No sound reason to incorporate evolution theory into faith

_{Denyse O'Leary

May 11, 2014

Christian Darwinism, News}

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Further to “Adam and Eve and Bryan College: BioLogos strikes”: Dusting off this piece from late 2012: “Top Five Myths Christians (and Non-Christians) Often Believe About Intelligent Design”

MYTH #1: Intelligent Design (ID) is just a fancy name for Creationism.

The true story: Intelligent Design theory is not a form of, nor is it synonymous with “creationism.” Rather, it is an over-arching scientific theory that disputes wholly naturalistic/materialistic accounts of the origin of the universe and the origin of life. As such it is an indispensable ally for those who espouse various creation models. ID makes NO CLAIM about the age of the earth.

Stuff to know:

The current theory of evolution, mandated for schools in many places (Darwin’s theory that natural selection acting on random genetic mutations, creates complex structures like the human brain) does not work no matter what age we posit for Earth or the universe unless …

… unless we posit that the universe is infinitely old. But there are reasons based on logic for believing that that cannot be true. So most likely it just isn’t.

The National Academy of Sciences recently dropped support for “evolution” as one of its tests for science literacy. Factors like these surely played a role. Many people in science are willing to feel flummoxed but wish to avoid sounding ridiculous to themselves. And it doesn’t look so good when the peoplewho know the most have the greatest doubts.

The main thing to know is, the science just isn’t working out the way people thought.

Not in cosmology, not in origin of life, not in human evolution. Any time you meet someone who tells you how you can reorganize your faith to accommodate the latest findings, be polite but move on.

And whatever we are on the verge of, BioLogos is on the verge of 1975 or something.

