Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

But I really DO think that Christian Darwinism is an oxymoron

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

or

Something I wrote recently seems to have sparked quite the little discussion. (Dang! Everybody talks to Barry, nobody talks to me … 🙂 )

Briefly, I noted that a friend’s post had been removed from a Christian Darwinist site because the moderator felt that he had intimated that Theodosius Dobzhansky was not a Christian. (He was not a Christian by any reasonable standard.)

How can one tell if a person is a Christian, many wanted to know. Isn’t that just making a judgement (judge not, lest ye be …)?

Barry Arrington made the excellent point that asking the person to affirm the Creed may be setting the bar a little high.

Fair enough: When I have used the Creed that way, I aimed to sort out situations where the person darn well knows what the Creed says and how it may differ from his private convictions. And I had good reasons for asking; otherwise, I wouldn’t bother. I have neither time nor inclination for hunting down heresies. (And none of this is written with prejudice to any other religion. It’s just that salesdarwinists currently target confused Christians more than other confused folk. So, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others, please pardon us Christians as we set the record straight.)

We must say something when someone like Dobzhansky is fronted as a “Christian” to advance the Darwinist cause. I don’t object in principle to other rational criteria for assessing whether someone is a Christian, ones such as Barry offered. The main thing to see here is that a person cannot in good faith believe two doctrines that oppose each other at the most basic level.

Darwinism opposes Christianity in a much more serious way than is generally recognized: The Darwinist must – and usually does – believe that Christianity accidentally evolved amid the noise of neurons and it spread via natural selection.

Thus it was that man created God.

Now, if the Darwinist also believes that Christianity was the result of God’s admittedly spectacular self-revelations (cf the Creed**), then he believes that God created man. Which is it?

More to the point, if the Darwinist also believes that God can do all that the Creed commands* good Christians to believe, he cannot rationally go on to insist that

🙂 man is a part of nature, and Darwin proved it

🙂 God never intervenes in nature, but does it all by Darwinism

So man created God, but no, God created man. Or God created man with the capacity of accidentally evolve an idea of God as an illusion. Why? Because he couldn’t reveal himself?

So yes, I do think Christian Darwinism is an oxymoron, if the Christian Darwinist is unconfused enough to know what he is saying.

It is hardly irrelevant to this discussion that 78% of evolutionary biologists are “pure naturalists” (no God and no free will).

* You cannot become an adult Catholic, so far as I know, without assenting intellectually to the Creed.

**For those for whom the Creed may be a bit challenging, due to age, haste, extreme suffering, emergency, etc., there is also a more basic prayer, the Act of Faith :

O MY GOD, I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; I believe that Thy divine Son became man and died for our sins, and that He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, Who canst neither deceive nor be deceived. Amen.

. Now that is either branch of Christianity or Darwin’s neural noise.

