Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Do we imagine we see patterns in nature where there are none?

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That is called cherrypicking patterns. A common argument against design in nature is that humans randomly evolved to see patterns where there are none. Many a Darwinian airhead advances such received wisdom at the usual bongfests.

He can be fairly sure that few bong-ees are going to point out the obvious: We evolved to see patterns that are there, for our own best interests. We are sometimes mistaken, but disparaging the seeking of patterns supported by evidence is hardly a solution.

Most often the patterns we see are there. Indeed, more people come to grief by not noticing than by noticing them. (“But I thought this would be an exception, you see…” or “But I never thought it would happen to me… ”)

Darwin’s followers themselves are constantly attempting to impose patterns in the fossil record, and watching them disintegrate in the light of evidence.

Casey Luskin notes that:

cladistics and other phylogenetics methods do not demonstrate common ancestry; they assume it. In other words, these methods don’t test whether all organisms fit into a nested hierarchy (i.e., phylogenetic tree). Rather, evolutionary systematics assumes that common ancestry is true and therefore all organisms belong within a nested hierarchy, and then it uses methods to force-fit any organism into the tree, even if that organisms has traits that don’t fit neatly within the tree.

Common ancestry, therefore, is a starting assumption about the data — not a conclusion from it. Another key lesson is this: just because you see evolutionary biologists creating an impressive-looking phylogenetic tree doesn’t mean that all of the organisms or their traits shown within that tree fit neatly into a nested hierarchy (i.e., a tree structure). One could cite many examples of organisms that don’t fit cleanly into a tree. Here are a few:

Sahelanthropus tchadensis is widely touted as a human ancestor that lived about 6-7 million years ago, sometime very soon after the supposed split between the human line and the chimp line. But it’s rarely mentioned that this specimen doesn’t fit into the standard hominin tree at all.

In any case, an evolutionary biologist could decide to group phyla according to early developmental processes, or according to symmetry, and that’s fine. If you weight one trait heavily, you’ll get one tree. But switch that weight to another trait and you’ll get another, conflicting tree. Either way, when you use one character set to create your tree, then the other character set is no longer distributed in a treelike fashion, and vice versa. That’s a major problem. More.

But they can get away with scuffing out serious discussion of genuine problems, questions, and puzzles to the extent that everyone “knows” that Darwinism is true. (“The debate is OVER, etc.”)

One of the serious harms done by court and other judgments demanding the teaching of “evolution” (that is, Darwinism) in the schools is that it helps raise generations not accustomed to asking intelligent questions when the data don’t fit. From Head Teacher Troll:

When the pattern doesn’t work, there is no pattern anyway, you see. Only ID people look for patterns… But now, if we can just tweak this, and then that, we could get our pattern to fit… You! You there! I can tell that you are thinking Wrong Thoughts! Stop thinking now!

Don’t believe me? See the Darwin in the schools lobby hard at work.

Rob Sheldon writes to say, re the claim about detecting patterns that aren’t there:

If all that is meant by this statement, is that people have an unusual gift to see teleology when mathematical algorithms cannot, then this is a truism that a man can be proud of.

But if this is a statement that only mathematical algorithms are justified in finding patterns, then I would have disagree, and ask if a computer made that judgment as well?

Or if this is a statement that you can fool people by claiming to find patterns that aren’t there, then I would say you are a naive Wall Street investor who has learned his first lesson.

The apparent pattern in the clouds may not be there; the apparent pattern in biotechnology stocks may be there after all.

ID is concerned not with finding patterns, which obviously exist in the mathematics of nature, (consider fractals or the golden ratio). Rather, ID studies patterns that look like they were generated by intelligence. A mere pattern endlessly repeats. A thought-out pattern stops at a point where purpose is detectible.  See the CSI
formulation of ID
.

This may be as good a place as any to note that I (O’Leary for News) will shortly be starting a series, “Talk to the Fossils,” at Evolution News & Views that talks about what we really know about situations where evolution does occur. What patterns do we really see?