Comments

Yes, I completely agree. And mathematics often goes way beyond any material application. Non-Euclidean geometry comes to mind. And then there's everything that makes our actions significant: integrity, love, beauty, and so on. Where did they come from? How do you measure them? -QQuerius_{May 13, 2014
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of interest: An Interview with David Berlinski - Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time …. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.htmlbornagain77_{May 12, 2014
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Bornagain77, Again, interesting points.
Querius if materialism cannot account for everything then it is false as a worldview, i.e. as a basis for reality.
Yes, and that's true of all our worldviews. When Pilatus asked Yeshua Ha'Nazaret, "What is truth," He could have responded with "I Am the truth." And when Rabbi Shaul/Paulus wrote to the church in Corinth, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known," he acknowledged the inadequacy of our knowledge and our need to trust God and His love for us. The way I look at it is by predominant domain. Consider Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorums. They don't invalidate mathematics, they just prove that no single system of mathematics can lead to all true statements. Analogously, Chaos theory doesn't invalidate predictable events, but demonstrates the volatility of initial conditions stemming from a fine granularity that ultimately extends into our macro domain. Hence, a butterfly in Tokyo really, truly can be responsible for a storm in Chicago. And we absolutely cannot predict which butterfly, but if I ever find it . . . Together, these two utterly destroy materialism as a method for excluding non-material interaction, for example the existence and possible intervention of God. Anyway, that's my admittedly fallible and incomplete perspective. -QQuerius_{May 12, 2014
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Querius, that materialism is false is perhaps most easily demonstrated by the fact that matter and energy both reduce to a information basis:
Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts New Breakthrough in (Quantum) Teleportation - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqZI31udJg Quote from preceding video: "There are 10^28 atoms in the human body.,, The amount of data contained in the whole human,, is 3.02 x 10^32 gigabytes of information. Using a high bandwidth transfer that data would take about 4.5 x 10^18 years to teleport 1 time. That is 350,000 times the age of the universe." Physicists set new record for quantum teleportation with matter qubits - Apr 16, 2013 Excerpt: "The greatest significance of our work is the dramatic increase in efficiency compared to previous realizations of matter-matter teleportation," Nölleke said. "Besides, it is the first demonstration of matter-matter teleportation between truly independent systems and constitutes the current record in distance of 21 m. The previous record was 1 m." http://phys.org/news/2013-04-physicists-quantum-teleportation-qubits.html How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,” http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862 Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/content/282/5389/706.abstract
That matter/energy both reduce to an information basis, and that information does not reduce to a material basis, is a direct falsification of a primary materialistic prediction. Thus materialism is false. This was done within the scientific method. Thus when you say that,,,
what was falsified was materialism excluding the existence of anything else
,,, it reveals that you don't appreciate the depth to which materialism was undermined as a worldview.
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett’s Inequality: Verified to 80 orders of magnitude) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
Here are a few more notes on the failed predictions of materialism within the scientific method:
1. Naturalism/Materialism predicted time-space energy-matter always existed. Whereas Theism predicted time-space energy-matter were created. Big Bang cosmology now strongly indicates that time-space energy-matter had a sudden creation event approximately 14 billion years ago. 2. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the universe is a self sustaining system that is not dependent on anything else for its continued existence. Theism predicted that God upholds this universe in its continued existence. Breakthroughs in quantum mechanics reveal that this universe is dependent on a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence. 3. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that consciousness is a ‘emergent property’ of material reality and thus should have no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicts consciousness precedes material reality and therefore, on that presupposition, consciousness should have a ‘special’ position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. - 4. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe. Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time. – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9) - 5. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and that life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind. Scientists find the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. Moreover it is found, when scrutinizing the details of chemistry, that not only is the universe fine-tuned for carbon based life, but is specifically fine-tuned for life like human life (M. Denton).- 6. Naturalism/Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe. Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex organic life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe (Gonzalez). - 7. Naturalism/Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11). Geo-chemical evidence from the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth indicates that complex photo-synthetic life has existed on earth as long as water has been on the face of earth. - 8. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the first life to be relatively simple. Theism predicted that God is the source for all life on earth. The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 9. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse animal life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas. - 10. Naturalism/Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record. Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 11. Naturalism/Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man (our genus ‘modern homo’ as distinct from the highly controversial ‘early homo’) is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. (Tattersall; Luskin)– 12. Naturalism/Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”. - 13. Naturalism/Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 14. Naturalism/Materialism predicted morality is subjective and illusory. Theism predicted morality is objective and real. Morality is found to be deeply embedded in the genetic responses of humans. As well, morality is found to be deeply embedded in the structure of the universe. Embedded to the point of eliciting physiological responses in humans before humans become aware of the morally troubling situation and even prior to the event even happening. 15. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’ (cannot be created or destroyed) ‘non-local’, beyond space-time matter-energy, quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale.
bornagain77_{May 12, 2014
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Querius if materialism cannot account for everything then it is false as a worldview, i.e. as a basis for reality.
materialism holds that all things are composed of material, and that all emergent phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material properties and interactions. In other words, the theory claims that our reality consists entirely of physical matter that is the sole cause of every possible occurrence, including human thought, feeling, and action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism
bornagain77_{May 12, 2014
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bornagain77,
my point was simply that if the scientific method was indeed limited by materialism then materialism should never have been falsified by it.
Interesting point. In my opinion, what was falsified was materialism excluding the existence of anything else. Maybe I should have worded it that science is limited to the material, observable, and measurable domain of existence. Quantum mechanics, exposes phenomena on the edge between our material domain and the non-material. Specifically, that conscious observation can affect quantum behavior. But, I wonder whether the reverse could also be true? Can material events affect the non-material?
And Jesus said, "Who is the one who touched Me?" And while they were all denying it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing in on You. But Jesus said, “Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me." - Luke 8:45-46 NASV
I think Ansel Adams once said something like, "everything interesting happens at the edges." Thanks for the link to the paper. I'm going to need to spend some time studying it. -QQuerius_{May 11, 2014
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Querius, you may be interested in this paper I just found: Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern: six experiments - Radin - 2012 Abstract: A double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wavefunction. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double-slit spectral power to its single-slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. Each test session consisted of 40 counterbalanced attention-toward and attention-away epochs, where each epoch lasted between 15 and 30 s(seconds). Data contributed by 137 people in six experiments, involving a total of 250 test sessions, indicate that on average the spectral ratio decreased as predicted (z = -4:36, p = 6·10^-6). Another 250 control sessions conducted without observers present tested hardware, software, and analytical procedures for potential artifacts; none were identified (z = 0:43, p = 0:67). Variables including temperature, vibration, and signal drift were also tested, and no spurious influences were identified. By contrast, factors associated with consciousness, such as meditation experience, electrocortical markers of focused attention, and psychological factors including openness and absorption, significantly correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double-slit interference pattern. The results appear to be consistent with a consciousness-related interpretation of the quantum measurement problem. http://www.deanradin.com/papers/Physics%20Essays%20Radin%20final.pdfbornagain77_{May 11, 2014
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Which is all fine and well Querius, but my point was simply that if the scientific method was indeed limited by materialism then materialism should never have been falsified by it.bornagain77_{May 11, 2014
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bornagain77,
It seems someone forgot to communicate the ‘materialistic limitations of the scientific method’ to the field of quantum mechanics:
Actually, I think QM is an excellent example of the materialistic limitations of science. We can fire specific numbers of photons and electrons at paired slits of a specified width and separation, and we can observe and record the effects. What we can't do is account for the reason that the act of recording an observation changes the outcome. We don't even know whether a terrified Schroedinger's cat trapped in a box can keep itself alive by staring intently at the image of a single isotope, thereby preventing its decay (Quantum Zeno Effect), nor can we directly measure consciousness. Imagine this: "The consciousness of college students listening to a lecture typically fluctuates between 11.2 and 11.5 ds (Descartes), however when in the lab, it rises to 14.9 ds and on a date, up to 16.1 ds. Administrators were measured at only about 8.8 ds, although these figures have been challenged for using a small sample size, and timed right after lunch." ;-) -QQuerius_{May 11, 2014
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Querius when you state:
"This is due to the materialistic limitations of the scientific method"
It seems someone forgot to communicate the 'materialistic limitations of the scientific method' to the field of quantum mechanics:
"It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality" - Eugene Wigner - (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 - received Nobel Prize in 1963 for 'Quantum Symmetries' Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939 "Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel" John A. Wheeler Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - video http://vimeo.com/38508798 The Experiment That Debunked Materialism - video - (delayed choice quantum eraser) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKUass7G8w "It begins to look as we ourselves, by our last minute decision, have an influence on what a photon will do when it has already accomplished most of its doing... we have to say that we ourselves have an undeniable part in what we have always called the past. The past is not really the past until is has been registered. Or to put it another way, the past has no meaning or existence unless it exists as a record in the present." - John Wheeler - The Ghost In The Atom - Page 66-68 Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained - 2014 video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4 The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf Quantum Physics – (material reality does not exist until we look at it) – Dr. Quantum video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ezNvpFcJU Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables - Scott Aaronson Excerpt: "Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!" http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.html A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it? - 2008 Excerpt: In mid-2007 Fedrizzi found that the new realism model was violated by 80 orders of magnitude; the group was even more assured that quantum mechanics was correct. Leggett agrees with Zeilinger that realism is wrong in quantum mechanics, but when I asked him whether he now believes in the theory, he answered only “no” before demurring, “I’m in a small minority with that point of view and I wouldn’t stake my life on it.” For Leggett there are still enough loopholes to disbelieve. I asked him what could finally change his mind about quantum mechanics. Without hesitation, he said sending humans into space as detectors to test the theory.,,, (to which Anton Zeilinger responded) When I mentioned this to Prof. Zeilinger he said, “That will happen someday. There is no doubt in my mind. It is just a question of technology.” Alessandro Fedrizzi had already shown me a prototype of a realism experiment he is hoping to send up in a satellite. It’s a heavy, metallic slab the size of a dinner plate. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P3/ Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality: Verified to 80 orders of magnitude) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
bornagain77_{May 11, 2014
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In my opinion, ID is no more faith-based than even the less-goofy parts of the Theory of Evolution. While ID is more or less compatible with Creationism, the presumption of design does not mandate a belief in any specific intelligence. This is due to the materialistic limitations of the scientific method, especially in the hard sciences. For example, the transcultural, physiological effects of color has been studied extensively, but science cannot determine what is considered great art. (Alternatively, science can deny or deprecate the existence of great art, music, literature, dance, theater, film, the culinary arts, gardening, and so on---and what a dreary world that would be!) In philosophy, law, and religion, one can study the results of world views on individuals and societies, but there are no instruments to study God, especially if God doesn't want to be found that way. Even the forensic nature of the study of biological history as discussed in other posts results in greater and lesser likelihoods, especially when the data is unfiltered by conscious or unconscious bias, and no attempt is made to force fit the results into the most current evolutionary paradigm. Conversely, it's a mistake to syncretize the latest scientific conclusions into one's philosophy or religious beliefs, since scientific knowledge changes continually, and has been accelerating in modern times. For (an admittedly silly) example, what happens when someone integrates the ten Solar planets with the theology of the ten commandments and then finds out that there are currently thirteen? Trivia question: What is the total number of natural satellites orbiting the eight major planets? See http://www.windows2universe.org/our_solar_system/moons_table.html -QQuerius_{May 11, 2014
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corrected link: The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency – Dr David L. Abel – November 2010 http://www.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness.htmlbornagain77_{May 11, 2014
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as to:
No sound reason to incorporate evolution theory into faith
But without any empirical support that material processes can create non-trivial functional information, evolution theory is, in reality, the 'faith' position. Whereas ID has abundant evidence that Intelligence can and does routinely create non-trivial levels of functional information. Stephen Meyer - The Scientific Basis Of Intelligent Design - video https://vimeo.com/32148403 The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www-qa.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" Frank Turekbornagain77_{May 11, 2014
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