Comments
---ilion: "Was it not you who insisted, @92, that the above is correct? Even though it isn’t correct, as it is backward?" I did, indeed, say that, from a Christian perspective, God created humans exactly as He wanted them--with no variation from His original intent. If you think that position is incorrect, I would like for you to explain yourself. We are, after all, discussing the Christian world view, not necessarily my world view or your world view. In that context, did God allow happenstance to decide the outcome of His creative process, working around and adjusting to the finished product, whatever form it might take? Or, did He insure that the finished product was exactly what He wanted? --"Was it not you who, at @107 and 109, began to acknowledge that I wasn’t totally wrong?" You introduced new subject matter, namely that pro-agency and anti-agency are incompatible, and so they are. You are totally right about that. You also asserted that such was the only significant contradiction between Christianity and Darwinism. On that point, you were wrong. Christianity and Darwinism are manifestly incompatible in many important ways. Thus, you were partly right.StephenB
December 24, 2010
December
12
Dec
24
24
2010
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
ilion RE 184 Please point out to me when I have exhibited an attitude of arrogance and condenscension as it relates to you and me. Furthermore please address my post in 183. Do you really hold to the illogical and irrational position that nothing determines our choices. That our choices poof into existence from nothing and no where without a reason? Vividvividbleau
December 24, 2010
December
12
Dec
24
24
2010
03:55 PM
3
03
55
PM
PDT
"Nice attitude you got going there." Listen to you! Do I *really* need to point out the hypocrisy of your attitude?Ilion
December 24, 2010
December
12
Dec
24
24
2010
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT
ilion RE 180 Nice attitude you got going there. Since I am in the Christmas spirit I will try to do give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you really are not positing the irrational and illogical proposition that choices come from nothing and no where!! They just poof into existence from nothing. Your response to me just happened and came from that which rocks dream of ie nothing. Now my choices are either determined, non determined or undetermined. To say they are non determined, that nothing determines them is to say something comes from nothing. I cant imagine you embracing this position but who knows? To say they are undetermined can be taken to mean either we do not know what determined them or that each choice can go one way or the other. The former does not posit the irrational and illogical position that nothing determines choices rather what actually determined my choice is unknown or not well understood. The latter also does not entail the irrational and illogical position that something can come from nothing. Even though my choice can go this way or that there still is something determining which way or that I end up choosing. Merry Christmas Vividvividbleau
December 24, 2010
December
12
Dec
24
24
2010
02:44 PM
2
02
44
PM
PDT
StephenB:I don’t think that you even know my position on the matter [of determinism as applies to the Christian metaphysic and the atheistic metaphysic.] since I have been discussing something else.” Do I not, really? Was it not you who wrote @65: “… Thus, assuming evolution is true, and it may not be, the Christian world view of the evolutionary process is incompatible with the Darwinist world view of the evolutionary process because the former will admit of only one outcome while the latter will admit of any outcome at all” Was it not you who insisted, @92, that the above is correct? Even though it isn’t correct, as it is backward? Was it not you who, at @107 and 109, began to acknowledge that I wasn’t totally wrong?Ilion
December 24, 2010
December
12
Dec
24
24
2010
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PDT
---ilion to vividbleua: "In any event, if I make the time to get involved again in this thread, it should be to nudge StephenB further along the trail of realizing that I am right (and he is wrong) on the specific matter of determinism as applies to the Christian metaphysic and the atheistic metaphysic." I don't think that you even know my position on the matter since I have been discussing something else. For my part, I think contingency does exist in nature, [ID argues on behalf of both Law and Chance does it not] but that doesn't mean God can't use and direct contingency to get the results that He wants. I think some things have been specifically designed, while others may not have been. I also agree that materialism is consistent with determinism. Everyone knows that--I think. Did God intend for the Grand Canyon to be exactly as it is? I have no idea. Maybe so, maybe not. Did God intend for mankind to be a unity of mind and body. Yes, indeed. Would He allow a variation of that intended outcome and just make the best of whatever turns up. I say no. What do you say? On that critical and decisive matter, you remain silent. After having cited several Darwinists who agree with me that Darwinism is synonymous with a purposeless, mindless process that produces a different result every time, I asked you to cite one Darwinist who agrees with you, namely that a purposeless, mindless process will produce the same result every time. On that point, you remain silent. In case you missed it, that was a challenge. How can God, as the Christian Darwinists insist, "use" such a process to produce us. On that important matter, you remain silent. When God created man, Did He get the exact result outcome He intended or didn't He? If He used the evolutionary process, did it produce the desired outcome, or didn't it? On these most important of all matters, you are also silent. If you want to get in the game, then get in the game.StephenB