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Mung 122 Its interesting - the concept of person was refined and distinguished through theology (building on metaphysics). There is no distinction between nature and person within materialism It's illusory. In fact, the term 'human nature' is meaningless in that context. How does a materialist reference (or 'find') what is a 'person'? What's the scientific evidence for it? The normal response is just to express outrage. "You're saying atheists aren't persons?!?!" No, we're asking you to think about it and to try to understand. Rosenberg explains it quite well in #96. Nobody has wanted to deal with that yet.Silver Asiatic
June 27, 2015
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goodusername: Is there a different view that can? If so, how?
The short answer is: any metaphysics that—unlike materialism—posits persons as foundational to reality.Box
June 27, 2015
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goodusername: Is there a different view that can? If so, how? Yes. A view that is grounded in personhood itself by establishing that personhood is by participation. God in three persons, blessed Trinity. That's how.Mung
June 26, 2015
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I’m pointing out that a materialist cannot ground personhood.
Is there a different view that can? If so, how?goodusername
June 26, 2015
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Carpathaian -- athropic: I mean, why take it personally? ---------------------------------------- Because that’s the way it was meant. You can either address the message or the messenger. It appears that ID targets the messenger when it can’t handle the message. ------------------------------------------ No fair pretending you have no sense of humor, Carp. I'm sure you really do! After all, you are a person, despite embracing a philosophy that denies it.anthropic
June 26, 2015
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Carpathian: Show me one ID argument that at its core does not contain the assertion that non-ID evolution is improbable. What on earth is non-ID evolution? And what are you going on about? Even evolutionists admit evolution is improbable.Mung
June 26, 2015
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Carpathian is not a materialist. He believes in the immaterial OSI model in which only the physical layer is actually physical. Right Carpathian?Mung
June 26, 2015
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"It appears that ID targets the messenger..." Oh sure. We target the low hanging fruits first: Dumb Progs. Andrewasauber
June 26, 2015
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Carpathian,
Box: I’m pointing out that a materialist cannot ground personhood.
Carpathian: That makes no sense.
Indeed. I agree. However it is something that materialists have to deal with. It follows logically from metaphysical materialism: if particles in motion are all that exist, then there are no persons. See for instance the quote from A.Rosenberg's book at post #96.
Carpathian: I feel pain regardless of whether I can “ground the concept of pain”.
Forget about pain, let's talk about the "I" who is experiencing pain. Rosenberg — a consistent materialist — will tell you that your "I" (your first-person point of view) is an illusion. Read the quote at #96.Box
June 26, 2015
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Carpathian, when you have a worldview that has trouble grounding mind, morals and personhood on its core premises, that worldview -- materialism -- is looking at self referential absurdity. Again, Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]
Saying I recognise myself to be a person but holding a worldview hopelessly unable to ground that, is to imply a factually inadequate worldview. Worse, the task of grounding is rational, so trouble with grounding mind leads to self-referential incoherence for materialism. Beyond, there is amorality, which leads to the absurdity, might and manipulation make "right." Materialism is in deep trouble. KFkairosfocus
June 26, 2015
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Carpathian:
There is no science that supports ID.
Of course there is. You wouldn't know as you don't know jack about science.
There is no argument that supports ID as every single one refers to the improbability of non-ID evolution.
There are plenty of arguments that support ID and not one that supports unguided evolution. Both evolutionary and genetic algorithms model guided/ intelligent design evolution. Unguided evolution can't be modeled.
Show me one ID argument that at its core does not contain the assertion that non-ID evolution is improbable.
Umm science demands that we eliminate necessity and chance before considering design. So all design arguments have to dispense with that. As I said, you don't know jack about science.
Show me a positive ID argument.
"Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.”- Dr Behe ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92):
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
There you have it- to falsify Intelligent Design all one has to do is demonstrate that natural selection can produce irreducibly complex biological systems. As Dr Behe said:
Now, one can’t have it both ways. One can’t say both that ID is unfalsifiable (or untestable) and that there is evidence against it. Either it is unfalsifiable and floats serenely beyond experimental reproach, or it can be criticized on the basis of our observations and is therefore testable. The fact that critical reviewers advance scientific arguments against ID (whether successfully or not) shows that intelligent design is indeed falsifiable. In fact, my argument for intelligent design is open to direct experimental rebuttal. Here is a thought experiment that makes the point clear. In Darwin’s Black Box (Behe 1996) I claimed that the bacterial flagellum was irreducibly complex and so required deliberate intelligent design. The flip side of this claim is that the flagellum can’t be produced by natural selection acting on random mutation, or any other unintelligent process. To falsify such a claim, a scientist could go into the laboratory, place a bacterial species lacking a flagellum under some selective pressure (for mobility, say), grow it for ten thousand generations, and see if a flagellum--or any equally complex system--was produced. If that happened, my claims would be neatly disproven.(1) How about Professor Coyne’s concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design. Let’s turn the tables and ask, how could one falsify the claim that, say, the bacterial flagellum was produced by Darwinian processes?
I am sure all of that will be lost on you.
Show me a specification that existed before a life-form was “designed”.
Why is that a requirement? Show me a specification that existed of Stonehenge before it was built. Do you think they just placed the stones willy-nilly?Virgil Cain
June 26, 2015
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Box:
Kindly, stop the nonsense. I’m not saying that materialists are less persons than anyone else. I’m pointing out that a materialist cannot ground personhood.
That makes no sense. I feel pain regardless of whether I can "ground the concept of pain". ID is wrong or it isn't, regardless of the worldview of the participants involved in the debate.Carpathian
June 26, 2015
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anthropic:
I mean, why take it personally?
Because that's the way it was meant. You can either address the message or the messenger. It appears that ID targets the messenger when it can't handle the message.Carpathian
June 26, 2015
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anthropic:
Hmmm… It really is a head-scatcher why materialists are offended when someone points out that their own worldview precludes their status as persons.
