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Creationists invent time travel

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Okay, okay, it should have read: “Supposed creationist inventions” would require time travel

Further to: A classic in citation bluffing (defending dying orthodoxy), a friend kindly writes to say that citation bluffer Gary Hurd also falsely claimed in 2005 that the distinction between microevolution and macroevolution is a creationist invention. In reality, the distinction was made in the 1930s by Neo-Darwinist Theodosius Dobzhansky and has been widely used by Darwinists ever since.

See, for example,

When engaging in debates, every once in a while I hear the claim that Darwin-critics also invented terms like “microevolution” or “macroevolution.” For example, Jonathan Wells reports, “In 2005, Darwinist Gary Hurd claimed that the distinction between microevolution and macroevolution was just a creationist fabrication. … Hurd wrote to the Kansas State Board of Education: “…’macro’ and ‘micro’ evolution … have no meaning outside of creationist polemics.” (Jonathan Wells, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design, pgs. 55-56). This is also a Darwinian urban legend, for such terms have been used regularly in the scientific literature. Indeed, textbooks commonly teach this terminology, including two of the textbooks I used in college when learning about evolutionary biology.

The glossary of my college introductory biology text, Campbell’s Biology (4th Ed.) states: “macroevolution: Evolutionary change on a grand scale, encompassing the origin of novel designs, evolutionary trends, adaptive radiation, and mass extinction.” Futuyma’s Evolutionary Biology, a text I used for an upper-division evolutionary biology course, states, “In Chapters 2h3 through 25, we will analyze the principles of MACROEVOLUTION, that is, the origin and diversification of higher taxa.” (pg. 447, emphasis in original). Similarly, these textbooks respectively define “microevolution” as “a change in the gene pool of a population over a succession of generations” and “slight, short-term evolutionary changes within species.” Clearly Darwin-skeptics did not invent these terms.

Other scientific texts use the terms. In his 1989 McGraw Hill textbook, Macroevolutionary Dynamics, Niles Eldredge admits that “[m]ost families, orders, classes, and phyla appear rather suddenly in the fossil record, often without anatomically intermediate forms smoothly interlinking evolutionarily derived descendant taxa with their presumed ancestors.” (pg. 22) Similarly, Steven M. Stanley titles one of his books, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process (The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998 version), where he notes that, “[t]he known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphological transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid.” (pg. 39) More.

So creationists invented time travel and just went back and changed all that?

Unfortunately, the bad news is, today, evidence-based objections attract suspicion. Achievement means representing persuasively what the cool people believe—even if those very same cool people are about to be indicted for perjury. (That would just show how uncool the justice system is, but maybe it will be fixed later.)

For who bluffer Hurd is, go here.

He is just the neutral source you had hoped to hear from, right?

We’ll be hearing plenty more in the same vein from Darwin’s spokesfolks, be sure of it. Darwinism trumps accuracy.

