Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hello, World: Toronto’s evolution stalwart and textbook writer Larry Moran is NOT a Darwinist

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Here, University of Toronto’s Larry Moran, blogger at Sandwalk (named after Darwin’s garden path) and famed (okay, okay, reputable) textbook author, commented at UncommonDescent on this story about Jonathan Wells’ new book on the junk DNA myth, complaining,

Denyse, you’ve promised in the past to stop using the term “Darwinism” to refer to all of evolution. What happened to that promise?In evolutionary biology, “Darwinism” refers to those who focus on adaptation as the almost exclusive mechanism of change. They are also called adapationists.

Moran calls himself a pluralist.

For the record, he said,

I’m a pluralist who promotes the importance of random genetic drift and accidental evolution. That’s perfectly consistent with junk DNA. I am not a Darwinist.

Yes, as Moran says, Darwinism means that natural selection, acting on random mutation, explains all (or most) of evolution. It is the ultimate free lunch. But I have found, by observation, strengthened by reading Suzan Mazur’s The Altenberg 16: An Expose of the Evolution Industry, that most of the science press thinks that all evolution really is Darwinism, to judge by the innumerable quoted explanations of research findings in strictly Darwinian terms. Some of it is plausible; others range from the ridiculous to the ridiculous . Some is merely “Come, let us worship the Beard.”

If Dr. Moran knows something the science writers don’t, I wish he would tell them, so they can start taking out the trash.

The trouble is that, nowadays, anyone  can be a Darwinist. You need to know something to be anything else.

Now, I have lots of respect for pluralism, but must in fairness note that the critical information is: Which approaches to evolution does the pluralist plan to tolerate?

Is it possible that, in the recesses of his study in the dark of the dawn, our Larry is working on a new theory of evolution that dismisses Darwinism?

Hey, I bet that’s it! Or anyway, I hope so.

I want an advance review copy.

I recommend the interesting exchanges between Moran and others in the combox, noting only that many of Darwin’s true believers, including genome mapper Francis Collins, did market junk DNA as support for their theories in the recent past. They must be allowed to withdraw from the business, if they choose – but not to efface all knowledge that they were ever in it.

If Dr. Moran ends up needing a can of Trolls Begone!, I could spare him one. So could a lot of people here.

