beliefs and false religious beliefs are treated radically differently. The former are a matter of public concern: Stamp them out now before our kids’ minds are contaminated! However, the latter are seen as being of purely private concern: Only the belief’s holder bears the consequences. I suppose this double-standard is what makes us ‘modern’, or at least ‘secular’. We end up tolerating all sorts of religious beliefs – including militant atheism – while even minor deviations from the scientific orthodoxy can lead to ostracism, as when Michael Reiss opened the door to creationist questioning of evolution.

 

Now some people on this blog believe that the safest way out of this minefield is to say that ID makes no hypotheses about the designing intelligence – some even go further to say that in principle the designing intelligence cannot be inferred from design. If you take these policies seriously, you won’t have any science at all. You’ll just have a toolkit of concepts and techniques for reliable design detection. That’s nice, but it doesn’t explain why all these designs should be treated as part of a common object of inquiry. Here you need some underlying laws and principles. This brings you back to proposing hypotheses about how the intelligent designer’s mind works. And then you’ll have science.

 

Even a simple concept like ‘irreducible complexity’ doesn’t really make sense except as a step towards a theory of the intelligence behind the design. Imagine a Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal of Behe’s concept: ‘Just because, say, a cell looks like it’s been purpose-built doesn’t mean that you can compare its parts to those of a mousetrap. That’s to take a superficial similarity and read into it way too much meaning. The cell’s apparent design could have been just as easily brought about by a combination of contingencies spread over a long stretch of time. Keep off the mechanistic metaphors, if you really want to understand how life works’.

 

My point here is that the Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal, however unjustified, is nevertheless right about one thing – namely, that Behe’s concept is not only about nature’s design but also the designing intelligence. For the Darwinist, to theorize both together begs the question against his position, which holds that the appearance of design need not implicate a designing intelligence. So it’s no surprise that Behe has been led to argue theodicy with Ken Miller. Yes, Behe is religious but his science already builds in the idea of a designing intelligence that we are trying to fathom at the same time we are trying to understand the design features of life.

 

One final thought: When militant Darwinists like Dawkins and Dennett call the teaching of religion ‘brainwashing’ that demands some sort of cerebral hygiene, they are mainly exercised about the claims of religion that explicitly tread on scientific ground. They get most of their rhetorical mileage from targeting Young Earth Creationists but it’s pretty clear that they also have ID in their sights. Perhaps the only virtue of these attacks is that they take the cognitive content of ID sufficiently seriously to realize that it’s incompatible with a strong naturalistic atheism. It would be too bad if avowed defenders of ID did not take the theory as seriously as its staunchest – and perhaps smartest – opponents do.

 

 

Comments
Bfast - 8 "If we have learned that the earth, life, and humanity, is old, we have disproved something about the designer." The Designer hasn't changed. The only thing that's been disproven is what someone said about the Designer. "If there is a single ancestor, then that single ancestor was created by no more than a single intelligence*." There is no reason for that conclusion. "Again, if there was a single big bang, either the big bang was a chance event, or the product of a single intelligence*." Again, it doesn't necessarily follow. Maybe fifty million beings put their minds together and created the big bang. I do agree that " there seems to be a lot that is already inferrable". I'd like to add a couple, actually, 3 things. Assuming that the Designer is also the Creator, then He is (relatively) infinitely more powerful and intelligent than we are. The third is that there is a gap between God and Man. I'd like to end with a thought here: Since mathematics are True, and God is True (the Supreme Reality we are discussing), does it not follow that mathematics derive from the Mind of God? Or man? And if you follow dgosse's line of reasoning, then plastic is "natural".Davem
January 13, 2009
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Timeaus, I appreciate the spirit of your original comment, which was, of course, intended to provide a meaningful response to Steve Fuller on a matter that was only peripherally related. to our current discussion. So, I will not belabor the point about omnipotence. Suffice it to say that, from a philosophical perspective, I have several more reasons for insisting on its importance and even its necessity, and I am sure that you can provide excellent counter arguments. But I should leave that for another day and return to the discussion about ID. I just wanted to make sure I understood your point. I suspect that we agree on about 99% of ID related issues anyway.StephenB