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Comments
Mapou, "However probability does not do away with causality" Very well stated.computerist
December 6, 2014
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Mapou:
I believe everything physical was designed and created by intelligent beings.
So accidents and random effects cannot happen? Really?
Sorry, I am not sure how you arrived at this conclusion since I believe the universe is necessarily probabilistic. However probability does not do away with causality. Matter cannot create itself.Mapou
December 6, 2014
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Mapou:
I believe everything physical was designed and created by intelligent beings.
So accidents and random effects cannot happen? Really?Joe
December 6, 2014
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The way most evolutionary biologists use the word, macroevolution is evolution above the species level.
But that is meaningless so why would anyone use it? Jerry Coyne, an evolutionary biologist, defines it differently and his definition actually means something:
“MACROEVOLUTION: ‘Major’ evolutionary change, usually thought of as large changes in body form or the evolution of one type of plant or animal from another type. The change from our primate ancestor to modern humans, or from early reptiles to birds, would be considered macroevolution. “MICROEVOLUTION: ‘Minor’ evolutionary change, such as the change in size or color of a species. One example is the evolution of different skin colors or hair types among human populations; another is the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria.”
Joe
December 6, 2014
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Mapou #53 Thank you for taking the time to give us that outline of your belief structure. I understand better now some of your comments and arguments.Jerad
December 6, 2014
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Jerad @47:
Mapou #46 One thing I find interesting since you don’t trust most (if not all) scientists and scholars is: who do you trust and where do your get the information upon which you base your ideas? It seems to me that you are picking and choosing sources based on whether or not your agree with them. But I’ll not put words in your mouth. Perhaps it would be enlightening to all participants of this thread if you were to list at least some of your sources and inspirations. It would give us a chance to get a bigger picture of your over all view at least. Give us your ideological resume as it were.
I believe everything physical was designed and created by intelligent beings. This is the main basis of all my arguments. I also base my arguments on known science (Google "epigenetics", "adaptation", etc.). I just use simple logical deduction to destroy arguments for Darwinian evolution and against dualism (the idea that it takes both spirit and brain to have consciousness) and design. For example, it should be obvious to anybody who is not a liar and a deceiver that, without a gene repair mechanism, nothing can survive. This little and rarely discussed fact completely and mercilessly kills Darwinian evolution dead before it's even born.Mapou
December 6, 2014
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Gentlepeople at 50 and 51, Thank you for your responses. I'd like you to consider your own responses. Neither suggested a matter of scale. If scale was the issue, why should "different approaches to understand macro-" (your words) be necessary. Further, if they (micro- and macro-) have distinct trajectories, how can they merely be matters of scale? Assume for a moment that I am not "declaring" anything. If "micro-" points to the "same physical processes" that produce speciation (your words), how could the trajectories be different. This happens nowhere else in science. You seem to be saying micro- and macro- are indistinguishable -- "is the same thing", yet they yield different results: variation vs. speciation. Further it is this difference, that at once is and isn't a difference that necessitates the prefixes. Your reasoning seems deeply confused.Tim
December 5, 2014
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@Tim, wd400 gave the same answer I would give -- speciation is the "bright line" in terms of what is generally considered "macro-evolution scale" vs. "micro-evolution scale". But this would be nothing more than a handy convention; as I said, these are just scaling terms for the same physical processes. As a matter of avoiding confusion, or more directly pre-empting the kind of equivocation we see the OP, consider that: 1. Declaring "macro-evolution" as "micro-evolution writ large", THEN suggesting that "micro-evolution extrapolated out to any scale cannot produce variegated species" misrepresents scientific usage. "micro" is used to point to the same physical process that produce the diversification and speciation we see. If you are agreeing with "micro-evolution" but not "macro-evolution", you are not using the terms as science uses (and has used) them. Micro-evolution is, by scientific usage, the same thing as macro-evolution, which does produce the kinds of diversification we see in living things around us. 2. Creationists are free to use words however they wish -- words mean whatever we can get others to agree they mean. Such overloading of terms, though, inevitably yields lots of confusion, misunderstanding and is fertile grounds for deception. I think the OP was just the product of being lazy, but if the motives were lower, it shows the problem here, as it would be deception.eigenstate
December 4, 2014
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Tim, The way most evolutionary biologists use the word, macroevolution is evolution above the species level. Once populations are reproductively isloated (i.e. are distinct species), changes in one don't effect the other, and thus each has a distinct evolutionary trajectory. We need different approaches to understand "macroevolutionary" processes, than those that go on within species, so there is a degree of separation between micro- and macro- studies. I don't this is how creationists usually use the word, however?wd400
December 4, 2014
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Eigenstate, As I understand you, micro- and macro- according to D. et al (in the evo-camp) are merely matters of scale. If so, could you please tell me (even approximately) what that scale is. Thanks in advance.Tim
December 4, 2014