December 24, 2010
December
12
Dec
24
24
2010
09:18 AM
9
09
18
AM
PDT
Vividbleau:Ilion I would be glad to engage you on this subjct but I do not want to go down a rabbit trail that is not germaine to my discussion with Bilbo.” Ah, but on this subject there is nothing to argue about, since “I do not accept the premise that if my choices are determined they are not free” expresses a self-contradiction. In any event, if I make the time to get involved again in this thread, it should be to nudge StephenB further along the trail of realizing that I am right (and he is wrong) on the specific matter of determinism as applies to the Christian metaphysic and the atheistic metaphysic.Ilion
December 24, 2010
December
12
Dec
24
24
2010
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PDT
---nullasalus: “Bilbo clearly agrees that God can and does in fact foresee the outcomes and events of evolution – “ Yes. Bilbo agrees that God knows the events and outcomes of evolution. ---“I assume he believes God is and was entirely capable of altering the events and outcomes in any way He so chose – so I hold out for the possibility that there is simply miscommunication here.” Again, Yes. Bilbo also believes that God is and was entirely capable of altering the events and outcomes in any way he choses. Here is the rub: For Bilbo, God need not have designed the evolutionary process that produces the outcome. According to this view, the process is just a given and its origin needs no explanation. That is why Bilbo always speaks in terms of God’s foreknowledge and never in terms of God’s apriori intent. Under these circumstances, God “knows” what is going to happen, God “allows” and “approves” of what is going to happen, but God didn't “make” it happen. With this scenario, we are told, God could let a purposeless, mindless evolutionary process play out and get exactly the result He wants without having decided ahead of time how he wants it to play out-- without designing the process with all the necessary ingredients to insure the desired outcome. This world view is what defines unguided, undesigned Christian Darwinism, and it makes no sense. Theistic Evolution, properly understood, allows for design, and is, to that extent, reasonable. Unfortunately, Theistic Evolution has come to mean Christian Darwinism and is, in that context, unreasonable. .StephenB
December 23, 2010
December
12
Dec
23
23
2010
09:33 PM
9
09
33
PM
PDT
StephenB, I think you may be misreading Bilbo just a little. He is on board for the allowing and knowing part, but He will not commit to any kind of apriori intent on the part of the knower. I know because I have pressed him on this several times. If he did acknowledge apriori intent, we would have no dispute. Perhaps, but then I simply don't get how he can say what he is saying. To create in the first place that which will lead to a process and certain outcomes, to know with certainty and in advance the paths of these processes and their results, and to have it in one's power to choose whether or not to allow said processes to come to pass (to change the processes, the results, or to choose whether or not to instantiate anything at all) leaves one with a being who had to, at least in some ultimate way, have therefore intended that which came to pass. (I suppose you could argue that God did not intend event X specifically for its own sake, but that permitting it was essential to a greater plan - say, the later achievement of Y which was reliant on X. But that would be a different kind of 'lack of intent' than is being discussed here. Rather like how a surgeon doesn't "want to slice someone open with a scalpel", but they do want to remove a near-bursting appendix, therefore..) Either way, in that case I wonder what Bilbo could mean. Perhaps that the process in the abstract is not itself one which would definitely always lead to result X. Rather like how I can make a house out of legos, but there's nothing 'about the legos' which guarantees that a house will be made with them. Bilbo clearly agrees that God can and does in fact foresee the outcomes and events of evolution - I assume he believes God is and was entirely capable of altering the events and outcomes in any way He so chose - so I hold out for the possibility that there is simply miscommunication here. Of course, there's always the possibility there isn't, and I'll just be forced to disagree and explain why. But what can I say - I like to be optimistic sometimes.nullasalus
December 23, 2010
December
12
Dec
23
23
2010
07:05 PM
7
07
05
PM
PDT