January 13, 2009
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StephenB (#46): You and I have both been trained, by 2,000 years of Christian thought, feeling, and culture to find non-omnipotent Gods inadequate. So I understand where you are coming from. Nonetheless, though I grant that there are theological problems with the notion of a demiurge, I don’t see the problem regarding final judgment that you do. First of all, I didn’t take away all the omnis. In fact, I left in place all the omnis except one: omnipotence. (By omnipotence, I mean the ability to create matter out of nothing and determine all its properties so that it will never be able to resist one’s will in the slightest. And I’m distinguishing omnipotence from omniscience, by which I mean knowledge of everything that has happened or will happen, and knowledge of the thoughts and feelings of human beings.) So my hypothetical demiurge is omniscient, and he’s also perfectly just. I don’t understand why God also needs to be omnipotent in order to be omniscient or perfectly just. Let us suppose that there is an afterlife, established by God, over which God has complete control, and that God grants or denies this afterlife on the basis of his perfect knowledge of what is in your soul, and his own perfect justice. What does it matter, then, whether God is unable, say, to create cells without simultaneously permitting cancer, due to some fundamental properties of uncreated matter? What does it matter if he was unable, for similar reasons, to stop the appendix from occasionally killing someone? Your spot in heaven would still be guaranteed by his omniscience and his justice. If this line of thought doesn’t work for you, try a human analogy. Let’s say you have been charged with a crime of which you are innocent. You are told that your case will be heard by one of two highly respected judges, both of whom you know to be supremely wise, utterly incorruptible, capable of seeing through all sophistical arguments put forward by lawyers from both sides, capable of discerning when witnesses are lying, and just in all their judgments. But one of these judges happens also to be Superman, who can bend steel in his bare hands and leap tall buildings in a single bound, whereas the other is a 98-pound weakling who had sand kicked in his face by all the bullies at school. I don’t think you believe that you would get a fairer judgment from the super-strong judge than from the weakling judge. So would you really care if your case was assigned to the judge who looks like Woody Allen rather than the one who looks like Charles Atlas? What I am saying is that a demiurge-like, non-omnipotent God could still be a good judge of all human beings, provided that he was all-wise and completely just. And if he were all-wise and completely just, and if he were also our creator and sustainer (even if he did not create matter itself), would this not be enough to incline us toward worshipping him? Of course, this is a side-issue. I’m not advocating that people should stop worshipping the omnipotent God and start worshipping some hypothetical demiurge. (Nor was Plato trying to start up any religion of the Demiurge.) My original point was that the Demiurge, as presented in Plato, is an intelligent designer (not a metaphor for Hesiodic naturalism, as Hume irresponsibly suggested); then I made the additional point that if you believe in a demiurge of some kind, the “problem of evil” disappears, because it is a problem only where there is an apparent logical contradiction, and there is no logical contradiction between the existence of evil and the existence of a non-omnipotent maker of the world. But I did not draw from the latter point the inference that we should abolish the omnipotent God in order to do away with the problem of evil. Belief in a non-omnipotent God poses other philosophical and theological problems, and switching to a demiurge might well turn out, from an intellectual point of view, to be the equivalent of leaping out of the frying pan into the fire. Indeed, I started on the subject of theodicy not to vindicate the idea of a demiurge, but only because Dr. Fuller had raised the connection between ID, theodicy, and varying notions of God, and I wanted clarification about where he was going with it. T.Timaeus
January 13, 2009
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Steve:Canyouspelleyeseaewearrahh2Beafourtune? nightnightDr. Time
January 13, 2009
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OK Timeaus, thanks for responding. For my part, I could worship only an omnipotent and omniscient creator. If our eternal fate rests in his hands, we are in big trouble if the "omni's" aren't there. Unless God understands and factors in all of our thoughts, words, deeds, and intentions, in conjunction with everyone else’s thoughts, words, deeds, and intentions---unless he considers all mitigating factors, including the biological, psychodynamic, environmental, and habitual influences that shaped our personality--- and unless he makes the calculation with a full awareness of every possible combination of consequences, we are not going to get a fair hearing. If God is not perfect in every way, then he cannot even know what is best for us in our present condition, much less can he temper justice with mercy in the right proportions at the moment of our final judgment. Take away the omni's and God is not God---he is simply a superhuman with a lot of power that may or may not be used in the right way. For my part, I would resent entrusting my fate to one who was compromised with limited knowledge about what constitutes a reasonable moral test, with limited power to administer that test in a fair way, and with limited capacity to judge the final results.StephenB