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tjguy: do you have any experimental evidence to back up this claim? See Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014: "An RNA enzyme has been developed that catalyzes the joining of oligonucleotide substrates to form additional copies of itself, undergoing self-replication with exponential growth. The enzyme also can cross-replicate with a partner enzyme, resulting in their mutual exponential growth and enabling self-sustained Darwinian evolution. " tjguy: Is it simply your belief – what the model proposes? Ribozymes were discovered in 1982 by Altman & Cech. http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1989/ Mapou: The fact remains that the AI and computer science communities turned Turing into a god and worshipped the ground he walked on. Turing was certainly a mind of the first order, and made substantial contributions to many fields, from mathematics to computer science.Zachriel
December 4, 2014
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Mapou #46 One thing I find interesting since you don't trust most (if not all) scientists and scholars is: who do you trust and where do your get the information upon which you base your ideas? It seems to me that you are picking and choosing sources based on whether or not your agree with them. But I'll not put words in your mouth. Perhaps it would be enlightening to all participants of this thread if you were to list at least some of your sources and inspirations. It would give us a chance to get a bigger picture of your over all view at least. Give us your ideological resume as it were.Jerad
December 3, 2014
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@43, I meant to write Hubert Dreyfus, not Herbert. Jerad @45, Whether or not you're being sarcastic, there will be plenty more to come. There's revolution in the air.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Mapou, Thank you for helping to generate one of the most entertaining UD threads that I can remember. Your views on science and history are priceless.Jerad
December 3, 2014
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tjguy to Zachriel:
How do you know that what you think happened really did happen?
Zachriel does not know that. He's just preaching his religion. He's a weaver of lies and deception just like the rest of them. In fact, simple logic proves him wrong. Almost all mutations are destructive. Without a repair mechanism, there is no chance whatsoever that anything can evolve to the point of having a reproductive capability. Anything that is built will immediately be destroyed. That is the nature of true random mutations. It's like continually injecting random numbers into a computer program and expect it to work.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Zachriel:
We provided quotes showing that he was merely conjecturing in order to explore the subject.
It does not matter. The fact remains that the AI and computer science communities turned Turing into a god and worshipped the ground he walked on. They all jumped on the symbolic bandwagon while badmouthing critics like Herbert Dreyfus who tried unsuccessfully to explain to them why they were so obviously wrong. Heck, they still continue to kiss Turing's posterior even though he had nothing to do with the invention of the computer. The true inventors of the computer are Charles Babbage and Lady Ada Lovelace (100 years before Turing) and John Von Neumann. In fact, contrary to popular misconception, modern computers are not Turing machines at all.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Zachriel @12
Mapou: Without this system, we would all die. This system could not evolve because it must be there from the start.
In response to that, Zachriel asserts this: No, it doesn’t have to be there at the start. A primitive replicator, such as RNA, would not need a repair mechanism. That’s an enhancement that could evolve later.
Zachriel, you sound quite dogmatic here – very sure of yourself, but do you have any experimental evidence to back up this claim? OR Is it simply your belief – what the model proposes? In other words, how do you really know it's true? How do you really know that RNA would not need a repair mechanism from the start OR how do you know that a repair mechanism is within the reach of evolution? How do you know that what you think happened really did happen?tjguy
December 3, 2014
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Zachriel @12
Mapou: Without this [repair] system, we would all die. This system could not evolve because it must be there from the start.
e> In response to this, Zachriel asserts this:
No, it doesn’t have to be there at the start. A primitive replicator, such as RNA, would not need a repair mechanism. That’s an enhancement that could evolve later.
Zachriel, you sound quite dogmatic here - very sure of yourself, but do you have any experimental evidence to back up this claim or is it simply your belief - what the model proposes? In other words, how do you really know this is true?
tjguy
December 3, 2014
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Mapou: Turing started the whole GOFAI era with his Turing test nonsense. We provided quotes showing that he was merely conjecturing in order to explore the subject.Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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hrun0815:
Mapou at 26: “These mutations are not selected via natural selection but but via epigenetics.” Wow. This can’t even be parsed to make any biological sense! How do you think epigenetics could select mutations?
Man, answer your own stupid question. I am not your dog.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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What a shame, Mapou, that all my position has going for it is evidence. I guess you win.
wd400, you got no evidence. You just got religion. But don't fret. I understand.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Zachriel @30, Turing started the whole GOFAI era with his Turing test nonsense. The test assumes that human intelligence is based on language and that a computer that has mastery of language should be considered intelligent and even conscious. After all, they reasoned, what is language, if not a bunch of symbols? That was the AI community's take on it then and, even though they had a couple of Nobel laureates among them, they were humiliatingly and pathetically wrong. They ignored 100 years of research in psychology and wasted everybody's time and money for half a century. Now the Bayesian crowd is repeating the same mistake. It would be laughable if weren't so pathetic. So, don't talk to me about scientific authority. I'll tell you what to do with it in no uncertain terms.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Has the Black Knight finally been cashiered to a varlet and defenestrated?Axel