That makes as much sense as saying someone's worldview precludes their acceptance of the existence of pain.Carpathian
June 26, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
It takes faith to be a materialist so they are religious. There isn’t any science that supports materialism.
There is no science that supports ID. There is no argument that supports ID as every single one refers to the improbability of non-ID evolution. Show me one ID argument that at its core does not contain the assertion that non-ID evolution is improbable. Show me a positive ID argument. Show me a specification that existed before a life-form was "designed".Carpathian
June 26, 2015
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Hmmm... It really is a head-scatcher why materialists are offended when someone points out that their own worldview precludes their status as persons. I mean, why take it personally?anthropic
June 25, 2015
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WD400 (#105) I don’t think it’s a personal attack. I haven’t told you what my religious beliefs are and don’t find discussions about region very interesting.
Well, thank you for clarifying, because in post #99 ....
WD400 (#99): OK then Box, i certainly won’t be wasting any more of my time talking to you then.
.... you come across as offended.
WD400: I just think you are deranged if you really think that only non-materialists can refer to people as people.
Consistent materialists can refer to people as people—as long as by that they mean something like 'happenstantial collection of particles in motion'—but not as persons (see #96).Box
June 25, 2015
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Box @ 104: Every time your opponent responds to your argument by pretending you said something you plainly did not say, that is a sure sign they've got nothin'. You win.Barry Arrington
June 25, 2015
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Carpathian:
Materialists are no less “persons” than religious people are.
It takes faith to be a materialist so they are religious. There isn't any science that supports materialism.Virgil Cain
June 25, 2015
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I don't think it's a personal attack. I haven't told you what my religious beliefs are and don't find discussions about region very interesting. I just think you are deranged if you really think that only non-materialists can refer to people as people. More to the point, it's indicative of a tribalistic position that makes genuine discussion pointless. That being the case I won't bother.wd400
June 25, 2015
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Carpathian, WD400 transparent attempt to side-step the enormous problems, which follow from the fact that materialism cannot provide a basis for the existence of a person (see #96), by interpreting it as a personal attack, seems to appeal to you. Why are you willing to join WD400’s distortion? It is not a personal attack to point out that materialism cannot provide a basis for the existence of a person.
Carpathian: If one is religious, then he is a messenger to be listened to, on the other hand if one is not religious, his message can be dismissed. (…) Materialists are no less “persons” than religious people are.
Kindly, stop the nonsense. I’m not saying that materialists are less persons than anyone else. I’m pointing out that a materialist cannot ground personhood.Box
June 25, 2015
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Box, There is a link between IDists and a separate mind/brain architecture which leads to the materialist/non-materialist fallacy. Materialists are no less "persons" than religious people are. I see a tribal division where viewpoints from the non-religious are dismissed solely due to their source. This is what I see you doing now. There is no science backing up your point of view.Carpathian
June 25, 2015
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Carpathian #101, There is no obvious link between ID and the fact that materialism cannot provide a basis for “person”.Box
June 25, 2015
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Box:
WD400, My question to you was “are you person?” Obviously, materialism offers no basis for “person”.
I think this clearly shows that ID is not about the "message" as much as it is about the "messenger". If one is religious, then he is a messenger to be listened to, on the other hand if one is not religious, his message can be dismissed. This makes debates easy to resolve since the "message", e.g. science in this case, is irrelevant.Carpathian
June 25, 2015
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WD400 #99, because materialism cannot provide a basis for "person", you certainly won't be wasting any more of your time talking to me?Box
June 25, 2015
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OK then Box, i certainly won't be wasting any more of my time talking to you then.wd400
June 25, 2015
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Box:
It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak.
Why do you think you need an external "purpose" to give your life meaning? Why do you think you need a soul that is separate from your body?Carpathian
June 25, 2015
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"Obviously, materialism offers no basis for “person”. Ah yes, but it does go hand in surgical glove with things like abortions. Person? What person? Andrewasauber
June 25, 2015
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WD400, My question to you was "are you person?" Obviously, materialism offers no basis for "person".
FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. Without scientism, we look at life from the inside, from the first-person POV (OMG, you don’t know what a POV is?—a “point of view”). The first person is the subject, the audience, the viewer of subjective experience, the self in the mind. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates. The physical facts fix all the facts. The mind is the brain. It has to be physical and it can’t be anything else, since thinking, feeling, and perceiving are physical process—in particular, input/output processes—going on in the brain. We can be sure of a great deal about how the brain works because the physical facts fix all the facts about the brain. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives. It excludes the very possibility of enduring persons, selves, or souls that exist after death or for that matter while we live. Not that there was ever much doubt about mortality anyway. This chapter uses the science of Chapter 8 to provide scientism’s answers to the persistent questions about us and the mind. The fact that these answers are so different from what life’s illusions tell us from the inside of consciousness is just more reason not to take introspection seriously. The neural circuits in our brain manage the beautifully coordinated and smoothly appropriate behavior of our body. They also produce the entrancing introspective illusion that thoughts really are about stuff in the world. This powerful illusion has been with humanity since language kicked in, as we’ll see. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak. To see why we make these mistakes and why it’s so hard to avoid them, we need to understand the source of the illusion that thoughts are about stuff. [A.Rosenberg, 'The Atheist's Guide to Reality', ch.9 'FAREWELL TO THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE']
Box
June 25, 2015
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Box:
WD400: I’m a person (…) Box: Thank you. I’m sorry to have bothered you—I mistook you for a materialist.
Are you saying that someone who is not religious is not a person?Carpathian
June 25, 2015
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