January 13, 2009
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It is a mistake to say "concluding "Design" when no known natural process could..." Design is concluded when we see an artifact that natural processes are demonstrably incapable of making. The first statement implies that the conclusion of Design is a conclusion from ignorance, whereas the traction for the design argument has come from an increase in knowledge. ScottAndrews #43 makes the point "No natural process can produce an automobile." but, in fact, if philosophical materialism is true, then natural process have designed the automobile. It is an incontrovertible fact that, if philosophical naturalism is true, then all events are part of a chain of material causes and subsequent events from beginning to end. That Henry Ford built an automobile in the early 20th C says nothing about Henry Ford and everything about the inventiveness of random mutation and natural selection. Given the closed cause and effect nature postualted by philosophical naturalism, Henry Ford could not have not designed an automobile. It is only if humans can step out of the causal chain and act independent of "nature" that they can design anything. therefore, the absurd becomes received wisdom; your automobile is just another example of the incredible ability of nature to create new adaptations. But then, if philosophical naturalism is true then I can't not think and write what I wrote above, we are all just little robots being driven by genes and memes. (Why is there always an implicit exception for the author of such absurdities?)dgosse
January 13, 2009
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JayM:
In fact, ID theory goes beyond this minimum by concluding “Design” only when no known natural process could have created the object under consideration. From that comes the implicit claim that not only does the designer exist, the designer does not use natural processes when designing.
No natural process can produce an automobile. That doesn't mean that no natural processes are used to build automobiles. It's not that the designer can't use a natural process. The designer just can't be one.ScottAndrews
January 13, 2009
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StephenB (#34): Yes, in Christian theology, there are copious justifications for the existence of evil, such as the ones you've given. I wasn't denying that such answers have been given; nor was I saying that any particular answer was wrong or inadequate. My point was that such justifications are only needed because, at least on a superficial inspection, it seems as if there is gratuitous evil in the world, given that it was created by an all-powerful, all-wise, all-good being. Another way of putting it is: Christianity by its nature invites criticism regarding the existence of evil. However, that doesn't mean that Christianity is unable to respond effectively to the criticism. So I don't think we are disagreeing. Yes, non-Christians also have to explain the world in terms of their schemes. But evil, as such, is less of a problem, since they haven't defined God in such a way that evil seems incongruous. Someone who believes in something like Plato's Demiurge, i.e., a less-than-omniopotent divine maker, does not have the problem of theodicy. The justice of a God of limited power would not be impugned by the existence of a certain amount of evil, any more than a judge who could not restrain a mob from trashing the courtroom would be deemed lest just merely because he lacked the power to stop them. You mentioned the inability of an "imperfect God" to set moral limits; but a demiurge-like God need not be imperfect in morality, justice, goodness, love, etc. He is imperfect only in power. Why would a shortage of power invalidate standards of conduct proclaimed by (or better, displayed by) such a God? As for the question of worship, if you're asking why a limited God should be worshipped, then the answer seems to me to be: you should worship a limited God for same things that you would worship an unlimited God for, if the limited God does those same things. If the limited God creates an orderly, beautiful universe, if the limited God brings us into existence, if the limited God provides for our sustenance, if the limited God is good and wise and just, and if you deem all of these things worthy of worship in the case of an omnipotent God, then why shouldn't they be worthy of worship in a limited God? Such a worship would not be idolatry, because idolatry is the worship of things that are made, and the limited God is not a thing which is made, but an intelligent Mind which existed prior to all making. If it should turn out to be the case that a limited God is all that there is, I would think that such a limited God would be eminently worthy of worship. T.Timaeus