December 3, 2014
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@drc466
Which group, do you propose, would disagree with those definitions?
Neither as isolated definitions. The equivocation arises from scientists seeing these definitions as referring to precisely the same process and physical dynamics, while creationists posit an unbridgeable gap (unbridgeable without a deisgner, that is) between the two. Creationists do NOT see this as synonyms, just varying by degree. That is not even a little bit controversial, else they'd supporters of modern biology.
You are the one trying to make a distinction without a difference – while both evolutionists and creationists have long used the same terms to mean the same things, their point of disagreement is whether Evolution is capable of producing macro from micro.
This just reiterates News' equivocation: the fact that there *exists* this dispute substantiates the distinction as meaningful, as critical. If this weren't a critical distinction, creationists could join Dobzhanksy in observing that "nothing makes sense in biology but in the light of evolution" (paraphrase from memory, pretty sure that's close). Unless you suppose creationists would and do subscribe to that "homogeneous view" of evolution, macro as micro over long periods of time and many, many generations, then you are indulging the very same kind of equivocation that News has offered us in the OP. Creationists going back in time wouldn't have anything to "fix", because Dobzhansky et al were using "micro" and "macro" as scaling terms, rather than fundamentally different processes (creationists draw crucial distinctions between macro and micro, where macro can't happen by natural process, where as micro can and does).
How is creationist disagreement that you can get from point a to point b via baby steps qualify as a “micro and macro have no meaning outside creationist polemics”?
It's parochial. The creationist distinction between macro and micro is recent, novel and idiosyncratic to creationism. That is, the wider science community has no such operating distinction -- these terms are just scale indicators in biology. "Macro" and "Micro" do not have the meaning or semantics creationists employ outside creationism. What creations intend by their usage is nonsense to modern biology, at odds with usage that *does* have some (if trivial) semantic utility.
As for your “millimeter/kilometer” analogy, remember that micro/macro describes the results of a process, not a straight measure. A better description is that both creationists and evolutionists agree that people can walk (change in position/gene pool change), and that they can walk down the street (millimeter/micro). But extrapolating that they can walk to the moon (kilometer/macro) doesn’t follow. The term millimeter and kilometer still mean the same thing, just like micro and macro evolution.
'macro-evolution' and 'micro-evolution' are processes, processes that produce results, yes, but processes. And for biologists, 'macro' and 'micro' point at precisely the same processes. The analogy I hear more often is that you can drive from LA to Reno, or even LA to New York, but you can't drive from LA to London. No dispute there, but this misses the basic structure of modern biological theory; macro evolution is a reified result of that process, happening over billions of years past and producing the diversity and variety of living things we see to do. Or, to employ the analogy, modern biology's theory and empirical results implicate "driving from LA to London", as it were. To the extent that seems wrong, it's a flaw in the analogy, not the biology. Speciation is a fact, a product of evolution operating at long time scales. To dispute that is the creationist prerogative, but they must own the entailments of that: 'macro' is not the same term in that usage as is used by biologists.eigenstate
December 3, 2014
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Mapou: I don’t trust your “scientists” and their experimental evidence. That's the great thing about science. You don't have to trust "scientists" or their "experimental evidence". You can replicate the experiment yourself. The Lederbergs Experiment is actually a commonly done experiment.Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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Mapou at 26: "These mutations are not selected via natural selection but but via epigenetics." Wow. This can't even be parsed to make any biological sense! How do you think epigenetics could select mutations?hrun0815
December 3, 2014
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What a shame, Mapou, that all my position has going for it is evidence. I guess you win.wd400
December 3, 2014
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wd400, First off, I don't trust your "scientists" and their experimental evidence. Second, I don't trust the Nobel committee. Why? Not just because they are all human but especially because they are all politicians and religionists and they're all fighting for the one true state religion. I, for one, rebel against all religionist overlords. So unless you got an argument that you can make with your own words, I don't want to hear it. Sooner or later, however, all of science will be conducted by robots. You guys will be taken to pasture or something. LOL.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Z: Do you have a citation for Alan Turing’s views on the nature of intelligence? Nevermind. Turing said "I have no very convincing arguments of a positive nature to support my views," and "conjectures are of great importance since they suggest useful lines of research".Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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Mapou: scientists are frequently wrong. Sure, but more often right about a consensus opinion within their specialty than non-specialists. Mapou: For example, the entire artificial intelligence community, starting with Alan Turing in the 50s, were wrong about intelligence being just symbol manipulation. As far as we know, no one claimed to have invented AI with human capabilities. Do you have a citation for Alan Turing's views on the nature of intelligence? Mapou: Now the dominant paradigm in the AI community is that the brain is Bayesian. That's called a hypothesis. You do understand a hypothesis is a tentative assumption?Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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