Comments
Mr. Moran I respectfully disagree. There are plenty of scientists who, using good scientific principles and methods, end up making a personal decision of God being the best explanation. There is no battle between science and religion there. Mr. Moran, evidence is what it is regardless of how man interprets it. What some atheist scientists would prefer, is that it would be totally acceptable for atheists to begin their research under the predication that 'there is no God whatsoever,' but its wrong for a scientist who believes in God to say, "After viewing the evidence for design along with the evidence for purely natural, unguided processes I have found that there is reason to believe this is a theistic universe or that the evidence for an intelligent designer is equally valid." This kind of double standard is unacceptable. And besides, there is no battle between science and religion, since naturalists themselves appeal to a philosophical view that must be accepted on faith. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ime26rNGWDI Thank you for your comments, and best regards. The last word is yours, Mr. Moran.Bantay
March 26, 2011
March
03
Mar
26
26
2011
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PDT
Bantay says,
You should be honest and admit, on record, publicly, that there is no religious premise to ID, and maybe a more relaxed, productive dialogue can take place.
This is a battle between science and religion. Stop pretending it isn't. It makes you look silly.Larry Moran
March 26, 2011
March
03
Mar
26
26
2011
04:17 AM
4
04
17
AM
PDT
Mr. Moran, you say here "Are you honestly trying to tell me that this has nothing to do with religion?" Darwinism has to do with religion to, in that it has religious implications. Is that a reasonable basis to deny Darwinist teachings in taxpayer funded school classrooms? You also say here "It’s just an amazing coincidence that the legislators introducing these bills and promoting ID happen to be very religious, right? It’s equally amazing that the ID leadership just happens to be composed almost exclusively of devoutly religious men." Completely fallacious. A background or personal belief does not make a person's claim necessarily true or false. Rather, it should not be a surprise that a scientific methodology of design detection leading to a hypothesis that is at least accommodating to a theist world view would be headed by theists. What you don't understand, is that there is nothing inherently wrong with that. The implications of ID being true may offend your atheist predilections, but under the circumstances of there not being a shred of evidence against the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, you are left with a faith position yourself, called naturalism.Bantay
March 26, 2011
March
03
Mar
26
26
2011
12:32 AM
12
12
32
AM
PDT
Mr. Moran You say here "I don’t know any such thing and neither did the Dover Pennsylvania school board. " Listen, if your best argument against design is an appeal to a low level court decision by a 2nd rate judge who was unqualified to rule on such matters and who basically copied (including the errors) from an ACLU document presented to him before the end of the proceedings, then obviously the scientific case for ID remains, even if a civil case prevailed. You say here "You guys should concentrate on making truthful statements." The truth is, there is no religious premise to ID itself and you know it very well. If ID did have a religious premise, then it would be based on some religious text or religious doctrine. Creationism for example, depends on and is based on the Bible's creation narrative. ID has no religious text as its foundation. For somebody who is so concerned about truth, I find it an astonishing double standard in your choice of words to describe ID as "intelligent design creationism". You should be honest and admit, on record, publicly, that there is no religious premise to ID, and maybe a more relaxed, productive dialogue can take place. You say here "Popularity, by itself, is not a good indicator of whether an idea is right or wrong." We agree on this. But I did not make an argument from popularity, but merely pointed out a growing trend in evidences for design that cannot reasonably be accounted for by undirected, natural causes, while there has not been any new evidence for undirected, natural causes that could not also be accounted for by design. In my opinion, you're just not in a position to smugly call ID supporters "IDiots". In fact, you're better off breaking ranks while you still can.Bantay
March 26, 2011
March
03
Mar
26
26
2011
12:03 AM
12
12
03
AM
PDT
myname at 44: David Berlinski is not a proponent of intelligent design, but he travels with the herd. That's not unusual these days. Jeffrey M. Schwartz is a Christian. No, really, I know the guy and he IS a Christian. So far as I know, comments are NOT closed here, but there is a persistent glitch in the system that I must write to the tech about. I know how to get around it but I am a mod, and that is not a solution. The rule is that we close comments after thirty days.O'Leary
March 25, 2011
March
03
Mar
25
25
2011
07:35 PM
7
07
35
PM
PDT
So, for the time being, the only person I know who could be remotely thought of as a proponent of Intelligent Design who is not a theist is David Berlinski.
The other person sometimes mentioned is Jeffrey M. Schwartz a buddhist.myname
March 25, 2011
March
03
Mar
25
25
2011
12:50 AM
12
12
50
AM
PDT
Bantay says,
And there seems to be a marked increase in a design perspective in at least some of the sciences and in pop culture.
Popularity, by itself, is not a good indicator of whether an idea is right or wrong. However, if you are going to invoke it you should at least get your facts right. There hasn't been any significant change in the Muslim world, as far as I know, and I don't think Hindu or other Asian societies are seeing an increase in creationism. What we do know is that in Western industrialized nations the populations are turning away from religion and away from belief in God. In some European countries the number of non-believers is getting close to a majority and in Canada (my country) that percentage is hovering around 20%. The trend is less obvious in the USA but it's till there. Your perception is false. And it's ridiculously false if you think it applies to the sciences. (Even if you restrict yourself to America.) You guys should concentrate on making truthful statements. If you do that we might stop referring to you as IDiots. Not holding my breath ....Larry Moran