---"Nullasalus to Bilbo: “You keep talking about how evolution is ‘random’, but the sort of randomness you mean doesn’t preclude God knowing, allowing, or even intending the results.” I think you may be misreading Bilbo just a little. He is on board for the allowing and knowing part, but He will not commit to any kind of apriori intent on the part of the knower. I know because I have pressed him on this several times. If he did acknowledge apriori intent, we would have no dispute. I agree, and always have agreed that, logically, God could program an evolutionary process [perhaps using variations and selections] to get the exact result he wants. What I am arguing against Bilbo’s proposition, namely that God can get the result he wants WITHOUT programming or planning the process. As I have pointed out multiple times, if God used the process to produce the desired outcome, then God would have to plan or program the same process that he used. Bilbo has contested that proposition, arguing that God can use an unprogrammed, unplanned process to get the desired result. Bilbo is appealing to Darwinism, which, precisely because it is not designed to produce a desired outcome, will produce a different result every time. It is this same process that produces a different result every time that Bilbo claims God can use to get exactly/the result he wants the very first time. That is why we differentiate Christian Darwinism [God uses an unprogrammed, undesigned, naturalistic process] with Theistic evolution [God uses a programmed, designed, naturalistic process]. Bilbo is arguing for Christian Darwinism.StephenB
December 23, 2010
December
12
Dec
23
23
2010
06:03 PM
6
06
03
PM
PDT
Ilion "If your “choices” are determined, they’re not only not free, they’re not even choices." Ilion I would be glad to engage you on this subjct but I do not want to go down a rabbit trail that is not germaine to my discussion with Bilbo. Vividvividbleau
December 23, 2010
December
12
Dec
23
23
2010
05:40 PM
5
05
40
PM
PDT
"I do not accept the premise that if my choices are determined they are not free." If your "choices" are determined, they're not only not free, they're not even choices. You might as well speak of a computer program having choices.Ilion
December 23, 2010
December
12
Dec
23
23
2010
02:04 PM
2
02
04
PM
PDT
Bilbo RE 169 Some house keeping but I do not want to chase rabbits as the following is not germaine to our discussion. You should know... I do not accept the premise that if my choices are determined they are not free. Even if my choices were not certain that does not mean they would be random. I dont think any choice by a rational individual is ever random. Certain means that I will choose only that which God foreknows I will choose. My choices will never deviate from what God foreknows I will choose. I agree with Stephen when he says you need to address this whole issue regarding Gods foreknowledge. How can God foreknow something if it in fact has the possibility of not happening? If it did not happen then God did not foreknow it. If it had the possibility of not happening then it is not knowledge it is more properly foreguessing. So I ask again how can God foreknow something if it in fact has the possibilty of not happening? Vividvividbleau
December 22, 2010
December
12
Dec
22
22
2010
06:08 PM
6
06
08
PM
PDT
Given an omnipotent God, and assuming macro-evolution for the sake of argument, only two possibilities exist: [A] God designed a process that would infallibly produce the result He wanted, that is, in his one and only try, or [B] God produced a non-design, Darwinian process, which would almost certainly not produce the result He wanted, indeed, one that would likely require trillions upon trillions of tries until He got exceedingly lucky and finally achieved His goal, that same goal that He could have achieved in one try with a design process. Moreover, [B] is ridiculous on the face of it because God would not work against Himself and design a non-design process. ---Bilbo: “Or reflects the efforts of a designer who is satisfied with what He foreknows will be the results of the Darwinian process, just as He foreknows the results of human free choices.” As I explained earlier, you are mistakenly assuming that God’s knowledge about the outcome of the evolutionary process is unrelated to God’s role as the originator of that process—as if it was only after evolution came into existence that God came to realize that its outcome was what he wanted. In fact, God had to know evolution’s outcome before evolution came into existence since He designed it for the sake of that outcome. You need to address that point, not ignore it, because it defines the error in your thinking.StephenB
December 22, 2010
December
12
Dec
22
22
2010
04:08 PM
4
04
08
PM
PDT