January 13, 2009
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---- Jay M: "Claiming that ID theory doesn’t address the nature of the designer is therefore untenable." There are two possible claims that can be made: [A] ID cannot, in principle, say anything about the designer and never will or [B] ID cannot currently say anything about the designer because its methodology is not sufficiently developed. I, for one, am arguing for [B] The claim is tenable and demonstrable. Neither CSI nor IR can probe the essence or uncover the identity of the designer. Here is the irony: On the one hand, ID's critics complain because it's too NARROWLY defined, meaning that it cannot describe the designer's essence or uncover its identity; on the other hand, they claim that it It is too BROADLY defined, meaning that it cannot adequately measure CSI to their satisfaction. Does anyone else get the joke.StephenB
January 13, 2009
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I can picture drooling Darwinist’s from Wikipedia just waiting until ID posits who the designer is or what it maybe thinking. It will solidify ID more from their perspective, not ID’s. And it is the unbelievably misguided attempts like Dr Fuller's (now finding support from UD regs) that will provide them what they need. They are cheering. They intend to hang up the evidence ad infinitum.Upright BiPed
January 13, 2009
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"The first is that we have to assert at least the existence of a designer or the possible results become Chance, Known Processes, and Unknown Processes." To delimit chance and known processes with unknown processes is the point. ID doesn't start off with the assertion there is at least one designer. If that is the initial point then there is no point since its not science. ID first takes into account known processes (which is in fact mostly chance-based since that is what is taught isn't it?) as well as known processes about what "intelligence" has produced and produces everyday in terms of complex systems (but this only for putting objects on the table to be examined, since we are more familiar with them at the present ie: such as a bacerial flagellum) If known processes are quite incapable then unknown processes are left. As long as the greater unknown is being generated overtime ID is doing its job, which is, it had effectively detected a 'unknown' in each circumstance by applying existing known processes that supposedly explain biological functions. That is design detection "The second problem is that, simply by applying the Filter, we are implying that the designer does not use Chance and Known Processes to design" It is your fault you are putting the designer on ID's shoulders, not ID's. There seems to be a demand for the nature of the designer in the general public, it is absolutely ludicrous to think this demand can be supplied. Not to say that it can't be supplied in a non-scientific language where data is of no importance. I can picture drooling Darwinist's from Wikipedia just waiting until ID posits who the designer is or what it maybe thinking. It will solidify ID more from their perspective, not ID's.ab
January 13, 2009
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JayM, What is central? What ID says about the designer is that the designer can accomplish what chance and neccesity does not accomplish alone. End.Upright BiPed
January 13, 2009
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A pretend story:Before I was reborn and still in Heaven,I asked GOD if I could have the toughest job in all the universe that someone from Heaven could be granted by GOD.GOD said,GEE,no one has ever asked for that before. Every one else wants to be on a holiday in the most luxurious place in the universe for the rest of eternity and not even care how it came to bee. What makes you bee so opposite?You know I love you.Wouldn`t this wish proove to both of us just how much we both love each other? YES,I guess it would. I want to be taken beyond what I am supposed to be designed for,to die so to speak(human word)then be brought back to life,help me heal,then go on to the next hardest below that,and keep doing that until everything after that keeps getting easier and lessand less painful. WE will both be going over our limits,won`t we?You have to make me a promise,you have to force me to experience going over all the limits whether I can go on by myself or not until easy enough to do by myself comes along and I might be able to enjoy and understand why you do what you do,only when you want me to of course. I want you to give me your best shot.I want you to make all the choices with treats for the difficult times(death).I want to do it in a human form and be a human for all of eternity healthily,happily after difficult and death doesn`t happen to me any more.One more wish if I pass,GOD please let me get married to a woman who has also done the same. With that GOD granted this wish for both of them.With that they should know each other and know the truth.Poor them,ha?Dr. Time
January 13, 2009
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Upright BiPed @32:
So ‘unknown processes’ are procedurally okay if your conclusions support materialism, but an ‘unknown designer’ is a procedural show stopper for ID?