March 24, 2011
March
03
Mar
24
24
2011
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
Bantay says,
think Mr. Moran knows that ID has no religious premise, does not depend on any religious text.
I don't know any such thing and neither did the Dover Pennsylvania school board. The Discovery Institute and the ID movement are behind all kinds of bills that are being introduced into state legislatures in the USA. Are you honestly trying to tell me that this has nothing to do with religion? It's just an amazing coincidence that the legislators introducing these bills and promoting ID happen to be very religious, right? It's equally amazing that the ID leadership just happens to be composed almost exclusively of devoutly religious men. I bet you're very puzzled about this coincidence if you think that ID has no religious premise. We would take you a lot more seriously if you stopped playing games and started being as honest as Phillip Johnson. He knows that the battle is between science and religion or, as he puts it, between materialism and creationism. And in response to an article by Richard Lewontin, he writes (in Evolution as Dogma: The Establishment of Naturalism),
I remind the reader that to Lewontin and myself, a "creationist" is not necessarily a biblical literalist, but rather any person who beleives that God creates.
BTW, Bantay, are you an atheist? I didn't think so.Larry Moran
March 24, 2011
March
03
Mar
24
24
2011
01:32 PM
1
01
32
PM
PDT
Bantay says,
With statements like this, obviously he is just being frivolous. And did you think we would not notice your evasion of the mention of atheist Bradley Monton being an ID defender?
I didn't mention Bradley Monton because I had never heard of him. Now I've done a bit of seaching and I found his website. Apparently he wrote a book called, Seeking God in Science: An Atheist Defends Intelligent Design. Monton proudly displays the quotes from people who have read his book. Check out his website. Here's two of the interesting quotes ...
Monton does not defend 'intelligent design' as true -- he thinks it is most likely false. Instead, he defends it as a hypothesis worth taking seriously. John T. Roberts
As an atheist, he defends ID not because he thinks it is true. Rather, he shows how it raises important questions and how many critics, in their enthusiasm to kill the baby in the cradle, are short-circuiting a discussion that needs to happen. William Dembski
So, for the time being, the only person I know who could be remotely thought of as a proponent of Intelligent Design who is not a theist is David Berlinski. Can anyone supply me with a quotation where he explicitly identifies himself as a believer in intelligent design? Who does he identify as the designer?Larry Moran
March 24, 2011
March
03
Mar
24
24
2011
12:27 PM
12
12
27
PM
PDT
The delineation argument is not that convincing. Due to the way Darwinism is frequently defined by ID proponents and considering the ID position that the design could have been implemented by evolution you can not really call people like Ken Miller, Francisco Ayala or Simon Conway Morris Darwinists. Rather you would need to call them to some extend IDists. With respect to calling people Creationists or Intelligent Design Creationists one could argue doing this for delineation reasons. ID entails such a broad spectrum of ideas including some aspects of theistic evolution and directed panspermia, that to argue against the ID position would be inaccurate and thus necessitate to narrow down whose argument you address.myname
March 24, 2011
March
03
Mar
24
24
2011
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
Mr. Moran says "I recognize at least one non-creationist (David Berlinski) who allies himself with Intelligent Design Creationism.". With statements like this, obviously he is just being frivolous. And did you think we would not notice your evasion of the mention of atheist Bradley Monton being an ID defender? I think Mr. Moran knows that ID has no religious premise, does not depend on any religious text. Thus, his use of the term "Intelligent Design Creationism" is only to keep the pot stirred. That's okay Mr. Moran. I have not heard of any new data showing an increase of support for chance, undirected natural causes...at least you have not presented any. And there seems to be a marked increase in a design perspective in at least some of the sciences and in pop culture. So if the best you have to offer on the side of the science you supposedly represent is frivolous, inflammatory remarks, then the debate was over a long time ago. Paley won.Bantay
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
06:35 PM
6
06
35
PM
PDT
As I explained to Dr. Moran on another thread, we define Darwinists or Neo-Darwinists as those who posit an unguided or undirected evolutionary process in order to distinguish them from those who posit a directed or guided evolutionary process. As such, Darwinists do not cease to be Darwinists simply because they are having an intramural squabble about junk DNA any more that ID proponents cease to be ID proponents because they are having an intramural squabble about CSI. So Dr. Moran’s objection is irrelevant. ID = directed macro evolution or no macro evolution at all Darwinism = undirected macro evolution Christian Darwinism = directed evolution that wasn’t really directed. (Insane? Yes. But that’s their gig. ) Now why are these definitions important? Well, we must remember that Darwinists survive largely by confusing the public with the lie that ID advocates are “anti-evolution.” Similarly, Christian Darwinists, who often make the same charge, survive largely by promoting the lie that Darwinism (undirected evolution) is compatible with the Christian Bible. Since ID disputes the unwarranted and extravagant claims of Darwinism, we are told, it follows that ID also disdains evolution and science. Naturally, the only rational response to such a lie is to tell the truth: ID is not anti-evolution; ID is anti-Darwinism. ID is not against science; ID is against materialistic metaphysics posing as science. Take away the word “Darwinist” or “Darwinism” and we cannot defend ourselves against those lies. On the other hand, Darwinists use the word ID Creationist not to clarify but to obfuscate. In keeping with that point, they make the anti-historical claim popularized by the dim-witted Barbara Forrest, namely, that ID “comes out” of Creationism. Dr. Moran tried to make that dog hunt on another thread. Anyone who believes this nonsense should consult our FAQ to discover the parallel history of both movements. I have never known a Darwinist who visited this site that bothered to do his or her homework on this matter. Indeed, I have never met a Darwinst who would respond to my correctives even after I provided the relevant historical references. Dr. Moran has offered us a deal. He will stop making false claims about ID if we will stop telling the truth about Darwinists. I think I will pass on that one.StephenB