Bilbo, Yes they would be incompatible. I dispute (A). Darwinism requires that the mutations be random with respect to fitness. This is in no way incompatible with God foreknowing what the mutations will be. Ruse et al are terribly confused about this. Between this, and what you're saying, I think this whole argument can come to an end, can it? You're asserting that even if nature is in some way 'Free', it's not the sort of freedom that precludes God knowing or permitting the outcomes of nature. As near as I can tell, by the standards of Kairos, Stephen and others, you are not a 'Darwinist' - nor are you one by Ruse's standards. Now, you say Ruse is mistaken, 'not Christian Darwinists'. But I'm going to note: Ruse didn't make his statement on his own website, or in some newspaper editorial. This was part of a guest post series on Biologos, TE central. I have defended TEs on this very site - ask StephenB, ask Kairosfocus. I've argued repeatedly that accepting evolution does not necessitate accepting a process that God did not plan or guide, etc, particularly in the sense of "God did not know or permit the outcomes". But there really are some 'Christian Darwinists' who do believe such things, or who certainly present themselves as believing such. The fact that Ruse was invited to make the claims he did on Biologos should at least put up some warning flags to you. I think that's where everyone is tripping up. You keep talking about how evolution is 'random', but the sort of randomness you mean doesn't preclude God knowing, allowing, or even intending the results. Then they say 'But that's not Darwinism', and you insist that it is, which leads back to the 'Then you DO believe it's random!' and the clarification of 'No' and... etc. It seems by.. let's call it 'House Rules', your (hypothetical?) views would not be Darwinist. Not by the standards Ruse gives, not by the standards StephenB or other hears have. You insist those views would be Darwinist.. but at that point you're not argued about ideas, but definitions of words.nullasalus
December 22, 2010
December
12
Dec
22
22
2010
03:43 PM
3
03
43
PM
PDT
StephenB: Humans have the free will to choose a course different from the one God intended. Nature cannot do that. But if the most basic events of Nature are indeed random, then yes, Nature can "choose" a different course from the one God intended. Given an omnipotent God, and assuming macro-evolution for the sake of argument, only two possibilities exist: [A] God designed a process that would infallibly produce the result He wanted or [B] God produced a non-design, Darwinian process–one which, by definition, will produce a different result every time–one which, by virtue of its random nature, would almost certainly not conform to a designer’s specifications–one which, in fact, reflects the efforts of a designer who doesn’t design. Or reflects the efforts of a designer who is satisfied with what He foreknows will be the results of the Darwinian process, just as He foreknows the results of human free choices.Bilbo I
December 22, 2010
December
12
Dec
22
22
2010
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
StephenB: Truer words were never spoken. The last thing Christian Darwinists want to do is define their terms, and when they are forced to do so, they take jolly good care to keep them as vague as possible. I understand this to be a veiled criticism of me. That means that you think that I am a Christian Darwinist. I'm not. The fact that someone can argue for the reasonableness of a position that they disagree with is a sign of open-mindedness and intellectual honesty. Apparently I have argued so well that you mistake me for the position I am defending, even though I don't hold it. Thank you for the compliment.Bilbo I
December 22, 2010
December
12
Dec
22
22
2010
02:02 PM
2
02
02
PM
PDT
Vivid: Since God foreknew my choices my choices are certain and thus not random. To know with certainty what someone will choose does not mean that that choice is not free. I had assumed that the reason you thought foreknown events could not be random was because foreknowing them meant that they were determined. Thus it would follow that foreknown "free" choices were also determined, which would mean that they were not free. But apparently that is not what you mean by "certain." So what do you mean by "certain"?Bilbo I
December 22, 2010
December
12
Dec
22
22
2010
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
[Again, I am assuming macro-evolution for the sake of argument. I do not accept it as an unassailable scientific fact.]. If an evolutionary process is capable of producing an outcome that God doesn’t want [Darwinism], then it cannot infallibly produce the outcome that God does want. ----Bilbo: “Infallibly? No. But since God knows what outcome it will produce, if it is the outcome He wants, then it will produce the outcome He wants. If God knows that a human being will freely choose to do what God wants, then even though that human cannot infallibly choose to do it, he can choose to do it.” You are still comparing apples with oranges. Humans have the free will to choose a course different from the one God intended. Nature cannot do that. Worse, you write as if God’s knowledge about the outcome of the evolutionary process was unrelated to God’s knowledge about the origin of that process, as if it was only after the fact of its coming into existence that God came to realize that its outcome was what he wanted. In fact, God had to know evolution’s outcome before the fact because He designed it for the sake of that outcome. To design something is to design it for a reason. Given an omnipotent God, and assuming macro-evolution for the sake of argument, only two possibilities exist: [A] God designed a process that would infallibly produce the result He wanted or [B] God produced a non-design, Darwinian process--one which, by definition, will produce a different result every time--one which, by virtue of its random nature, would almost certainly not conform to a designer's specifications--one which, in fact, reflects the efforts of a designer who doesn't design.StephenB
December 22, 2010
December
12
Dec
22
22
2010
08:22 AM
8
08
22
AM
PDT
Bilbo —"Not really. If God knows ahead of time what the Darwinian process will produce, He may decide that He wants that outcome and allow it to proceed unhindered.” If God decided that He want that outcome and allow it to proceed unhindered did God decide this on purpose? Bilbo "Therefore, since a Darwinian process will produce varying results, it CAN fail and, therefore, CANNOT infallibly produce the results God wants.It also follows that if the process can infallibly produce the results God wants, it cannot be a Darwinian process. Again, this is basic logic." But if God foreknows the results of the process it must infallibly produce the results God wants so it cannever be a Darwinian process yet you insist that it is. Vividvividbleau
December 21, 2010
December
12
Dec
21
21
2010
05:24 PM
5
05
24
PM
PDT
bilbo "If God foreknew these acts of human free will would occur, then their occurrence is not free since they were certain to occur." Since God foreknew my choices my choices are certain and thus not random. To know with certainty what someone will choose does not mean that that choice is not free. Now enough with the distraction let me repeat "If God foreknew these mutations would occur then their occurence is not random since they were certain to occur." Bilbo how can something that is certain be random? Vividvividbleau
December 21, 2010
December
12
Dec
21
21
2010
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PDT
Oops. Pressed submit button before I finished answering. And I'm out of time.Bilbo I
December 21, 2010
December
12
Dec
21
21
2010
01:56 PM
1
01
56
PM
PDT
StephenB: I wrote: If evolution happened, however it happened, God was its cause. —Bilbo: “That can be understood in a number of different ways. Did God create the universe in which evolution occurs? Yes. Does God sustain the existence of each and every event that occurs in nature? Yes. Did God determine exactly what each event would be? Maybe yes. Maybe no.” You are trying to address an issue that was not raised. I am not speaking right now of results. God either caused the process that you are trying to describe or he didn’t. He may have caused it directly or indirectly, but the fact remains that he caused it. Please either acknowledge that point or deny it. Your statement is ambiguous. I wrote: At the moment, you are saying that God could choose a purposeless, mindless process that is almost sure not to work. Earlier, in this same correspondence, you stated, “I don’t think that it can produce a different outcome from the one God intended.” This is a contradiction. Bilbo —Not really. If God knows ahead of time what the Darwinian process will produce, He may decide that He wants that outcome and allow it to proceed unhindered.” Question: Do you believe in the law of non-contradiction, or the proposition that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances? Yes. If a process is capable of producing an outcome that God doesn’t want [Darwinism], then it cannot infallibly produce the outcome that God does want? Infallibly? No. But since God knows what outcome it will produce, if it is the outcome He wants, then it will produce the outcome He wants. If God knows that a human being will freely choose to do what God wants, then even though that human cannot infallibly choose to do it, he can choose to do it. In keeping with that point, if a process can infallibly produce the product that God wants, it cannot be a Darwinian process, which is capable of producing a result that God doesn’t want. This is basic logic. So far, so good. —“But since God already knows what the outcome of the Darwinian process will be, He won’t “fail.” If He chooses that process, it’s because He knows it will produce what He wants.” You are confusing God’s knowledge of a process with the capacity of the process itself. Either a Darwinian process [A] CAN fail to produce the results that God wants or a Darwinian process [B] CANNOT fail to produce the results that God wants. We have already established the fact that a Darwinian process will produce a different result every time. Therefore, since a Darwinian process will produce varying results, it CAN fail and, therefore, CANNOT infallibly produce the results God wants. It also follows that if the process can infallibly produce the results God wants, it cannot be a Darwinian process. Again, this is basic logic. Bilbo—“ But you have no problem saying that God used human free will to create you, even though it might possibly have not produced you, but produce someone else instead.” You are comparing apples with oranges. Humans co-create with God. They may well, by virtue of their free will, beget other human beings at the wrong time, the wrong place, and under the wrong circumstances. After free will creatures entered the picture, God allowed results that varied from His will. On the matter of his original creative process, however, God did NOT allow results of his creative process to vary from his original intent. From a Christian perspective, He knew that he wanted humans with rational souls and He made sure that he achieved that aim—infallibly—without any possibility of error. A Darwinistic process cannot infallibly produce an outcome that conforms to specifications because it will produce a different result every time. 160 StephenB 12/20/2010 10:17 pm —Bilbo: “It’s Ruse who is trying to make up definitions, not Christian Darwinists.” Truer words were never spoken. The last thing Christian Darwinists want to do is define their terms, and when they are forced to do so, they take jolly good care to keep them as vague as possible.Bilbo I
December 21, 2010
December
12
Dec
21
21
2010
01:55 PM
1
01
55
PM
PDT
Vivid: If God foreknew these mutations would occur then their occurence is not random since they were certain to occur. If God foreknew these acts of human free will would occur, then their occurrence is not free since they were certain to occur.Bilbo I
December 21, 2010
December
12
Dec
21
21
2010
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
bilbo "I mean that events at the level where mutations occur seem to be random — not determined." If God foreknew these mutations would occur then their occurence is not random since they were certain to occur. "if preventing it happening it would not happen and not the determoiner of that thing happening?" Should read "and not be the determiner of that thing happening" Vividvividbleau
December 20, 2010
December
12
Dec
20
20
2010
07:47 PM
7
07
47
PM
PDT
Bilbo "I mean that events at the level where mutations occur seem to be random — not determined. If this is truly the case, then it’s possible that God did not determine some, many, most, or all of those mutations, but allowed them to happen." "But since God already knows what the outcome of the Darwinian process will be, He won’t “fail.” If He chooses that process, it’s because He knows it will produce what He wants." Two questions. How can God know something is going to happen, allow it to happen, if preventing it happening it would not happen and not the determoiner of that thing happening? Exactly when did God know the Darwinian process would transpire? Before he created or after? Vividvividbleau
December 20, 2010
December
12
Dec
20
20
2010
07:28 PM
7
07
28
PM
PDT
---Bilbo: "It’s Ruse who is trying to make up definitions, not Christian Darwinists." Truer words were never spoken. The last thing Christian Darwinists want to do is define their terms, and when they are forced to do so, they take jolly good care to keep them as vague as possible.StephenB
December 20, 2010
December
12
Dec
20
20
2010
07:17 PM
7
07
17
PM
PDT
I wrote: If evolution happened, however it happened, God was its cause. ---Bilbo: “That can be understood in a number of different ways. Did God create the universe in which evolution occurs? Yes. Does God sustain the existence of each and every event that occurs in nature? Yes. Did God determine exactly what each event would be? Maybe yes. Maybe no.” You are trying to address an issue that was not raised. I am not speaking right now of results. God either caused the process that you are trying to describe or he didn’t. He may have caused it directly or indirectly, but the fact remains that he caused it. Please either acknowledge that point or deny it. I wrote: At the moment, you are saying that God could choose a purposeless, mindless process that is almost sure not to work. Earlier, in this same correspondence, you stated, “I don’t think that it can produce a different outcome from the one God intended.” This is a contradiction. ---Not really. If God knows ahead of time what the Darwinian process will produce, He may decide that He wants that outcome and allow it to proceed unhindered.” Question: Do you believe in the law of non-contradiction, or the proposition that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances? If a process is capable of producing an outcome that God doesn’t want [Darwinism], then it cannot infallibly produce the outcome that God does want? In keeping with that point, if a process can infallibly produce the product that God wants, it cannot be a Darwinian process, which is capable of producing a result that God doesn’t want. This is basic logic. ---“But since God already knows what the outcome of the Darwinian process will be, He won’t “fail.” If He chooses that process, it’s because He knows it will produce what He wants.” You are confusing God’s knowledge of a process with the capacity of the process itself. Either a Darwinian process [A] CAN fail to produce the results that God wants or a Darwinian process [B] CANNOT fail to produce the results that God wants. We have already established the fact that a Darwinian process will produce a different result every time. Therefore, since a Darwinian process will produce varying results, it CAN fail and, therefore, CANNOT infallibly produce the results God wants. It also follows that if the process can infallibly produce the results God wants, it cannot be a Darwinian process. Again, this is basic logic. Bilbo—“ But you have no problem saying that God used human free will to create you, even though it might possibly have not produced you, but produce someone else instead.” You are comparing apples with oranges. Humans co-create with God. They may well, by virtue of their free will, beget other human beings at the wrong time, the wrong place, and under the wrong circumstances. After free will creatures entered the picture, God allowed results that varied from His will. On the matter of his original creative process, however, God did NOT allow results of his creative process to vary from his original intent. From a Christian perspective, He knew that he wanted humans with rational souls and He made sure that he achieved that aim—infallibly---without any possibility of error. A Darwinistic process cannot infallibly produce an outcome that conforms to specifications because it will produce a different result every time.StephenB
December 20, 2010
December
12
Dec
20
20
2010
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PDT
Kairo: PS: Christians who are Darwinism supporters, do not get to make the definitions up, and are operating at-sufferance of the materialist power brokers. It's Ruse who is trying to make up definitions, not Christian Darwinists.Bilbo I
December 20, 2010
December
12
Dec
20
20
2010
01:43 PM
1
01
43
PM
PDT
StephenB: What do you mean if God “allowed” it to happen? I mean that events at the level where mutations occur seem to be random -- not determined. If this is truly the case, then it's possible that God did not determine some, many, most, or all of those mutations, but allowed them to happen. If evolution happened, however it happened, God was its cause. That can be understood in a number of different ways. Did God create the universe in which evolution occurs? Yes. Does God sustain the existence of each and every event that occurs in nature? Yes. Did God determine exactly what each event would be? Maybe yes. Maybe no. Therefore, if God designed it, it could not have been a Darwinian process, because a Darwinian process is, by definition, an undesigned process. This also can have different meanings. Does it mean that God designed the process where natural selection acts upon truly random events? Then God designed the Darwinian process. Somehow, you seem to have difficulty with the fact that a “naturalistic” process, even one that uses variations and selections, may be designed to produce a specified outcome, and need not be a “Darwinian” process, which has no specified outcome. No, I don't have difficulty with that idea. Yes, it could be that there are unknown natural laws that govern even the most basic events in nature. In which case, it would seem possible for God to determine the outcome of evolution by setting up the initial conditions at the time of creation. At the moment, you are saying that God could choose a purposeless, mindless process that is almost sure not to work. Earlier, in this same correspondence, you stated, “I don’t think that it can produce a different outcome from the one God intended.” This is a contradiction. Not really. If God knows ahead of time what the Darwinian process will produce, He may decide that He wants that outcome and allow it to proceed unhindered. Bilbo—“But if your parents did not cooperate, you would not exist. So God’s will would have been frustrated.” That’s right. Free will agents frustrate God’s will all the time. What does that have to do with the fact that nature, which has no free will, cannot frustrate God’s will? You are looking for a contradiction here that doesn’t exist. Yes, there is a contradiction. You insist that when God creates something, then it must be exactly as He wants it to be. So given that God has created each and every human being (or do you dispute that?), then each and every human being is exactly as He wants him/her to be, even though many of them came about through very sinful means. How do you reconcile that? What is it about the difference between a natural law and a human will that you do not understand? Nothing. What is it about the similarity of randomness and human will that you do not understand? Bilbo—“You claim that God wouldn’t use Darwinian evolution, because it might possibly produce something that wasn’t His will.” Yes, of course. A Darwinian process will produce a different result every time. Why would an omnipotent God set himself up to fail with a formulation like that? But since God already knows what the outcome of the Darwinian process will be, He won't "fail." If He chooses that process, it's because He knows it will produce what He wants. More to the point, A Darwinian process is, by definition, one that God didn’t use. Not proven. As I have stated multiple times, If God used the evolutionary process, then God designed the evolutionary process. If God designed the evolutionary process, then it can’t be a Darwinian evolutionary process, which, by definition, is undesigned. No. By definition, a Darwinian evolutionary process is one where natural selection acts upon random mutation. If God decided to use such a process, then whether we say God "designed" it or not, it is the process that He chooses to use. Bilbo—“ But you have no problem saying that God used human free will to create you, even though it might possibly have not produced you, but produce someone else instead.” Here we go again. Nature, which must obey God’s laws, is different from humans, who are free to do all kinds of things. If something is different, that means that it is not the same. Yes, but you need to explain how it is that God has created each and every human, if each and every human has come about through free and often rebellious will.Bilbo I
December 20, 2010
December
12
Dec
20
20
2010
01:41 PM
1
01
41
PM
PDT
1 2 3 7

Leave a Reply