“….all of the worlds major religions contain some truth. The main point, however, has not changed. Without God, there can be no morality, because all morality points to the good, which is God himself. If God isn’t good, then there can be no morality.”

“To be sure, your proposed mission (the expansion of man’s knowledge and spreading into the universe) is a noble one, but can it be the ultimate one? Doesn’t it beg the question? What is the purpose of life itself—-to just be or to end? If it doesn’t go on forever, what good is it? If I can’t keep my memories or reunite with my loved ones, isn’t it all a waste? The broader point, though, is that only life’s creator can determine its purpose, and, in a reciprocal sense, you can’t have purpose without a creator….”

I agree with these as statements of your basic position, free of narrow religious doctrinal issues. Atheism and materialism can propose to give meaning and purpose to life, but they are empty of real meaning and reassurance that man is not just a suffering animal. Of course it can be claimed that naturalism is the truth, there is no spiritual reality, so suck it up and live with it. This is the teaching of scientism, but it conveniently ignores a vast body of empirical, circumstantial evidence to the contrary.

To be sure, your proposed mission is a noble one, but can it be the ultimate one? Doesn’t it beg the question? What is the purpose of life itself—-to just be or to end? If it doesn’t go on forever, what good is it? If I can’t keep my memories or reunite with my loved ones, isn’t it all a waste? The broader point, though, is that only life’s creator can determine its purpose, and, in a reciprocal sense, you can’t have purpose without a creator. Further, life itself is FOR something. Life can be good or life can be bad. How do you know what a good life is unless you know what goodness is or how life is supposed to be played out in a behavioral context? How do you know that building telescopes is any better than getting high on drugs?

—–“Yeah, but that presupposes we know what the pen is designed for. A pen with advertising on it (a common enough thing) that is kept in a writing drawer so that the advertising is seldom read by anyone new does not serve its primary purpose which is not writing but advertising. And serving more than one purpose is better than serving just a single purpose in my opinion.”

If it writes it is a good pen. If it promotes good will for the company whose name is on it, then it is also a good marketing tool, true enough. But the issue is, what makes it good? It is good if it does what it is made to do. That means its goodness, (or for humans, their standard of morality) must be determined by someone or something outside of it (or them).
What happens when we disagree?

—–“Any number of things. (How can we arbitrate among subjective notions of good). We can avoid each other, we can reach a peaceful mutually agreeable compromise, or we can go to war. History is replete with all three. The rule of law is an example of compromise.”

Yes, but most evil and groups will not allow us to avoid them. Perverts, religious and secular, have a way of imposing themselves and their values on others (misery loves company). They are notorious for wanting to remake the world in their own image and likeness. Suppose we do reach a mutually agreeable compromise with one such group while irreparably damaging a third party. Is that moral? Without appealing to some transcendent standard of justice, how do you know that the compromise is moral? If you do go to war, how do you know that the war is just? What principle are you protecting or preserving? Again, how do we establish a responsible “rule of law” without an appeal to the “natural moral law?” Sharia law and the Declaration of Independence both constitute rule by law. I submit that the latter is far more just than the former, and I base my judgment on the natural moral law. All “rules of law” are not created equal. How do you know the “good” ones from the “bad” ones?

Your argument is so full of holes I hardly know where to begin so I’ll just pick a couple bits of low hanging fruit:

That means that he is following the natural moral law and that he is pursuing the final end for which he was made, which is union with God.

First of all we have to agree that man was made for union with God. I don’t agree. I think man was made to fill the universe with life. No other animal builds telescopes that can locate suitable planets around other stars nor can any other animal build spacecraft that transport life to other planets. That is our mission in the grand scheme of things. Another point of contention arises when, even if we agree that union with God is what we were designed for, which God would that be? There is widespread disagreement on which God is the true God of course.

re; a pen used as can opener will ruin itself

Yeah, but that presupposes we know what the pen is designed for. A pen with advertising on it (a common enough thing) that is kept in a writing drawer so that the advertising is seldom read by anyone new does not serve its primary purpose which is not writing but advertising. And serving more than one purpose is better than serving just a single purpose in my opinion.

re; what happens when we disagree?

Any number of things. We can avoid each other, we can reach a peaceful mutually agreeable compromise, or we can go to war. History is replete with all three. The rule of law is an example of compromise.

Which moral code might that be? If it is a social contract, on what set of principles is it based? If one group establishes social contract A and another group establishes social contract B, how do you arbitrate between them when they come into conflict.

—-“Oh come on. We all have goals, aspirations, preferences, emotions, happiness, sadness etc. They’re arbitrary, personal standards. Yet they’re really the only thing that matters in the context of morality. There’s wiggle room in there, but it’s not complete subjectivity as people like to claim.”

So what happens if my personal standards militate against your personal standards? If there is no universal standard of morality, on what basis do we settle our differences? How can you say that I am not being “fair” if there is no such thing as a standard of justice that transcends our personal preferences?

—–“One thing I’d like to point out is that your definition of morality in post 47 talks about morality only affecting human in the universe, and how it affects god’s “purpose”. If that’s your stance, god can’t be described as good. God can only be described as mandating what’s good. What do “good intentions” mean at that point if he’s also making his purpose whatever he wants? You end up having to either talk about how the decisions affect us as humans, or make up some definition of meta-morality that’s above god.

A thing is good if it operates the way it was designed and intended to operate. A good can opener is one that opens cans. A good pen is one that writes. If someone tries to use a pen as a can opener, not only will he not open the can, he will ruin the pen. So, if a man pursues that for which is made, he is a good man or a moral man. That means that he is following the natural moral law and that he is pursuing the final end for which he was made, which is union with God. If he pursuing something for which he was not made, such as living like an animal, he will end up like the pen that tried to be a can opener. He will ruin himself.

Morality is a sort of social contract that we (as a race) have come up with in order to work together. It deals with how we interact with each other, so I don’t see how it’s not our place to figure it out. We need a sort of moral code to collectively be happier and succeed. That’s at the heart of just about any reasonable moral choice. It’s a solid basis from which to start the discussion of morality from.

“We can only judge “positive” and “negative” in the context of the “good.” To influence someone positively is to bring them closer to the good. To influence someone negatively is to take them away from the good. If there is no good, then the terms positive and negative are meaningless in a moral sense.”

Oh come on. We all have goals, aspirations, preferences, emotions, happiness, sadness etc. They’re arbitrary, personal standards. Yet they’re really the only thing that matters in the context of morality. There’s wiggle room in there, but it’s not complete subjectivity as people like to claim.

“The point is there is no morality unless there is a good toward which it aims. If a good God did not create a universe with good intentions, then there is no morality, since morality is the standard by which we pursue the good.”

One thing I’d like to point out is that your definition of morality in post 47 talks about morality only affecting human in the universe, and how it affects god’s “purpose”. If that’s your stance, god can’t be described as good. God can only be described as mandating what’s good. What do “good intentions” mean at that point if he’s also making his purpose whatever he wants? You end up having to either talk about how the decisions affect us as humans, or make up some definition of meta-morality that’s above god.

“What is it about love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself that is hard to understand? What is it about the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and the Beatitudes that elude the seeker of moral truth?”

Right, I must have missed the passage about transgender individuals using public accommodations.
You’re still completely ignoring the fact that so many people have been honestly seeking these moral truths yet can easily come up with wildly disagreeing conclusions. You almost have to claim that pretty much all of them were insincere or simply stupid/misguided. The former is highly cynical, and the latter makes those moral laws you mentioned extremely easy to distort and get wrong.

“In that case, one must study, reflect, and apply a moral conscience that has been grounded in those principles.”

It’s also starting to sound quite a bit like secular morality.