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
02:45 PM
2
02
45
PM
PDT
Larry at 36. Actually, yes. Read his book. He talks about the tremendous possibility of an omnipotent force plopping down It's magesty right at the point where the two domains of science (the large and the small) do not connect. Of course, he also talks about smug biologists ideologues, like you, groping each other in the dark as they pretend to know more than they do. ;)Upright BiPed
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
02:44 PM
2
02
44
PM
PDT
Bantay asks,
Would you be willing to admit now that not all ID proponents are creationists?
I recognize at least one non-creationist (David Berlinski) who allies himself with Intelligent Design Creationism. Berlinksi is a fierce—and irrational— critic of evolution but I've never heard him talk about an intelligent designer, have you?Larry Moran
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT
Larry Moran [31]: Some of you might be interested in hearing what David Berlinski has to say about insults and name calling. Larry Moran [34]: I’m not complaining about insults. I like the banter. Yeah, Larry, I like to point out the hypocrisy, too.PaV
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
PaV says,
Do you call IDers “IDiots” and then complain about insults?
I'm not complaining about insults. I like the banter. I sometimes like to point out hypocrisy but that's not the same thing. It's also a lot of fun to yank your chains from time to time but after a while it gets boring because the result is so predictable.Larry Moran
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
02:06 PM
2
02
06
PM
PDT
Larry: Do you call IDers "IDiots" and then complain about insults? No one wants to insult you. However, why is it that you got to be in charge of what words are to be used and why? You want to tell us how you want to be called, and then you want to call us whatever you like. This kind of hypocrisy is usually the tried and true currency of liberals. Have I hit the nail on the head? Or have I only insulted you by calling you a liberal?PaV
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
01:54 PM
1
01
54
PM
PDT
He once told me he thought the Insult was a bit of lost art. That would be an indication that he thinks most people don't do it very well. Larry, you ain't no Berlinski.Upright BiPed
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
01:28 PM
1
01
28
PM
PDT
Some of you might be interested in hearing what David Berlinski has to say about insults and name calling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnjnIwDkN0oLarry Moran
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PDT
Mr Moran I did not use the term "Darwinist" in the pejorative sense to describe all highly educated bullies, only "some" (of which you are in their number). However, you seem to use the term "creationist" in a sweeping, generalized way to describe all ID supporters, which is simply false. I have already provided a couple named examples demonstrating that some ID supporters are non-Christian, non-creationist, agnostic and even atheist. Would you be willing to admit now that not all ID proponents are creationists?Bantay
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
12:51 PM
12
12
51
PM
PDT
Denyse says,
acting as mod: I just had to remove another comment. Let’s keep it civil, shall we?
Oh dear. Was it another one of those evil Darwinists?Larry Moran
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
12:28 PM
12
12
28
PM
PDT
Bantay says,
You’ve stepped up to the plate, and quoted a Wiki article that in a very biased way misrepresents the term “Darwinist” as a pejorative used only by religious people, when in fact it is the most accurate way to describe some people who in a religious fervor, hold dogmatically to principles of Darwinist evolution, especially when it has also led some of them to atheism. If you have seen the documentary “Expelled”, and I think you have, then you know of whom I am referring.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm glad to hear that you don't use the word "Darwinist" in a pejorative, insulting way! :-) Do you have any idea how silly you look when you say things like that? I forgot who it was who first quoted from the Wikipedia article. Was it one of those Darwinists in some religious atheist fervor?Larry Moran
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
12:26 PM
12
12
26
PM
PDT
acting as mod: I just had to remove another comment. Let's keep it civil, shall we?O'Leary
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PDT