That wasn't my point, allow me to clarify what I meant. If ID theory makes no claims about the nature of the designer, then the Explanatory Filter's result of "Design" is fully equivalent to "Unknown Process." The meaning of the word "design" cannot be ascribed to the result "Design" in such a case. Therefore, to make the result "Design" meaningful, at a bare minimum the Explanatory Filter, and hence ID theory, must assert that the designer exists. In fact, ID theory goes beyond this minimum by concluding "Design" only when no known natural process could have created the object under consideration. From that comes the implicit claim that not only does the designer exist, the designer does not use natural processes when designing. The more I think about it, the more it seems that identifying design inherently provides information about the designer, making the nature of the designer a scientific question. Claiming that ID theory doesn't address the nature of the designer is therefore untenable. Again, bFast @8 made this argument very well. JJJayM
January 13, 2009
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Oops, I meant the electron of one "atom" bonds with.........StephenB
January 13, 2009
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Hi Timeaus: As you probably know, I admire your posts and appreciate the way you interact thoughtfully and courteously with others. Although I am in the Aristotelian camp, I find much to admire in the thought of Plato and celebrate the fact that both thought systems integrate well with the Christian framework. It is in that spirit that I ask about one comment that you made which I may well be interpreting the wrong way: You wrote: ---“If God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-wise, all-loving, etc., then evil is problematic: shouldn’t such a God have been able to make a world in which there was no evil, and wouldn’t such a God have wanted to make a world in which there is no evil? So Christianity, with its huge claims about God (omni-this and omni-that) invites criticisms of God’s justice and thus has to come up with a theodicy.” I am sure that I am telling you nothing new when I point out that, from the Christian viewpoint, God very well could have chosen to make a world in which there is no evil by simply limiting man’s free will and allowing him only good choices. No doubt you are also aware that, in the same theological context, God chose to extend free to a level that permits humans to commit evil acts. Again, in that context, humans are free to love God or not love God, which, as it turns out, would seem to be the only way a moral universe could be designed. How can the creature love the creator meaningfully without an equal opportunity to pull away? How can the creature love other creatures meaningfully without resisting the capacity to hate them? Or, to put it in proposition terms, “there is no charm in a “yes” unless a “no” is possible. Without the free will that has the potential to do harm, there would seem to be no potential for authentic love. If the creature bonds with God with the same necessity that an electron from one molecule bonds with another, morality would be a meaningless concept. On the other hand, if the creature can learn to love the giver of gifts, rather than the gifts themselves, even in spite of suffering (Job), there would seem to be a greater potential for noble behavior. Under the circumstances, God’s omnipotence, God’s justice, God’s mercy, and suffering, could only be judged in terms of what he wants to accomplish given the risks he has chosen to take. In other words, everything would turn on the final result. (Rewards in afterlife etc.) So, yes, Christianity does need to provide a rational defense for suffering, but non-Christianity also needs to provide a rational justification for positing another possible meaning in the universe. If, as the Bible suggests, an omnipotent God exists and created a universe of soul-making, which includes free will, suffering, and redemption, that could be one answer to the riddle of existence. That is, God allows bad things to happen because he can create a greater good and still maintain legitimate free will and authentic love. On the other hand, if God doesn’t exist, or is not omnipotent, (a Demiurge) that too requires some rational justification. How can an imperfect God ask for worship, set moral limits, or justify a universe without meaning. Or, if he can’t do those things, why is he even relevant? Keep in mind that, according to the Bible, the kind of world that everyone wants is precisely the one that was given. Happiness reigned with no hint of suffering, confusion, or undue toil. Man’s relationship with God was eminently satisfying precisely because the omnipotent God was so splendorous and loving. It seems reasonable that there should be some cost to offending a love so noble, and, that it what is alleged to have happened. Indeed, God himself paid a price for his own generosity and knew in advance that he was going to have to pay it. When does God get credit for that?StephenB
January 13, 2009
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To Timaeus, Again, my intention here is not to provide a full response. But nothing I'm saying implies that ID people need to agree on a common conception of God before they do science. Rather, 'God' should be treated as the name of a class of rather different theories that attempt to explain what all ID people agree as exhibiting design. Then, as one tries to make sense of new evidence in light of these different conceptions of God, some are bound to be better supported and others fall by the wayside. I'm simply imagining how the Rev. Thomas Bayes came up with the most widely used decision-making theorem based on probability theory.Steve Fuller
January 13, 2009
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JayM, Let me explain how I got to that conclusion. If we look at an object that may be designed, let’s take the bacterial flagellum just to be different, we have two problems with applying the Filter absent any information about a designer. The first is that we have to assert at least the existence of a designer or the possible results become Chance, Known Processes, and Unknown Processes. So 'unknown processes' are procedurally okay if your conclusions support materialism, but an ‘unknown designer’ is a procedural show stopper for ID? This is common ploy - apply to ID discussions what is not applied to discussions about materialistic science. Of course, the impetus is not to better understand ID, or its methods, or the design, or the designer itself for that matter. The goal is to hang up ID's scientific argument in a circular philosophical debate like the one (unfortunately) unfolding on UD.Upright BiPed
January 13, 2009
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ScottAndrews, Here is the info from Merriam Webster's Dictionary: the·od·i·cy Pronunciation: \th?-?ä-d?-s?\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural the·od·i·cies Etymology: modification of French théodicée, from théo- the- (from Latin theo-) + Greek dik? judgment, right Date: 1797 : defense of God's goodness and omnipotence in view of the existence of evil You're right about the definition of theodicy being a reconciliation of a good God, or Creator, or Intelligent Design, with evil in the world. It seems relevant to ID when you start to consider Natural Evil, which can be classified as acts of nature that produce evil things, such as Hurricane Katrina. Questions such as "Did the Intelligent Designer set up the forces of nature as such that they produce natural evil?" is, at least, one point at which ID and evil intersect. So the question of theodicy naturally follows. I can imagine that a complaint would be that the Intelligent Designer doesn't necessarily have to be God, in which case theodicy doesn't follow. But neither does the complaint of Natural Evil.Clive Hayden
January 13, 2009
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Another question for the demiurge lesser deity argument is that molecular design is dependent upon chemistry, especially of water and carbon. Henderson in 1923 argued that the possibility of life developing on earth was dependent on the improbable properties of water and carbon. L.J. Henderson (1913) The fitness of the environment Gloucester Mass. Smith In other words biological amino acid chemistry is not simply developed upon chemical properties, but is dependent upon and interwoven with the chemical properties in the first place. The idea that a demiurge created out of a pre existing chaos is surely a non starter when the creator would have had to have created the laws of physics and chemistry with biological life in mind.Andrew Sibley
January 13, 2009
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Dr. Fuller: Thanks for your further thoughts above. The third and fourth paragraphs of your post are especially lucid. I agree that the results of scientific inquiry can have a bearing on theology. But this brings me back to the point I raised in response to your your previous column (ID and the Science of God: Part II), a point to which you never replied. Theodicy, being the vindication of the justice of God in the face of evil, only comes up for theologies whose God is so understood as to make the existence of evil problematic. If God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-wise, all-loving, etc., then evil is problematic: shouldn't such a God have been able to make a world in which there was no evil, and wouldn't such a God have wanted to make a world in which there is no evil? So Christianity, with its huge claims about God (omni-this and omni-that) invites criticisms of God's justice and thus has to come up with a theodicy. But if you believe in something like the Demiurge of Plato's Timaeus, you require no theodicy. God is not omnipotent, but limited by pre-existent matter. He imposes design upon matter, but cannot realize his designs 100%. Therefore, imperfection and evil will exist. It is not that God does not want a perfect universe, but that he is unable to produce one. Now there may be problems which such a theology -- it does not explain why there is such a fundamental dualism between the Demiurge and matter -- but it has no need for theodicy. Now let's relate this to ID. ID claims to be able to detect design. But at the present stage of scientific knowledge, whether we are talking about biology or physics, our understanding of the design is insufficient to tell us what kind of designer we've got, an omnipotent one or one limited by the constraints of matter. So we cannot use ID to say whether the creator was the God of the Bible or the God of the Timaeus or some other kind of God. Yet, if I understand you correctly, you are urging ID people to adopt a common notion of God and a common theodicy, as an intellectual support for the project of design detection. I don't understand this. How can we adopt a common notion of the designer, when we are nowhere near a complete understanding of the design? How can we jump to theology when our scientific understanding of nature is so imperfect, and especially at a time like the present, when the whole biological paradigm is undergoing a radical revolution, as classical Darwinism is increasingly recognized as implausible by all the biologists who have the slightest mathematical or philosophical ability? It seems to me that jumping to theology at this point is premature. T.Timaeus
January 13, 2009
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I looked up "theodicy" in Wikipedia so that I could have a better handle on what this discussion is about. (I'm religious and I follow ID, but I'm not catching on.) It says that theodicy is about reconciling God with evil. (I'm sure that's a gross oversimplification. Or maybe it's wrong.) Then it lists a gazillion varying philosophies, all of which seem purely speculative, even for a religious person like myself, and also irrelevant to intelligent design. Am I looking in the wrong place? Is there a better starting point?ScottAndrews
January 13, 2009
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These responses are very interesting and I will provide a proper post in due course. However, I want to thank Rude for directing me to Dembski's piece on theodicy, which I didn't know about. But I'm not surprised. Anyone who takes ID seriously -- not only the 'D' but also the 'I' -- will need to confront theodicy at some point.Steve Fuller
January 13, 2009
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No one is asking you to leave Dr. Time. Comment as you would like.Clive Hayden
January 13, 2009
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Joseph @23:
If you can filter out chance and luck as an explanation, you infer design by default.
Wrong. Design also has criteria to be me.
Which criteria in particular? Would you agree with Dr. Fuller and bFast that this criteria provides information about the nature of the designer? JJJayM
January 13, 2009
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Clive Hayden:As part of schizophrenia`s dilusional and reality,I can`t tell what is real and real thoughts in my world.The way this cite is set up all questions are posted on side bar on all pages.I am a slow reader and have a bad back to sit very long at a screen.I don`t know anyone personally on these sites for sure,atleast talked to them face to face that I know of.Just trying to find out if any one under stands.No,no one in particular.Don`t know what sites they might suit if any.Felt editorial was doing this.Apologies.Suggestions if I am still welcome to site and if not ask editoritorial to ask me to leave.I have no problem with that either.Dr. Time
January 13, 2009
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If you can filter out chance and luck as an explanation, you infer design by default
Wrong. Design also has criteria to be met. But anyways Dr Time reminds me of Brad MacfallJoseph
January 13, 2009
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ab @20: Thanks for the quick response, but I'm afraid I'm still confused by your position. You're using Dr. Dembski's Explanatory Filter, but making the term "design" equivalent to "we don't know." Let me explain how I got to that conclusion. If we look at an object that may be designed, let's take the bacterial flagellum just to be different, we have two problems with applying the Filter absent any information about a designer. The first is that we have to assert at least the existence of a designer or the possible results become Chance, Known Processes, and Unknown Processes. The second problem is that, simply by applying the Filter, we are implying that the designer does not use Chance and Known Processes to design. That is a positive claim about the designer, which contradicts the assertion that we can't know anything about the designer from observing design. bFast's post @8 remains compelling. JJJayM
January 13, 2009
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"Having said all this, I, as a theistic Christian, do have a theodicy and hold certain opinions about the designer and his goals. Some of those opinions would never have been formed had there not been an ID movement founded upon the principles it espouses. So I feel a certain “debt of gratitude” to ID and would not wish to see their very successful strategy overturned by an impetuous desire to add theodicy to the mix."Upright BiPed
January 13, 2009
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Here is the formula: ID_processes = NOT(chance && luck processes) If you can filter out chance and luck as an explanation, you infer design by default and surprisingly, no need to infer the nature of the designer since ID science works within a predefined context and within that context a scope or resolution of parameters that it can investigate. Context is important in ID since IDst are looking for features in biological systems and not for the designers characteristics, entirely different context. For all we know the nature of the designer is someone who did the designing out of jealousy and perhaps it was pissed off while it did it. I'm a Christian and I don't like the idea of coupling scientific facts with pseudo-science.ab
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