And since you brought up Christianity specifically, I’ll just point out killing, mysogeny (verse 34), murderous behavior of a prophet (verse 23), etc…

I would have preferred that such an objection had never been made, since it is an evasion, but since it was, I think it deserved an answer. Also, I would have preferred that you had read my previous posts to get a better context, the texture of which is that all of the worlds major religions contain some truth. The main point, however, has not changed. Without God, there can be no morality, because all morality points to the good, which is God himself. If God isn’t good, then there can be no morality. That point, it seems to me, is unassailable. My forays into Christianity, which are very few, are always prompted by challenges that demand a reference to it. Orherwise, I leave it alone.

The point is there is no morality unless there is a good toward which it aims. If a good God did not create a universe with good intentions, then there is no morality, since morality is the standard by which we pursue the good. In either case, man cannot come up with it on his own, because the good is not of his making.

—–“Ultimately what good and bad comes down to is if we affect each other positively or negatively. This isn’t completely objective either (especially when more than one person is involved), but it’s not just “because god wanted me for some arbitrary ‘purpose’”.

We can only judge “positive” and “negative” in the context of the “good.” To influence someone positively is to bring them closer to the good. To influence someone negatively is to take them away from the good. If there is no good, then the terms positive and negative are meaningless in a moral sense.

—–“If god wanted us to act in certain ways, it’s hard to disagree that he’s done quite a horrible job of getting that message across. While we generally have an ok moral intuition, we’re still torn on a wide array of moral questions.”

What is it about love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself that is hard to understand? What is it about the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and the Beatitudes that elude the seeker of moral truth?

—–“And the fact that religious groups have done and do immoral acts while claiming god’s approval makes it even worse. God never steps in directly and disagrees with that.

Why does a failure to follow a moral principle delegitimize that principle?

—–“I know that you can argue that he(it?) did with Jesus, Muhammad, or whoever, and I don’t want this to degrade into arguing about those specific cases. But there are so many cases where BOTH sides of an argument boast god’s approval. There are Christian groups supporting and opposing gay rights. There are religious groups supporting and opposing al-Qaeda.”

Sometimes the application of moral principles can be much more complicated than the principle itself. In that case, one must study, reflect, and apply a moral conscience that has been grounded in those principles. It is remarkable how often enthusiastic supporters of various causes study, reflect, and act without having formed their conscience.

—–“God never steps in clarifying his purpose to clear this up. At best, he(it?) makes us sift through a number of holy books, along with the wide variety of interpretations of the literal/figurative stances on them for any answer. If there’s even anything in there that hints at the question at hand. And even then we’re only dealing with god’s purpose, which could be any old thing he(it?) wants it to be.”

Truth is not that hard to find; it is hard to face; harder yet to follow. Only one serious moral leader ever claimed to be God.

Even if a god did create the universe and had a purpose for it, that still doesn’t make that purpose “right” in any objective sense. We can easily imagine a god that creates a universe for the sole purpose of making it’s inhabitants miserable (hell?). Then god could make killing kittens and genocide “good”. But this doesn’t make it good in any objective sense. It just makes it what god wants.

Ultimately what good and bad comes down to is if we affect each other positively or negatively. This isn’t completely objective either (especially when more than one person is involved), but it’s not just “because god wanted me for some arbitrary ‘purpose’”.

If god wanted us to act in certain ways, it’s hard to disagree that he’s done quite a horrible job of getting that message across. While we generally have an ok moral intuition, we’re still torn on a wide array of moral questions.

And the fact that religious groups have done and do immoral acts while claiming god’s approval makes it even worse. God never steps in directly and disagrees with that.

I know that you can argue that he(it?) did with Jesus, Muhammad, or whoever, and I don’t want this to degrade into arguing about those specific cases. But there are so many cases where BOTH sides of an argument boast god’s approval. There are Christian groups supporting and opposing gay rights. There are religious groups supporting and opposing al-Qaeda.

God never steps in clarifying his purpose to clear this up. At best, he(it?) makes us sift through a number of holy books, along with the wide variety of interpretations of the literal/figurative stances on them for any answer. If there’s even anything in there that hints at the question at hand. And even then we’re only dealing with god’s purpose, which could be any old thing he(it?) wants it to be.

-fdsa out

How can the governor of a state “where men are [usually] men and sheep are nervous” turn a blind eye to such injustice?