Mr Moran I applaud your response. You've stepped up to the plate, and quoted a Wiki article that in a very biased way misrepresents the term "Darwinist" as a pejorative used only by religious people, when in fact it is the most accurate way to describe some people who in a religious fervor, hold dogmatically to principles of Darwinist evolution, especially when it has also led some of them to atheism. If you have seen the documentary "Expelled", and I think you have, then you know of whom I am referring. Whether or not you consider yourself a Darwinist I think is not as important as understanding why it is so important to you to distance yourself from the term. I think it's like this. When Darwinism was all the rage, then being called a "Darwinist" was chic. Now that Darwinism is in its death throes in both higher academia and increasingly in the popular media, now all of a sudden it's not so cool to be a Darwinist. In fact, you'd be better to join those who have been so successful in introducing a compelling design-theoretic into mainstream science and popular culture than keeping up unproductive vitriol. In the best interest of future discourse, don't you think it is worthwhile to stop throwing labels around where they aren't appropriate? I mean, calling all IDers "creationists" is like calling an atheist like Bradley Monton an ID defender. Wait! He is an ID defender! Or perhaps like calling secular Jew and agnostic D. Berlinski...But wait! He is a secular Jew and agnostic, and also an ID proponent. I can think of a few more non-Christian and non-creationist ID proponents but I think I've made my point. You seem to welcome stirring the pot more than having a civil dialogue, perhaps counting on your professional accomplishments as a weight to throw around...kinda like being a bully?. In my opinion, your professional resume is worthless if you don't communicate your ideas civilly. Or we can keep the pot stirred and it will just get more public attention to the issues pertaining to the controversy over evolution and ID. It's up to you. Thank you for your consideration.Bantay
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
09:48 AM
9
09
48
AM
PDT
Dr. Moran, I'm surprised that you could quote that wikipedia passage and not notice the bias dripping from it.I don't see how anyone can maintain the objectivity of wikipedia after that.Collin
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
Dr Moran: Pardon a late intervention. I have not been part of this thread, but I am sorry, too much of the above smacks of an attempt at the rhetoric of immoral equivalency on your part. When, in fact the blatant abusive and slanderous namecalling is largely on the part of your party; as may be abundantly shown all over the Internet. Ever since c 1930's, Darwinism has routinely been used to refer to adherence to the Neo-Darwinian synthesis and related ideas; without any necessary aura of pejoration. That is very different from routinely used terms of your party: "IDiot," "Dumbsky," "Intelligent Design Creationism," "Fundamentalist" and the like. These have not only been ROUTINELY used abusively and/or slanderously, but they have been used to unjustifiably bust careers, to bias discussion away from addressing the merits of matters to polarising red herrings led away to strawman caricatures laced with ad homninems and set alight through incendiary remarks, and worse. They have even been used to try to justify the question-begging attempted redefintion of science as applied evolutionary materialism, playing mind-bending games with a generation of children in school. In fact, on fair comment: too much of the above (and earlier) smacks of enabling behaviour for that abuse and slander. Please, stop it. Good day, sir. GEM of TKI PS: If you still do not know the difference between design thought and creationist thought, I suggest the first several remarks in the UD weak argument correctives, top right this and every UD page.kairosfocus
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
Joseph, Yes, let's use EvoTard unless we stop hearing IDiot from Moran. Otherwise, let's use my term "genetic drifter."Collin
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
EvoTard is a pejorative word use to describe those who think life is an accidental emergence from some primordial ooze and accidental genetic changes account for the observed diversity. That said a Darwinist is someone like Dawkins (natural selection is a designer mimic) and you, Larry, would be more like and neo-darwinist/ modern synthesist (perhaps with a personal twist).Joseph
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
08:44 AM
8
08
44
AM
PDT
Dr. Moran, Sorry, I can't take that deal because I am a creationist. But David Berlinski and Michael Behe are not. I guess I don't care as much about the "creationist" label as I do about the "IDiot" label. I do not see the problem with calling you a Darwinist when you believe that Darwin's mechanisms played a major role in evolution. BUT I will try to call you a "genetic drifter" from now on instead. :)Collin
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
08:39 AM
8
08
39
AM
PDT
Bantay asks,
Mr. Moran, what is your explanation for this?
My explanation is that Richard Dawkins is, in fact, a Darwinist, just as he claims. Here's the money quote from the Wikipedia article you apparently read.
However, Darwinism is also used neutrally within the scientific community to distinguish modern evolutionary theories from those first proposed by Darwin, as well as by historians to differentiate it from other evolutionary theories from around the same period. For example, Darwinism may be used to refer to Darwin's proposed mechanism of natural selection, in comparison to more recent mechanisms such as genetic drift and gene flow. It may also refer specifically to the role of Charles Darwin as opposed to others in the history of evolutionary thought — particularly contrasting Darwin's results with those of earlier theories such as Lamarckism or later ones such as the modern synthesis.
I'm very interested in the parts of evolution that Darwin knew nothing about. In that sense I'm closer to those who emphasize random genetic drift and other, more modern, forms of evolutionary theory. I never said that there was no such thing as a Darwinist (Darwinian). I said that many evolutionary biologists would not refer to themselves as Darwinist. This is especially true to those who support the concept of lots of junk DNA in our genome. Darwinians tend to oppose that concept. Let's not be naive about this discussion. Here's another quotation from that Wikipedia article.
Creationists use the term Darwinism, often pejoratively, to imply that the theory has been held as true only by Darwin and a core group of his followers, whom they cast as dogmatic and inflexible in their belief.[22] Casting evolution as a doctrine or belief, as well as a pseudo-religious ideology like Marxism,[23] bolsters religiously motivated political arguments to mandate equal time for the teaching of creationism in public schools.
Larry Moran
March 23, 2011
March
03
Mar
23
23
2011
07:50 AM
7
07
50
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply